Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Sahaja Yoga International

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was Looking at all the arguments / checks myself Delete. Tawker 17:07, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Sahaja Yoga International

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Non-notable cult, does not pass WP:CORP. Fewer than 1000 Google hits, and no references from credible sources. --NovaSTL 06:57, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

Note: Google search for "Sahaja Yoga International": 82,800 hits. [1] Sfacets 03:53, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

Only if you search for any site that contains the words "Sahaja", "Yoga", and "International". When you search on the actual name of the organization, "Sahaja Yoga International", it's fewer than 1,000 [2]. --NovaSTL 08:44, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

Note: "Vishwa Nirmala Dharma" - 14,600 Hits.

• Sahaja Yoga is NOT a cult --Sahajhist 17:39, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

Regardless of what it is, is it notable? -Will Beback 07:43, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

According to Dr. Michael Langone, editor of Cultic Studies Journal, Sahaja Yoga is a cult, it is preoccupied with money, the group has an "us v. them" mentality, and techniques are used and encouraged to suppress doubt about the group or its members. [3] (see the section on "Issues and Controversies). My own concern is that many of these mis-information techniques seem to be being used on Wikipedia, as members of this group appear to be creating articles here to promote the group and its activities. --NovaSTL 23:26, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

So based on your one source, you brand your POV onto the organisation? Again, how does Sahaja Yoga International aim at promoting the goup? And here I was, certain that your concern was that the article didn't fit Wikipedia guidelines (which was the reason you gave when you nominated this article. Your edits show that since your account creation four days ago you have actively prevented sources from being added to the article, in particular any sources that could identify SYI as an organisation independant from Sahaja Yoga meditation. Your edits are obviously being used to push your own POV (expressed above) and aim at the removal of the article which you placed up for deletion. The fact that you do not reveal your Sockpuppeteer account name casts further doubt on your position in this matter. Sfacets 23:35, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

I think we've already gone over this, but to repeat: I have no bias in this matter. I am not a sockpuppet of anyone involved in this discussion, as I have already explained here (though considering the number of pro-SYI sockpuppets and meatpuppets that have been trotted in, I actually find that charge fairly ironic). Anyone interested in reviewing my contribution history for themselves is welcome to do so, and if the closing admin has any genuine concerns, I am happy to verify my identity in private email. As for "preventing sources", that's an absurd claim, as I would actually welcome anything which would prove that SYI had independent notability. See Talk:Sahaja Yoga International for details. In short, I'm not trying to attack SYI, I am simply trying to prevent the creation of poorly-sourced vanity articles on Wikipedia. At this point, my recommendation is that any relevant information from the Sahaja Yoga International article be merged into the article at Sahaja Yoga, and then the SYI name can be set up as a redirect. --NovaSTL 00:18, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

Well so far you have attacked the organisation by refering to it as a Cult, by ravaging the article - removing sources attempting to prove SYI is in fact a Worldwide organisation [4] placing your own without prior discussion (despite the long discussion mentionned in the previous edit)[5], removing claims without waiting for forthcoming souces (so instead of using a {{fact}} tag for example). All this seems to indicate bias, if not against the organisation, then at least in regards to this afd. You are altering the article to suit your interests, in this case winning this afd proposal. It shows bad faith that you would hide your Sockpuppeteer identity from the rest of us, even if your other Sockpuppet(s) were not engaged in this discussion. As for the assumed 'Meatpuppets', I'm sure many of them have contributed to articles anonymously over the years, just because they are required to create a User account to be able to have their say doesn't make their arguments (when given) less valid. Sfacets 00:52, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

• Delete per nom. MER-C 08:00, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
• Delete religioncruft. Danny Lilithborne 08:10, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
• Delete Seems to be a small religious movement/cult that practises this. It fails WP:CORP and without reliable sources of information this article will forever be a conflict of interest/spam/POV magnet. The above comment by Sahajhist is testament to this. -- IslaySolomon 09:44, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
• Redirect To the above-mentioned link. Michael Billington (talk • contribs) 11:19, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
• Sahaja Yoga is NOT a cult and is merely brandeed one by memebrs who have been asked to leave or people who have not expeirinced sahaja yoga —Preceding unsigned comment added by Marathigt (talk • contribs)
  • — Possible single purpose account: Marathigt (talk • contribs) has made few or no other contributions outside this topic.
• Keep as a stub or move to Vishwa Nirmala Dharma (currently a redirect). -- The guru (and I think founder) of the organisation, Nirmala Srivastava has had significant press coverage, either keep or merge into Nirmala Srivastava article -- Paul foord 13:08, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Note the alternative name Vishwa Nirmala Dharma (currently a redirect) has "about 15,200" hits.
• Keep or merge to Sahaja Yoga. As far as I know the practice and the organization are closely related and the term "Sahaja Yoga" (306,000 ghits) may refer to either or both. --KFP (talk | contribs) 14:59, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

• Keep - Sahaja Yoga practicioners are counted in their hundreds of thousands. You can go anywhere in India and people will know about it. Non-notable? It has appeared in many leading newspapers. Sahaja Yoga international differs from Sahaja Yoga in that it is a registered NGO whereas Sahaja Yoga is a form of meditation. Nirmala Srivastava has had considerable press coverage both because of the NGO side of SY as well as the spiritual/meditational. Sahaja Yoga is a registered organisation and NGO in quite a few countries. Calling a spiritual practice a cult is POV. And besides, if you consider SY a cult (as is your right) - it shouldn't be a reason for exclusion. note:I strongly suspect bias in this AFD proposal - why is User:NovaSTL, a user who signed up a day ago nominating an article for deletion? [[6]] Sfacets 20:27, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Nope, not a biased nom. I'd never heard of this organization until yesterday when I was on newpage patrol, and ran across Vishwa Nirmal Prem Ashram, which appeared to be spam, so I tagged it with {{db-spam}}. The tag was removed with a rude comment, so I proceeded to a prod, which was also removed [7], so the next step was AfD. Rather than submitting just that article though, I decided to proceed to the "root" article, which is this one, which also appears (in my opinion) to be spam. Now let me be clear that the practice of Sahaja Yoga appears notable, but the organization known as "Sahaja Yoga International" does not. This article also appears to be a hub for multiple other non-notable entities, such as Vishwa Nirmal Prem Ashram and International Sahaja Public School, other spam articles (go read it, you'll see what I mean). These all appear to have been created in an ongoing campaign to use Wikipedia to create articles on these peripheral activities, even though they are not independently notable. The articles should therefore either be deleted, or merged into the article about Sahaja Yoga. --NovaSTL 23:40, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
    • The article is a stub, having been created just a few days ago. Editors haven't even had time to add content to it. How have you determined that it was spam? Your edits are counterproductive. Sfacets 06:46, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

• Comment. I fail to see how a religious organisation with an attached hospital and ICSE school and with a notable founder is less notable than, say, the average parish church that gets on, or, for example, the Federation of Damanhur. Consider also the Brahma Kumaris. Unless someone can point this out, consider this a vote to keep.Hornplease 01:16, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
  • The Federation of Damanhur has been the subject of two books that look to be credible sources. The Brahma Kumaris article also has an extensive bibliography. However, the SYI article has no sources except its own websites, and other non-credible sources. --NovaSTL 03:17, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
    • Valid sources have been added. Sfacets 06:36, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

• Keep - From the comments presented here, and considering the articles already present on various other faith-based spiritual movements, I cannot detect an actual problem with having this separate Wikipedia entry, nor any separate entry pertaining to Sahaja Yoga for that matter. To enable citing sources, particulars for Wiki precedents and/or Wiki accepted definitions and criteria for ‘reputable sources of information’ and ‘credible sources’ are required as these relate to the highly personal subject of spirituality (spirituality is subjective by nature). The comment referencing ‘religioncruft’ infers unfamiliarity with the subject, and as for ‘non-notable,’ Sahaja Yoga International is well-known in many circles of society, Sahaja Yoga being unique, therefore completely differentiated from every other sort of meditation technique. Generally speaking, the society of Sahaja Yoga International is a branch of the not-for-profit grass-roots, non-hierarchical Sahaja Yoga movement carrying out many international activities such as NGOs, charitable projects, non-commercial educational and social community services, duly registered active SY societies and SY charities around the world, and significant documented medical research on the many varied and widely recognized benefits of the Sahaja Yoga technique. As such, it should not be considered for deletion. Ewarrior21 03:19, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

Above post is the first-ever comment by Ewarrior21 (talk · contribs), who has no other edits. --NovaSTL 03:36, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

NovaSTL- How many edits have you made on wikipedia in the last two days since you signed up? You should know that according to Wikipedia:Spam an NGO-related, not-for-profit establishment doesn't qualify as spam, as you marked it. (Vishwa Nirmal Prem Ashram). According to your comments above this afd does in fact seem to be a reaction to other contributor's edits, and therefore biased. Mentions of SYI as an NGO appear frequently in media, such as the Times of India, the Indian Express, there is medical research documentation done in connection with the hospital in Mumbai... there are plenty of sources. Feel free to add htem to the article. Sfacets 04:55, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

Comment. There may be sources available, but we are not free to add them, as some users appear to be exerting ownership of the articles.[8][9][10][11][12][13] -Will Beback 21:18, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

I believe NovaSTL was asking for 'Valid Sources' - something that wasn't established in this case. See Talk:Sahaja YogaSfacets 03:50, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

Actually, that link to "Religion facts" from the University of Virginia looks like a credible source[14]. In my opinion, it should not have been removed. --NovaSTL 08:44, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

I believe that you are unaware of the recent additions to WP:CSD concerning what is defined as spam. For more information, please read: Wikipedia:Wikipedia Signpost/2006-10-02/More CSD. In any case, if you believe that there are references which assert this topic's notability, by all means, please add them to the article. Without such sources, I stand by my opinion that this article does not make an adequate case for the notability of its subject, but instead is written in a self-promotional manner, and is almost certainly in violation of WP:AUTO (please note that the primary editor on the Sahaja Yoga International article is Sahajhist (talk · contribs), who is obviously associated with the topic).

Instead of attacking me, I think that your energy would be better spent on addressing the obvious WP:AUTO problems with this article and the related self-promotional sub-articles, instead of fighting the attempts to request citations, as you have been doing in the past . For example, when someone added a {{fact}} tag, and you removed it, saying "not needed here."[15] --NovaSTL 06:17, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

I wasn't attacking you, I was remarking on the fact that either you are a sockpuppet or a newly signed up member, and have already placed an afd. A fact you seem to be avoiding. How is removing 1 (one!) request for citation "fighting the attempts to request citations"? As I have been doing in the past? What, with my one tag removal? The tag in question wasn't required there (in my opinion) since the sentence was self-explanatory. The removal wasn't contested. But why am I justifying my old edits to you? according to the link you posted above: "Pages that exist only to promote a company, person, product, service or group." The template {{Db-spam}} can be used on pages that fit the definition". In what way do you feel an NGO project that affects hundreds of people and is well know in that part of India exists only to promote itself? Also note that it is a stub, having been created 3 days ago, so sources haven't even had the time to be included. Sfacets 06:43, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

First, your removal of that {{fact}} tag most definitely was contested, with the very next edit [16], followed by back and forth reverts, and finally the questionable statement's eventual removal. Next: My own account's status can be clearly determined by taking a moment to read my userpage. As is stated there, the primary purpose of this account is new page patrolling, as part of which I have nominated several articles for deletion, usually without much controversy (for example, see Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Corki's Corner). For other pages I have nominated for deletion, via WP:CSD, Prod, and AfD, you and anyone else are welcome to review my contribution history to see that I have not been specifically targeting this article. I am most definitely not a sockpuppet of anyone else involved in this debate, and I have no bias for or against articles about yoga. I do, however, have a bias against poorly-sourced self-promotional articles. If you truly believe that this subject is notable enough for its own Wikipedia article, then, per WP:V, please provide sources which prove this. It's not about saying that something is well-known in India -- you have to provide sources which prove this. Please review WP:CORP. --NovaSTL 08:07, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

• Comment. Though there seem to be several new references that have been added to the article, it seems that most of them are either to personal/promotional websites, or are to sources that talk about the practice of Sahaja Yoga itself, but are not about the actual "SYI" organization. As such, I believe this re-emphasizes the fact that SYI is not independently notable, and that this article should be merged into the article on Sahaja Yoga. --NovaSTL 22:44, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

I have added more sources on the VND/SYI Organisation, looking up more references for Organisational status in various countries. Sfacets 03:50, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

• sahaja yoga is NOT a cult....there are thousands of peoples who are physically, mentally, emotionally and even spritually benefited by sahaja yoga... their health is improved, their way of thinking is changed(positive changes)..so what else you want from sahaja...if you want to make money out of it..sorry to say we are non-profit orgainzation...adeshjoshi.. those who dont want to believe, follow sahaja..its ok..no arguments...but they are not supposed to talk against sahaja without any reasons... !!! adeshjoshi...—Preceding unsigned comment added by Adeshjoshi (talk • contribs) 22:15, 15 October 2006
  • Note: Account's only use has been to participate in this deletion discussion
• Please do not delete this useful piece on a movement for inner spiritual growth and liberation that has many thousands of adherents from all walks of life. This is not some barmy cult that grabs money from the unsuspecting and gullible seekers. It is a path that works and gives great joy and peaceful direction to life, and if there are those who have suffered because they were asked kindly to leave the movement, because they had done something extremely unkind or not in keeping with normal decent behaviour, want this page removed it would be a great shame and a very backward step. We accept anybody who asks for their self-realisation, and so there will always be discontented people who could not 'make it'.Very few indeed have been asked to leave or have left because they were unsatisfied. Why should this deprive others of the opportunity to experience the possibilities of self realisation? I have followed this wonderful path for 27 years and my life has been miraculously blessed, and those of my wife and children too. Kingsley Flint —Preceding unsigned comment added by 222.165.175.230 (talk • contribs) 22:32, 15 October 2006
  • Note: Account's only use has been to participate in this deletion discussion
• => Donot delete this as I know Wikipedia is a open site for giving useful information to all. This page seems to be correct and useful in all regards as far as I know. I know many of my friends and they all have benefitted from this simple meditation technique. The most important point I have noticed is that they do not charge you a single pie. What I feel personally is that the persons who are asking for deleting are those who are at least aware of Sahajyoga. It is something like this that you go to Swimming Pool and by someone's mistake if one drowns then you say close all swimming pools. They might have tried to use it for their personal needs or some ego hassles with some local Sahajayoga persons. So I feel it is just some human reaction which seems to be very natural. But Sahajyoga as a whole as i have seen is quite beneficial, so no point in delting it. Yes you can verify the facts from independent agencies. I know thay have an NGO for Destitute Women in India and one Hospital also in Mumbai. So seems to be good organization. - Rajesh —Preceding unsigned comment added by Rajeshhwr (talk • contribs) 23:36, 15 October 2006
  • Note: Account's only use has been to participate in this deletion discussion
• Donot delete this article.Sahaja yoga isthe only organization in the world through which you can get your self- realization and feel vibrations.It is widely prcaticed in many countries and lot of people are interested in it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Avinash82 (talk • contribs) 02:55, 16 October 2006)
  • Note: Account's only use has been to participate in this deletion discussion
• Keep or merge to Sahaja Yoga. It seems to me that the problems that NovaSTL has with this site are being rectified. People are adding in citations but these things take time. Primarily I would like to point out that Sahaja Yoga International is a worldwide organisation that is a registered charity hence it does not fall under the definition of a company or corporation. The practice of Sahaja Yoga gives thousands of individuals a means to connect with themselves. There are numerous cases of individuals who have practiced this form of meditation and have found improvement from conditions such as ADHD, (see link to published papers). The stabalizing benefit of Sahaja Yoga meditation is the reason that it is being offered in many prisons around the world with positive outcomes. What proof do you require if not verification from links to external sites telling you about the individual organisation activities ie the music school in India and the internation school, links to newspapers articles discussing the merits of Sahaj Yoga in reference to drug abuse recovery and also regarding studies on Sahaja Yoga meditation carried out by a well know Australian hospital? Willia 09:37, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • — Possible single purpose account: Willia (talk • contribs) has made few or no other contributions outside this topic.
• Do Not Delete This article should not be deleted. The alternative name "Vishwa Nirmala Dharma" has ~15,000 hits on Google and provides ample background information and evident proof that such organization exists in multiple countries and has positive impact on everyday lives of the practitioners. There is also a significant amount of press coverage around the globe which is slowly added to provide more evidence. Also note that "Sahaja Yoga International" is an official name of the organization which denotes the international nature of it and is not frequently used. If you search for "sahaja yoga meditation" on Google you get ~28,000 hits. So the argument is of technical nature and has no basis. If you search for "International Business Machines" which is the full name for IBM, you will get 48 million hits versus 348 for IBM because the abbreviated name is used much more frequently. Denism 18:30, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • — Possible single purpose account: Denism (talk • contribs) has made few or no other contributions outside this topic.
• To believe and claim that Sahaja yoga is a cult is the same like to believe all the rest of religious chuches and organizations are all fake cults.Despite that SY is helpfull for thousands more than the few ex-practicioners needed an anger managment because they didn't felt SY inside. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 05:18 16 October 2006 (talk • contribs) Georgi svet
  • — Possible single purpose account: Georgi svet (talk • contribs) has made few or no other contributions outside this topic.
• DO NOT DELETE Sahaja Yoga is a teaching of Her Holiness Shri Mataji Nirmala Devi based on the ancient knowledge of the traditional Indian yoga which is described in the Vedas and Upanishads. The new in Sahaja Yoga is the awakening of the energy Kundalini on mass level. The word yoga is a Sanskrit word and means union or connection. Yoga is the union of our individual energy Kundalini with the all-pervading energy of the Universe - Paramachaytaniya. For many thousands of years spiritual seekers were trying to raise this energy but only a few could achieve it. The unique contribution of H.H. Shri Mataji Nirmala Devi is that She could help the spiritual seekers in their quest for truth and awaken some strings of their Kundalini. Now a days thousands of people from all over the world are practicing Sahaja Yoga meditation and experience on daily bases it's tremendous benefits. Sahaja Yoga is one of the most practical systems of self-knowledge and self-improvement. That's why it is funny, even pity if some people try to present it as a cult. The only way to understand where is the truth is to experience it. Please visit [ http://www.sahajayoga.org] and get your self-realization online. E blagoeva 16:55, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • — Possible single purpose account: E blagoeva (talk • contribs) has made few or no other contributions outside this topic.
• PLEASE DO NOT DELETE. Before doing Sahaja Yoga, I too was of the belief that many a cults and faiths are surrounding the humanity and none of them have anything inside. This assumption kept me away from Sahaja Yoga for a long time...until one day I said to myself, "Why Don't I try it?". And when I tried it, I felt the cool breeze in no time and effortlessly achieved the thoughtless aware state. 1. This state has been well defined in different words in different holy scriptures of ancient religions of the world. 2. This is a distinct experience and NOT a matter of faith. 3. The continued practice of Sahaja Yoga has actually, NOT Assumptiously, brought much improvement in my health and personality. 4. As I have seen, almost 80% of people can have experience of this kind in first sitting itself. 5. No money is ever charged for doing Sahaja Yoga. 6. It is voluntary. 7. There is no membership of Sahaja Yoga. 8. It has high potential benefit for the humanity as a whole. 9. No loss of any kind can be envisaged for anyone trying or doing it. 10. No real or potential harm is caused to society. I request all the dear brothers and sisters of the world not to discard Sahaja Yoga as a cult. It is a happening thing...not just faith. Thank You Delpraveen 17:39, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • — Possible single purpose account: Delpraveen (talk • contribs) has made few or no other contributions outside this topic.
• Keep Apart from the controversial areas, I believe Sahaja Yoga has an organizational aspect which deals with the facilitation of needs of yogis. VND (Vishwa Nirmala Dharma) functions on national levels, but for international projects, I have seen the increasing use of Sahaja Yoga International as a term. There are many projects in joint collaboration with non-affiliated entities having presence in multiple countries which has prompted the use of this term (SYI).havanhelper
  • — Possible single purpose account: Ruthvickd (talk • contribs) has made few or no other contributions outside this topic.

The Argument for afd was tat the article didn't pass WP:CORP. According to WP:Corp,

A club, society, or organization is notable if it meets any of the following criteria:

1. The club, society, or organization has been the subject of multiple non-trivial published works whose source is independent of the club, society, or organization itself.

• This criterion includes published works in all forms, such as newspaper articles, books, television documentaries, and published reports by consumer watchdog organizations6 except for the following:
• Media reprints of press releases, other publications where the club or organization talks about itself, and advertising for the club, society, or organization. 1
• Works carrying merely trivial coverage, such as newspaper articles that simply announce forthcoming club meetings or the publications of telephone numbers and addresses in directories.