Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Saginaw, Alabama

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep Saginaw, Alabama and delete List of mayors of Saginaw, Alabama. -- Black Falcon (Talk) 06:12, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

Closer's note: The article Saginaw, Alabama was completely rewritten by User:Dhaluza on June 16 (see diff). All recommendations for deleting the article were made prior to the rewrite and addressed the "hoaxy" nature of the pre-rewrite versions. In addition, most editors recommending deletion expressed support for retaining an article based in reality. -- Black Falcon (Talk) 06:12, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Saginaw, Alabama

Saginaw, Alabama (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) – (View log)

This is honestly a little baffling. I came across this entry while following my bot doing updates in Alabama palce articles. On the surface it looks perfectly normal and legit - but a little investigation seems to indicate this is an elaborate hoax. There does appear to be a place called Saginaw in Shelby County, but it is either an unincorporated community or a neighborhood in Alabaster. It is not a city, it has never had a mayor, does not have any population or area according to the Census bureau. As far as the Census bureau is concerned this place doesn't exist. I find it perplexing that someone would go to the trouble of fabricating an exhaustive list of city officials, demographic information and city government information, but whatever the motivation, it is just that - fabricated in its entirety. Arkyan • (talk) 20:29, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

Included in this nomination is a related (and similiarly fictitious) list of mayors.

List of mayors of Saginaw, Alabama (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs)

This is very baffling. I don't either understand why someone would go to the work and sweat of this article just as a prank? It is a quite strange case scenario here; one of a complete different kind of a mystery; yet it still holds the scent of a mysterious event. Meldshal42 20:42, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

  • Neutral For now. Yahoo maps says this: [1]. This company appears to live there: [2]. The company is clearly not a hoax: [3]. My best guess take on this is that the town is really the company campus and the rest of the information is hoaxy (Population = Current Employees?). Don't hold me to that. Tres Weird. - Richfife 20:46, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
    • I think there is a decent chance that "Saginaw" is the name of an unincorporated town outside of Alabaster, in which case I would suggest having an article on said town. But since this article is clearly made up I'd prefer to nuke this hoaxy version and have a proper article on the real place rebuilt from scratch. Arkyan • (talk) 21:02, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
    • We are wikipedia editors, we don't "nuke" articles with bogus content, we edit them.Dhaluza 15:58, 16 June 2007 (UTC)
  • Merge list of mayors into main article if it's worth keeping at all...such a small place doesn't need such undue weight in Wikipedia. The list of mayors was created hours after it was declined to be created on grounds of suspicious and uncited info and we still have no cites for it, so it could be deleted as uncited material. DMacks 20:59, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete as WP:HOAX. 99.09% white, 0.01% black and 0% everybody else? Highly improbable (and there's 0.9% unaccounted for). What is this, a Ku Klux Klan enclave with 6 slaves 1 token African American? Clarityfiend 21:01, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
    • The actual ethic breakdown for this area is very close to these numbers (and very easy to research). Dhaluza 15:58, 16 June 2007 (UTC)
  • Marginal Keep The current content seems to be unsourced, so it can be removed, however, a zip code search through the USPS gets me 35137 for this place's zipcode. FrozenPurpleCube 21:53, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete, hoax, if there were such an incorporated place, it would have been created by Rambot from the 2000 census data. Since it was not, this is all totally false information. Once deleted, create an article about the unincorporated place with sourced information. It isn't listed at the census page at [4], making me have a hard tiem believing that a city of over 6000 just got left off the census. This court filing calls SAginaw an unincorporated place. Therefore, no mayors. And this map doesn't look like a place of 6000 people. Corvus cornix 22:45, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep and removed unsourced hoaxy stuff. "However, SCTC found a building site in Saginaw, an unincorporated community 2.5 miles north of Calera in Shelby County."[5] "Saginaw residents galvanized in opposition to a methadone clinc." [6] We have plenty of unincorporated communities and this seems to meet WP:V in that regard. --Dhartung | Talk 00:14, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
But the entire thing is hoaxy/unsourced - there's not an ounce of truth to this article. That's why I mentioned above, that this article should be deleted (as well as the list of mayors) so that an article on the real place can be created without this in the history. But I guess it's all the same in the end. Arkyan • (talk) 01:09, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
You didn't address the research I did above. There is no way this 6000+ ppulation town could be so completely below the radar. There is no way an unincorporated town would have mayors. Corvus cornix 01:26, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
I said "remove unsourced hoaxy stuff", I thought that addressed it. Anyway, I'm changing my vote as there seems to be nothing un-hoaxy in the entire history and per Carlossuarez it's best to start over. The only reason I would stub is that it's linked to from a handful of appropriate articles, but then a redlink will encourage its creation, ideally by someone more steeped in reality. --Dhartung | Talk 04:47, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete All elected offices for this ficticious place are supposed to be 2 year terms. While there are no term limits, having a mayor who served 61 years; vice mayors who served 20, 24, and 17 years; a city clerk who served 55 seems rather unlikely. Edward321 01:23, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep as edited I went back and found the place where the imaginary elected official were added by a series of ip addresses, & reverted to that--I replaced the afd tag, and I hope I didnt mess up the links. We don't delete articles because somebody was fanciful about the facts, and every inhabited place is considered N. DGG 01:51, 13 June 2007 (UTC) obviously I did not perceive it correctly,& I'm glad several people have pointed it out. DGG 22:51, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

**You don't get it. The whole article is a hoax. There is no such place with 6000+ people, with the demographics indicated. There are no references that the people listed actually lived there. If you want to recreate the article to write about what we know, that it's an unincorporated tiny place outside of Alabaster, then cut it down to that, but what is there is lies. Corvus cornix 01:52, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

    • Indeed. The demographics are made up, the census information is invented, the geographical coordinates are for a city two counties away, and there appears to be no such person as the Rev. Carl Pyle. This article has, since its inception, been a fantasy. Arkyan • (talk) 02:05, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete as elaborate hoax. If someone wants to recreate a factual article about the real Saginaw, they should go ahead. Capitalistroadster 02:25, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
    • Already done. Dhaluza 15:53, 16 June 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete per all above. Recreate with factual information if such a place truely does exist. Resolute 03:56, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete there seems to be a real Saginaw, Alabama, but this article isn't about it. Best to start from scratch. Carlossuarez46 04:25, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete. Google Maps does find Saginaw, Alabama [7], but it is not a city as the article claims, and the US Census Bureau, [8] does not recognize it. If all the claims in the entire article is false, it must be deleted, even if something valid could be written here later. Sjakkalle (Check!) 06:16, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep and clean-up. Come on folks, the cooridinates are given, the place is shown on the Alabaster USGS 1:24K topo map: [9], 1:100K topo: [10], and even the 1:250K topo:[11] plus it's listed by the BGN: [12] (note to closing admin: please ignore hoax arguments, since they are obviously unfounded speculation). Some of the material added to the article may not be encyclopedic, but the place exists, and we keep articles about populated places, regardless of size per WP:OUTCOMES. Dhaluza 13:21, 16 June 2007 (UTC)
    Comment Dhaluza appears to be right about the existance of Saginaw[13], and has done much to clean up the article. OTOH, the creator of the Saginaw article is the same as the creator of the dubious (at best) list of mayors article. Change my 'vote' to Keep for Saginaw, Alabama but it remains Delete for List of mayors of Saginaw, Alabama. Edward321 04:37, 17 June 2007 (UTC)
    Yes, this combined AfD is unfortunate because it confuses the situation. Saginaw is an unincorporated place, so it has no formal government. I could not find anything to support the list of mayors, so that should go. This just points out why we must be careful not to throw out the baby with the bath water. Deleting the Saginaw, Alabama article would set a bad precedent, and would make it more difficult to create a new legitimate article, since any random admin could speedy G4 it for recreation. Dhaluza 15:13, 17 June 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep, as Dhaluza has fixed it.--Mike18xx 04:46, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.