Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Ryan Alan Hade

This page is an archive of the proposed deletion of the article below. Further comments should be made on the article's talk page, if it exists; or after the end of this archived section. The result of the debate was No consensus, so keep. --Allen3 ^talk July 4, 2005 23:46 (UTC)

[edit] Ryan Alan Hade

Note: I'm holding off any edits until this VFD is settled. Zerbey 20:23, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

• Delete - Tragic short life - but not notable and Wiki is not a memorial - sorry! A curate's egg 15:36, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)
• Delete. Tough break, to be sure, but it's not encyclopedic material. In the end, he was just some guy; either we limit ourselves to notable entries or resign ourselves to creating about six and a half billion pages so everyone can have his very own article... and, frankly, there's the rest of the internet just waiting to be used that. -- Captain Disdain 16:02, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)
• Keep. Notable crime which helped create new laws. The article could use some expansion and discussion of this. Zerbey 19:47, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)
• Keep per Zerbey, not every person has laws created because of an incident in their life. Kappa 20:35, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)
• Delete - No Google hits linking this person to any new law, so his alleged claim to notability is unverifiable. If evidence is supplied, my vote may be changed. --FCYTravis 23:20, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC) - Notability possibly established, but am waiting for more specific evidence - ala "Megan's Law." Will abstain for the moment. --FCYTravis 05:35, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC) Changed back --FCYTravis 17:53, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)
• Delete unverified. Only thing Google [1] confirms is that he died in a motorcycle crash. The rest are probably not relevant (all in a Scandinavian language, I think). --Etacar11 00:29, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)
• Delete unless connection to Earl Shriner is verified--Google can't[2][3]. Niteowlneils 05:16, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)
• Delete: Unverified, with hoax claims in it. What laws allow for indefinite confinement of sexual predators? Geogre 05:21, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)
• Keep per Zerbey (google fails as name of minor was not connected to crime at the time) see ref [4] and [5] Further reference to legislation: [6] and [7] Edwinx2 06:19, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Neither legislation source actually links this person's case to the legislation. As far as I see it right now, he's simply another depressing victim of child molestation. Sad, but simply being a victim of child molestation does not make one encyclopedic, just as being a victim of rape does not make one encyclopedic. Absent compelling evidence that this person's case has specifically been cited in changing laws or national advocacy efforts (Polly Klaas and Megan Kanka being examples), I have changed my vote back to delete. --FCYTravis 17:53, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

• Delete unverifiable. JamesBurns 09:12, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

well, I'm sorry. I've had doubts about the usefulness etc., etc., of wikipedia for quite a while, but this is too much. I've no idea whether Ryan Hade had any effect on laws at all, but NEITHER HAVE ANY OF YOU. You seem to be basing your decisions on who/what is important using google. google doesn't show information on this, therefor it's not important. How sad.

I'm doing this anonymously 'cos I can't be bothered signing up to wikipedia. :-D - (anon comment by 212.101.70.221)

Yes, we often use the "Google Test" to determine the notability of an person. If Google can't find information on a modern-day person, it's likely that their notability is, at the very least, highly questionable. With the pervasiveness of Internet news, it should be simply easy to find links between a person and his claim to notability. If it is difficult, then that rightly invites discussion of whether that person's claim to notability is sufficiently encyclopedic. I would invite you to stay on Wikipedia and improve it - these discussions are part of the ongoing process and if you want your voice heard, make it so. --FCYTravis 17:45, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Further comment: "Polly Klaas" - 28,000 hits. "Megan Kanka" - 14,000 hits. "Ryan Hade" - 10 hits. Subject's life, while tragic, is not sufficiently notable to merit encyclopedic inclusion. --FCYTravis 20:42, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

• Keep Update: Summary of opinion in favor of keeping article: At the age of seven, RYAN ALAN HADE (unidentified minor in media reports, verifiable as HADE via later reports) was abducted, raped, mutilated and left for dead by EARL KENNETH SHRINER.[8] In response, his mother (HELEN HARLOW) formed a Washington State political action group known as THE TENNIS SHOE BRIGADE. THE TENNIS SHOE BRIGADE was subsequently responsible [9] for the passage of stricter laws for predatory sex offenders, including Washington state's Child Protection Act of 2004. [10] HADE died in June of 2005 after a motorcyle accident.[11] A CNN/AP article confirms the connection between HADE and Washington Legistlation. [12]

Edwinx2 18:43, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC) [NB - This user's only Wiki contributions relate to this vfd] - User's second vote, struck through.

Updated entries to reflect clarification of background info (strike moved from second entry to first).

I feel that I must clarify that I have no previous knowledge of any of the subjects of the article in question; I just found the entry compelling, and created my account to introduce research advocating the inclusion of an interesting, though possibly only of local interest, historical footnote. My decision to wade into public Wiki mediation is based solely on my reaction to the pathos of this poor kid's brief little life-- to survive through all that and affect (indirectly, I suppose it could be argued) major legislation-- only to get killed in a motorcycle accident. It seemed to me that no one was willing to look deeper than what a cursory Google returned, and a potentially important (beginning) of an article was to be dismissed without adequate research consideration.

Apologies for accidentally voting twice; that was not my intent. I suppose I should have read the instructions more thouroughly; I thought noting that the summary provided was an update would be sufficient. I suppose it is not outrageous to assume that I have some personal interest in this issue, based solely on the fact that it is my first foray into wikipedia research advocacy, but, again, the first I heard of any of this was reading through the delete comments on this entry. I don't even know anyone who has been affected by a similar tragedy, nor do I have personal experience with any of the issues involved.

I have no problem with the article being deleted based on the merits of the facts of the story as exposed by research, but I have read no response addressing the four linear links which provide documentary context in the above summary. If the local nature of the story makes it inappropriate, then delete away... I suppose it is not inappropriate to scrutinize the motives of someone who posts emotional pleas or pure opinion in defense of an article. It is, however, inappropriate to ignore clear research in favor of speculation about the motivation and character of the researcher. Edwinx2 01:04, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)

No one was disparaging your character, but in votes for deletion it is common to note users who's only contribution to Wikipedia is on deletion pages, because of the potential for abuse (See WP:SOCK, although I'm not implying you are a sockpuppet at all). Believe me, no offense was meant. --Etacar11 01:21, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)

No offense taken, I understand that concerns of bias must be addressed. Sorry if my response was a bit defensive, I just wanted to make it as clear as I could that I have no personal interest-- the data are my concern :) Edwinx2 01:29, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)

• Keep CNN article linked to above clearly establishes link between sexual molestation case and the passage of legislation. That makes it notable enough for me despite the google test. carmeld1 01:11, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I still think it's below the bar of notability, so my vote isn't changing. --Etacar11 01:21, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)

• Keep A google test on a then-minor child (who would NOT have been named at the time, unless he were already dead) is madness. How about the 50 zillion hits for "a 7-year-old boy" which DID refer to him? To know what later happened to him isn't just "insufficiently tragic", it's really interesting and important. This aspect of Wikipedia really bothers me. Articles which could be expanded to be really interesting and informative are placed on Vfd ten minutes later on the basis of three seconds of google search. That's what's really sad. Doovinator 28 June 2005 18:26 (UTC)
• Keep So-called Ryan's Laws are now quite common in US states. While the child victim was really just in the "wrong place and the wrong time" (clearly a 7 y.o. didn't write nor significantly push the law himself), his was one of those unlucky accidents that achieve notability. By analogy, think of Candace Lightner and MADD, or even more-so Adam Walsh. Candace Lightner actively formed the MADD organization, her daughter seems not to have an entry; but Adam Walsh himself was just a young victim, even though his murder pushed his father into notable activities. Similarly, Amber Hagerman. Of course, the stuff on Hade enjoying snowboarding or whatnot is silly, but could be cleaned up. Lulu of the Lotus-Eaters 2005 June 30 15:56 (UTC)
  • Show me evidence of any law called "Ryan's Law" connected to this person. A search on "Ryan's Law" +Hade yielded nothing for me. --Etacar11 30 June 2005 16:06 (UTC)

CNN, for example, write in Mutilation victim dies in motorcycle wreck:

Hade was the victim of a grisly attack in 1989 that made national headlines... Legislators cited the case in adopting the nation's first state law to allow indefinite civil confinement of sexual predators...

Various news sources are currently running basically the same obitz/summary. It appears that Hade's full name was kept confidential until he died recently. This contrasts with other child victims of crimes who were murdered during the initial crime, and hence did not get their name protected as laws were passed "inspired" by their cases (Emily, Amber, etc.). Lulu of the Lotus-Eaters 2005 June 30 16:10 (UTC)

Personally, what is essentially one news story isn't pushing me over the bar into keep, sorry. But others may disagree... --Etacar11 30 June 2005 16:42 (UTC)

Do you really doubt that the Ryan's Laws are named after Hade?! Or are you just being pedantic about an ultra-rigorous proof that it is so? I guess it's conceivable that the newspapers are falling for a hoax, and some different Ryan was the inspiration for the laws rather than this one that died... but pretty darn unlikely. FWIW, I think almost all these laws named after child victims are quite offensive to civil liberties; dead or abused children make for convenient hysteria. But good or bad, the laws (and indirectly, their source vicitims) are notable. Lulu of the Lotus-Eaters 2005 June 30 17:44 (UTC)

Pedantic is probably it. ;) Point me to a source that refers to a law as "Ryan's law" and says it's named after Ryan Hade. I saw an article that mentioned a Ryan Mason [13]. --Etacar11 30 June 2005 17:55 (UTC)

Oh, that UK case is something different (different vicitim and criminal, different decade). I definitely remember hearing about "Ryan's Laws" in a US context, starting around 1990 (i.e. "preventative detention" of "sexual predators"; e.g. semi-judicial w/o reasonable doubt conviction). I also remember reading much more recently about the Manchester murders, which horrifying also, natually. And I guess one of those Manchester victims was named Ryan (I hadn't recalled that until I clicked Etacarl1's link). Despite the common first name (and perhaps similar laws), these are definitely different cases. Lulu of the Lotus-Eaters 2005 June 30 20:51 (UTC)

More on context. While I certainly never knew Hade's name prior to today, the so-called Ryan's Law(s) that came out of Washington state (but were later copied in other states) are well documented. In Washington, this was passed as the "Community Protection Act of 1990." The history, in synopsis:

In 1989, Governor Gardner established a task force on community protection following a trilogy of events: the murder of a young Seattle woman by an offender on work release; the brutal assault of a young Tacoma boy and the murders of two small boys in Clark County. The task force conducted a series of public hearings across the State to discover what citizens believed were major flaws in our State laws regarding sexual and violent offenders. Following extensive research and study, the task force made three key recommendations: significant increases in offender control and treatment, community prevention and protection services, and victim services. As a result of the task force work, Washington State was the first state in the country to pass a community protection law (the Community Protection Act of 1990). [14]

Now admittedly, you have to put some pieces together to conclude that the recently deceased Hade is the same Ryan. But typically news agencies wind up knowing, but not disclosing, the names of rape victims, and especially of juvenile victims. Rape shield laws typically prohibit disclosing their names prior to their death (or the victim's voluntary statement as to their role). I find it unlikely (but admittedly not inconceivable) that CNN, AP, etc. didn't, in fact, look up their old non-disclosed name for Hade before running his victim status in his obitz. Lulu of the Lotus-Eaters 2005 June 30 21:19 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be placed on a related article talk page, if one exists; in an undeletion request, if it does not; or below this section.