Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Roy O. Martin, Jr.

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. Majorly (hot!) 20:51, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Roy O. Martin, Jr.

Roy O. Martin, Jr. (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) – (View log)

Local lumber magnate, university donor. Dhartung | Talk 18:06, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

• Keep At least these 2 references serve to establiish notability: [1] and [2]. Mr.Z-mantalk¢ 18:28, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
• Delete: Neither of them do. For pity's sake, everyone gets an obituary in the paper. Wikipedia is not a memorial.  RGTraynor  20:56, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
• Delete. To be entirely fair here, I should point out the the first of those two references actually does argue, at least somewhat, to notability. That one seems to be more than just an obit. If you look at it, it appears the local paper actually did assign a reporter to the story of his death. Still, though, if that's the only independent nontrivial secondary source coverage (and don't be fooled by the long list of "references" in the artice — all the others are quite trivial), then I still don't see that the cut is made. Mwelch 21:12, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
  • I would agree that most of the refs are just filler, but the obits I linked above are from 2 different sources and independant of each other and the subject. Also, both are much more detailed than the obituary everyone gets in the paper. Mr.Z-mantalk¢ 21:18, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
    • Comment. I already granted that about the first link. But no, I believe you are mistaken about the second one. I don't think it's at all independent of the subject. Look at the heading it's under: Obituaries. It's nothing more than anyone (whose family chooses to do it) can get in that paper. Just look here. [3] Looks to me like you just submit your obit for publication, get the guestbook service set up through legacy.com and then, if you want it to last more than 30 days, pay to have the book sponsored. I don't see why anyone wouldn't be able to do that. Mwelch 23:01, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
      • How about these 2: [4] and [5]. Similar text (one probably based off the other) but separate newspapers and different from the first link. The Town Talk also had 2 other articles about him around the time of his death, [6] and [7]. Mr.Z-mantalk¢ 23:35, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
        • Comment. The first two are just additional examples of the family-provided obituaries. The same thing that literally anyone can have if their loved ones choose to submit to the paper, and in many papers, pay for the space. Their presence is in no way an indication of notability, because their presence does not indicate that any editor or reporter found the subject notable, only that the subject's family did. The second two you add here, on the other hand, are a legitimate argument for notability, but it's still the same story as the first link at the top, just evolving over two days. Obviously this newspaper found his death notable enough to assign one of their reporters to it over two days, and yes, that counts for something.. But it still appears that this small town (Alexandria has what? 50,000 people?) newspaper is the only independent media source that ever found him notable. If someone wants to argue that that's enough . . . well, I'll grant I can at least see their argument. But my personal opinion would still respectfully differ. I would never completely dismiss what's in a newspaper just because it's a small town operation. But goodness, if they are truly the only ones for whom this man is of note . . . Mwelch 00:54, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
• Delete - this is just another of Billy Hathorn's cut & paste jobs. Those "references" are nothing of the sort; I'll wager everyone who dies in a town that size gets their name in the local paper. - iridescenti (talk to me!) 00:39, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
• Delete having exhausted all the Louisiana state representatives, wen now turn to someone who, although a "staunch Republican ... did not seek public office" Only very few details are supported, and the rest must presumably be OR based on the primary sources given. The ed. is a good local historian, a good genealogist, and a very good writer. Unfortunately WP is neither a local history not a genealogy, and therefore not an appropriate showcase for his skills. The requirements for sourcing are to be interpreted with common sense: an article saying that someone did nothing in particular is not a source for notability. An obit is reliable only for routine facts--it establishes when he died, if the family reported it correctly. Almost none of the contents of the article are about him, so there will occasion to reduce it to size if it should for some reason be kept. The ed. should finally understand that the birth and death dates of a subject's relatives and associates are not worth encyclopedic treatment and linking except when the subject is a truly very important public figure.

At what point does the continuing production of such articles become an obstacle to the proper functioning of WP? DGG 01:38, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

Question: "Almost none of the contents of the article are about him . . . " What can you possibly mean by this line? It's all about him! -- Billy Hathorn 05:23, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

• Keep - It truly amazes me how people who obviously know nothing about the history of Louisiana can be so quick to rush to judgment on a man as great as Roy O. Martin, Jr. This was one of the most influential figures in northern Louisiana in the latter 20th century. Not only did he build one of the largest privately owned companies in the Southern United States, he was also a major leader of his community, which is considered to be its own metropolitan area by the US Census Department--not just some small town--, as well as one of the largest philanthropists in the area. His death was not only the front page story of his hometown newspaper, The Alexandria Daily Towntalk, but was also one of the feature stories on KALB's news broadcast on 3/22/07-ref. www.kalb.com. It was also featured on Louisiana Public Broadcastings program "Louisiana: The State We're In" on 3/24/07. In addition to this coverage, LPB also filmed a biography about Mr. Martin as part of the 2005 Louisiana Legends Gala which aired on LPB throughout the year. Please search www.lpb.org for these refs. Please ref the following link for a proclamation from Gov. Blanco honoring Mr. Martin: http://www.gov.state.la.us/assets/docs/Proclamations/honorary/louisianalegendsday.pdf Please also ref. Carter, James E. Life by the Board Foot: Roy O. Martin and the Martin Companies, 2004. Claitor's Publishing, Baton Rouge, LA. ISBN 1-57980-985-5 . I believe this should more than enough to adequately establish the notability of Mr. Martin, but I would also like to put forward the argument that his appointment by Gov. Treen to the Louisiana Board of Commerce and Industry, being a statewide position under the executive branch, qualifies him as notable under WP BIO. This man's biography could be greatly expanded. Watch for both LSU, and especially LSUA where he served on the board for many years, to honor this man in the near future. I have to wonder if this article would have been written by someone other than Mr. Hathorn if it would have been subjected to such scrutiny. Some of you seem to hold a grudge. -- {unsigned|65.0.63.123}}— 65.0.63.123 (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

• Comment: And some of us who don't know Mr. Hathorn from a hole in the ground are perfectly competent to apply WP:BIO for ourselves, thanks. As it happens, "Politicians who have held international, national or statewide/provincewide office, and members and former members of a national, state or provincial legislatures" is the criteria, and an appointment to an obscure talking shop is well under the wire.  RGTraynor  06:24, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
• Comment. That's a fascinating diatribe. Nonetheless the facts are as follows: That he was at least notable in Alexandria, LA, (population about 50,000, or population the metropolitan area, about 150,000) has already been granted. He was unquestionably a successful business leader, philanthropist and community leader in that area. For whoever feels that's good enough, and doubtless there are some that do, nothing else needs be said. They can advocate keep right there. But for those who would like to see a little more than that, I fail to see how any of the above adds much to his case. Where is KALB-TV? Alexandria, LA. Who co-authored that book? The wife of the lumber company's CEO. How significant is that book? Zero Ghits. Being profiled by LPB might sound interesting . . . because you left out the fact that he was one of their biggest donors. Where in WP:BIO does it say that appointment to some state board makes one likely to be notable? Nowhere. Where in WP:BIO does it say being mentioned in some honorary proclamation from the Governor (seriously, do you have any idea how many of those types of things governors and mayors spew out) makes one likely to be notable? Nowhere. Where in WP:BIO does it say that being honored by a board on which you serve makes one likely to be notable? Nowhere. I don't claim to know Louisiana history. But so what? If you have to be emotionally invested in Louisiana history before reading his bio in order to come away from that bio appreciating how he's WP:N . . . then he just might not actually be WP:N . Mwelch 08:38, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

• Remove all doubt: the opposition to this article is about the author of the article, not the subject of the article! Mr. Martin's notability is self-evident. No, this is not about notability, but something else. But what? -- Billy Hathorn 04:59, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

  Billy, pretty clearly your calling me and iridescenti out for wikistalking at WP:ANI indicates that you believe you're being picked on. None of the arguments above indicate that anyone has any personal animus toward you (and I reiterate here that you are obviously a skilled Wikipedia editor who could potentially be an unqualified asset to the project). It's your emotional connection to all your article subjects that indicates you're a bit too close to them to objectively see the notability problems, indicated by statements such as It truly amazes me how people who obviously know nothing about the history of Louisiana can be so quick to rush to judgment on a man as great as Roy O. Martin, Jr. Try to put yourself in someone else's shoes for a moment, and imagine that you don't know everything about him. Why is he really notable, when there are thousands of businessmen just like him in every state? --Dhartung | Talk 06:47, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

• Comment. "It truly amazes me how people who obviously know nothing about the history of Louisiana can be so quick to rush to judgment on a man as great as Roy O. Martin, Jr." I did NOT write this statement, but I certainly agree with it. -- Billy Hathorn 12:52, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

  No, a single purpose account (65.0.63.123) did, with an identical writing style to yours, with the same unusual line-break-and-change-indent formatting that you - and virtually no-one else here - use, and citing all the same publications you cite in all your articles. - iridescenti (talk to me!) 16:28, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

  Rebuttal.I did not write from 65.0.63.123, do not know the person who did, and any comparison to my writing style is coincidental. I am unaware of the book or the television station coverage cited by the person. -- Billy Hathorn 22:12, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

• Comment. True, he donated to LPB, but lets look at the list of the other people honored for a reference. http://www.lpb.org/friends/lalegends/pastlegends.cfm In 2005 alone, the other Legends consisted of the former U.S. Ambassador to the U.N., the coach of the 1958 National Champion LSU Tigers (as well as multiple SEC Championship teams), a Women's Basketball Hall of Fame Coach, a Country Music Superstar, and an engineer who has made a significant impact on coastal wetland restoration in Southern Louisiana, but they probably all gave money to LPB too. No, year after year these are some of the best and brightest in their fields associated with the state and LPB chose to honor them accordingly. And sorry to disappoint you all, but I'm not Billy; just someone who is very interested in Louisiana history and that has played around on here enough to notice alot of the same names attacking his articles over and over again. While I can't attest to some of his other subjects, this man is very notable and his name will live on for many many years, wiki article or not. -- —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.0.7.221 (talk • contribs) — 65.0.7.221 (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.