Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Rock and Ice climbing club

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus. Although strong indications of noatbility are given, there is still a significant number of editors that remain unconvinced. There is currently no consensus to delete the article, but there certainly isn't a consensus for keeping either. Martijn Hoekstra (talk) 14:59, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Rock and Ice climbing club

Rock and Ice climbing club (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) (delete) – (View log)

Non-notable climbing club. Damiens.rf 17:08, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

  • Delete there's not even one source so notability isn't established. ArcAngel (talk) 17:36, 24 April 2008 (UTC)
  • Keep. A club established in the 1950s which included such UK climbing greats as Don Whillans and Joe Brown seems clearly notable. The Oxford Dictionary of National Biography entry for Whillans mentions it under the name "Rock and Ice Club", with founding members including Whillans & Brown, and states "The reputation of the club, and its members, lasted well into the 1960s and influenced several subsequent generations of climbers." It's also mentioned in the Joe Brown biography site [1], which says "This was a club never that owned a hut, nor had much in the way of a constitution or rules, but was nevertheless became one of the most influential clubs in the history of British climbing. Indeed, in no other club before or since has there been such a mixture of drive and talent, so that it stood head and shoulders above everything else – its members regarded with awe wherever they went." Espresso Addict (talk) 01:42, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
    • The club is also mentioned in several climbing guidebooks, including the BMC guides to Kinder, Stanage and Langdale; the Langdale guide (1999) says "a new group of 'tigers' from Wales, the 'little men', the men of the Rock and Ice ... these men proved to be the most formidable group of climbers ever to operate on British rock." There's a whole chapter on the club in Brown's autobiography, Hard Years (2001; ISBN 9780898868456) (see [2]). It also appears in Sherman Exposed: Slightly Censored Climbing Stories (2001; ISBN 0898868521): "He and Joe Brown were the famous 'climbing plumbers' who made up the core of the Rock and Ice club, a group instrumental in the development of modern free climbing." [3]
Some other online sources include "For about a decade and a half following the end of the Second World War, British rock climbing was dominated by Joe Brown and Don Whillans and their compatriots in the Manchester Rock and Ice Club. Such was the unprecedented severity of this group's climbs, and especially those of Brown, that they immediately took on an aura of impregnability. ... the mythical reputation of the Rock and Ice Club..." (The Independent [4]); "He and Brown formed the nucleus of a climbing club, The Rock and Ice. Anarchic, unhindered by rules and regulations, this loose assemblage of working-class men slept in road-menders' huts and hitched or begged lifts around the country. They were vertical beatniks, choosing a life that they perceived as more free than the alternative their schoolmates in Manchester had followed. ... The pair form a famous partnership that becomes the basis of a climbing club, The Rock and Ice." (The Guardian; [5]) "These were the years of the pre-eminence of the Rock and Ice, with the mighty muscled Don Whillans and Joe Brown at the pinnacle of their club, and also of British climbing." (Climbers Club Journal [6]); "Climbing on these cliffs reached its zenith in the decade after the second World War, with Joe Brown and his fellow climbers from the 'Rock and Ice' club driving exploration forward at an unprecedented rate." (Climbing in Snowdonia [7]); "Rock climbing in Britain as a whole was, for the rest of the decade, dominated to a considerable degree by the members of the Rock and Ice Club, though their impact on Wales was immensely greater than on the Lakes." (FRCC Journal, [8]) etc etc... Espresso Addict (talk) 05:31, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so that consensus may be reached.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Espresso Addict (talk) 01:49, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
  • Note: This debate has been included in the list of United Kingdom-related deletion discussions. —Espresso Addict (talk) 02:07, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
  • Delete I can't tell if Don Whillans and Joe Brown are especially notable, but even if so this could just be mentioned on their pages instead. This page doesn't add anything. Yellowspacehopper (talk) 02:10, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
    • They're probably the best-known rock-climbers in Britain in the 20th century. Espresso Addict (talk) 03:26, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
  • Delete Weak delete Notability not evidenced. I read the link provided by Espresso Addict and looked for more. There are a few, but all in articles about the reputation of the climbers and only as a side-reference. The club's reputation seems to have rested entirely on these two climbers, it didn't outlast them. So it seems the club should just be mentioned on their articles, and not have its own unless some sources can be found that are specifically about the club and not just in passing. Ryan Paddy (talk) 05:40, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
  • Keep From the first book I grabbed from the bookshelf, A Brief History of British Mountaineering "The routes put up by this elite grouping attracted an aura and kudos which would hold for most of the decade..." Brown and Whillans were not the only important members, just the most important ones. It was also noteworthy for being one of the first important climbing clubs to have a predominantly working class membership, as opposed to the old Oxonians and Cantabrigians who dominated the Alpine Club, thus marking an important change in the demographic of British climbing, and I'll see if I can find some specific references for that later. As Expresso Addict points out, it gets a full chapter in Brown's Autobiography, and another full chapter in Whillains' biography The Villain, and on a quick skim read that chapter looks to be at least as much about the club as about Whillains himself. Iain99Balderdash and piffle 07:11, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
    • Note that "A Brief History of British Mountaineering" was published by the British Mountaineering Council....--Damiens.rf 14:56, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
      • I'm not sure as to the relevance of this comment. The BMC is the national body that represents rock climbing, mountaineering and hill walking in the UK, and publishes many books among its very varied activities. I don't think the Rock and Ice club is one of the clubs that fused to form it, and it doesn't even seem to appear among the long list of clubs that are officially affiliated. Espresso Addict (talk) 16:08, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
        • Indeed, there is no problem with the source Actually it was originally published by the separate Mountain Heritage Turst anyway [10], and republished by the BMC the following year. But if that's not good enough, how about this passage from The Villain - "[After acknowledging that other climbers were making significant ascents at the time]... Nontheless, in terms of a significant series of new climbs, sustained over a number of years and coincident with the very highest standard of the day, there would be few willing to argue with any conviction against the pre-eminence throughout the decade of the members of the Rock and Ice Club" (page 91). There's quite a bit of other stuff in there about the history of the club, but I am busy in real life right now, so might not have chance to digest it properly and add it to the article for a few days. Iain99Balderdash and piffle 17:23, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
          My problem is that the notability for this climbing club is being established by a book published by a climbing-council and written by a climber whose notability comes from being the recipient of a mountain-literature prize from some organization created to promote mountain-related-literature.
          Everything seems like a complicated network of self-promotion. --Damiens.rf 18:34, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
          • Jim Perrin is an extremely credible author, whose books are published by a major publishing house and get good reviews in the mainstream press - see, for example, [11] [12] [13]. So what if he was also a climber - it means he knows something about his subject. And the Boardman Tasker's credibility is not diminished because it's awarded by a body which promotes mountain literature, any more than the Booker Prize is diminished by the fact that it's awarded by a body which seeks to promote literature in general [14]. Iain99Balderdash and piffle 12:06, 1 May 2008 (UTC)
Comment I don't see a self-promotion issue, they seem like reliable sources. It's to be expected that people writing about climbers will be other climbers and climbing organisations. What I'm still not seeing is evidence of notability, namely sources that are primarily about the club. It's like relatives of famous people, they don't get an article just because they're mentioned a lot in sources about the famous person. Unless there are sources primarily about the relative, they only get mentioned in the famous person's article. Does the "Brief History of British Mountaineering" have a chapter on the club, or is it just that passing mention? The club being mentioned is not evidence of notability. Ryan Paddy (talk) 22:17, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
A paragraph intertwined with several pages about its members and their exploits - but then it is a "brief" history after all. And as the achievements of a climbing club are the sum total of the achievements of its members, coverage of the two is not always readily separable. Regardless, I don't think the analogy with children of famous people is a good one - that's also partly a privicy issue as they tend not to be public figures. I might agree if the club was notable only for the membership of a single climber, say Don Whillans, that having it as a redirect to his article would be in order. But there are at least two members with articles, and probably several others who should have articles, so information about the club is going to end up spread over numerous distinct pages. But it's well known, mentioned frequently in climbing literature and guidebooks, so readers are going to come to Wikipedia looking for information on it, and as we have no single page to redirect them to, it's right that we should have at least a short article outlining its history, and pointing them to where they can find more information on its members, even if there isn't a great deal of readily available sourcing solely devoted to the club itself. This is one situation where the interests of the encyclopaedia are better served by a common sense approach than by a rigid or legalistic interpretation of WP:N. That said, given the importance of the club and its membership, I'd be extremely surprised if there weren't articles about its history in back issues of climbing magazines, though as my own colletion of those is rather small, I can't go searching for them. Iain99Balderdash and piffle 12:06, 1 May 2008 (UTC)
At least three members have articles, Chris Bonington was also a member (see earlier comment). Espresso Addict (talk) 12:10, 1 May 2008 (UTC)
Comment I agree that it's a fairly strict interpretation of WP:N to argue for deletion in this case. It's true that having each of the member's pages mention the club without the club having an article may reduce the ability of interested readers to research that period of UK rock climbing via wikipedia. I've changed my opinion to a weak delete. Strictly speaking notability has not been demonstrated, but common sense suggests that readers of wikipedia may find the article useful. The article is only a few months old, so perhaps enough material could be found in time to move it beyond a stub. Ryan Paddy (talk) 22:27, 1 May 2008 (UTC)
Comment. When common sense conflicts with the wording of the notability guideline then common sense should prevail. WP:IAR is policy, but WP:N is only a guideline. Phil Bridger (talk) 10:20, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
  • Keep Seems notable enough to me, I'm sure there must be more information out there, and images to boot. Another paragraph or two and a picture of a couple of climbers would certainly improve it. Parrot of Doom (talk) 23:21, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
  • Strong Delete Per Ryan Paddy. AvocadoJellyfish (talk) 23:45, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
  • Strong keep. I was brought up in the 1950s not far from Stanage Edge where Don Whillans and Joe Brown put up some of their greatest climbs. I not only heard about them but about the Rock and Ice Club also. Its influence on British Climbing was great. The sources that are referred to above clearly demonstrate this. It makes no sense to have an encyclopedia that covers rock climbing to not have an article on this club. Is it surprising that a book on climbing is written by a climber? Jim Perrin is clearly independent of this club and writes much more recently than when it was famous. --Bduke (talk) 01:52, 1 May 2008 (UTC)
  • Keep From the sources quoted, a major group of international significance. DGG (talk) 19:02, 1 May 2008 (UTC)
  • Keep The article is poor! but Expansion of article yes, requires additional refs yes, deletion no. Notable yes. Self-promotion no more than any article written by those involved in subject. If the article is not expanded soon I will say Delete.
Nk.sheridan   Talk 23:46, 1 May 2008 (UTC)
I'm willing to improve the article based on the sources I've uncovered, if it's kept here, but I don't have access to much in the way of printed sources on the topic. Espresso Addict (talk) 00:45, 2 May 2008 (UTC)


The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.