Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Robert McIntosh Walp, Jr.
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- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was delete. W.marsh 13:52, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Robert McIntosh Walp, Jr.
Delete both articles:
- Robert McIntosh Walp, Jr. — Article claims that he was the youngest crewman aboard the submarine that first broke the surface of the Arctic Circle (although a previous version of the page said that he was "one of the youngest"). A Google search for "Robert McIntosh Walp" results in 0 pages. "Robert Walp"+submarine does not come up with anything relevant. Assuming that this claim is true, however, does not mean that he's notable by the criteria of WP:BIO; after all, somebody has to be the youngest in any group of people, and it's not like he set a record.
- Robert M. Walp — This article is about a son of the above Walp, and does not seem to meet WP:BIO either. Contested prods on both articles. ... discospinster talk 21:47, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
- Sink them both for nn. Let Jr. be the youngest crewman blah blah blah whose article is deleted. Clarityfiend 03:35, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
- Delete; WP:NOT a memorial, and neither of them seem to meet WP:BIO that I can see. Tony Fox (arf!) 03:48, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
- Delete claiming notability for earning medals awarded pretty much for just showing up? Unacceptable. DarkAudit 09:02, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
- Please Don't Delete, Contact Me if More Info Neededclaiming notability was for BREAKING the arctic circle at 17 years old on the first mission in US history and first submarine to complete this mission. period. not notable enough? if you believe i'm "CLAIMING" it then please request your own copy of the records, or ask me to scan what you want to see. If you feel that my addition of myself, for my own achievements does not meet criteria, then please feel free to delete, as I really only posted this for the notability of my grandfather during his time and service to this country. medals were not earned for "just showing up" medals were earned for medals earned, and thats only a small portion of the article itself, the MAIN POINT being his age at the time of the mission. THIS ARTICLE was posted not as a MEMORIAL, but rather a notable accomplishment in US NAVAL HISTORY, see USS SKATE (SSN-578, and his age at the time of this mission. ALL CONTENT SUBMITTED IS VERIFIABLE. --Robwalp 04:05, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
I apologize to all you professional WP users and watchers if I didnt submit, or edit to your liking, but this is NOT A MEMORIAL, this information is based on US military records. I have requested that my article on MYSELF be removed completely from the record as I feel that It has put in to question the credibility of my original submission of Robert McIntosh Walp, Jr. --Robwalp 04:11, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
Keep Re-edited again, removing all of my personal and family information, leaving only notable information, primarily age at time of mission, i have also requested that my personal article Robert M. Walp be removed from the record completely.--Robwalp 04:25, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
- Comment There really isn't anything here that puts him above and beyond a good number of sailors. without sources to cite otherwise, the sub was notable, and he just happened to be assigned to it. My comment about 'just showing up' in reference to the service medals was not a crack. It was to point out that many servicemen received campaign medals merely for being in the designated area during the designated time. It had nothing to do with individual or unit accomplishment. And there are still no sources cited that show he truly meets notability guidelines. DarkAudit 04:28, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
- Response What puts him above and beyond was his ability to move up the chain in the Navy as quick as he did, and be afforded the opportunity to be on this historic mission. I would venture to say that he was the youngest sailor on that sub (the first submarine ever to venture under and break through the north pole), however I do not have physical documentation listing the other sailors DOB's on that vessel at the time of the mission. As far as google is concerned, we all know the US DOD doesnt list many if ANY records regarding service histories. I do know, from my mother, that he told her there were no crewman younger than he was, and that he was always called 'baby boy' while on board the USS Skate. So I would leave it as "one of the youngest" just to be as accurate as possible with the information I have. Please feel free to email me for any requests for physical proof, as my claims are not verifiable via the Internet. Thank you for the opportunity to discuss this matter. Robwalp 23:52, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
- Response to Response It appears that you're citing just his service record. That's not enough to meet Wikipedia notability guidelines. And unless you can cite a source that shows that he was specifically chosen for assignment to the Skate for the express purpose of being the youngest crewperson aboard for this one deployment, then you can really only owe it to chance that he was there at the time. When I had the chance to pick sea assignments, all I had to go on was the type of ship and where they were homeported. I just picked from a list based on my standing in the class I was in. DarkAudit 00:58, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
- R2R 2 With all due respect Sir, I am citing both his service record and his spoken word, and since he died prior to my meeting him in person, I can not personally notarize a statement. For the record, I put in my time in the United States military myself, and am fully aware of policy and procedure regarding assignments and choice of assignment (or lack thereof). And I know for a fact, that he only accepted (SS) submarine service, because of the increase in 'hazard pay' ($75 more per month) to provide better for his family, and was only asked to join this vessel as a direct result of his dilligent hard work, and conduct during BT 'basic training'. I will have my mother, who the statements referenced above were made to, provide the WP community a statement in writing, with his direct quotes to her, with a notary seal if necessary to compel you to understand. Thank you kindly Sir, personally, for your time served to this nation, and I can only hope you can empathize with my position with regards to this matter. I would also like to add, for WP Community record, that I can understand not every US service member can have an entry on here,however, with that said, with all the information I have provided the community, I can not see any reason to doubt the notability of his entry, other than, perhaps, personal bias, due to your entry not meeting the WP:BIO standards. Please reference your first entry to this forum "claiming notability for earning medals awarded pretty much for just showing up? Unacceptable." You were, unfortunately, ill informed of the complete story prior to your statement made above, as I was not claiming notability for service medals earned but for my claim of notability, with regards to his age, at the time of the mission, which by all accounts as verifiable by myself, he was in fact, "the youngest." I have already conceded my entry, as well as the 'correction of the record' with regards to the exact phrasing "ONE OF THE YOUNGEST/THE YOUNGEST." What more would you like me to say? Robwalp 02:50, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
- And LONG before Wikipedia existed, there was a book called the Britanica, one of America's oldest updated Encyclo, and when those entries were submitted, there was no "google," or "internet" to verify sources, all they had were paper proof, and paper statements. Which I have already offered to supply enough times, that I'm frankly, sick of typing the same statement over and over I WILL PROVIDE PHYSICAL DOCUMENTS AT MY OWN EXPENSE AND TIME to any member of this community who requests them. Period.
- R2R 2 With all due respect Sir, I am citing both his service record and his spoken word, and since he died prior to my meeting him in person, I can not personally notarize a statement. For the record, I put in my time in the United States military myself, and am fully aware of policy and procedure regarding assignments and choice of assignment (or lack thereof). And I know for a fact, that he only accepted (SS) submarine service, because of the increase in 'hazard pay' ($75 more per month) to provide better for his family, and was only asked to join this vessel as a direct result of his dilligent hard work, and conduct during BT 'basic training'. I will have my mother, who the statements referenced above were made to, provide the WP community a statement in writing, with his direct quotes to her, with a notary seal if necessary to compel you to understand. Thank you kindly Sir, personally, for your time served to this nation, and I can only hope you can empathize with my position with regards to this matter. I would also like to add, for WP Community record, that I can understand not every US service member can have an entry on here,however, with that said, with all the information I have provided the community, I can not see any reason to doubt the notability of his entry, other than, perhaps, personal bias, due to your entry not meeting the WP:BIO standards. Please reference your first entry to this forum "claiming notability for earning medals awarded pretty much for just showing up? Unacceptable." You were, unfortunately, ill informed of the complete story prior to your statement made above, as I was not claiming notability for service medals earned but for my claim of notability, with regards to his age, at the time of the mission, which by all accounts as verifiable by myself, he was in fact, "the youngest." I have already conceded my entry, as well as the 'correction of the record' with regards to the exact phrasing "ONE OF THE YOUNGEST/THE YOUNGEST." What more would you like me to say? Robwalp 02:50, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
- Response to Response It appears that you're citing just his service record. That's not enough to meet Wikipedia notability guidelines. And unless you can cite a source that shows that he was specifically chosen for assignment to the Skate for the express purpose of being the youngest crewperson aboard for this one deployment, then you can really only owe it to chance that he was there at the time. When I had the chance to pick sea assignments, all I had to go on was the type of ship and where they were homeported. I just picked from a list based on my standing in the class I was in. DarkAudit 00:58, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
- Response What puts him above and beyond was his ability to move up the chain in the Navy as quick as he did, and be afforded the opportunity to be on this historic mission. I would venture to say that he was the youngest sailor on that sub (the first submarine ever to venture under and break through the north pole), however I do not have physical documentation listing the other sailors DOB's on that vessel at the time of the mission. As far as google is concerned, we all know the US DOD doesnt list many if ANY records regarding service histories. I do know, from my mother, that he told her there were no crewman younger than he was, and that he was always called 'baby boy' while on board the USS Skate. So I would leave it as "one of the youngest" just to be as accurate as possible with the information I have. Please feel free to email me for any requests for physical proof, as my claims are not verifiable via the Internet. Thank you for the opportunity to discuss this matter. Robwalp 23:52, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
- Delete - nothing in the article indicates significant notability. His service record, while admirable, does not really distinguish him, and being the youngest on the sub for the particular historic mission is an interesting bit of trivia, but doesn't meet the notabilty threshold, especially with the lack of reliable sources. -- Whpq 16:44, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
- Response to Previous Delete - it has nothing to do with his overall service record, and its more than an interesting "bit of trivia" there were no other sailors, with the records I have that were even close to being under 21. The lead ship on that mission was headed by all the higher ups in the US Navy and USMC at that time, and the fact that this "young kid" was on the sub, risking his life, to be on this journey, is in fact notable. "especially with lack of reliable sources."... I HAVE all of the sources needed, and if its anybody's question, I will repeeat for the 1000th time, I WILL SCAN any documents, or you can request them yourself from the department of defense. His service number and information are referenced in the original entry. NO you will not find any "sources" online, as DOD DOES NOT list service recocrds as public information. I HAVE all documents necessary to confirm ALL claims made herein. Just ask what you want to see. Thank you again, for the opportunity to clarify this matter. Respectfully, Robwalp 19:18, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
- Comment - The original claim of being the youngest is a claim of notability although debatable. Changing to being one of the youngest dilutes the claim as it not singularly unique. And based on earlier statements that there is no documentation of the other dates of birth for the sub's crew on the mission, then I fail to see the point of any of the proffered document scans. They may establish the date of birth of Robert Walsh Jr., but that is all. -- Whpq 19:34, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
- Re:Comment Understood, however, enlistment age at the time (50's, 60's) was 16 years old. So it is impossible for anyone to have been younger than himself at the time on board this vessel. Should the WP community care to request documentatino from the US DOD to verify age of all sailors aboard that vessel at the time of the mission, that would be up to you. Thank you again Whpq for your insight and commentary. Robwalp 21:08, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
- Delete Are there any books, newspapers, or other print media – not the DOD documents mentioned earlier, but third-party, published sources – that discuss this man at all? I've looked in two university libraries, Questia, Amazon.com, and The New York Times archive back to 1941, and I find nothing. I'm unable to see why the article belongs in the encyclopedia. KrakatoaKatie 12:24, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
