Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Rob Levin (third nomination)

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was Keep. Lord of Illusions 01:27, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Rob Levin

Man's article was first nominated in January, and deleted per WP:NN. Man died, article was recreated, possibly as a memorial, and nominated a second time. Debate was speedy closed per WP:SNOW and because the majority of votes at the time were keeps, after running for less than a day. Third nomination, hopefully this time there will be less bias when people here comment on this. The man died, and nothing has changed since January. Anybody with enough knowledge can start up an IRC network, in my opinion founding one doesn't make a person notable or worthy of their own article; and in most situations dying doesn't increase a person's notability. jd || talk || 01:19, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

• Strong Keep. Notability has been established as founder of an IRC network with significant >30k users. Prior judgement of non-notability was dismissed in last review because the consensus was built upon the inappropriate evidence of the self-effacing judgement of the person the article refers to. --Buridan 01:58, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
• Keep — per the simply overwhelming consensus on the previous nomination. I am not seeing anything having changed since that was closed as a WP:SNOW speedy keep. Michael Billington (talk • contribs) 02:11, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
• Keep he founded freenode, that's notable enough... --Alex (Talk) 02:12, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
• Strong Keep. The Freenode network is a great resource for open source projects. The man worked hard to make it an inspiring place, to me he belongs on wikipedia. Jared Evans 86.14.27.179 02:17, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

To the closing administrator or member. This is an IP so ... yeah. --TheSeer (TalkˑContribs) 10:43, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

Let's keep in mind also that this is how people start in wikipedia... their first edit is usually something they care about.--Buridan 14:47, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

• Strong Keep. Freenode is not simply an IRC network, it is an IRC network with the intention of fostering open source projects. It is successful as networks go, and Rob was at the helm of that success. Since January, Rob isn't around minimizing his importance out of a sense of humility. Rob was notable among IRC network communities. It occurs to me that we're seeing a pattern forming here of AfD's being started and failing, and so repeating, being shopped for new voters. --vmarks 02:17, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

To the closing administration of member, this AFD keep vote is the only edit of the above user. --TheSeer (TalkˑContribs) 10:43, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

• Keep Normally, I would tend to agree that founding an IRC network is not notable. However, the IRC network founded, Freenode, stands apart from the thousands of other IRC networks, in that it is the chosen gathering place for those involved in Internet and Information Technology related projects, including Open Source Projects, Linux, Wikipedia, WikiNews, 'Blogging, and many more related disiplines. Freenode was established to give groups a common meeting place to discuss, share and grow ideas that affect us all as Internet and IT users, both professional and the casual home user.

One precedent for inclusion of places pointing to a special interest group is in the Hollywood Wikipedia article, which contains a rather large list of Hollywood Landmarks and interesting spots. Freenode is no less a landmark to those involved in Internet and IT projects, much in the same way as several references in the Hollywood article to Musso & Frank's Grill, a favorite hangout of Hollywood celebrities, and Gower Gulch, a street intersection where aspiring cowboy actors would hang out, in hopes of being "discovered".

Freenode is the "Gower Gulch" or Schwab's of the Internet community, and Rob Levin, as founder, holds a place of distinction in creating an IRC network which serves a unique purpose beyond that of other IRC networks.

Virtually all special interest groups, political, religious, or social, has a place that is held in respect as their place of origin or of significance to their organization. Freenode is no less a place as any other, created to bring together people for purposes of furthering ideas relevant to the progress of society as a whole.

Another such example is Tun Tavern, the birthplace of the U.S. Marine Corps. I can cite many others of all descriptions. Should the Rob Levin article be removed, I would then request that every other article pointing to a place, or an article referencing the founder of any place synonomous with any other special interest group then be placed for deletion. Chatmag

To the closing administrator or member, the above user only has 10 contribs. 9 of them to talk pages. --TheSeer (TalkˑContribs) 10:43, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

• Strong keep. That he created Freenode is pretty notable, IMHO. --Dennisthe2 03:34, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
• Strong Keep. Freenode is an exceptional community, and both its founding and founder is notable. JD, can you stop your petulant VFD campaign, please? Just because your first deletion went through on the nod because no-one noticed doesn't mean it should stand for all time. Kevin Marks 03:36, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Can you please refrain from personal attacks against the nominator, and assume good faith? --Slowking Man 09:11, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
• Strong Keep. Just because you don't know who Lilo was before he died, that doesn't mean that nobody else does. I knew of him before he started Freenode, and I was pleased that he was running Freenode. Frankly, JD, I have no idea who you are, nor why you really want to delete lilo's article, but would you please CUT IT OUT? RussNelson 03:50, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Can you please refrain from personal attacks against the nominator, and assume good faith? --Slowking Man 09:11, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
    • In what way is imploring someone to stop trying to delete articles which have obvious public interest a 'personal attack'? I'm not a fan of article deletion, much less three time article deletion. The first one passed because nobody noticed (which is a serious problem with article deletion -- basically, if you don't want articles to be deleted, you MUST watch them), the second nomination was immediately squashed, and the third doesn't have wheels. Stop deleting reasonable articles! It's wrong! If you want to have fun deleting articles, go delete an article nobody cares about. There's plenty of those. RussNelson 15:39, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
      • There was at least some reason for discussion, as shown on Talk:Rob Levin, and on the previous AfD page. Also, the previous AfD, though showing a large number of keep votes (24, including weak keep) against a small number of delete or merge/redirect votes (5), was closed early, so it could be worthwhile to listen to the debate. Also, please remember that stating your point here is probably the most beneficial way to voice your opinion: please see WP:POINT. Dougk 20:17, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
• Strong Keep Levin and Freenode have been mentioned in many sources, and he is most certainly notable. Seraphimblade 06:55, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Could you perhaps add citations to some of these sources, or provide the sources on my Talk page? This article, as well as Freenode, are pretty sparse in the references department, and I'd love to improve that. --Slowking Man 09:05, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
• Keep. This is not a memorial, this is a biographical article about a notable person connected to the open source movement. Yamaguchi先生 11:01, 15 October 2006
• Keep, anybody can start a restaurant, but not everyone is Ray Kroc. He's got the press coverage of his life to pass WP:BIO, so why not? Night Gyr (talk/Oy) 13:23, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
• Keep Although the article was only recreated because he died (I was on #wikipedia when we recreated it), being the creator of freenode is notable enough. Shadow1 (talk) 15:30, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
• Strong Keep I think too that creation of world largest Free and Open Source IRC network is very notable. And as founder, lilo was/is huge part of it! Solarius 17:48, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
• Keep - not only is freenode unique amongst IRC networks, but I would go as far as saying deleting this article is in the same boat as AfDing Jimmy Wales, to a certain extent. —Xyrael / 18:46, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
  • I respectfully disagree. Wales has been featured in numerous reliable publications in multiple countries, has been interviewed many times, and is president and founder of the corporation which controls one of the most popular and well-known Web sites. He is also coauthor of a published academic paper. Not to disparage Levin, whose dedication I certainly admired (I even had the pleasure of chatting privately with him on a couple occasions), but Wales is much, much higher up on the notability scale. --Slowking Man 09:05, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
    • Yes, that's a good point. I agree that jwales is indeed more notable, but I would put them both in the same category as people like Richard Stallman, Linus Torvalds - all four of these are working for freedom of information. I leave my !vote as a Keep, but I would say that it's definately not a strong one, as I understand that I may appear a little biased - as a freenode volunteer, I would never close this AfD even if I had not made a comment in it. Thank you for your thoughts. —Xyrael / 18:12, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
• Keep per Xyrael. Akanksha 03:58, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
• Delete Keep (Please see below for reason to change the vote, the old reasoning is left here for the record.) per jd, very little has changed (other than the recent death), and however saddening it may be, it doesn't necessarily justify his own wikipedia page. The problem I see is there is very little chance of this growing beyond much of a stub page, with basic facts of his life, and the one major accomplishment of founding the Open Projects Network / Freenode. That is why I would strongly suggest merging/redirecting to the Freenode/PDPC articles, detailing his contributions there. While I would agree that his influence was profound, I'm just afraid there's very little content which can be added to make this deserving of its own article. While I can see his influence now as being significant, I'm not sure that it would stand the test of becoming a part of the historical record in the field, per WP:BIO. If someone can prove me wrong by adding biographical information with citations, by all means, please do so! This would make the difference between a delete and a keep for me. Dougk 04:51, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

I'm afraid i've not seen the policy that defines the 'deserving of its own article', could you point that out? Neither have i really seen a policy about size of articles beyond the obvious, 'there is no content here'. --Buridan 12:54, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

The reference here was to some not formally accepted tests for notability in biographies: the expandability ("will this ever be more than a stub?") and 100-year test ("will anyone without a direct connection find the article useful?"). While I'd agree that 100 years is a bit far-fetched in this case, I have problems visualizing long-term notability. The main clause from the accepted policy is "[those] who are likely to become a part of the enduring historical record of that field." That would be what I would contest. Again, if someone has evidence which may contradict me, by all means—please show it. I knew and worked with Rob Levin on Freenode staff, and considering he even stated that an article about himself was not notable (see first AfD), the not uncommon (although tragic) bicycle accident leading to his death in itself does not give notability (not that this is necessarily what people are contesting). Also, yes, I have read comments below, although I will comment on them there. Dougk 17:24, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

And, updated vote thanks to some relavent information being brought to my attention. I appreciate it! Dougk 20:17, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

What has changed from the first deletion is that people understand that the Rob_Levin article is under attack. RussNelson 15:39, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

• I hate to fight the prevailing wisdom here, but I'm not seeing any real evidence of the subject's notability. There appear to be no reliable sources from which to draw information for the article. Most of the comments above seem to base their claims of notability on subjective criteria—"Levin is notable because he started a FLOSS IRC network" and such—which I think is an unfortunate example of Wikipedia's systemic bias. Unless I'm mistaken, we don't have article(s) about the founder(s) of DALnet, IRCnet, or EFnet (which according to the article is the present incarnation of the original IRC network), although those networks have existed for much longer than Freenode and have an order of magnitude more users. An article about the now-deceased founder of an IRC network dedicated to, say, collectibles would probably be summarily speedy deleted or merged into an article about the network. In addition, the article was deleted in its initial AfD with the approval of Levin himself, who stated he did not believe himself to be notable enough for Wikipedia, and only recreated following his death. My recommendation would be to redirect the article to Freenode and incorporate information about Levin into that article (which could use a great deal of improvement itself, but that's another matter). --Slowking Man 09:05, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

We have discussed the merits of Rob's self-effacement of the first afd before and they were dismissed at that time in the last afd. We also extensively discussed the merger question and it was dismissed on several grounds. That wikipedia is lacking representations of notable people, such as the other major irc network founders, is not evidence that it should keep them out or delete them. There is no reason to delete this one either or to merge it. It stands as a question of whether he is notable or not and whether there are verified facts, there are verified facts and notability has been established. Is he as notable as Jimbo, does he pass the notability test in WP:Bio, yes.--Buridan 14:54, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

I would have to disagree on some points here: I didn't see necessarily how the "merits of Rob's self-effacement" were dismissed (other than the AfD being closed)—there simply wasn't a lot of discussion on the topic, as I wasn't aware of the "several grounds" for dismissing the merger idea. Perhaps you can shine some light on the subject? I don't think the past AfD being closed is sufficient grounds to completely dismiss all arguments for the delete, but perhaps another way to look at it is at he time, the reasons to keep outweighed the reasons to delete. Dougk 17:24, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

Time is an important factor here, I agree. I can see an AFD on this article in maybe 3-5 years, once the facts of history have become pretty stable, perhaps in 3 years no one will know who lilo was, however, in the present, things are still current, freenode is still running, and his other efforts are likely still being documented. as for the merger debate that was on the article talk page, jimbo perhaps put it succinctly in regards to time on that page. --Buridan 18:40, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

Ok, I see what you mean... I hope time wouldn't be a factor, though I agree that it could cause this article to be re-evaluated. Jimbo's comments do sum up the argument pretty well, since it does establish some idea of notability (at least, given this context), and that a merger of the articles would seem out of place. To me, it seems a precarious balance, although in this instance, I think you have indeed shown that the keep vote is justified. However, I would recommend leaving the vote open for the full term, so that this doesn't happen again immediately after the vote—it looks like the last AfD was perhaps closed too early, while there was still some debate. Again, as Buridan has pointed out, it is noteworthy to read through Talk:Rob Levin—there is discussion relevant to this issue on that page which is not included in the previous AfD pages. Dougk 20:17, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

• Keep, still, and if the article can't be made to grow at all, merge to PDPC/freenode articles. I'm not buying the "just a memorial" thing; the guy has at least some minor claims to fame, aside of just being dead. And "we don't have articles on other IRC net founders" is not an issue, in my opinion... assuming that the founder was well known among the network users, and lilo was well known among Freenode users. (Really, I don't really even pay attention to who runs the IRC networks, but lilo stuck in mind.) --wwwwolf (barks/growls) 10:10, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
• Delete. The guy was at best fringe notable, and wanted the article deleted, so it was done. To recreate it in death seems rather...low. Rebecca 01:29, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

that seems to be a strange interpretation of events, but it hinges on whether you know well enough to know that what he said, is what he meant. I don't make that claim, so i make the judgement only on wikipedia standards. if you do, please share more.--Buridan 02:24, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

I think I can understand somewhat what Rebecca is saying (though I won't speak for her)—I find myself sitting almost smack in the middle... on one side, he did make rather significant contributions founding the first open-source/free-software-centric IRC network (others have since split from the original project)... but still, there is the fact that he originally wished to have the article deleted. Also, outside of Freenode, there aren't any major contributions that I am aware of. I don't think the issue necessarily rests on the issue "Was his contribution to Freenode notable?" but rather, "Was his life notable as a whole?" -- and to me, at least, it's a very difficult decision to make. Dougk 04:18, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

• Keep per the comments made above, it would be nice if we had similar articles for founders of other large networks; I see a definite historic importance here. RFerreira 01:05, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
• Keep per many comments made above, but also because he stands to be an important representation of open source cultural values that may prove valuable later; as such, retaining this stub seems reasonable. Chris Messina 01:05, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
• Keep: Freenode is a landmark IRC network and one of the few networks not full of botnets and script kiddies. It is as central to the world of IT as Slashdot or Sourceforge. Rob single-handedly maneuvered his network into this position. While it may be written a bit as a memorial, he is no less a significant player in the world of IT and FOSS.

To the person closing this discussion: Previous comment was added by Matir (Talk Contributions). -Dougk 21:29, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

• Keep per above --CableModem 05:01, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
• Notable, Keep. +sj + 23:37, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.