Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Rival Schools (band)
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- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was keep. Can't sleep, clown will eat me 09:50, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Rival Schools (band)
Fails WP:MUSIC:
- No charted hits in any countries.
- Not certified gold in any country.
- No assertion of a national or international tour.
- Has only released one album.
- No major media sources.
- Members are not notable enough independently to justify the band's notability by association This one claim is not convincing enough.
- Possible exception being Walter Schreifels, but WP:MUSIC is tentative on this point, stating that this often merits a redirect.
- Comment: I'd say Samuel Siegler is just as notable, being part of Glassjaw, Nightmare of You and CIV. Halo 01:35, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
- No claim of representativeness of a style or scene.
- No major music awards.
- No apparent participation in music competitions.
- No inclusion in other notable media.
- No claim to rotation in any radio networks.
- No claim to being the subject of any radio show.
Most importantly, though: none of the supposed assertions of notability have sources. This appears to me to be a well written vanity article, abundantly wikilinked to give the impression of legitimacy and notability. It should be deleted. Dmcdevit·t 23:34, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
- Strong, speedy keep - I try to be less bitchy these days about people who don't know anything about music, but c'mon, the All Music Guide link is provided in the article, and that verifies everything in the article. If I weren't such a Girl Scout now in the Wikipedia community, my wrists still stinging from the admonishments of those who don't enjoy my "rogue admin" activities, I would have closed this as a bad faith nomination. PT (s-s-s-s) 23:58, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
- The article doesn't assert anything notable, however. What you say is false, anyhow. None of the things that actually look like plausible assertions of notability (the ones I put a {{fact}} by, to be clear) aren't there in the reference. This seems like a kneejerk remark to a thoughtful nomination. Please don't say "speedy" keep and imply this nomination is made in bad faith; it's frankly insulting. Dmcdevit·t 00:23, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
- What is insulting is waste-of-time AfDs like this by people who don't know anything about music. PT (s-s-s-s) 02:19, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
- Insults are insulting. You shouldn't be insulted by a calm suggestion and discussion. I'm quite dismayed that you then chose to look through my contributions and deprod thre articles I just tagged seemingly indiscrimately, without giving a rationale or fixing the problem, even deprodding an article that's written like clear vanity: "One faithful night of partying at the Sierzega household would provide the change they were looking for...A dear friend was given a SUPERB nickname, P.T..the rest is history...their memory is still alive and well in the hearts of the faithful". I just met you, but I'm already tired of your incivility and disrespectfulness. Nobody, least of all me, is going to get really worked up over the result of this one AfD, but this is an encyclopedia, and you really need to start acting with the maturity that implies. Dmcdevit·t 02:39, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
- What is insulting is waste-of-time AfDs like this by people who don't know anything about music. PT (s-s-s-s) 02:19, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
- The article doesn't assert anything notable, however. What you say is false, anyhow. None of the things that actually look like plausible assertions of notability (the ones I put a {{fact}} by, to be clear) aren't there in the reference. This seems like a kneejerk remark to a thoughtful nomination. Please don't say "speedy" keep and imply this nomination is made in bad faith; it's frankly insulting. Dmcdevit·t 00:23, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
- Speedy keep - Notable well known band /extremely notable/ in their field. The fact they're noted as a supergroup consisting of members from other big bands didn't ring any bells for you that they might be notable? A poor article doesn't mean it should be deleted, just improved. Halo 00:29, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
- I'd also appreciate your reasoning why you've prodded a whole bunch of related articles. Why are you doing this when it seems you don't know the subject matter at all? Halo 00:33, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
- In that case, which page do you think this article should be redirected to? It is clearly not independently notable, as that is the only assertion of notability mentioned, and the suggested remedy for those bands is to create an article, not a redirect. Dmcdevit·t 00:35, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
- If the article doesn't establish that, that's a problem with the article not a reason for deletion. Also see WP:MUSIC: Contains at least one member who was once a part of or later joined a band that is otherwise notable; - members of other hardcore bands. I'd also appreciate to know why you're prodding articles of well known, established bands like The Movielife and Texas Is The Reason. These aren't small obscure bands as a simple Google search will tell you. Halo 00:42, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
- That is exactly the clause I was referring to myself, though you've taken it out of context. It finishes "it is often most appropriate to use redirects in place of articles on side projects, early bands and such." In any case, the other prods I made were because they lacked sources and assertions of notability, but that's off-topic. I'm unhappy they were deprodded without an effort to fix the problems, but this case is different: it appears to not merit inclusion. Dmcdevit·t 01:02, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
- If the article doesn't establish that, that's a problem with the article not a reason for deletion. Also see WP:MUSIC: Contains at least one member who was once a part of or later joined a band that is otherwise notable; - members of other hardcore bands. I'd also appreciate to know why you're prodding articles of well known, established bands like The Movielife and Texas Is The Reason. These aren't small obscure bands as a simple Google search will tell you. Halo 00:42, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
- Delete, fails WP:MUSIC (see the long list that Dmc compiled). Daniel.Bryant 01:12, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
- Keep. Certainly seems notable enough to be in Wikipedia. - Lex 03:40, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
- Keep - worst case of WP:OSTRICH for some months. Ac@osr 10:45, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
- DeleteSorry, Don't see the notability."short-lived post-hardcore band"Edison 21:27, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
- Merge to Walter Schreifels. Sorry, but these assertions of notability are tenuous. It appears to have notable members, but I don't see anything that justifies the band itself having it own article; however, I also don't see why it shouldn't be content in the Schreifels article as a notable aspect of his career, with mentions of the group perfectly appropriate in the articles of other notable personnel connected with the project. unimportant venting: 1) Being rude is neither constructive nor appealing. 2) WP:OSTRICH does not apply when the article's claims are tenuous, and while I do think editors should attempt research before nomming articles for deletion, it is perfectly understandable that something worthy of an article does not always come across as such based on the article's content and resources found at the time of the nom. This appears perfectly good faith to me. GassyGuy 09:05, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
- It's very difficult to establish notability of a short-lived, well known, influential band. Influence generally stuggles to get references, and a simple Google search won't find their popularity due to the game. Their CDs are sold all over the place though, and they're well known. The only way I could possibly establish their relative influence and popularity that is point out their Last.FM[1] fans (different people playing one of their songs) are much higher compared to similar bands like Gorilla Biscuits[2], Rites of Spring[3], Quicksand[4], Planes Mistaken For Stars[5], Million Dead [6] and several other large bands from the same genre, and Rival Schools only have one album. They're a popular band. This band isn't known as Walter Schreifels's side project, it's probably his best known band, so it's inaccurate to redirect there. Halo 10:07, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
- It can be his best known band and still be covered in his article. I'm not sure why that would be a reason not to merge it. I trust you that they're influential, but I'm trying to work within WP:MUSIC, and the sources I've looked at just don't have any content that properly assert that this needs to remain as is. If you think Schreifels is a bad place to house the info, please suggest a better one. GassyGuy 10:26, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
- Because people who look for information on Rival Schools are looking for the band, not a person in the band. There /is/ no appropriate place to merge it too, and that WP:MUSIC rule is intended for small obscure side-projects and early bands that appear before a band gets big but aren't as notable as the major band, which this _isn't_, particularly as the band is more well known than the person. Also, the article now meets WP:MUSIC as they internationally toured, it contains at least two notable members, and I'm also trying to show it has become one of the most prominent examples of the scene through Last.FM. I'm really struggling on show to show it is more well known, aside from the fact that I knew of the band before Googling and they are one of the best known bands in the scene, even if they were shortlived. Halo 10:37, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
- What I'm trying to say is that, if you merge the band to the Schreifels article, or elsewhere, people get the same information, regardless of where it is housed. I'm not trying to call this a Schreifels side project, but at the same time, I remain unconvinced that it merits a standalone article and am simply trying to find a decent place to house the information contained. As it stands it appears this is heading towards a keep anyway, but, to me, it really doesn't demonstrate it terribly well and it doesn't seem like there's a good way for it to do so. GassyGuy 10:48, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
- Because people who look for information on Rival Schools are looking for the band, not a person in the band. There /is/ no appropriate place to merge it too, and that WP:MUSIC rule is intended for small obscure side-projects and early bands that appear before a band gets big but aren't as notable as the major band, which this _isn't_, particularly as the band is more well known than the person. Also, the article now meets WP:MUSIC as they internationally toured, it contains at least two notable members, and I'm also trying to show it has become one of the most prominent examples of the scene through Last.FM. I'm really struggling on show to show it is more well known, aside from the fact that I knew of the band before Googling and they are one of the best known bands in the scene, even if they were shortlived. Halo 10:37, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
- It can be his best known band and still be covered in his article. I'm not sure why that would be a reason not to merge it. I trust you that they're influential, but I'm trying to work within WP:MUSIC, and the sources I've looked at just don't have any content that properly assert that this needs to remain as is. If you think Schreifels is a bad place to house the info, please suggest a better one. GassyGuy 10:26, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
- It's very difficult to establish notability of a short-lived, well known, influential band. Influence generally stuggles to get references, and a simple Google search won't find their popularity due to the game. Their CDs are sold all over the place though, and they're well known. The only way I could possibly establish their relative influence and popularity that is point out their Last.FM[1] fans (different people playing one of their songs) are much higher compared to similar bands like Gorilla Biscuits[2], Rites of Spring[3], Quicksand[4], Planes Mistaken For Stars[5], Million Dead [6] and several other large bands from the same genre, and Rival Schools only have one album. They're a popular band. This band isn't known as Walter Schreifels's side project, it's probably his best known band, so it's inaccurate to redirect there. Halo 10:07, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
- Strong keep, a highly notable band. --badlydrawnjeff talk 13:03, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
- Delete fails criteria at WP:BAND. WP is not a directory, so being listed in AMG is not a ticket to notability. -- Malber (talk • contribs) 12:17, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
- Comment: It does easily pass WP:MUSIC, WP:BIO is for people. Also, it does meet the catagory of being mentioned in several notable music publications, newspapers and websites, also have performed internationally. This band EASILY meets the criteria - in four seperate categories (notable members, notable in their scene, international touring and published in several varifiable publications) or am I missing something? Halo 16:12, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
- {{sofixit}} -- Malber (talk • contribs) 16:14, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
- YOU'RE the one unhappy with it. YOU fix it. PT (s-s-s-s) 17:45, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
- The fact an article is rubbish isn't a good reason for deletion - that means it deserves a {{cleanup}} tag, because it isn't beyond salvation, and I'm not going to waste my time rewriting a page that might get deleted. I'm honestly completely stunned that people don't know the band and that this AFD is happening at all and the band /easily/ meets WP:MUSIC (or WP:BAND or whatever you want to call it) Halo 16:30, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
- {{sofixit}} -- Malber (talk • contribs) 16:14, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
- Comment: It does easily pass WP:MUSIC, WP:BIO is for people. Also, it does meet the catagory of being mentioned in several notable music publications, newspapers and websites, also have performed internationally. This band EASILY meets the criteria - in four seperate categories (notable members, notable in their scene, international touring and published in several varifiable publications) or am I missing something? Halo 16:12, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
- Keep, the band is made up of several known musicians, so the article should stay. (I just found their United By Fate CD, and it sounds great!) 201.143.225.20 20:08, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
- ... oops, the keep above (201.143.225.20) was done by me. Gwargh. Kitsune Sniper / David Silva 20:09, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
- Strong keep. Several notable members means it's a keep, per Wikipedia guidelines at WP:MUSIC. Themindset 04:18, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
- Strong keep. As has been said, this band toured internationally, got some airtime on television, and has notable members. - Plasticbadge 23:16, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
- Strong Keep. Highly notable band in their own scene. Leobarudi 09:37, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
