Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Ringer (comics)
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- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was No consensus, equal in weight of arguments from both sides --JForget 23:09, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Ringer (comics)
AfDs for this article:
Non-notable minor villian. No WP:RS mention, fails WP:N Bestmanforthegob (talk) 05:21, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
- I changed the nomination to link to Ringer (comics), which appears to be the intent, rather than the disambiguation page Ringer. Jfire (talk) 06:25, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
- Weak keep Notable enough to have been brought back to life after dying, have a second persona, then a second person as the original persona, and an Ultimate version. All told at least a couple dozen appearances, including several as the main focus of the issue. If this were a one-issue wonder I'd say delete. Andrew Lenahan - Starblind 12:14, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
- Keep The nominator's brief edit history concerns me. Character is notable as having been part of a major storyline involving a vigilante murdering supervillains; this character's death occured during a large-scale massacre that served as the climax of said storyline, which led Captain America to catch the formerly untracable murderer. Also, as stated above, he was "resurrected" and also had a version in Marvel's Ultimate line. Article has no OOU text at the moment, but I plan to rememdy that as I did with the Plunderer (which was decided as a Keep) and the Melter. BOZ (talk) 13:32, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
- Delete Clearly fails WP:N. Last time I checked multiple appearences doesn't satisfy WP:N nor does helping out Captain America. If sources show up, I'll change my vote. Bestmanforthegob (talk) 16:18, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
- Keep There may be important questions to ask about such middle-rank comics characters, in relation to WP:FICT (and I know I have spoken to various people about this as a lot of the lower level and mid level characters should probably be merged into a characters entry) but I think that requires a broader debate. Deletion is a poor interim solution and, as the entry looks solid enough, I am voting to keep it, at least until the broader issues can be addressed and resolved (not dealt with piecemeal like this) - at which point we might want to return to this. (Emperor (talk) 17:36, 3 March 2008 (UTC))
- I'm not sure how a merge would work: the Marvel universe is huge, with many thousands of characters: as of the mid-80s they published a universe guide which ran to about 10 volumes of fairly thick paperback books. A similar work today would be at least twice or even three times that, and that isn't even counting offshoot universes like the Ultimate Marvel, the Mangaverse, 2099, New Universe, etc. And Marvel obviously isn't the only comics company out there, either. A list of characters would probably be enormous. Yes, one could break it down like List of Spider-Man villains and so forth, but that gets into muddy waters as well, as most villains aren't exclusive to a single hero or title. Andrew Lenahan - Starblind 02:06, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
- The general plan would be to merge them to a list as can be seen starting at List of DC Comics characters, although it might need more fine-grained divisions (A-Ad, perhaps). It'd basically be a longer multi-page version of the examples given on WP:FICT, e.g. Characters of Carnivàle, Characters of Final Fantasy VIII, etc. and the name would then redirect to the section. Things like the DC characters list is fairly solid and as detailed as you'd ever want so you could get a reasonable idea of how to break it down further. List of Marvel Comics characters is less extensive but the category should give us an idea of existing entries. It may also be that we'd want to transwiki some of the entries to more detailed wikis so we can link on to them too. That is how you'd do it - it'd need a bit of planning and a lot of hands on to make sure everything is edited together right but it is doable. The bottom line is that a lot of these comic characters are either not notable or are right on the edge. I don't feel deleting them is the way to go - transwiking is certainly one way but the WP:FICT-approved approach would be a transwiki (if needed) and slotting them into character lists. In the end it is a case of use it or lose it as people are always going to be nominating such border-line characters as this (and there are worse out there) and they will be gradually picked off and the whole thing gets messy. There is a broader solution that allows us to keep the bulk of the information. (Emperor (talk) 19:28, 4 March 2008 (UTC))
- Note this broader issue is being discussed on the Comics Project talk page. (Emperor (talk) 17:01, 7 March 2008 (UTC))
- The general plan would be to merge them to a list as can be seen starting at List of DC Comics characters, although it might need more fine-grained divisions (A-Ad, perhaps). It'd basically be a longer multi-page version of the examples given on WP:FICT, e.g. Characters of Carnivàle, Characters of Final Fantasy VIII, etc. and the name would then redirect to the section. Things like the DC characters list is fairly solid and as detailed as you'd ever want so you could get a reasonable idea of how to break it down further. List of Marvel Comics characters is less extensive but the category should give us an idea of existing entries. It may also be that we'd want to transwiki some of the entries to more detailed wikis so we can link on to them too. That is how you'd do it - it'd need a bit of planning and a lot of hands on to make sure everything is edited together right but it is doable. The bottom line is that a lot of these comic characters are either not notable or are right on the edge. I don't feel deleting them is the way to go - transwiking is certainly one way but the WP:FICT-approved approach would be a transwiki (if needed) and slotting them into character lists. In the end it is a case of use it or lose it as people are always going to be nominating such border-line characters as this (and there are worse out there) and they will be gradually picked off and the whole thing gets messy. There is a broader solution that allows us to keep the bulk of the information. (Emperor (talk) 19:28, 4 March 2008 (UTC))
- I'm not sure how a merge would work: the Marvel universe is huge, with many thousands of characters: as of the mid-80s they published a universe guide which ran to about 10 volumes of fairly thick paperback books. A similar work today would be at least twice or even three times that, and that isn't even counting offshoot universes like the Ultimate Marvel, the Mangaverse, 2099, New Universe, etc. And Marvel obviously isn't the only comics company out there, either. A list of characters would probably be enormous. Yes, one could break it down like List of Spider-Man villains and so forth, but that gets into muddy waters as well, as most villains aren't exclusive to a single hero or title. Andrew Lenahan - Starblind 02:06, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
- Keep. The Ringer is a minor villain, but has had appearances in several issues of multiple titles. There isn't a WP:RS issue here as primary sources are reliable sources. Nonetheless, the article would be improved by secondary sources. As for notability, the character has appeared in notable titles from a major comics publisher, so there is some inherent notability. As a worst case scenario, I could see the character being relegated to a list of minor villains and the current information summarized, but it wouldn't be my first choice. --GentlemanGhost (talk) 01:40, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
- That's not what is meant by reliable sources! Lord Uniscorn (talk) 05:27, 7 March 2008 (UTC)
- Delete Little to no real-world notability. WesleyDodds (talk) 02:18, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of Fictional characters-related deletion discussions. —Pixelface (talk) 08:39, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
- Keep this character has appeared in several notable comic book titles. --Pixelface (talk) 22:06, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
- Keep per above. - Peregrine Fisher (talk) 04:21, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
- Delete no outside sources = not notable. Lord Uniscorn (talk) 05:25, 7 March 2008 (UTC)
- Keep. Minor, sure, but the character and his death have had a signifigant influence on the ongoing in-story actions of several more notable villains, including some former members of the Thunderbolts and the Sinister Six. --Noclevername (talk) 15:31, 7 March 2008 (UTC)
- Keep- There are a lot less notable things on this site than the Ringer, besides he was "notable" enough to be replaced :) StarSpangledKiwi (talk) 20:34, 7 March 2008 (UTC)
- keep- This article could certainly be improved but I would think the fact that there have been multiple versions, including a recent ultimate appearance would make the character notable enough Palendrom (talk) 10:59, 8 March 2008 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
