Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Rigoberto Alpizar

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result of the debate was keep, as long as it's not delete. - Mailer Diablo 03:28, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Rigoberto Alpizar

At best, this person deserves a three-line article on Wikinews. He does not meet notability criteria for Wikipedia. User:Zoe|(talk) 03:38, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

  • Keep for a few weeks at least to see if anything comes of this. Lkesteloot 03:49, 8 December 2005 (UTC)
  • Keeep because this may be an notable part in the post-9/11 world. This is the first air marshall shooting since 9/11. --THollan 03:50, 8 December 2005 (UTC)
  • Keep I think he's pretty notable, and I agree the article should be kept a few weeks until the entire story develops, if in a few weeks he's not as big as Richard Reid, then we can just merge everything onto AA 924. -- PRueda29 Ptalk29 03:53, 8 December 2005 (UTC)
  • Keep. Central figure of important post-9/11 incident. Flapdragon 03:54, 8 December 2005 (UTC)
  • Keep, how is he nn? NSLE (T+C+CVU) 04:02, 8 December 2005 (UTC)
  • Keep. For now lets keep this article and wait a little longer before considering deletion. If in a few weeks nothing much more develops, then I agree with its deletion. After all, this page was just created today. Dustimagic 04:03, 8 December 2005 (UTC)
  • Keep. First person shot by air marshalls. He didn't have any weapons whatsoever. At least let the thing mature a little, but I would argue extremely significant for some time. Will no doubt be cited by academia for some time -- security paranoia and whatnot. Jackk 04:10, 8 December 2005 (UTC)
  • Keep, first air marshall shooting. --Benna 04:35, 8 December 2005 (UTC)
  • Merge with American Airlines Flight 924. Both articles are going to cover the same issue and Rigoberto Alpizar is only notable because of the flight and what happened on it. Evil Monkey - Hello 04:39, 8 December 2005 (UTC)
  • Strong Keep/Do Not Merge Today's events are a guarantee he will be note-worthy for quite a long time. Inquiry into his background, mental soundness, possible motives (or the lack of them), etc. is encyclopedic, and too important to merge to an article on the flight/event generally. Xoloz 05:23, 8 December 2005 (UTC)
  • Merge as per Evil Monkey --YixilTesiphon Say hello Consider my Wikiproject idea 06:20, 8 December 2005 (UTC)
  • Merge, information relating to flight 924 should be in that article, info about Alpizar's childhood, education, hobbies or favourite food are not encyclopedia material. Thuresson 06:22, 8 December 2005 (UTC)
  • Keep or* Merge Reyk 06:26, 8 December 2005 (UTC)
  • Merge as per Evil Monkey. Not notable outside the context of the flight, although the flight isn't notable outside the context of him, so one should be merged into the other and since Rigoberto is the one on AfD... Lord Bob 07:00, 8 December 2005 (UTC)
  • Keep. This made national news. Firebug 07:22, 8 December 2005 (UTC)
  • Keep or Evil Monkey merge (with redirect). Deletion strikes me as weird spite reaction. This marks a major milestone in the air marshall program. Perfect Tommy 07:31, 8 December 2005 (UTC)
  • Merge with American Airlines Flight 924 as suggested above. PJM 07:48, 8 December 2005 (UTC)
  • Keep given that his death will some implications for future air security. This article can give some background into his background and mental health issues while Flight 924 can give the background of what happended on the day including other responses. Capitalistroadster 08:13, 8 December 2005 (UTC)
  • Merge with American Airlines Flight 924 as per Evil Monkey. --Oberwolfach 09:15, 8 December 2005 (UTC)
  • Obvious Keep --Irishpunktom\talk 10:14, 8 December 2005 (UTC)
  • Keep - I can't even believe someone would nominate this for vfd. --One Salient Oversight 11:58, 8 December 2005 (UTC)
  • Keep - This incident may have longterm repercussions on stringent air travel security measures in the US and is bound to be cited frequently in the coming months and years. Danny 12:00, 8 December 2005 (UTC)
  • Keep. First person shot by a Federal Air Marshal makes him notable. Quite possibly going to turn into a cause celebre as with Jean Charles de Menezes. David | Talk 12:13, 8 December 2005 (UTC)
  • Keep. In the future, this article could become xref'd to and from other articles addressing use-of-force policy, accommodation of mental illness, aviation security, and several other salient topics. knoodelhed 13:57, 8 December 2005 (UTC)
  • Keep for now, revisit the issue in 6 months or a year when we can determine how important this event will be. Andrew Lenahan - Starblind 14:13, 8 December 2005 (UTC)
  • DELETE It's a random entry of someone that doesn't merit an entry like this. (similar to all the entries for executed criminals we see here) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dquiring (talk • contribs)
  • Keep There's absolutely no reason to delete this. Perhaps it can be merged in a few weeks. This is pretty important otherwise. Afterall, he was the first person shot by an air marshall. iKato 14:39, 8 December 2005 (UTC)
  • Keep Certainly exceeds any notability standard established in Wikipedia (where there are Pokemon characters, dead race horses, Harry Potter fancruft, ...). --DrTorstenHenning 15:10, 8 December 2005 (UTC)
  • Strong keep. If Jean Charles de Menezes rates an article, so does this fellow. 23skidoo 15:12, 8 December 2005 (UTC)
  • Hello? Of course Keep! Agree with user Dbiv. First person shot by a U.S. Federal Air Marshal makes him notable. He is without a doubt a turning point of another U.S. policy and international criticism. Al-Andalus 15:13, 8 December 2005 (UTC)
  • Strong keep. Major media topic. Consider merging in six months to a year (as Andrew put it) if no political shitstorm ensues. — FREAK OF NURxTURE (TALK) 15:26, 8 December 2005 (UTC)
  • Delete, maybe merge with American Airlines Flight 924.--Kalsermar 16:12, 8 December 2005 (UTC)
    • Comment, I notice the overwhelming amount of keep votes here and have seen similar trends in other articles. What people seem to forget, imho, is that while the act of the first passenger shot by an air marshall is significant, and I therefore support keeping the AA flight article, the person Rigoberto Alpizar is in no way notable except for (the sad) fact that he happens to be dead. An encyclopedic article about a person should, again imho, be a biographical article about the notable life and/or accomplishments of said person. Mr. Alpizar has accomplished nothing that is notable enough for him to be remembered in a few weeks time except, again, for the fact he was shot dead. He was no politician, scientist, humanitarian or artist, he was no more notable than you or me. I suggest we put the info that is of note into the flight article but I vote delete for this one for the stated reasons.--Kalsermar 16:12, 8 December 2005 (UTC)
      • By that reasoning should we not also delete articles like Lacy Peterson? Sure, it has a bit of biographical information but that information is not particularly notable. The only notable thing about her is that she was killed. I can't imagine deleting that though, so this shouldn't be deleted either. --Benna 19:42, 8 December 2005 (UTC)
  • Merge. Look, the man himself is utterly non-notable. What is notable is that he was shot dead by air marshals. It is the shooting that is notable, not the man. Therefore, we should only have an article on the shooting, to which the man's name should redirect, so that people who look for the man find the information on the shooting. This isn't rocket science, guys. The event is important, but we only need one article on it, not two. — Haeleth Talk 18:03, 8 December 2005 (UTC)
  • Merge as per Kalsermar and Haeleth. --Jtalledo (talk) 18:04, 8 December 2005 (UTC)
  • Keep as per Jackk, Danny, and others. Hall Monitor 21:30, 8 December 2005 (UTC)
  • Keep for now. We'll be in a better position to evaluate long-term notability if we wait for a while. —Caesura(t) 23:40, 8 December 2005 (UTC)
  • Merge into American Airlines Flight 924, for reasons stated above. -- Mwalcoff 23:42, 8 December 2005 (UTC)
  • Keep - Individual will remain notable as people will continue to use his name, as a shorthand, in debates, as people still use Willie Horton or Richard Jewell. -- Geo Swan 01:05, 9 December 2005 (UTC)
    • Comment ...or Stephen Waldorf, or Harry Stanley, or Jean Charles de Menezes... Many comparable articles would have to be deleted on that basis. I see Kalsermar and Haeleth's argument in the abstract but feel it's flying the face of reality. People do acquire a sad celebrity through these incidents even when (almost because) their lives were completely non-notable. Flapdragon 01:36, 9 December 2005 (UTC)
      • I don't think anyone saying we should merge is saying we get rid of information. What we are saying is that we shouldn't have an article on the man and an article on the flight. The flight is only notable because of the man, and the man is only notable because of the flight. The people you all name are not fair comparisons as they do not really have an article that they could be merged into (apart from a more general article on police shootings or something). Evil Monkey - Hello 03:43, 9 December 2005 (UTC)
        • OK, I take your point that information is duplicated in those two articles (though surely this should have been a vote to merge rather than delete). You could see the incident as being about what happened to a certain man, or what happened on a certain flight, and no doubt time will tell what name it goes down in history under. But I was disagreeing with Kalsermar's view that the man is non-notable because he never did or achieved anything notable except by dying -- this is what I meant by "sad celebrity". Also, I would think that there is scope for the article about the man to contain important information (yet to appear but no doubt emerging as investigations progress) that perhaps applies more to him than the event itself. Not just trivia but stuff about his personality, mental condition, (lack of) terrorist affiliations etc. Flapdragon 19:32, 10 December 2005 (UTC)
  • Strong Keep the only man shot by the FAM since 9/11.--MONGO 02:17, 9 December 2005 (UTC)
  • Keep per Xoloz. It's a notable event and information about him belongs separately in this article. Bmdavll talk 05:22, 9 December 2005 (UTC)
  • Keep Give it a few weeks, THEN decide if it is a good idea to merge with the article about the flight or not. Crypticfirefly 05:30, 9 December 2005 (UTC)
  • Merge --Ajdz 08:31, 9 December 2005 (UTC)
  • Strong Keep because Wikipedia isn't paper --Brendanfox 10:34, 9 December 2005 (UTC)
  • Strong Keep and Do Not Merge. Goes to US anti-terrorism policy, first post-9/11/01 shooting by FAM, etc. Couldn't give a toss about the flight (delete that, if you must), but the man is definitely noteable (and dead!) JanesDaddy 16:03, 9 December 2005 (UTC)
  • Take five, folks - this happened only two days ago, and his shooting could lead to strong US national ramifications. Regardless, we should wait a couple of weeks to a month and assess his notability with the perspective of a little time. I strongly urge to defer any action for three weeks, then revisit. B.Wind 21:14, 9 December 2005 (UTC)
  • Keep certainly notabile. Hiding talk 22:38, 9 December 2005 (UTC)
  • Weak, dangling keep. Article needs to prove itself of notability of the person, and not of the event, otherwise I'd be voting for a merge. --Mrmiscellanious 06:43, 10 December 2005 (UTC)
  • Keep How can it hurt by leaving it on here???—Preceding unsigned comment added by Zapptastic (talk • contribs)
  • Delete. This is news, it's not the first time someone is going to die by law enforcement and it will NOT be the last. If we fill this wonderful archive with trivial garbage like this it will become useless resource.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.236.158.153 (talk • contribs)
  • Keep or Merge How is the victim of the first ever shooting by Air Marshalls not notable? Me thinks somebody doesn't like the focus of this story. Also worth keeping for a while just to see how it develops De Menezes page was hailed for its probing of the incident far more in depth and thoroughly than the Media.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.3.21.72 (talk • contribs)
  • Keep for now If or perhaps when the incident loses prominence merge with American Airlines flight 924. By then it will be clear whether the incident is known best by its circumstances or its victim Rigoberto Alpizar. Gavin Moodie, 11 December.
  • Keep - the issue around him and the facts of his case will certainly grow in importance, and the Wikipedia article is the most thorough and balanced I have seen - David Wilson, Dec 10 1PM
  • Strong Keep and merge American Airlines Flight 924 - important case with wide ranging consequences for US security policy. Consider also Jean Charles de Menezes. If it is on international news, then it's very, very, notable. Most major news articles also give precedence to the name over the flight number, and indeed the incident in question did not involve the flight itself - he never got on the plane. Suggest the delete people try and look past their political bias here, if that is motivating them. Finally, for merge people, compare google results: [1] vs [2]--Fangz 07:55, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
    • Excuse me? what happened to assuming good faith here? I object strongly to even the notion that a delete voter may have political bias just as I would object to the notion that a keep voter has, opposite, political bias, which some may very well have. The existence of bias is neither here nor there. Inserting an "if...." comment in the same sentence is of no consequence, the suspicion has been stated.--Kalsermar 20:47, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
      • Sorry. Was kinda cranky this morning.--Fangz 20:51, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
        • Accepted. Thank you for striking that part out.--Kalsermar 22:19, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
  • Keep, ambivalent about merge... but, his only fame comes from that flight. gren グレン 12:29, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
  • Keep per important reasons above. Jokestress 19:51, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
  • Strong Keep - This man is the first American to die on American soil because of 9/11 since 2001. --Cyde Weys talkcontribs 20:00, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
  • Comment - The only flight number that I remember after an air disaster was the Lockerbie bombing, which had 270 victims (it was flight 103, by the way). Clearly, you wouldn't have an article about each individual on that flight. But when it's ONE INDIVIDUAL who is the victim, everyone remembers the VICTIM'S NAME way before they remember his flight number. It's total nonsense to merge with Flight so-and-so (the flight number is totally inconsequential). Of course it should be an article about THE MAN. JanesDaddy 20:39, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
Good observation. Couldn't agree more. An article based on the flight is more appropriate for an event that affect all the passages. Here, even if we use flight #, the whole article end up talking about a single person. That don't make sense. The net is unnecessarly too wide.
  • Keep Agree with most of the reasons above --87.72.52.192 01:12, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
  • Keep Strongly agree with the other 'keeps'. Certainly Sr. Alpizar's unfortunate death deserves to be memorialized.
  • Keep The flight number isn't important Lockerbie 9/11 flights are important they crashed and will never fly again. 924 is probably up there flying daily flights from Miami right now.
  • Keep. I see no reason as to why to delete this - it's well formed, informative, and is of significance. -Jetman123 14:53, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
  • Keep. First person shot by US Air Marshalls - this deserves to be in a seperate article like this.
    --Peter McGinley 16:10, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
  • Strong keep We need consistency dudes. Why are people bringing this argument that the guy is an average joe, while they remained silent about Jean Charles de Menezes? Or is there any difference between the two cases I am missing?
  • Merge or Keep Merging Rigoberto into Flight 924 article with a special subsection for him in the article. Having the two articles is confusing, repetitive, and sometimes they contain conflicting information. At first I was for having two seperate artciles, but now I think it is best to merge. Some good points have been made though on the importance of the article about Rigoberto, however, I think merger is better than keeping. Dustimagic 22:51, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
  • Keep If Jean Charles de Menezes has a page, then this man does. Crunk 00:23, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
  • Keep - notable for being the first person killed by air marshalls after 9/11, and the story continues to develop. nae'blis (talk) 22:28, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Merge clarification

Quick show of hands for the keepers/mergers etc... Which is preferable? (Sign under the appropiate option)

(A) Merge flight 924 into rigoberto, and make flight 924 into a redirect

(B) Merge rigoberto into flight 924, and make rigoberto into a redirect

(C) Do nothing, and wait until situation clarifies and it is clear which term is better

  • Jdcooper 02:57, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
  • Flapdragon 15:04, 12 December 2005 (UTC) Will depend on how the event comes to be referred to, and whether significant info emerges about the individual apart from what he did in the event
  • MitchRose 22:58, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

(D) None of the above

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.