Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Richard Tylman

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was No consensus, which defaults to Keep. Although it is apparent upon reading the commentary here and at WP:COIN that the "author" of this work has a conflict of interest, that isn't strictly prohibited per our own guidelines. I strongly recommend that the COI tag remain on the article, however. Keeper | 76 | Disclaimer 21:41, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Richard Tylman

Richard Tylman (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) (delete) – (View log)

Fails to demonstrate notability as a "poet, essayist and painter" per Wikipedia:Notability (people), creative professionals.

Poetry appears to be small-press and/or self-published. Essays were in a specialist free zine, Takie Zycie. Painting credentials are insufficiently demonstrated, citations largely coming from Richard Tylman's own website; he may well have had a career as an advertising artist, but verifiability and proof of notabilty in this field requires third-party sources about this work, not merely examples of its existence. There's a general lack of third-party verification of this article's content, no references in News or Books other than self-published, and there's also a strong conflict of interest (see WP:COIN#Richard Tylman). Gordonofcartoon (talk) 18:14, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

  • Delete - agree with nom in full this time. Have to add though that such press as Takie Zycie and many others will print almost any creation you submit there for free without neither checking its validity nor taking responsibility for views expressed in it. Some papers simply lack editors. Useless as a source. greg park avenue (talk) 03:02, 24 March 2008 (UTC)
  • Keep - concern Wikipedia may becoming too British/American and discounts Eastern European achievements. Spoonkymonkey (talk) 23:02, 24 March 2008 (UTC)
I'm well aware of the need to avoid systemic bias. But this doesn't over-ride the need for proof that achievements are up to the generally-applied standards for notability. Gordonofcartoon (talk) 23:40, 24 March 2008 (UTC)
  • Comment NN as artist, so notability seems to depend on the amount of "acclaim" his Koty marcowe Polish poetry collection received - two refs in Polish, so Polish-speakers must decide this one. Johnbod (talk) 04:04, 25 March 2008 (UTC)
  • Keep. Since we tend to include much less notable djs, rockers and other artist wannabees, this one is a league above them. Has sources, has notability, I don't see the problem? --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 12:29, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so that consensus may be reached.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Ty 02:28, 29 March 2008 (UTC)
  • Comment. Please, assume good faith. Magazines and newspapers with limited circulation are valid. Their circulation alone does not determine their notability. Thousands of articles in Wikipedia feature data drawn from brochures never again reprinted. Things like populations of cities, wartime events, lives of prominent politicians, geomorphology, molecular biology, architecture, turning points in history, advancements in technology, mass crimes, etc. No one is going to roam through articles about living artists in order to remove whatever information originated from small press. There’s no need to remove all mention of Polish language periodicals from this article under the threat of WP:COI. And please remain cautious about possible vendettas against immigrant periodicals by immigrants themselves, even though their opinions might have the appearance of objectivity. There are living people behind these publications, people with vested interest in their quality. In Vancouver where I live, the best local zines ARE free of charge: The Georgia Straight, The West Ender, The Courier. We do not need to single out Polish Takie Zycie weekly or even Strumień based on first impressions of Wikipedians not familiar with their content and role among ethnic communities. --Poeticbent talk 18:29, 29 March 2008 (UTC)
And please avoid poisoning the well. See WP:COI for advice on conduct in deletion discussions. Telling others to discount edits from editors with or without a particular background is not "exercising great caution". For the benefit of editors who are new to the situation, Poeticbent is Richard Tylman.
Note also that there is a difference between references that prove verifiability of statements (which can be as obscure as you like) and references that demonstrate notability (which are expected to be up to Wikipedia:Notability (people)#Creative professionals). Gordonofcartoon (talk) 01:16, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
  • Keep. Notability includes works widely published in non-trivial media and you can't get any more non-trivial than Time. The fact a number of cited sources are non-North American shouldn't be held against the article. Small press, similarly, doesn't disqualify an article, either, although in this case I actually ignored that part of the article because I stopped at Time Magazine. 23skidoo (talk) 21:09, 29 March 2008 (UTC)
Working as an airbrush illustrator on advertisements used in Time certainly does not make you prima facie notable! Johnbod (talk) 21:36, 29 March 2008 (UTC)
People are also missing the point I made in the nomination: that verifiability and demonstration of notability require third-party articles about the subject's work. Gordonofcartoon (talk) 21:40, 29 March 2008 (UTC)
This is exactly the point I was trying to make. By revealing my real life name “for the benefit of editors who are new to the situation” User:Gordonofcartoon succumbs to the following argument from Wikipedia Poisoning the well: “Before you listen to my opponent, may I remind you that he has been in jail.” The nomination was relisted by User:Tyrenius in order to generate a more thorough discussion with less emphasis on conflict of interest, and more emphasis on notability, inspiring my comment above made six days after the initial nomination. My comment paints the necessary background to edits made in the interim by Gordonofcartoon. I do not believe that anybody’s missing the point he made in his nomination, that “verifiability and demonstration of notability require third-party articles about the subject's work.” All mention of third-party references “about the subject's work” has been removed from the article during this nomination… so much for Gordonofcartoon’s impartiality. – What’s the point in discrediting a small Polish language art magazine, I ask? English language translation was already provided for you by a supporter of this nomination who speaks the language. In his translation (quickly challenged as “lacking in understanding of literary and editorial terminology”) we can read for example: “One of the most interesting poetic entries in recent years in émigré poetry”... “his national debut was a late debut by an already matured poet, both artistically and philosophically.” Meanwhile, even a short list of essays written in Polish was subsequently deleted from the article by Gordonofcartoon with the summary: “remove "essayist" - entirely in non-notable publications.” In my view, such unilateral removal of data following his own AfD nomination results in an interesting WP:COI for the nominator himself.--Poeticbent talk 19:16, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
Comment I don't object per se to people writing their own articles, but given that resources they then have, there is no excuse at all for inadequate referencing of claims. They should also be extra-ready to defer to other editors on issues like notability, as there is a clear COI. You do have a COI, which you did not follow procedure by pointing out yourself, so talk of "poisoning the well" is completely inappropriate. Johnbod (talk) 01:52, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
  • Weak delete Notability is poorly established and the article and its sourcing are strongly tainted by conflict of interest (WP:COIN#Richard Tylman). There is evidence that Tylman is a poet and an artist but that alone does not make him notable by WP standards. - Dravecky (talk) 19:59, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
  • Delete per WP:BIO. No evidence has yet been presented that Richard Tylman "has been the subject of published secondary source material which is reliable, intellectually independent, and independent of the subject." With all due respect, the WP:OTHERSTUFF argument holds no water. If "less notable djs, rockers and other artist wannabees" cannot meet notability guidelines they have no place either. Finally, that some of Tylman's commercial artwork was printed a handful of magazine advertisements in 1986 does not speak at all to notability, rather they demonstrate that he was once employed as a commercial artist (as were the many dozens of other commercial artists whose work would have appeared in the very same issues). Victoriagirl (talk) 21:16, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
  • Delete per Victoriagirl and nom. Neither a notable artist nor a notable poet. Living in Canada since 1982, I would expect a notable artist/writer to have received some English-language press.--Ethicoaestheticist (talk) 21:36, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
Comment I think in Canada's multicultural milieu it would not be unexpected for a Polish-born author to continue to write primarily in Polish. There seems to be an element of harassment and stalking going on against Tylman. Spoonkymonkey (talk) 23:04, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
Two Comments 1) Most of the material featured in the subject's bibliography is in the English language. 2) The charge that Richard Tylman is being subjected to "harassment and stalking" is an extremely serious one. I suggest that Spoonkymonkey he repeat the charge and present his evidence in the appropriate forum. Victoriagirl (talk) 00:55, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
Seconded. In my view, he has attracted only the attention appropriate to fairly egregious gaming of the system regarding both the letter and spirit of WP:COI. Gordonofcartoon (talk) 03:02, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.