Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Rhiannon Waits

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result of the debate was delete Proto||type 09:16, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Rhiannon Waits

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This page appears to be a vanity page. While a search of Amazon reveals she has indeed published a book, that alone would not make one noteworthy. Millions of books have been published by millions of people. They don't all rate a page on Wikipedia. Nothing about her beyond self-promotion seems noteworthy. The links to the various press releases are links to services that contract press releases from small businesses. Again, they all appear self-aggrandizing. Hebron 21:28, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

• Delete per nom. Reads like an advert!! --manchesterstudent 22:50, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

• DO NOT DELETE - Just because you do not know her doesn't mean she isn't notable. If it was a vanity page - it would be the Michaelle Woodbury Page. —Preceding unsigned comment added by MichaelleWoodbury (talk • contribs) 01:12, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

• Don't delete. Seems like she might be notable; however, the article needs to be rewritten to sound less like a promo piece, as Hebron pointed out.--Caliga10 02:27, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

• Delete. Please don't count me twice for deletion as I am the originator of the AfD nomination, but Ms Woodbury, a google search of your name and email address reveals your email address as being "yourfirstname@arhiannonwaitscompany.com", so I seriously doubt you have a neutral interest in this article. If the person you seek to promote is indeed noteworthy, write the article as such. As written, it appears more and more to be as Caliga10 wrote, an article where "Ms. Waits herself edited Wikipedia, or at the very least a friend/employee of hers." Since you apparently work for Ms Waits, you are actually in a far better position than any of us to show why she is notable. But you haven't done that. If Ms Waits is noteworthy enough to be included in wikipedia, please tell us why. Please give wikipedia users something other than links to a bunch of sites owned, leased or sanctioned by Ms. Waits. Hebron 06:50, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

• The links at the bottom of the page are not all owned, leased or sanctioned by her company. Google is not by her company either. I am trying to add links to magazines, shows and publications to show this. If you look at the magazines you will find they print her work. The show clearly has a link. There are links to everything. We didn't want to just list her as a psychic because she is alot more. I also put links to a few shows she has spoken at. Remember these are deleted off after a period of time and not all shows advertise online.
• I am trying to show reasons. I need input instead of insults.(E-mail I have received). I have been accused of harrassment, insulting, being rude, stupid, uneducated etc. I have been accused of being Rhiannon and advertisement. All because I am trying to put bios of people that appeal to New Age and spiritual groups. Rhiannon really is not just New Age but these group seems to be drawn to her more so than others. Can we not just be nice and try to get this edited to suit everyone? —Preceding unsigned comment added by MichaelleWoodbury (talk • contribs)

• Keep - Although at present this article does look like self-promotion and needs to be cleaned up, I do feel it should be given the benefit of the doubt and as it does have some minority interest. - Solar 09:51, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

• Nuke from orbit - User:MichaelleWoodbury actually emailed me, stating: "Why are you trying to go along with deletion of Rhiannon Waits? I am not Ms. Waits I am Michaelle Woodbury. I am adding New Age bio's since this place seems to be lacking them. I am not trying to be confrontational but I how can this be a vanity page? If it was vanity it would be THE MICHAELLE WOODBURY PAGE" Now, I've been trying to guide her in the correct direction and assist in the cleanup of the article, but I consider emailing me like that harassment. _{Funny thing is, Outlook thought it was spam.} If she had been making some effort to cleanup the article, then I would gladly vote keep. That hasn't happened and it isn't going to happen at this rate, and nobody else cares enough about Rhiannon Waits to do it, either. :/ --Disavian 16:29, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Question: "Why would you consider me writing you harrassment? It has a button to e-mail you. I stated I am not trying to be confrontational - and I have appreciated your help. I was addressing why this should be call a vanity page. It was a question over comments made on this. I have never tried to harrass or be rude to you. I am sorry if you feel this way - but I am not being rude by asking questions of someone I consider more in the know of what is going on. Sorry you feel harrassed Michaelle" —Preceding unsigned comment added by MichaelleWoodbury (talk • contribs)

Annoyed Answer: it's called a talk page. USE IT. Can anyone help me clarify this for her? We don't email other editors about articles, we talk to them... on their talk page. While it is not required, it's also reccomended that you use proper grammar.

Calmer, more detailed answer: the places where you would discuss Rhiannon Waits would be my talk page, your talk page, and the article's talk page... and possibly here. At this point, I'm pretty sure everyone agrees you are not Rhiannon Waits. However, you are too close to her to present an unbiased viewpoint, something we value greatly. It would be prudent if you took time to read wikipedia's policies that I pointed out on your talk page. If nothing else, reading that would help you understand why this article is up for deletion. --Disavian 17:40, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

_{Misc: There's an "email this user" feature? Guess so. *disables it* --Disavian 17:46, 6 June 2006 (UTC)}

• Weak delete unless the author can find a reputable source to support notability. I couldn't find any substance in related web pages, and IMHO other Wikipedia editors shouldn't have to do all the work in removing puff and bias (one problem being that the existence of psychic phenomena is of course POV and so notability cannot be based on that alone). I would have said keep as a single-para article if it weren't irredeemably promotional (and apparently written by the subject's office staff [1]). Keeping this would set a bad precedent. --Cedders^tk 16:58, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
• Do Not Delete I dont think any article regarding Rhiannon Waits should be deletedAthena louise 17:55, 6 June 2006 (UTC) athena

• Note New user whose only other edit is to the article's Talk page. Fan1967 18:07, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

• Delete - it does read like a vanity page, made by her or not. There are plenty of people doing what she does. fel64 18:59, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
• Yes there is. Looking through here - many more are listed than I thought: Deepak Chopra, Dannion Brinkley, Dr. Emoto, Doreen Virtue, Gary Null. It is odd that she has been on Stage and speaking with these same people and yet she is the one that is up for deletion? Would you like links where she spoke with these people?—Preceding unsigned comment added by MichaelleWoodbury (talk • contribs)

• Comment Wikipedia does cover notable New Age authors, certainly - the difference is that I've heard of 4 of the 5 people you mention or their work; plus the pages about them were not generally started by people with a vested interest or partiality in the subject matter, as can be seen from the balanced style most are (I hope) written in. Links might be useful in supporting notability, at least if they are to well-known print publications (such as newspapers) reporting on or reviewing the subject. PR releases just clutter the web with needless verbiage that few take seriously, and have made it very hard for me to extract any relevant factual information about the subject. To put it bluntly, it currently looks like one big publicity bubble with little content, at least none of general interest. WP:SPAM and WP:VAIN remain relevant here. --Cedders^tk 20:29, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
• Lets see if I can make research easier for you.

[Dr. Emoto - Gary Null] [Dannion Brinkley] I am a fan club admin for Toby Keith not an employee. Same with Rhiannon. So I need to delete mine and get my mom who doesn't know her to write it? I also Volunteered for Richard Sutphens Seminar - should I not write about him either? Michaelle 21:27, 6 June 2006 (UTC)MichaelleMichaelle 21:27, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

• Comment I wrote the following in a good faith effort to provide some suggestions to you, but was prevented from saving it due to and edit conflict... you had just written your comments above during the time I was editing mine. After reading what looks like a sarcastic retort on your part, I'm only going to continue leave these suggestions as a matter of continued good faith in the hopes you weren't being facetious, but were rather serious. Sarcasm really won't get you anywhere. Please keep that in mind when you write to a discussion page. Anyway, my original comments where as follows: It does not help or lend credibility to your argument that you work for Ms Waits, and that a new wikipedian has logged on to lend support to your cause under the name "Athena Louise", a name that also appears under one of Ms Waits websites as being the pseudonym of a friend of hers, a Ms Barbara Melit.[2] It leaves other wikipedians (in my opinion) looking at this like it is a publicity campaign, along with all the contracted press releases. My suggestion to you is to follow the old adage "less is more". Example, Kevin Sites is a journalist known by millions of people around the world for his blog and his prominence on Yahoo's website. Yet take a look at his page here on wikipedia... it's not even a full page long. The more "fluff" and unsourced claims you put in this article, the more you link to magazines most of us have never heard of, the more it appears you are trying to make someone seem famous that really isn't. My advice, and it's only my opinion, is to trim the article down to something smaller and well written. Leave a link to her homepage, and put all the magazine links there. I say all this, but even with improvement, the article may be better written and not appear as a publicity stunt, but it still lacks any indication of notoriety. I've thought about this... what is notoriety. The best answer I can give you is not to list what she has written, but rather include what others have written about her. Tolstoy and Asimov may have been among the most prolific authors of all time, but what makes them truly notable is only partly based on what they wrote... the rest is based on what others have written about them. Hebron 21:54, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

WOW THANK YOU!! and noooo I am not being sarcastic. I truly appreciate the constructive advice. YOU have actually gave me advice. See, I was trying to add more because it seemed others said I showed little reason for her notability. So I just kept on adding. So you think shrinking it down will work? ((HUGS)) - Sorry I have been looking for a kind person to give advice instead of slurs - THANK YOU THANK YOUMichaelle 00:21, 7 June 2006 (UTC)MICHAELLEMichaelle 00:21, 7 June 2006 (UTC) P.S. Also I wrote in one of my comments that Barbara Melit and I were writing these bios. I have never tried to hide my real name or e-mail.—Preceding unsigned comment added by MichaelleWoodbury (talk • contribs)

• Comment I'm not saying shortening it will get it accepted, I'm saying unsubstantiated fluff will not. Again, the important thing that would add the most legitimacy to her is what other people have written about her, not what she has written about herself. This again is only my opinion... I've only been editing at wikipedia a few months myself (though I've been referencing it for a year or two!) I won't be on here for a few days, as I am going to Pensacola myself, so let me wish you good luck! Hebron 00:59, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
• Link The thing is - Rhiannon doesn't write about herself. That is one of the things everyone likes about her. Barb hates this and she is a friend of Rhiannon's. Here is a link to Dannion Brinkleys agent - Mel Minitor and he is the head of Lightstream Productions. You can e-mail him and ask him - yet he put these up.

Why don't you go meet her while you are in Pensacola. Steve is retired Navy and Barb says they plan on living there. http://www.lightstreamers.com/Rhiannon_Testimonials.htm —Preceding unsigned comment added by MichaelleWoodbury (talk • contribs)

Further comment Thanks for the links above to www.thewowfest.com [3] and www.lightstreamers.com, which are the most objective things I've seen about the subject, and support appearing at the same conference as David Icke. However, this subject falls below the strict threshold for notability and, given the nature of the significant claims, verifiability. That which is verifiable (say, existence of an online radio show) isn't sufficiently notable. --Cedders^tk 09:29, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Link to Show Ad [[4]] [[5]] 68.1.122.211 19:50, 7 June 2006 (UTC)MICHAELLE68.1.122.211 19:50, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

In Answer to "Further Comment" -

The show is aired in Washington - yet also online.Even ABC is airing a TV show online now. You asked for proof of an author - I gave you 2 books and a CD. You asked for proof she is a syndicated columnist. I gave links and proof. You asked proof that she is a motivational Speaker. I gave links, proof and names of owners of several shows. You asked for proof that she works in the same group as people on here. I gave proof and links. You asked to see things writen by OTHERS. I gave you links. You said Prove she is a psychic. I sent you links and I offered numbers to people that validated her predictions while she was on stage.You asked I edit the page. I did and still am. One says add more links - another says shorten. I am thankful for all suggestions. The nice ones for sure. I have tried e-mailing others as I was - and was accused of harrasment even though I was not rude. I have asked for suggestions. What is next? You will not contact me for phone numbers or e-mails. What do I do next? 68.1.122.211 19:18, 7 June 2006 (UTC)MICHAELLE68.1.122.211 19:18, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

• I would like to make a statement. I am not Dannion Brinkley's manager. I did work with him for over 20 years. His wife has been his manager the past couple of years. We at LightStream no longer work with Dannion nor his wife! The information posted on our site about Dannion, was given to us by Dannion or his wife and is there for information purposes only!

I, and LightStream Productions has worked with Rhiannon since 2003. The comments I made about Rhiannon Waits on our site and in her book, are my experiences with her, and are true and I stand by by what I wrote. I will put her ability up against anyone!! If anyone has a question, you may email me directly!! It is absurd to think Rhiannon wrote my testimonial nor do I appreciate anyone making such claims without checking with me! Mel Minitor 18:51, 7 June 2006 (UTC) Mel Minitor

Assumption of good faith requires, I think, that we accept the veracity of this user's statement. So there you go.--Caliga10 19:10, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Yes I had Mel Contacted so he could verify I nor Rhiannon wrote the testimonials on his page! You want proof and when I try to supply it, you get insulted. Why do you throw these things out there if you do not want me to offer validation?68.1.122.211 19:27, 7 June 2006 (UTC)MICHAELLE68.1.122.211 19:27, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

I'm not insulted in the slightest... sorry if you got that impression.--Caliga10 19:28, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

I tried to start a page on Lisa Iris. It was deleted in less than two minutes because it belonged to me and no one else had added content. In two minutes.

I tried again, with the article remaining 5 minutes and was deleted. Can someone explain to me how this is right? Is anything I put on here going to be deleted? Michaelle 02:55, 9 June 2006 (UTC)MICHAELLEMichaelle 02:55, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Michaelle, there must have been a server error or something at that time. There isn't a deletion log entry for Lisa Iris, and pages simply aren't deleted unilaterally without discussion--as you've seen above with Rhiannon Waits.--Caliga10 12:12, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Okay well I don't see a log now either but it gave the name Academic Challenger. But I will take your word on it. Since there was not a log - it must have been a glitch Michaelle 14:03, 9 June 2006 (UTC)MICHAELLEMichaelle 14:03, 9 June 2006 (UTC) * I keep editing this - as suggested - but it keeps going back to the orginal. Any suggestions?Michaelle 13:20, 12 June 2006 (UTC)MICHAELLEMichaelle 13:20, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.