Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Regular expression examples

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep because there is no consensus for the article deletion. Yamamoto Ichiro 会話 02:41, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Regular expression examples

Regular expression examples (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) – (View log)

Contested prod. This article currently offers nothing that isn't found on a thousand other simple regex tutorials and help files. If users feel the (currently Perl-specific) content is helpful, it can be moved to Wikibooks. Nominating per WP:NOT#GUIDE: Wikipedia is an encyclopedic reference, not an instruction manual, guidebook or textbook. Monger (talk) 02:15, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

The problem with this deletion rationale is that the general audience reader (the target audience of all Wikimedia projects) has no clue what a Regular Expression even is. On that basis alone, the rationale for inclusion is pretty clear, we need to provide unfamiliar readers with some kind of context and a foundation.

For clarity, I will outline the specific problems with this deletion proposal:

• This article currently offers nothing that isn't found on a thousand ... tutorials

That's a good thing, it means that it's consistent with WP:V and WP:RS. If there's any content within Wikipedia that cannot be found elswhere, then it shouldn't be in an article in the first place.

That was not the basis of my nominating the article for deletion. Rather, it was meant to imply that external regex syntax guides and examples can be linked to from the main regular expression article (and already are). Also, I'm not sure that the policy and content guideline you cited are relevant here. You verify a regular expression example by running it. Monger (talk) 21:23, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

I am not aware of any basis for deleting WP content simply because it can be found on other sites. Perhaps you can strengthen this point a bit b/c the logic is not quite grabbing me yet. dr.ef.tymac (talk) 17:03, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

• If users feel the (currently Perl-specific) content is helpful it can be moved to Wikibooks

That's a good course of action if you wish to expand the content into a full-blown book on how to program regular expressions in perl (or other languages as well), but that has nothing to do with whether this specific article on Wikipedia should be deleted.

Again, there are many topics within Wikipedia that are covered in more detail in Wikibooks and elsewhere. The question is not whether content is duplicated, the question is whether the content is appropriate on the basis of the material alone.

This again is not related to why I nominated the article for deletion. I simply mentioned it as a way to easily preserve the content for those who think it's useful. Monger (talk) 21:23, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

No problem, but then let's save that discussion for after you've justified the deletion. dr.ef.tymac (talk) 17:03, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

• Wikipedia is an encyclopedic reference, not an instruction manual, guidebook or textbook

Although correct, this point really does not apply to this article. Please take a close re-look at the content and notice that there is not a single sentence in the article that tells readers "how to". It's just a bunch of examples and explanations to help people understand the concepts and principles explained in the "regular expression" article.

What is example code if not a demonstration of "how to"? In any case, the current content is not even really based around examples. It is a (currently Perl-specific) regex syntax guide, with a basic example of using each construct that is introduced. Monger (talk) 21:23, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

Example code is commonplace in Wikipedia articles. Category:Articles with example code. You do realize, do you not, that not everyone who looks at a snippet of example code is a computer programmer. Just as not everyone who looks at an excerpt of poetry is a poet. Just as not everyone who looks at a cookbook is a chef. dr.ef.tymac (talk) 17:03, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

The use of examples in Wikipedia articles is a well-established and respected convention. Please see just for a quick example: Wikipedia:Make technical articles accessible Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style_(command-line_examples).

That's a straw man. I never argued against the use of examples in the main regular expression article. In fact, it already contains heaps of examples, which are generally quite relevant and useful. Monger (talk) 21:23, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

O.k., now you seem to be contradicting yourself. Right after you said What is example code if not a demonstration of "how to" you also said I never argued against the use of examples. Please give yourself an opportunity to really get a solid and concise view of what you are really objecting to here. It will help focus the discussion. dr.ef.tymac (talk) 17:03, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

Finally, the rationale for having a separate article for this is also pretty straightforward. The Regular Expression article itself was getting very cluttered and crowded with examples, and this separation provided a good way to organize the content. In other words this was a stylistic and editorial decision that really had nothing to do with helping people "learn" how to program regular expressions. dr.ef.tymac (talk) 16:45, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

I strongly disagree. In fact, examples of all of the types of constructs shown on the regular expression examples page are already found in the main regular expression article -- quantifiers, grouping, character classes, zero-width assertions, etc. IMO, this article currently offers two things: an extremely basic Perl regex syntax guide, and a bunch of Perl sample code that is better suited to an article on Perl than regular expressions. Plus, as mentioned in the nomination, according to WP:NOT Wikipedia is not a manual, guidebook, or textbook. Monger (talk) 21:23, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

You're repeating yourself now. Unless you've something new to add, please feel free remain in your state of disagreement. Please also feel free to re-read the article and the point about Perl syntax being common to more languages than just Perl. All of your other (repeated) points have been directly addressed above. Cheers. dr.ef.tymac (talk) 02:21, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

My closing line was intended to be humorously redundant, but it didn't really work (at least you agree I got the redundant part). For the record, I know a lot about both the Perl regex flavor and most of the high-profile Perl-derivative flavors (expanding my knowledge of the greater regex flavor/library landscape is sort of a hobby for me). In any case, while I don't think the flavor-specific aspect of the regexes themselves is really relevant to this discussion, I do object to the use of Perl code to demonstrate generic regular expression examples since I think that is more appropriate in articles about Perl or e.g. a section of the regular expression article dedicated to Perl. In fact, I don't think generic regex examples should be described in the context of any programming language, since their use is certainly broader than that. --Monger (talk) 02:37, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

If your only substantive objection is the Perl-specificity, I'd actually agree with you on that also. The fact of Perl-emphasis in a RegEx article on Wikipedia is almost certainly more a function of expediency than completeness or academic rigor. To put it plainly, Perl gets more attention (in this context) simply because most people have at least "heard of" Perl and know it has "something to do" with regular expressions. Even people who don't know programming languages or regular expressions get exposed to this. That's just an artifact of history. On that basis alone it is a justifiable (if not optimal) choice to use Perl, if only because it's a familiar foundation that makes the article accessible.

That being said, a better solution to deleting the content would be to enhance the content. It would be *great* if this article actually touched on some of the broader use you elude to. The problem is once you "open the box" beyond the realm of widespread and mainstream programming language idioms, you immediately risk making the article a lot more turgid and incomprehensible to the general interest readers.

After all, lets be blunt, most people who have any interest in these articles are probably the types who are just trying to figure out some piece of code that looks like gibberish to them, and they don't want to look stupid when people in their organization talk about "regular expressions". Indeed, since WP is not a tutorial site, the primary beneficiaries of this and the main article are probably not even computer scientists or programmers (who already know there are better sites for language-specific specifications or tutorials).

Nevertheless, if you've got the acumen and sagacity to step out on that ledge and write up some solid, accessible enhancements, that do not confuse the general audience readers, I for one am cheering for you. dr.ef.tymac (talk) 16:49, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

• Comment: Since I'm not sure if this is the appropriate forum to continue this discussion between myself and dr.ef.tymac and we seem to have a fundamental disagreement about what content is encyclopedic, I'll just let my comments here so far stand. However, whichever way this goes I'd be willing to discuss further after the AfD. Monger (talk) 19:31, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

• Keep In this rather special case, the topic is notable and the article should be expanded. I am not sure the title is hte best one; but perhaps it can be best seen a a subarticle for regular expression. DGG (talk) 23:56, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

• Delete much of the content of this page also appears in Regular expression. Transwiki to Wikibooks may be an option. --Salix alba (talk) 10:22, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so that consensus may be reached.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, The Evil Spartan (talk) 23:54, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

I found it useful. Another option might be to merge it with the main entry for regular expressions —Preceding unsigned comment added by 148.87.1.167 (talk) 16:02, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

• Transwiki Its not a great article, but would make a great wikibook. transwiki to wikibooks RogueNinja_talk 16:40, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

• Merge into Regular expression. While long, this is not a topic that merits its own article. Examples of multiplication are found in thousands of math textbooks, but that doesn't mean they merit their own article. --Fabrictramp (talk) 16:02, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

• Keep. Also, the examples should be expanded, such as for use in text editors during search-and-replace. I am a computer scientist who has been using regular expressions for over 30 years, and I believe that the numerous, complex details to fully illustrate examples are far beyond the context of the overview article ("regular expression"). Dozens of examples are needed to explain the concepts, due to the complex interactions of various expressions and the subpatterns within. The examples for regular expressions aren't analogous to "multiplication" (or even long division) but rather more like examples of solutions (tricks) for partial differential equations. A wide variety of examples should be presented, which would be beyond the scope of the current overview article. Several scientists have complained that Wikipedia has tried to inhibit the presentation of knowledge within their fields. Forcing the numerous examples back into the main article would inhibit the presentation. -Wikid77 (talk) 19:11, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.