Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Ramatis (2nd nomination)

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result of the debate was delete. Johnleemk | Talk 14:44, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Ramatis

I tagged this as prod, but because it survived a vfd back in may the prod was removed. Basically the article survived the first time around because people wanted to give it a chance, but the article's still unverified, google turns up nothing, and the main article on the guy makes no mention of Ramatis. It sounds way too much like someone took something written in one of Kardec's books and created a character around him to write a bunch of books, but there no verification that the books or the character actually exists, and none's likely forthcoming. Night Gyr 21:30, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

• Delete. Are we giving any credence to this combination of statements: (1) "Ramatis is a spiritual entity"; (2) "Ramatis has dictated many books" ?? Regardless of whether Ramatis is found in Spritism or not, these statements formulate a belief, which by its very nature cannot be verified. Therefore, delete as unverifiable (ever). This material could only be included as a description of some beliefs under Spiritism, and cannot be entertained as written. Slowmover 21:38, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
• Delete nn religion. The only GHits I find for this seem to be for a Brazilian musician or a Star Trek planet. Fan1967 22:16, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
• Cleanup and Keep merge to Allan Kardec and/or Spiritism. Kardec was apparently a proponent of spiritism and wrote books dictated to him by mediums channeling spirits. Apparently Ramatis contradicts some of Kardec's other writings. Ramatis is apparently a notable part of Spiritism as it is practiced in Brazil. An argument could be made to merge Ramatis into Spiritism but the Spiritism article currently contains little info on current Brazilian practics so there would be no context. Better as a separate article until somebody writes Spiritism in Brazil. Thatcher131 00:42, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

What are your sources? There's nothing on this guy online. Night Gyr 09:47, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

Worldcat has at least 10 books "written" by Ramatis, dictated to Brazilian spiritualists including Hercílio Maes and América Paoliello Marques in the 1970s. I can't tell you what they say because I don't have copies and even if I did I don't read portugese. While looking for info on Kardec I found a comment that Spiritism was gradually absorbed into Spiritualism in Europe but retains a separate identity in South America. The article needs an expert tag but should be kept as part of modern Spiritism. Thatcher131 14:30, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

There are also apparently 2 books about Spiritism that mention Ramatis including Spirits and scientists, ideology, spiritism, and Brazilian culture by David Hess published by Penn State University Press. My library has it and I may be able to review it in the next few days. Thatcher131 14:50, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

• Keep notable stupidity. JoshuaZ 03:27, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
• As I noted above the listings in Worldcat verify that Ramatis is a "real" spirit entity in Brazilian Spiritism, and the fact that he is noted as a "named person" in the bibliographic record of a book about Spiritism published by Penn State University Press suggests that he is notable. I am mildly interested in following up on this and expanding the article into a decent stub, but I will be out of town for a week before I could even think about it.Thatcher131 03:32, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
• Delete - A spirit entity dictated this to me because this article is stupid Nobunaga24 08:19, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
• Delete. No assertion of notability, not verified. Brian G. Crawford, the so-called "Nancy Grace of AfD" 15:31, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
• Delete. No verification. If someone digs up some of those alleged Brazilian books and wants to rewrite this article for the Portuguese-language Wikipedia, more power to him. RGTraynor 21:40, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
• Delete per BGC, Traynor. Eusebeus 18:00, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
• Delete. — Mar. 29, '06 [06:45] <freakofnur_xture|talk>

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.