Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Rachel Carson Middle School

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was NO CONSENSUS. -Docg 02:07, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Rachel Carson Middle School

Rachel Carson Middle School (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) – (View log)

Multiple article AFD - middle schools in Fairfax County, Virginia. Not much history or notability, as far as I see. List of additional school articles below. Brianyoumans 05:57, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

Also included here: Cooper Middle School, Franklin Middle School (Chantilly, Virginia), Robert Frost Middle School (Fairfax County, Virginia), Glasgow Middle School, Herndon Middle School, Holmes Middle School (Fairfax County, Virginia), Langston Hughes Middle School (Fairfax County, Virginia), Washington Irving Middle School, Luther Jackson Middle School, Francis Scott Key Middle School, Joyce Kilmer Middle School, Lanier Middle School (Fairfax, Virginia) --Brianyoumans 06:07, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
I am withdrawing the nomination of Luther Jackson Middle School --Brianyoumans 07:15, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete all - Wikipedia is not the yellow pages Feeeshboy 06:10, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete all. I generally take a deletionist approach to middle schools. YechielMan 06:22, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
  • Strong delete all - Wikipedia is not the yellow pages. There should really be a sister site for this sort of stuff. WikiSchooledya? I wonder what happened to Team C? --Action Jackson IV 07:25, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete all due to lack of cited notability. DMacks 20:19, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
  • Strong keep - The article seems well-written, and I would prefer Wikipedia takes into special consideration educational institutions. I'd think articles on middle schools are far preferrable to long articles on anime characters or Transformers. By blowing away articles on middle schools, you are inherently saying fictional cartoon [[characters are preferrable content to real-life educational institutions. What sort of shameful nonsense is that? Mark the article for citation of sources if you wish, but don't delete it. --Petercorless 21:05, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
    • Firstly, no-one here has said articles on anime characters and Transformers are suitable for inclusion on Wikipedia. I'm sure there are many users who don't think most articles on fictional cartoon characters or real-life educational institutions should be included. Please don't set up straw man arguments. Secondly, "this is more notable than/preferrable to that, and we have an article on that" (which is basically what you're saying) is not a valid argument in AFD discussions. Extraordinary Machine 21:38, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete all - Middle schools with no special claims to notability do not clear the notability bar. --Hyperbole 22:29, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete all per nom. Sound like average schools. Nothing to satisfy WP:SCHOOLS3. I agree with Petercorless that I would rather have a middle school article than an article for pokemon character number 300. But for some reason the editors of Wikipedia find cartoon and game characters more exciting than humdrum schools and such. Inkpaduta 22:35, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep. To begin with, I want to remind everyone that there is not policy of notability on schools. The requirement of stating some assertion of notability is mainly created on the fact that millions of articles that are commercially based or focused individual self-promotion would be littered all over wikipedia. I believe that if any article that is not advertising in this said manner is viable. In addition, as an additional requirement, I believe that articles should have some substance and according to policy, they should have some referenced material or at least list some legitimate sources. This article appears to have some information, and I am sure that in the future, individuals could work on and improve the article based on these sources. As always, we should not be excluded articles on wikipedia on just notability alone; self-promotion and commercial characteristics of articles with illegitimate sources should be the targets of deletion. This article appears to have some possibility for growth, and I believe that if until some templates for clean up and additional sources are added, and then if no progress is made on the article within a few months, then the article can be properly assessed. --Thank You. Sukh17 Talk | Contribs 19:42, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment I am sorry, but your application of the that policy is misrepresented. No consensus has yet been reached on the matter in accordance with schools. There are only a few distinct categories of information for which policy has stated should not be here. This does not follow under one of those categories. I believe that the proper maintenance and addition of school articles will foster a higher level of involvement in wikipedia and help to introduce newer less willing users of wikipedia to become contributors as well, and in effect, become involved in a larger scope with wikipedia, adding material in a broader scope. I think that the attempt to create a entire set of articles covering the given Virginia School District was quite a commendable job, and the combined participation by several editors will only help to foster growth in all areas of wikipedia, eventually improving this excellent community tool and service. We should not be discouraging the growth of this overwhelmingly useful community portal which is turned to as a source of information by so many people. Sukh17 Talk | Contribs 2:29, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete all Does not follow WP:SCHOOLS3. --Zrulli 22:54, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
  • Extremly strong keep and improve User:Brianyoumans has listed ALL the Fairfax County Public Schools elementary and middle school pages for AFD, ALL of these listings on the basis of non-notability. Please see the AFD pages for the elementary school AFD's here and the other middle school page here. See: Wikipedia:Notability#Notability_is_not_subjective and (citing guide to deletion here) "the fact that you haven't heard of something, or don't personally consider it worthy, are not criteria for deletion. You must look for, and demonstrate that you couldn't find, any independent sources of sufficient depth"

Before continuing to tout these article's non-notabilty, please do a google search to attempt to find some notabiltiy, as well as read the references for articles that have them. If there are no references, especially references for notabilty, instead of just listing all the articles for deletion, please try to improve the articles by adding references. All pages start as stubs, and then they get improved. That is what needs to happen here. KeepOnTruckin 05:32, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

  • I would be somewhat surprised if any of these articles should be kept. Middle schools are generally considered non-notable, and I didn't see much in the way of claims of notability in any of the articles. Many of these are new schools, founded in the last decade, which makes it even less likely that there is anything notable about them.Brianyoumans 05:48, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment User:Brianyoumans has listed many articles, not just these school articles, for deletion (see his userpage here. Most edits on his account have been to get pages deleted, and not so many edits to improve pages. (Cite contribs here) Brianyoumans, I work for Fairfax County Public Schools, and I can assure you that many of their schools have notability (which I dont think they need to be included here). But hey, don't take my word for it, instead check out some of the references or do a search to find some and improve Wikipedia. Now, Inkpaduta, you make a good point here: "But for some reason the editors of Wikipedia find cartoon and game characters more exciting than humdrum schools and such". Now, to cite the guideline on deletion:"General notability is not judged by Wikipedia editors directly. The inclusion of topics on Wikipedia is a reflection of whether those topics have been included in reliable published works. Other authors, scholars, or journalists have decided whether to give attention to a topic, and in their expertise have researched and checked the information about it. Thus, the primary notability criterion is a way to determine whether "the world" has judged a topic to be notable. This is unrelated to whether a Wikipedia editor personally finds the subject remarkable or worthy." So, we as wikipedians aren't who decides whether a school or cartoon characters are more notable; the world is. The business about wikipedia not being the yellow pages or a directory, heres the part on that:WP:NOT#DIRECTORY. That is trying to keep individual businesses from advertising or promoting oon wikipedia. Now, i could be wrong, but last time I checked, a school system is not a business.
And also a question to User:Brianyoumans: did you "first do the necessary homework and look for sources yourself, and invite discussion on the talk page by using the notability template" before listing all these articles for AFD? And please see this page: User:Stifle/Don't say non-notable. KeepOnTruckin 06:06, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment. Thank You very much KeepOnTruckin. I really could not have said it better myself. The purpose of creating this assertion on notability is to prevent business and people from self-promoting themselves. Obviously this is not the case, and, in fact, this could be a much more useful article that promotes contributions around wikipedia from otherwise unlikely users. Wikipedia is a very powerful tool, and we should be working to improve and expand it, not just try to delete every article that we think should not be here. Every article can be a useful tool as long as it meets the general procedural standards such as style, non-commercialism and proper research. --Thank You. Sukh17 Talk | Contribs 6:25, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
  • It is true that I tend to spend a great deal of time getting articles deleted. "A designer knows he has achieved perfection not when there is nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away." - Antoine de Saint-Exupery --Brianyoumans 06:38, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
  • Thanks for the quote, but it doesn't really have much in terms of this discussion or the official wikipedia policy. Notability is not the only definer of an article; there are many characteristics such as the style and quality of research which can make any article that is not commercial or promotional a proper and acceptable article. Wikipedia will never be perfect, and deleting every article for just one reason is not helping at all, and is perhaps hurting. You are distancing the community that uses wikipedia, and very likely are preventing the contributions of otherwise hesitant users. I am sorry if your egotistical attitude is getting in the way of making wikipedia better and more accessible for both users and contributors. In the end, we can only benefit from any additional information that is presented to us on a factual and non-biased basis. Deletion is in no way a constructive manner by which to enhance our learning and understanding. We should observe and learn about everything, for an even greater individual said: "The unexamined life is not worth living." --Socrates --Thank You. Sukh17 Talk | Contribs 7:01, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
To "protect" a school article such as this, or any article, it is best to begin by doing searches via Google or other search engine, for notable comments. It is especially helpful if a local community paper has listings of articles involving the school. Both good and bad notations of the school should be included to ensure you are not creating a biased pro- or anti-school POV. Consider how Beach Channel High School in New York City was treated and see if you can likewise put in a good half-dozen or more references for each of these schools. The articles were well-organized and written, and I think we would be prudent to allow contributors time to get references together rather than simply slapping them down with disparaging claims of NN and requests of AfD. --Petercorless 07:13, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment The nominator has withdrawn one article. This presents a problem, as the Afd-closer could not reliably determine the intention of the votes made before the withdrawal, such as the "per nom" vote. According to Wikipedia:Articles for deletion, the articles should not have been bundled in the first place. --Vsion 07:43, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment. As per comment by Vsion, the Articles for Deletion proposals have been created very haphazardly and without a legitimate investigation by Brianyoumans. I believe some action must be taken so users such as myself and Vsion are not forced to devote our time to these discussions in lieu of improving and refining articles. --Thank You. Sukh17 Talk | Contribs 7:55, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete All. Not obviously notable. I think we're beginning to see a pattern here: the strategy of the schools clique seems to be to start with high schools, then get all middle schools in, and then elementary schools. Meanwhile we're getting articles on every g*d-darn mall in North America, people are adding half the streets in their home town, and churches, post offices and funeral parlors are not far behind. The entire thing is turning into a running battle between the elitists ( in which category I include myself ) and those who are temperamentally opposed to elitism. There's no middle ground, any more than there is between scientists and the students of the fluffy subjects, and, just as scientific thinkers/rationalists are in a minority, so the elitists will be here. It might be better just to accept that Wikipedia is screwed and create an elitist fork. Any comments ? WMMartin 17:38, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
I specifically include Luther Jackson Middle School for deletion. I can see why people are going to claim notability, but I don't think it's a particularly notable piece of "notability". If we accept it, we'll also have to accept an article on the oldest school in the district, and then someone will push for the "largest", and then the "smallest", and before we know it we'll be back to schools whose teams have won some local sports competition three years in a row. The line I want to draw excludes Luther Jackson Middle School. If only "elitists" were running the show, I might feel safer including it, but right now I don't dare give any hostages to fortune. WMMartin 17:45, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
Comment While it is true that some of the articles do not have notability, that schools that the articles are discussing do have notability, this can be found by a google search. WMMartin, if you have just glanced through the article, and, seeing no assertion of notability, decided it needs to be deleted, please help contribute to wikipedia instead of demoishing it. Also, if you are biased towards all the articles just because they are schools, may I kindly suggest that you focus your attention more upon deleting nonsense and commercial articles with absolutly no use here instead of school articles that can be improved and are reasonable inclusions on Wikipedia. To your point on accepting all sorts of school articles: Let them be accepted. Schools are not bad things, and they are allowed on wikipedia, and wikipedia is not a paper encyclopedia and therefore can have articles on everything with no limits (except those of the server, and right now this talk page is most likely taking up more space than the article itself...touche). Your account, like Brainyoumans' is one that mostly participates in deleting pages (cite your userpage) which is ok with me when you are deleting useless junk that does not belong on wikipedia. Now, I might be wrong, but a school is not useless junk, and most of us would not be editing here had we not gone to school. And lastly, let's keep the swearing down, we have user talk pages for that.--KeepOnTruckin 18:30, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete All A big load of non-notable schoolcruft. Soltak | Talk 20:15, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
  • relist individually or in small groups Doing it this way is unfair to those that are notable among the large group. Possibly batches of 3 or 4, each carefully examined to make sure the group is homogeneous. I hope nobody seriously thinks that all middle schools are always un-notable--perhaps most of them are, or just that most do not really understand what is needed--I suspect that some of the school-based projects to add the local schools may not be well thought-out, & those organizing them may themselves need some more experience in WP. DGG 06:15, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment - (same as at other AfD requests) - I believe there was a breach of proper protocol... First, you should mark the articles as unsourced. Then allow the authors/editors of the articles, say, a week in order to add citations and references as a proof of notability. ONLY ONCE some time has past in which the notability of the school can be proven or disproven should they be nominated for AfD. I think this entire swath of deletions was premature. It also causes editors to pay attention to defending their work rather than build on it. Stop this AfD movement and let people make better articles. --Petercorless 06:20, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
  • I think in the future I will in fact put these articles up in smaller batches, to make it easier for people to participate. I would point out that only one article out of 13 AFDed here has shown any notability. I think that editors need to consider seriously whether or not an article is needed before creating it. It is certainly true that some middle schools are notable, but the number is small compared to how many there are. We certainly don't need articles on all of them. --Brianyoumans 07:18, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
  • Its quite difficult to be discussing the deletion of a large group of articles on 3 different pages. Anyway, All schools are notable to me, and I am happy to read an article on any school on wikipedia, regardless of district. Brianyoumans, you have consitently stated that the reason you want these articles deleted is because they have no assertion of notability/they arent notable enough to be on wikipedia. Let me say this again, citing the guide to deletion (my apologies if I am making the same argument twice) "the fact that you haven't heard of something, or don't personally consider it worthy, are not criteria for deletion. You must look for, and demonstrate that you couldn't find, any independent sources of sufficient depth." "Lack of "notability" is not a criterion for deletion, because (among other reasons) this isn't specifically stated in the deletion policy; and since Wikipedia is not paper and has no size limits [except those of the server...not important here], there's no reason why Wikipedia shouldn't include "everything" that fits in with the other criteria, such as WP:Verifiability and no original research". If these schools are such a non-notable topic, then people wont search for them. They arent harming Wikipedia, but they are helping anyone who read them. In fact, if "we delete articles solely due to their obscurity, currently obscure, or seemingly obscure, subjects may gain more popular interest at a later date. In such a case, deleted articles will constitute a loss of valuable (and perhaps, in the transitory world of the internet, irreproducible) information." "Non-notable" is a non-NPOV designation, therefore not abiding by policy. The person who authored the article probably believes that the topic is notable enough to be included. "Writing 'Delete, non-notable' is not about whether the articles should be in Wikipedia, but rather that it is a quick phrase that does not tell everyone else why the article is non-notable". Brianyoumans, you need to prove that all these school articles aren't notable. KeepOnTruckin 04:32, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete as not notable — MrDolomite • Talk 18:46, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
  • Merge into school district article or Delete. Also if this pair of group deletions is approved, then {{Fairfax County Public Schools}} need to go to TfD. Vegaswikian 01:15, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete some. If notability is a problem, them the article should be deleted. However, some schools, like Luther Jackson, so have some notability. These articles should be kept. Jordan 04:08, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.