Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Puppet state

This page is an archive of the proposed deletion of the article below. Further comments should be made on the article's talk page, if it exists; or after the end of this archived section. The result of the debate was speedy keep --Jtkiefer 07:05, Jun 25, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Puppet state

Page based soley on what users believe to be true, almost none of these puppet states have ever been proven to be puppets so this article is patently unencyclopedic Jtkiefer 05:17, Jun 25, 2005 (UTC)

• Comment please take note of this excerpt from the article States or governments accused of being puppets since 1900, word accused has been bolded emphasis. Jtkiefer 05:22, Jun 25, 2005 (UTC)
• Speedy keep. Stupidest VfD nomination ever. — Phil Welch 05:32, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC)
  • Considering the shape of the article, VfD is tempting. I do no object to keeping the article, though, unless that awful original research "list of countries accused of being puppet states" list is restored. 172 05:35, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC)
    • How about verifying it instead of blindly destroying information? — Phil Welch 05:43, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC)
      • I do not need to verify it, and indeed I should not. Wikipedia is not the place for original research-- not mine nor anyone else's, as it lacks the capacity to develop its own criteria for such categorization schemes and then apply them. See my comments on the VfD page for Sixteen known nuclear crises of the Cold War for the same argument. 172 05:49, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC)
        • That is absurd--the list simply correlates known accused puppet states with occasional evaluative input as to the validity (in more famous cases). You might have a point at least in asking for cited sources, though I am not going to take responsibility for the material I didn't add personally. --TJive 06:08, Jun 25, 2005 (UTC)
        • It's a matter of historical record that North Korea considers South Korea a US puppet state, and that the US made the accusation that East Germany, Poland, et. al. were Soviet puppet states. That much is easily verifiable. Why not let others verify it instead of just destroying information? That's tantamount to vandalism. — Phil Welch 06:59, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC)
• Keep. I think that the nomination brings up some excellent points about this article, but the concept of the article itself is a good one. I just think it should be changed from a list to just a discussion of the concept of puppet states and possibly some historical examples. The beginning of the article is on the right track. (But to call this the "stupidest VfD nomination ever" is ... odd. User:Jtkiefer makes a decent argument, this isn't a nonsensical nomination.) kmccoy (talk) 05:45, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC)
• I would like to clarify my reasoning behind this VFD, I have nominated due to the fact that this lists blind examples of accused puppet states, if this were about the concept of a Puppet state then this would fall right under wikipedia guidelines. Jtkiefer 05:47, Jun 25, 2005 (UTC)

• Keep. The comment, "States or governments accused of being puppets since 1990," is a precondition to neutrality on the matter for including examples--the point is rather elementary, and it preceded any input of mine. You say that, "almost none of these puppet states have ever been proven to be puppets," but refrain from giving criteria as to what constitutes such as proof--the point of the article is that it is an accusation leveled by individuals, organizations, and/or governments against other governments. It is hard to see that one may credibly deny that this is so, regardless of whether the accusation is true or not, and in several cases within the very list the quality of the accusation is lessened by a brief recount of the relevant history.

For an example take China; the communists receieved substantial assistance from Stalin and played a subservient role to its policy in the communist world from the establishment of the People's Republic, yet it came to resent its secondary status as well as Khrushchev's "revisionism" and broke in the coming decades, with an attempt to achieve an hegemony all its own. Hence, "Red China" was often considered in the west to be the Kremlin's implacable ally but this later proved to be farcical, and the point was played upon by American strategists from the Nixon to Reagan administrations.

I also took consideration into the matter of neutrality as it regards the order and listing of puppet "groups", with a simple chronological outlook--the first listed accused puppet state came from the US, then the USSR, and so on (as well as which state came before another on the same list). More groupings could be added, such as with France's colonialism, the coups, and counter-coups, but this is not an area I am knowledgeable in and requires that others participate, not simply vote to delete the matter.

Finally, the supposition of deletion itself rests upon the mere listing but the same attributions of semantic, relativist, propagandistic, and emotive rationales for terms can be found in the existence of articles for kulak, treason, freedom, resistance movement, freedom fighter, enemy of the people, satellite state, aggression, genocide, dictator, terrorist and numerous others--this should not imply that the existence and importance of the term be negated nor that it may actually be applied in many cases with species reasoning or not. In short, this dispute is more appropriate for the talk page and not at all proper in deciding for all-out deletion.

--TJive 05:48, Jun 25, 2005 (UTC)

• Speedy Keep I realize now (after discussions with wikipedia users) that this article does have hope if changed and that I probably made a mistake listing it for VFD in a case where I could have been Bold and edited it myself and with input of other users reworked this into a good article on the concept of a puppet state. Jtkiefer 06:02, Jun 25, 2005 (UTC)
• Speedy Keep and NPOV it. - Sikon 06:22, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC)
• puppet government and puppet regime redirect to puppet state. The last section of puppet points to it.) Anthony Appleyard 06:25, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be placed on a related article talk page, if one exists; in an undeletion request, if it does not; or below this section.