Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Pro-Palestinian Lobby

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. —Xyrael / 15:47, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Pro-Palestinian Lobby

The article doesn't make it clear if such a thing actually exists or just is some conspiracy. After this article was created the user labels the among others Montreal-based student group Solidarity for Palestinian Human Rights and the American Jewish Voice for Peace as members of that so-called lobby. It all seems very dubious to me. Bertilvidet 20:22, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

  • Delete. Sounds like a short POV screed, definitely not referring to a real group such as the American Association for Palestinian Equal Rights. --Ginkgo100 talk · e@ 20:56, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete. Fails WP:V. Leuko 04:24, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
  • It is WP:V. Compare to the China Lobby entry: "In United States politics, the China lobby refers to any special interest group acting on behalf of a Chinese government to influence Sino-American relations." --Gabi S. 09:35, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
  • That is a summary of the various different groups that were referred to in the media as a/the "China lobby". This proposes a single group, the "pro-Palestinian Lobby", with some interesting properties, something I doubt is confirmed by any reliable source. In addition, it has some serious NPOV issues (to say the least). - makomk 20:15, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
  • I changed it to be similar to the China Lobby, as you suggested. Can you explain what NPOV issues are there? I don't see any. --Gabi S. 07:47, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete Reeks of conspiracy theory and POV-pushing. Looking online, although the phrase "pro-Palestinian lobby" is used by various places (and even some reliable sources), usually it's either shorthand to refer to people espousing particular views in an organisation, conference, etc (who and what views varies, and is generally only obvious from either the context or due to a qualifier), part of a description, or used to contrast with the supposed pro-Israeli lobby. Unless someone can cite a reliable source for the information in the document, it needs to go. - makomk 20:15, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep The phrase has been verifiably used. It is no worse than the China lobby. The page has plenty of potential for development. Some people here seem to think that the very existence of the page is POV, but I disagree - lobbying is an inherent part of the political process and does not carry intrinsically negative connotations. Would you say that a page on people who lobby for the disabled "reeks of POV" or describe it as "POV screed?" Hope not. This is no different. If you think the page is biased change it, but it should certainly exist. Zargulon 18:55, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
    • Borderline at best. The phrase "pro-Palestinian lobby" has been used in places meeting WP:RS as shorthand for "the members of some organisation lobbying for some pro-Palestinian (or anti-Israel) action" (where the organisation and actions are implicit from the context) but that doesn't make it worthy of an article IMO. The question is, is it used in the sense described in the article? Remember, the article as it stood alleged that varous groups made up something called the "Pro-Palestinian Lobby", and were all busy spreading Palestinian propaganda. There have been some small improvements since, but I think you can see why I thought (and still think) it has serious POV (and verifiability) issues. -- makomk 22:03, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
      • Comment Yes, I can. The emphasis on propaganda, and the implication that the contributory groups are organized rather than disparate, are dubious. But I don't think this page is a suitable candidate for deletion. Zargulon 06:38, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete. Per nom. Idunn 11:07, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete. Looks to me like WP:OR. Would need a reputable paper/article cited arguing that the listed groups are part of a lobby to sustain this article. Rwendland 08:48, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep or turn into a category. I think that this is a legitimate grouping. While there is no roof body, this does not change the fact there is a lobby. A lobby doesn't have to be a formal organization. For instance, the US Tobacco Lobby, while containing some organizations dedicated to lobbying, also may be supported by actual companies like Big Tobacco, who are, as such, also part of the lobby. Or for an example relating to Wikipedia, we have our Jewish lobby, our Arab lobby, we have our anti-globalisation lobby, marxist-lobby, and quite a few others. They are just groupings of users who band together and try and have a certain POV (dirty term) be the norm in certain articles. So depending on your definition of lobby - mine being one which I believe is well-definied - there is a pro-Palestinian lobby. Evolver of Borg 09:43, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
  • Rename into Anti-Israel lobby which is not the same, or merge with Anti-Zionism. Most of these groups could care less about the Palestinians. Do they protest against recruitment of Palestinian youth for suicide bombing? Do they protest when Palestinians are mistreated (remember Black September in Jordan, or Kuwait after 1990, or other Arab countries where they are kept in misery, their rights severely restricted, etc. ←Humus sapiens ну? 20:36, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment I guess most of they don't, because they are lobbying e.g. the US government, who can't do anything directly about any of that stuff.. they probably lobby the US govt for aid money though, which is not in itself anti-israel. Zargulon 20:44, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
Wrong. Please take a look at the article: this is not about money, but rather about politics. Funny you should mention money: until Hamas came to power, these groups were silent about rampant corruption and outright larceny of money appropriated for Palestinians. See Suha Arafat- this where the money earmarked for refugees go. ←Humus sapiens ну? 21:40, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment So make a Criticisms subheading on the page and put all that stuff. I still don't see how you have justified renaming the page. Zargulon 06:39, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
Comment Humus sapiens should find sources for what he posits. His suggest right now is no less OR like the current contents of the article. --Ben Houston 03:11, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep. The lobby simply exists, and deserves an article. It recently organized an international conference in Stockholm that raised $500,000,000 for the Gaza Strip alone [1]. How do you call it? A lobby. --Gabi S. 15:00, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete per nom. —Khoikhoi 22:12, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete until properly sourced Why not move onto a sub page of the user until some real sources are found. It's just unsourced and as such it appears to be OR. Again, find real sources. I say this as the primary author (so far) of the articles Arab lobby in the United States and Israel lobby in the United States -- these two may be attacked as NPOV but no one is claiming that I just made up both subjects because I relied heavily upon reputable sources. --Ben Houston 03:10, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
  • Did you see the fund-raising articles recently? ([2] and many others) The people who organize these things are part of a loosely-organized lobby, which is not formal and doesn't go back to 1973 like the Arab lobby, but nevertheless exists and deserves an article. Moreover, as I see it, the Arab lobby is associated more with past events, whereas the Palestinian lobby has began to have some momentum only after 2000 and its future lies ahead. --Gabi S. 09:33, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
Aha, now it becomes really interesting. That conference was organized by the governments of Sweden, Norway and Spain. So they constitute this Pro-Palestinian lobby? This should be made clear in the article, and you should find sources for the relationship between these governments and the different NGO's you claim also is a part of the lobby! Bertilvidet 12:37, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
  • You are correct, there are some sources, but more have to be added... That's why I marked it as "stub". I believe that the article will develop over time. --Gabi S. 12:59, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
My above comment was ironical. I simply dont believe that there is any sources confirming your claim, that there exists such a lobby uniting all kind of NGO's and even several governments. Bertilvidet 15:33, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
  • The article looks like its going to be deleted. For now I have copied its contents to the talk page of Arab lobby in the United States to your work won't go to waste. --Ben Houston 15:03, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete - Sounds like the typical tit-for-tat stuff, diversionary tactics, especially in light of recent AIPAC controversies. The "Palestinian Lobby," if it can even be called that, is not, by any stretch of the imagination, notable.--Kitrus 11:39, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
  • This not-notable group of people just raised hundreds of millions. And someone here [3] calls them an informal lobby and says, "Only about 70,000 Palestinians live in the United States, but their views have received disproportionate attention because of their political activism. ". Yes, maybe it can even be called a lobby. --Gabi S. 12:59, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete - This article is propoganda. Immediate delete. - ResurgamII 13:03, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment So fix it. Why shouldn't people who sympathise with Palestinians (or even anti-Israel people) lobby world governments for aid money and policy changes? Why shouldn't there be an article about them? Zargulon 13:19, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.