Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Polish Cathedral style

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. Any rename left to editorial discretion. WjBscribe 05:03, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Polish Cathedral style

Polish Cathedral style (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) – (View log)

Delete - prod removed. This appears to be a neologism. Searching for "polish cathedral style" turns up a grand total of 23 google hits outside Wikipedia, most of which are mirrors. Searching for the first several churches on the list turns up no listings which mention the 'Polish Cathedral' style. Each of the churches is identified in the article as being of another architectural style and it seems odd that every church of this supposed 'Polish Cathedral' style would be of a completely different style. The only source in the article, added when the prod was removed, is a book in which the term appears on three pages. There do not appear to be any sources that are primarily about this term as opposed to simply using the term, as required by WP:NEO. Otto4711 02:56, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

  • Delete, term seems originated and only used in citation of one architectural historian, thus not an encyclopedic topic. Perhaps worth a mention in some other article, but not a style that has a broadly accepted definition. --Dhartung | Talk 04:39, 28 April 2007 (UTC)
    • Keep I am the author of this article, so that there is no suspicion of duplicity involved. I would like to address some of the concerns made about the article "'Polish Cathedral' style". I am new to Wikipedia so I apologize in advance. I should have been clearer when first writing the article about what is meant by architectural style and how buildings from this period of time can draw heavily from a 'gothic' or 'renaissance'/' baroque' theme yet in the scheme of all the other elements involved in a buildings design still be a part of the same style. I hope that I have clarified this sufficiently in the said article, and I will work to fix this if you feel that this is not up to par. Yes, the term is somewhat obscure, I know that not everyone is a student of Chicago History like myself, however there is literature about the 'Polish Cathedral' style, but I am under the gun here unexpectedly and in short notice to prove that I didn't make this term up. I have already added a number of references that I have found in my notes or my little library of 'Chicagoviana' and will be adding more as i comb my notes for them. As for online references, I would go to the PGSA database they have a google option and they have an option where you can indeed look up a good number of Chicago Polish Churches,(remember not all Polish churches are 'Polish Cathedral's the term is actually 'Polish Cathedral' but it seems too confusing/ misleading so I add the word style) and look up St. Mary of the Angels Church, or St. Adalbert's. The Website for St. Hyacinth Basilica also will use the label of Polish Cathedral' in reference to itself. If there is anything that I can do to assuage any concerns please tell me on the talk page- --Orestek | Talk, 29 April 2007 (UTC)Orestek 09:26, 28 April 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment - please be assured that you haven't done anything wrong here and no one is suggesting that you're acting inappropriately. If you read WP:NEO, which is the section of the Manual of Style that deals with neologisms, you'll see that for Wikipedia to have an article on a term, there need to be reliable sources which are about the term, not just that use it. In looking at the material you've added, it appears that they are all things that use the term as opposed to being about the term. Otto4711 15:35, 28 April 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete WP is supposed to reflect, not push, knowledge. This is WP:NEO merging with WP:OR. Eusebeus 15:20, 28 April 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep and rename. The style seems notable, but the name may be different. I'd strongly suggest providing quotes from the sources - how do they refer to those buildings (maybe 'Polish church style')? Also, add page numbers, possible Google Books hits, and citations for each individual church in the list.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk  16:28, 28 April 2007 (UTC)
  • Again, note that there must be sources about the term, not just sources that use the term. Otto4711 17:19, 28 April 2007 (UTC)
Note that wrong term/title merits WP:RM, not WP:AFD. The article and its sources indicate that such phenomena exists, the problem is that the name as chosen by the creator is not very popular.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk  17:59, 28 April 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment Perhaps Piotrus is right, insofar that much of the literature uses the title 'Polish Churches', or 'Polish Church Architecture'. I have cited a number of articles that use this term, such as the article by Marya Lilien in Chicago History Magazine, as well as the page numbers , and I will be adding more --Orestek 17:10, 28 April 2007 (UTC)
Can you cite what term do they use, exactly?-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk  17:59, 28 April 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment Often the term is just 'Polish Church Architecture' or 'the architectural style of Polish Churches' because of the context of most of these pieces is referring to local histories, as in Roman Godzak's Catholic Churches of Detroit Arcadia Publishing 2004, John Smallshaw's upcoming book about the Polish Churches of Milwaukee, or Catholicism, Chicago style.

In the chapter entitled Parish and Neighborhood in Polonia in Ellen Skerrett's work titled Sacred Space from the volume Catholicism, Chicago Style, on p153 we read "In terms of sheer size and monumentality, Polish Catholic churches on the Near Northwest Side surpassed the the parish churches constructed by most German, Bohemian and Irish congregations. The architectural style promoted by the Resurrectionists used Renaissance and Baroque forms molded to distinctively promote their vision of Polish history and identity"

Kantowicz writes in The Archdiocese of Chicago: A Journey of Faith "The preference of the Polish League for Renaissance and Baroque forms seems more clear cut. The glory days of the Polish Commonwealth came in the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries when it formed the largest state in Europe... The architectural style of Chicago's Polish churches in Chicago reflect this, particularly the magnificent edifices of Worthmann and Steinbach built along the Milwaukee avenue corridor on the Northwest Side, reflected the renaissance glory of Polish Catholicism".

Peter Williams in his book Houses of God: Region, Religion, and Architecture in the United States on p.179 writes "in Detroit and Chicago especially, a distinctive genre of church building emerged among Polish communities, the "Polish Cathedral". Where most Catholic churches were built in grander or humbler variations and Gothic and Romanesque themes popular across the country, the ambitious prelates in the great Lakes Polonias often chose to make monumental statements in the Renaissance style of their mother country. The scale of these structures was often enormous, both in the great size of these parishes and the episcopal ambitions of their clerical leaders... Still visible from the freeways, many of these "cathedrals" such as St. Stanislaus Kostka in Chicago now serve African-American or Latino constituencies while others have benn cose dby their Archbishops as no longer econmically viable".

This is the heart of the dilemma in finding a title for the article on this architectural style. I had found the term 'North American Polish Church style' or variants thereof awkward, and the term 'Polish Cathedral' by itself to be slightly misleading (because they are not in fact cathedrals and they are not in Poland), which is why I titled the article 'Polish Cathedral' style, the lesser of all evils I thought. The subject is notable; we spent a good deal of time on the matter in my History of Chicago class, there's a good deal of literature on the topic, and they're major tourist attractions in Chicago (Accenting Chicago has a tour devoted exclusiely to them and Chicago Neighborhood Tours tours a number of the Major ones) Given the widespread colloquial use of the term here (every neighborhood patriot that has a historic Polish Church in Chicago will tell you that "their church" is "The Polish Cathedral"). What are your suggestions?----Orestek 21:57, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

  • Note: This debate has been included in the list of Poland-related deletions. --  Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk  16:28, 28 April 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep and rename - notable and finely referenced, but should have a new title. Biruitorul 18:42, 28 April 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep after all the references were added today, this is a keeper. This is the desired result of a prod or AfD. TonyTheTiger (talk/cont/bio) 19:52, 28 April 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep certainly notable & now refed-up. Maybe rename. Johnbod 20:29, 28 April 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep and rename to something like "Architecture of Polish churches in the United States" or "Polish American church architecture" etc. nadav 23:42, 28 April 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep Not certain about the name, but I certainly knew this article was about the Polish churches in the midwest, or Polish-Chicago culture. Thanks for creating the article, I look forward to reading the books. Deletion is not appropriate for the article, but renaming may be. Sometimes the title is not what is used, but defines what the article is about. KP Botany 00:56, 29 April 2007 (UTC)
Comment - If " " were allowed in titles, I would go for ' "Polish Cathedral" style', but I rather think they aren't. Johnbod 00:59, 29 April 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep I would like to encourage Orestek (talk) to please include the above four solid paragraphs of information in the actual article beginning with opinions by Skerrett, Kantowicz, Williams, and the fact that there are tours in Chicago devoted exclusively to those churches. I read the article and found it negative in tone which I believe might have prompted this unnecessary proposal for deletion. I do not understand why, right from the start, the article attempts to diminish the importance of this phenomenon in North-American architecture by stating repeatedly that the churches are not cathedrals. They don't have to be, in order to represent a style, which is the "Cathedral style" of Polish-American church. The cathedral and the cathedral style are distinctly different things. Througout the article overt criticism is provided from the most peculiar of sources, like the Chicago's Protestant elites. Such approach is not only misleading. This is but a red flag for all involved parties. Secondly, there's not a single photograph included in the article which makes it look even more suspicious. The list of churches inside the table links not to individual churches, but to saints... another red flag. In my opinion this article is a perfect example of how not to write for Wikipedia about North-American architecture. However, I have no problem with the title of this article unlike some Wikipedians. As Peter Williams wrote in his book Houses of God: Region, Religion, and Architecture in the United States (p.179) "in Detroit and Chicago especially, a distinctive genre of church building emerged among Polish communities, the "Polish Cathedral". Good enough for me. --Poeticbent  talk  02:42, 29 April 2007 (UTC)
    • Comment Okay, there's a source for the title. KP Botany 02:51, 29 April 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep and rename to avoid further controversies. - Darwinek 08:01, 30 April 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep and rename OK
    (The preceeding unsigned comment was added by User:Umedard (talk) as of 08:13, 30 April 2007)
  • Keep I wasn't familiar with the term, but I knew exactly what it meant before I read the article. This is an actual style, and you can see these churches in Pittsburgh and Detroit, as well as Chicago. Not all Polish parishes were built in the Polish Cathedral style. It is a style that is a major contrast to the austere Congregationalist white clapboard hall of some Protestant churches in the US, as the article mentions.Pustelnik 15:47, 30 April 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep/cleanup. Seems adequately sourced on the topic of the article, but it has some point-of-view statements, and I was expecting the wikilinks in the table of churches to go to an article on the actual church. Gimmetrow 21:36, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.