Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Phil Ondich

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus, kept with no objection to merging (until enough sources are found to write a more substantial article). — CharlotteWebb 23:27, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Phil Ondich

I find it hard to credit the notability of a rock musician who scores fewer unique Googles than I do. If there are any non-trivial independent sources, they are not cited. Perhaps it is possible to have a band of some level of notability without conferring notability on every member. Well, yes, actually, it definitely is. Guy (Help!) 19:47, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

• Weak delete - it's fairly easy to determine that he was actually in the business and in these bands; the bands are obviously notable enough to stick around, so it would then follow that he likely edges over the guidelines. But, I find a total of three Google News Archives hits for him, two of them in languages I don't know; none of the Google hits I looked at were what you'd call reliable sources. If someone turns up a source or two to give him some connection to coverage, I'd reconsider. Tony Fox (arf!) 03:40, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
• Keep. I added some minimal sourcing that covers the circumstances around his departure from Black Label Society. The lack of material specifically pertaining to him is a problem, but the normal solution of merging to his band's article isn't a good idea in this case, since both of his bands are notable. A standalone article may not be the perfect solution, but I think it's as good as we're going to get at present. -Hit bull, win steak^(Moo!) 21:27, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
• Delete. I looked for sources too, but didn't find anything better than what's already in the article. With such weak references, I don't see enough to support an independant claim of notability. It seems like his main claim to fame is as a founder of BLS, and that can be adequately discussed in that article.--Kubigula (talk) 22:42, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so that consensus may be reached
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, W.marsh 13:41, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

• Keep - Black Label Society is a pretty big and popular band. Being a member for even a few years is notable to me. I think we should keep it, mark it as a stub, and perhaps list it to the Wikiproject on musicians. If it doesnt improve within a few weeks, relist it. Plm209 (talk • contribs • count) 14:19, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
• Keep A notable musician who has recorded and toured with various "major label" acts. He may not be as well known as the drummer for say Coldplay (whoever that clown is...) but then again, if someone is looking for biographies of lesser known musicians, where should they turn to? Not Wikipedia if AfD's like this pass. Looking up facts on the "little musicians" that have no bio's elsewhere is what drew me to WP in the first place. Hamster Sandwich 21:50, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
  • The problem with this argument is that if there are no bios elsewhere then we have no basis on which to write an article. If you want to do some legwork and dredge up at least one substantial reference, I would probably support keeping the article. One substantive reference + membership in 2 notable bands would be enough for me.--Kubigula (talk) 21:59, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
    • I don't see any problems with the argument I presented. The references provided are not trustworthy? Is there a question of veracity? What would constitute a "substantial" reference in this case? What seems to you to be his "main claim to fame" is his association with BLS. When I began this article I had no idea he was even involved with that group. He was also a member of Raging Slab (RCA Records, Def American) who were on at least two world tours opening for RHCP's. Now, maybe someone might say, gee I wonder who the guy playing drums for Slab that night was? I wonder what he's doing now? Maybe I should check Wikipedia! Oh no wait, they never have anybody in there if there not on the top 40 this week. The problem with your argument is that if there is some little bit of information elsewhere about Ondich, then it negates the need for a bio in WP. Is this the intention of your rebuttal? Hamster Sandwich 22:10, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

I wasn't so much aiming to rebut your argument as I was trying to offer a suggestion on what I think would push this article over the hurdle. Personally, there is little I like better than to see an article improve during AfD and become a keeper. If we could add at least one decent reliable source where Ondich was a primary subject, I think we could get there. I spent some time looking, but I couldn't find such a reference. As it stands, the little info we have about him can be perfectly adequately covered in the relevant band articles; there really isn't much justification for having a separate article just on Ondich. For example, all the article says about his involvement with Raging Slab is that he was once their drummer (one of 20, as it turns out). There's more written about his involvement with BLS, but again, nothing that couldn't easily be covered in the band's article.--Kubigula (talk) 03:51, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

I still disagree most strongly with your reasoning to delete this stand alone biography. You must be absolutely sure that this musician will never ever again be involved with any other major label acts. I wish I had that kind of sense of prescience regarding such individuals. We have here a musician who has played in more than one major label act already. We have a person who meets the criteria for an entry into the Wikipedia. End of story. Hamster Sandwich 23:35, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

If he joins another major act or gets media coverage, then he almost certainly would be notable. However, Wikipedia is not a crystal ball. Also, being a member of a major label act is not a criteria for inclusion. As far as I can see, the best argument for meeting a notability guideline is that he has been on a major tour, under WP:MUSIC. However, that is one of the weaker criteria. You are free to disagree, but I don't think you advance your argument by being dismissive of opposing views.--Kubigula (talk) 02:40, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

• Delete Non-notable member of two notable bands; no non-trivial references. Include a line or two about him in those bands' articles and be done with it. Closenplay 18:47, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
• Delete per nom. Stoic atarian 22:37, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
• Note: This debate has been included in the list of Music-related deletions. -- John Vandenberg 22:02, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
• Keep as per WP:BAND - member of notable bands. Corvus cornix 22:44, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

I'm not trying to badger keep advocates, but I don't see "member of notable band" on WP:BAND. I'm fairly close to the edge on this AfD.--Kubigula (talk) 00:05, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

More than that, he was a non-notable member of those bands. The front-man or main songwriter I could see arguing for but he was the drummer (not to take anything away from drummers—it's just they're less visible as far as general recognition of their contributions to a band). While he was an original member of Black Label Society, he was only in the band for two out of the band's nine-year (so far) history (the guy who replaced him is still in the band). And he was in Raging Slab for only a year, and that was after they were no longer a major label band. He hasn't been involved with any notable bands since he left BLS in 2000. Also, there's the fact that there are no non-trivial references (the Drum! article is an interview with his replacement in BLS). Even a human-interest story about his struggles and what he's been up to the last seven years would help. (Please be advised that, like Kubigula, I am not trying to badger any "keep" advocates; I'm only attempting to clarify the points I made in my "vote".) Closenplay 01:31, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

WP:BAND says Contains at least one member who was once a part of or later joined a band that is otherwise notable. If a band can inherit notability, then why don't the members of the notable band have that same notability? Based on my reading of the above, any other band that Phil Ondich would join would inherit his notability for being the member of a notable band, so why doesn't he inherit the notability on his own? Corvus cornix 18:01, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

You left off the second half of that sentence from WP:BAND: "note that it is often most appropriate to use redirects in place of articles on side projects, early bands and such". Closenplay 21:25, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

• Comment I was hoping to change my own mind, so I went through pages of google hits and searched the sites of every drum magazine I could find. However, there really does not appear to be anything else of any substance available about this guy online. I could support a redirect to BLS, as his name is a plausible search term, but it doesn't look like there is much potential for this article to grow beyond a stub at this point.--Kubigula (talk) 02:28, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.