Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Paul Rodgers (footballer)

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. W.marsh 20:52, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Paul Rodgers (footballer)

Paul Rodgers (footballer) (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) – (View log)

Contested prod. Football player who has not yet played a first team game for a club in a fully professional league. Tx17777 17:18, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

  • Keep - is a full professional and a registered first-team squad member. [1] Qwghlm 17:25, 20 October 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete. The concensus on notability of football players is pretty clear and is summed up well by the nom. Being included in the squad given to UEFA at the start of the competition does not mean he will even get as far sitting on the bench. If and when he gets a first team game the article can be recreated. Nuttah68 17:26, 20 October 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep - registered first-team squad member at a very large club. ArtVandelay13 21:41, 20 October 2007 (UTC)
  • This discussion has been included in WikiProject Football's list of football (soccer) related deletions. Malcolmxl5 21:42, 20 October 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep - As per discussion above. Da-rb 21:44, 20 October 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete - As per Nuttah68 and per nom. Probably only given a UEFA squad number because he was under 18 in September and therefore doesn't count towards the squad quota anyway. Can be recreated if he does play. Peanut4 22:02, 20 October 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete Has not played in a fully-professional league (WP:BIO). пﮟოьεԻ 57 22:58, 20 October 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete He gets an article when he plays for the team, not before. Nick mallory 01:38, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep - as per Qwghlm and ArtVandelay13.
I would say he is a lot more notable (in the general, non-Wiki sense of the word) than Robert Grant of Accrington Stanley, but slightly less notable than Sergio Tejera of Chelsea FC. I questioned the absolute requirement of professional league football in the current notability criteria in a discussion on Talk:WPF, with the discussion, you might say, ending 2-2. The current criteria seems clear; appearance in a game in a professional league is notable, wich means one game in League 2 is notable but a glowing cup-run in a youth World Cup or maybe even the FA cup is not. However, I am questioning the concensus on the strict interpretation of the criteria. It seems half of those who have voted in this discussion would say that appearance in a professional league not is an absolutely necessary requirement for notability. My interpretation of AfD:Curtis Osano is that professional league football not is required for notability and that there is no concensus on keeping such a literal interpretation of the criteria. I'm sorry to say, but maybe we need to have a new discussion about the notability criteria. This time with more than four participants. Sebisthlm 01:45, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep - he's a member of the Champions League squad, which tells you something - out of the 30 players or whatever in the reserve squad (including the 2 million pound signing Havard Nordtveit, who is supposedly "more notable" than this guy according to Wikipedia rules), he is one of the few that is considered close to the first team. Anyway, I think it's been fairly established that someone who has a first-team squad number for a top tier club is notable himself. ugen64 03:09, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep - Professional football/soccer player in a very prestigious club, arguably one of the best in the world. To say he hasn't yet "played" on the field in a game for the team and therefore fails the Athletes clause in WP:BIO is Wikilawyering semantics. --Oakshade 05:24, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete. Fails both the letter and the spirit of WP:BIO. Recreate when and if he makes a first team appearance. - fchd 08:12, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
Looking at the talk history of WP:BIO and what the writers purposes were, this person very much passes the spirit of WP:BIO. Standing members of professional teams are notable. --Oakshade 23:12, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
He isn't a member of the team yet though. Once he is, and makes an appearance, then he passes. - fchd 11:15, 23 October 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete - no appearances in a fully professional league, so fails WP:BIO. Article can be recreated if and when the player fulfils the criteria for inclusion in Wikipedia. robwingfield «T•C» 08:21, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep. So we keep everybody in the Arsenal squad except him? And what about the other Arse squad members who haven't made a first team performance? He wouldn't be in the squad aged 18 unless he had huge potential (£$£$), and even if he doesn't make it at Arsenal he can certainly play at lower league clubs right now. This means the article will be recreated before long if it is deleted. Operating 23:56, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
    • Comment - as per WP:BIO, any player that hasn't made an appearance in a fully professional league is not notable enough for an article in Wikipedia. A fairly quick end to this AFD. If Rodgers makes an appearances, his article can be undeleted. We shouldn't assume anything... the player may have potential, but first he has to deliver that potential before being worthy of an article. robwingfield «T•C» 00:04, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
      • WP:BIO says no such thing. --Oakshade 00:35, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
      • Comment. WP:BIO doesn't say a player has to make 1+ professional appearances to be notable does it? I've never seen that...there are already far more sources for this player than many lower league players who have article pages. Agreed wp isn't a crystal ball but unless he gets hit by lightning in the next few months he'll be back on wp and the Afd will be something of a waste of time. This begs the question why delete?...it also begs the question why did i bother replying? so i'll leave it here, and just be happy the Arse decided to find an English player for a change :) Operating 00:37, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete, WP:BIO says "Competitors who have played in a fully professional league" are generally notable". Awarding a jersey number to a player is not enough to give him notability, and moreover notability is not temporary. --Angelo 09:09, 23 October 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment - By "Competitors who have played in a fully professional league are generally notable" alone, it's not possible to draw the conclusion that competitors who not have played in such a league automatically (not even generally) is NN. Sebisthlm 09:40, 23 October 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment. Quite right, they can be notable for other reasons without having the appearances. However, in this case the only claim to notability is being given a squad number by a Premier League team. There is no evidence of international youth honours, awards or the such like. Nuttah68 09:55, 23 October 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment. Arsenal have the best youth system in England and possibly the best in the world. Getting a shirt in the full squad does make him notable in my opinion. If he'd merely got a shirt number for say Fulham FC, this would be different. Operating 10:42, 23 October 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment. He is in the squad to make up the numbers of the six home grown players under CL regulations and barring an injury crisis is never going to play a CL game. To date he's not even played a League or FA Cup game, the usual route for a young player coming through. Nuttah68 10:59, 23 October 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment. He signed his first professional contract at the beginning of this season. The FA Cup hasn't started yet and Arsenal have recently played their first round of the League Cup. Operating 12:21, 23 October 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment. Exactly, he has done nothing that satisfies the guidelines and no one has offered anything else that could be construed as achieving notability in another way. That is apart from a number POV statements that being a player who has recently signed his first professional contract at Arsenal makes him notable as that is more important than doing the same at another club. Nuttah68 12:42, 23 October 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment. I'm afraid you can't have read this discussion very carefully. Let me sum up the arguments for keeping this article (which are basically the same for all 'keepers'. 1) Yes, we know the general criteria normally requires professional league football. 2) We, however, don't agree with this criteria, either in this particular case or in principle, and think that inclusion in a squad for the Champions League (the World's most notable club competition) for a club as Arsenal (one of the World's most notable clubs) asserts notability, even if the player hasn't yet played in the competition.
The reason to oppose the criteria is that there is no distinction of the importance of different professional competitions (i.e. an appearence in League 2 is equally notable as an appearence in the PL) wich is contrary to the very concept of notability. I don't think it is such an outlandish idea that the requirement of appearence could be different depending on the importance of the club or the competition. Perhaps notability for a League 2 footballer should require more than just one appearence in the league, while youth internationals bought by big clubs for millions of pounds might be concidered notable even before their debut. And POV? Isn't that the whole point with these discussions? Especially when the quote from WP:BIO that you would like us all to just quote over and over is so vague. My question to you, Nuttah68, is do you really think that Robert Grant is more notable than Rodgers. And please try to answer without just referring to the criteria in WP:BIO. Respectfully, Sebisthlm 02:27, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
  • CommentNo, I've read the discussion and followed it thank you. You want to change the guidelines, fair enough I have no problem with you starting a discussion in the appropriate place. However, that guideline was based on the reasoning that match reports in newspapers meet the general notability guideline of "The person must have been the subject of published secondary sources that are reliable, intellectually independent, and independent of the subject. - If the depth of coverage is not substantial, then multiple independent sources may need to be cited to establish notability" If someone offers a claim to notability based on different critera using independent coverage rather than POV statements I will reconsider. Nuttah68 08:39, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment. Wikipedia has guidelines but not rules. The purpose of talk pages is to come to a consensus based on individual circumstances. That is what we are doing right now, the guidelines dont fully apply in this case. Operating 22:18, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment - Yes it's true I oppose the current criteria in principle (or at least the literal interpretation of it) and want to modify it. I wouldn't be so smug as to take for granted that all those who want to keep this article agree with me on this though. It is possible to want to keep the article in this particular case, without actually wanting to change the criteria. Either you might concede that the article doesn't meet WP:BIO, but want to keep the article anyway by WP:IGNORE, or you might think that the article, if not meets the criteria, doesn't at least conflict with it. As I commented on Angelo's quote of WP:BIO, by "Competitors who have played in a fully professional league" are generally notable" you can't draw the opposite conclusion that lack of appearence in such a competition automatically fail notability (wich also explicitily is stated in the beginning of the 'additional criteria' paragraph on WP:BIO). Sebisthlm 21:32, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment - I'd be of exactly the opposite view - if he got a shirt number at Fulham, he'd be much nearer making a fully professional appearance! Still non-notable in my view. Oh, and if Arsenal have the best youth system in England, how come they didn't win the FA Youth Cup last season? - fchd 11:15, 23 October 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment Arsenal went out of the FA Youth Cup after extra time against Manchester United. Losing one game doesn't determine who has the best youth team in the country. If Barnet beat Arsenal in the FA Cup, that wouldn't make Barnet a better team than Arsenal. Cg29692 12:52, 23 October 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment - Possibly so, but (no offence to Fulham) being closer to first-team football at Fulham than at Arsenal doesn't make a player more notable IMHO. Sebisthlm 11:53, 23 October 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment. Agree. Operating 12:21, 23 October 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep There is no doubt that Rodgers will, within the next year at least, play football in a professional league or cup. He is only 18 and will go on to play professional football quite soon, and will pass the notability criteria quite soon. An example of where the criteria should come into play is, for example, what happened at Barnet F.C. last season, when a man named Chris Emery signed a contract with Barnet and was issued a squad number. However he was simply a fan of the club who had won a competition, he wasn't a footballer, he had no future in the game, so therefore an article wasn't created. Cg29692 12:47, 23 October 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep. As per WP:IGNORE. Deleting this article *now* will not help to improve WP. Spending effort going through an AFD on this article, for it then to have to be recreated when he makes his 1st appearance later this season, having to find references all over again, update the squad template... Give it a couple of months, if he's not been picked, then maybe AFD it. Paulbrock 23:49, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep - has played in a friendly for the Arsenal first team against Barnet - see his Profile at [2], where you will find this (quote): "His performances caught the eye of the Club’s management and he signed professional terms at the start of the 2007/2008 campaign. He made his first appearance for the first team soon after, as a second-half substitute in a 2-0 friendly win over Barnet." On this occasion and not ordinarily, I believe that his having played in a friendly for a team which competes in a fully professional league should suffice for the purposes of notability. Ref (chew)(do) 00:45, 26 October 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep - Deleting this article will not help the encyclopedia. This is a case for IAR. Even then, the player has played a professional game as highlighted above. Being given a professional contract by Arsenal and then put into the squad gives some indication of notability. Woodym555 09:06, 26 October 2007 (UTC)


The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.