Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Paul Phoenix (singer)

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result of the debate was keep. Metamagician3000 11:32, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Paul Phoenix (singer)

Delete. Non-notable singer in the group the King's Singers. Does not deserve his own page. Reads like vanity as well... ConDem^Talk 20:10, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

• Comment: I disagree with ConDem. Paul Phoenix is a notable singer in a well-known group (grammy-nominated) which performs over a 100 concerts a year in the world's most respected concert halls. KSfan 20:10, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

• weak keep per him being a member of the Kings Singers. Jcuk 21:33, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

• Comment: It's also important to note that Paul was a well-known treble as a child and recorded several solo albums as well as with the choir of St. Paul's Cathedral. He was awarded a gold disk for one of these. Just a quick "google" will show that he is more than deserving of his own page. KSfan 5 May 2006 (UTC)
  • (Please note that KSfan has only been active as of today, the 5th May, and has only made contributions to King's Singers related articles and images, although I see he or she has only made a comment not a "keep" vote.) I'm sorry, but I can't find any solo albums. The google search "Paul Phoenix" "solo album" -tekken" (there is a character or something in the game called Paul Phoenix) produced only 5 results: [1]. I do think that the King's Singers deserve a page, but to have each member have a page as well seems too far. Perhaps the Singers were awarded a gold disc, but that doesn't mean that each individual member suddenly earns an article. ConDem^Talk 00:20, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

• Keep: I apologize for not knowing proper wikipedia etiquette. Yes, I became active today but that should not make my point invalid. This isn't a "who has been here longer" discussion. It is not my plan to go around checking wikipedia for inaccuracies, but I will discuss the things I know about and this is a subject that I do know. Paul had several solo albums and one of his own became gold not including records of the King's Singers. If you do a search for his name (-tekken, of course), you will find many, many pages on him including ones that discuss his fame as a child. Most sites would not phrase it "Paul Phoenix, solo album" so it would be worthless to search in such a manner. I appreciate your love of all things "notable" and would agree with you if the person in question was not a successful individual, but it seems silly to pick on such an accomplished human being. KSfan 5 May 2006 (UTC)
  • Note: Here is a link from www.treble.info which took me about a minute to find. There are plenty of other sources for this same kind of information. "Paul Phoenix became a member of St Pauls Cathedral Choir when he was nine. He was chosen to sing the treble solo for the theme tune to the TV series 'Tinker, tailor, Soldier, Spy' which was released as a single and became a No 1 hit in 1980. This resulted in other singles such as 'My way', a full album called 'Rejoice' and a couple of EPs where he is the soloist with The St Pauls Cathedral Boys Choir. His songs are available on the CD re-release 'Jubilate! Golden Favourites From St. Paul's Cathedral' Guild GRCD 7024"
  • And here is more from a website about the progressive rock band, Janus. 'Orr started a new Janus, involving several young, very talented, musicians, including Dave Harrold an Irish bass guitarist, Doug Boyes on Cello, and Paul Phoenix a phenomenal classical vocalist, graduate of the Royal Northern College, and somebody who had had a worldwide number 1 at the age of 11, as the lead in the St. Pauls Cathedral Choir, with the theme to a BBC TV show, "Tinker, Tailor, Soldier, Spy".'
    • I understand that the song was a hit, but the hit was with the choir - I was saying that he as an individual does not merit his own article, and still believe that. The fact that his albums are clearly not longer widely available must say something about his notability... ConDem^Talk 01:18, 6 May 2006 (UTC)
      • I am not saying that he is the biggest superstar to ever hit the world. There are many artists and authors within the pages of Wikipedia whom I have never heard, but I am sure that within their specific fields, they are well-known. Just because you don't know of Paul or the fame he had as a boy chorister and now as a member of The King's Singers, doesn't mean that he doesn't deserve his own page. To people in his field and to fans of this type of music, he is well-known. And by the way, the hit was his solo. He sang lead on several of those albums. He wasn't just a member of the choir. KSfan 5 May 2006 (UTC)

• Weak keep, mostly because I have a feeling we often keep members of rockgroups with less lasting fame than the King's Singers. Anyway, I checked the digital archive of The Times (-1985) for something on his boyhood "career" and found a couple of items: Phoenix was a guest, presented as the "boy soprano who sang the Nunc Dimitis over the closing titles of Tinker, Tailor, Soldier, Spy", along with flautist James Galway and writer Laurie Lee on Parkinson on BBC1 on Nov. 24, 1979.^[1] and on Parkinson at Christmas again in the same channel on Christmas Day later that year.^[2] A later article in The Times, from 1985, and on a different boy singer, Aled Jones, who received a silver disc "for the surprise hit of the year" (on the BBC recording Voices from the Holy Land), mentions that "There has of course been boy treble in the pop charts before -- most recently Paul Miles-Kingston and six years ago Paul Phoenix, with Nunc Dimittis."^[3] Apparently he charted, and was notable enough as a boy soloist to be invited on a popular show a couple of times, and still recalled by a journalist six years later. Along with his later career in a popular group, I suppose that may push him over the threshold. (Can we get his chart position confirmed from some other source? The Times is perhaps not the best source for what happened on the British pop charts in 1979.) --u p p l a n d 03:53, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

1. ^ "Broadcasting Guide", Television, edited by Peter Davalle, The Times, Saturday, Nov 24, 1979; pg. 11; Issue 60483; col C
2. ^ "Christmas Day, Television", The Times, Monday, Dec 24, 1979; pg. 18; Issue 60508; col C
3. ^ The Times, Wednesday, May 29, 1985; pg. 3; Issue 62150; col A.

• Keep. There are clear inaccuracies in ConDem's entries above, and his reasoning smacks merely of some kind of personal vendetta (he probably came across Paul Phoenix whilst a pupil at Westminster Under School, a school where I know Paul Phoenix taught) which, in my view, is no reason to delete the entry for someone who is a popular figure within the vocal music world.

The inaccuracies I mentioned relate to Mr Phoenix's solo career - anyone who has heard or referred to the score of the "Tinker Tailor..." theme will know that it is for solo treble, with no choir parts anywhere to be seen. His career as a treble was solely based on his own talent and personality, which paved the way for the later fame of Aled Jones and Anthony Way as boy trebles.

Anyone who is seeking to know more about treble singing and early successful trebles, as well as the personalities within the King's Singers - the world's first "close harmony" group (they invented the term) and still the best, most highly sought-after and longest-surviving male voice ensemble ever to exist, will find entries both on the group in general AND on individuals within that group informative, interesting and revealing. Simply taking it upon yourself to attempt deletion of anyone who you deem "unworthy" despite clear evidence to the contrary is, I would say, a little disappointing. Apart from anything else, the educational benefit of these entries to the countless students in the UK and USA in particular who study King's Singers material (they publish most of their arrangements and sell tens of thousands of scores each year) and wish to find out more about the group, is extremely worthy.

Before it is mentioned, I also am a new editing member of Wikipedia, but the fact that I use it frequently and wanted informaton on the King's Singers and their members today, shows that this information is appreciated by those of us with slightly fewer chips on their shoulder. I haven't found the need to comment before, but in this instance it seems important. --82.68.78.198 18:56, 6 May 2006 (UTC)Montiolivetti

I'd just like to make it clear that there is no "personal vendetta" involved, and I have not come across Paul Phoenix outside of Wikipedia. ConDem^Talk 13:50, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

In a minute I'm going to close this as keep. However, I just want to emphasise for newcomers to the process that any suggestion of bad faith is unjustified and out of line. This AfD process is an important aspect of quality control for Wikipedia, and the nominator acted properly bringing the issue here to get the wisdom of other users. Metamagician3000 11:29, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

• Keep: I have to agree with the above Keep comments. How exactly do you consider award winning non-notable??? I'm also a bit confused on how you would consider his biography vain? If anything, the author was quite modest in listing his accomplishments. 64.53.16.97 07:19, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.