Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Paul Barnes (footballer)

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete Paul Barnes, Andy Little, John Boswell, Steve Butler, Antony Howard and Richard Butler, keep Byron Bubb and Josh Lennie, no consensus for Scott Curley and Mark Rooney. Punkmorten 09:24, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

  • Let me just point out that I created an article for the notable Paul Barnes. Punkmorten 09:51, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Paul Barnes (footballer)

Semi-professional footballer. Hasn't played for a professional club and thus fails WP:BIO. For the same reason I am nominating fellow A.F.C. Wimbledon players Andy Little, John Boswell (footballer) (former clubs listed only as trainees), Steve Butler (footballer), Antony Howard, Byron Bubb, Scott Curley (never played a game for Chelsea) and Richard Butler (footballer). Fellow squad members Josh Lennie and Mark Rooney (footballer) have only ever played Football League Trophy matches for League clubs, and, in my opinion, should be deleted too. If Rooney is deleted, this redirect page - Mark Rooney 19/05/1978 also needs deleting. HornetMike 19:56, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

  • Delete all per nomination. Qwghlm 21:05, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete all AFC Wimbledon players are not notable - they need to play in a fully professional league to meet sportsperson criteria in WP:BIO. Catchpole 21:16, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete all apart from Lennie and Rooney. Individual players who have never played a professional game are non-notable. In my opinion, the Football League Trophy is a first-class competition and therefore, Lennie and Rooney should stay. - fchd 06:15, 24 October 2006 (UTC) - Later addition - Keep Bubb as well, per comments of others. - fchd 20:18, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
    • Comment. If you're arguing that playing in the FLT makes a player notable, you're also arguing that Conference players are notable, since all Conference sides are eligible for entry to that competition. I'm not sure we want to go there. -- Bpmullins 14:53, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
      • Comment I don't think it's the fact that playing in the FLT makes a player notable, it's more that these two players represented Football League teams in what is a recognised first-team competition. By the same token, I'd argue that a player who has represnted a League team in an FA Cup match would satisfy the notability guidelines but that doesn't mean that anyone who plays for a team that's eligible to play in the FA Cup is notable.... ChrisTheDude 15:00, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
      • Comment a) No conference sides are now eligbile for the FLT (as from this season, and b) Only a selected number were eligible anyway. Otherwise, agree 100% with the comments of ChrisTheDude - fchd 20:18, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete all bar Lennie and Rooney (per fchd) and Bubb (as he has apparently played for his country). Although AFC Wimbledon are one of the highest profile non-league clubs, that doesn't by extension make players who would otherwise have failed WP:BIO notable ChrisTheDude 08:32, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
  • (Declaring an interest as an AFC Wimbledon supporter & authour / contributor to many of these articles). As I've said before in similar AfD discussions, I think the emphasis should be on finding justifications to keep articles not a straight delete policy, nevertheless I reluctantly accept that I'm not going to be able to provide sufficient arguments to keep most of these. However, some of them can be justified...:
    • keep Byron Bubb - made ~20 appearances for Millwall and has 10 international caps for Grenada;
Soccerbase has no record of a Byron Bubb playing for Millwall. HornetMike 00:53, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
That's merely an indication of how good Soccerbase is (I believe he is listed there as "Bryon Bubb"!), but you are correct the site does not list him as having ever played for Millwall. Conclusive proof, indeed! I stated that he had made around 20 appearances for Millwall because that is what it said in the AFC Wimbledon press release when he was signed and is what is stated in the players Player profile on the Official Site. However, for further verifiability, other sources include this site which lists him as having made 8 league appearances for Millwall, while this site says 3+5+7=15. (I read somewhere that I can't immediately locate that he made a total of 15 starts and 5 substitute appearances at Millwall, totalling 20 appearances). If you are still unconvinced, he is also explicitly mentioned in this match report as having played in the Division Two match, Millwall 0-1 Northampton on 12 September, 2000. -- MLD · T · C · @:  16:20, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
fchd's point about the Football League Trophy being a first class competition is an interesting one - particularly as it's competed for by non-league teams as well as league teams. What's the consensus - sufficient for notability or not? Furthermore, where does this lead us - e.g. the FA Cup is competed for by virtually every team in the country from non-league to professional, so if the League trophy is sufficient for notability then the FA Cup surely has to be? And what of the FA Trophy?!
    • keep Mark Rooney (footballer) - played in League trophy for Dagenham & Redbridge, and FA Cup and FA Trophy for AFC Wimbledon. Has made a senior apperance for a club which plays in a fully proffessional league at Watford (Comment revised: -- MLD · T · C · @:  16:20, 25 October 2006 (UTC))
    • keep Andy Little, Steve Butler (footballer), Antony Howard, Richard Butler (footballer), Paul Barnes (footballer) - all played FA Cup and FA Trophy for AFC Wimbledon (and others). Reluctantly changing to delete Little, S Butler, Howard, R Butler and Barnes as no professional league experience. (Comment revised: -- MLD · T · C · @:  16:20, 25 October 2006 (UTC))

And finally,

    • delete John Boswell (footballer) - the only reason he has an article stub is because the original link pointed to John Boswell, who is someone entirely different!
All in all, I have to say I find it slightly disappointing as someone who has contributed to wikipedia in an attempt to increase the coverage of non-league football (both players and clubs, and organisational structures) that we should be voting to cut much of this out, thereby decreasing the coverage of football. But what can I do? -- MLD · T · C · @:  15:02, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
      • I don't think fchd was suggesting that competing in the Football League Trophy was a qualifier for notability. He was refuting the earlier comment that those players on the list who had played for league teams still didn't pass WP:BIO because the appearances they had made were "only" in the FLT. I don't think he was implying that anyone who played for a non-league team in the FLT would pass WP:BIO. I also don't think that having played for a non-league team in the FA Cup makes a player notable, and definitely not the FA Trophy ChrisTheDude 15:25, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
        • Essentially, I think the general consensus is that players who have only played for non-league clubs aren't notable, irrespective of what competitions they might have represented said non-league clubs in.... ChrisTheDude 15:27, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
          • I think you're right about the consensus. Stated positively, the criterion for notability is that the player has represented a League club in any competition. (Right?) -- Bpmullins 16:01, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
            • Yes, that's what I was driving at.... ChrisTheDude 07:13, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete all, with the possible exception of Bubb due to his appearances for Grenada. The nom originally took me by suprise, as there is a different, far more notable footballer called Paul Barnes who scored more than 100 League goals in the 1990s. Many league clubs field reserve teams in the Football League Trophy, playing one match as a substitute in that competition, as Lennie has, does not imply notability. These nominations for semi-pro footballers seem to come up fairly regularly, perhaps someone should start a non-league football Wikia. Oldelpaso 18:14, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
    • Comment, regardless of whether you feel that international appearances for Grenada are sufficient for notability, surely there is no doubt that Bubb, having made 20 first team appearances (see above!) for Millwall in the old Division Two, satisfies WP:BIO. -- MLD · T · C · @:  15:31, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Commment - Rooney's FLT appearance for Watford was definetely in a reserve line-up. Something like 6 players made first-team debuts that game. I really struggle to give any argument to keep either him or Lennie, who played a mere 45 minutes.HornetMike 00:37, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
    • Comment - I think the phrase you use, "first-team debuts", says it all - a senior apperance for a club which plays in a fully proffessional league, therefore irrefutably satisfying WP:BIO!!
Incidentally (linking a related discussion elsewhere), I note that you have also proposed the {{AFC Wimbledon squad}} template for deletion here. Despite the proposed deletion of all articles on AFC Wimbledon players who have not had professional league experience, there are still a number of AFC Wimbledon players who do have professional league experience (arguably Lennie and Rooney, but undeniably Bubb, Garrard and Cook) -- MLD · T · C · @:  15:31, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment - In terms of whether a Football League Trophy, FA Cup or similar first team appearance qualifies as sufficient for notability, there is clearly an ambiguity here which needs resolving. What WP:BIO says is "Sportspeople/athletes/competitors who have played in a fully professional league" however this does not take into account any other first team competitions that are not league-based. I think the statement should be revised to "Sportspeople/athletes/competitors who have played at senior level for a team that competes in a fully professional league". -- MLD · T · C · @:  16:33, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
If it is necessary to rely on a handful of unremarkable cup matches to make a case for notability, then the chances of being able to craft an article of any length about that professional career using verifiable sources is minimal. Verifiability is more important than notability criteria, which are guidelines to help a decision rather than rules set in stone. Oldelpaso 18:23, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep Bubb, Lennie, Curley, delete the other 8, WP:BIO makes the point about being in the squad for a "professional league" as a claim for notability extremely clear. Therefore, by virtue, those who don't reach this level are non-notable. Daniel.Bryant 10:15, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete all, absolutely non-notable guys. --Angelo 21:51, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Keep:Scott Curley , Byron Bubb,Josh Lennie and Mark Rooney. Probably delete the rest as they fail WP:Bio although it is a bit of a mess as it's hard to quickly judge on a large number of players. The articles should have been listed indivually. Or make a sub-page called "AFC Wimbledon Players" and redirect their pages there. Englishrose 18:44, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

  • Keep, Scott Curley, Byron Bubb, Josh Lennie and Mark Rooney, as per Englishrose. Kingjamie 21:02, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.