Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Parras Middle School (second nomination)

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep as substantially rewritten and meeting WP:ATT. - Mailer Diablo 10:06, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Parras Middle School

Parras Middle School (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) – (View log)

I nominated this before I saw that it had been recently AfD'd. Yes, I know I should have checked the history first, but I didn't. I decided to go ahead and see how the 2nd nom was done, so here it is. Feel free to lash me! I still think this is a non-notable middle school, perhaps not as non-notable as others, but nevertheless, non-notable. killing sparrows 04:30, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

The previous AfD discussion can be found at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Parras Middle School

  • Keep Notable institution. Piccadilly 11:55, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete Only notable thing mentioned is that it is a "Blue Ribbon School," of which there are about six thousand (or nearly one school in twenty). (And the link that is supposed to support its being one is, in fact, a link back to the article itself; the writer couldn't even be bothered to provide verifiability for its being a "Blue Ribbon School," though I'm sure it is, just like five thousand others...) Dpbsmith (talk) 16:35, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
  • Note: This debate has been included in the list of Schools-related deletions. Camaron1 | Chris 17:28, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete: Fails WP:ATT, WP:NN. The writer couldn't be bothered to provide verifiability for this school being a "Blue Ribbon" one, but happily, the link follows to the Department of Education website, which has complete lists of the schools awarded Blue Ribbon status since such status was created in 1982. This school appears on none of those lists.  RGTraynor  17:54, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete. No assertion of notability. --Fang Aili talk 18:37, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete Keep per revised version and WP:A WP:N RGTraynor and damn close to WP:CSD#A1. --Butseriouslyfolks 21:03, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete per above reasons, HOWEVER, it does, in fact, appear on page 14 of the citation provided. Open the PDF and use the search feature on 'parras' to find it. ThuranX 23:05, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep Looks good to me. And well sourced. Notable, too. Noroton 23:06, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep I didn't !vote on the earlier AfD. Of the eds. voicing at that AfD, only 2 are present here. I consider this a good example of the variability of our decision based upon the random presence of individual editors. This tends to make me favor numerical criteria, and I think the top 5 % is distinction enough for notability, since it has been sourced.DGG 23:14, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep - I have now fully sourced this article including the Blue Ribbon from which the earlier link was broken. The Blue Ribbon should be well enough (if the top 5% of schools are not notable we may as well give up) but with additional notability this is an obvious Keep. TerriersFan 23:20, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment Assuming for the moment that WP:N can be reduced to a fixed number, 5% is far too liberal a standard for inclusion. That would give us more than 6,000 school articles in the United States alone, based on a single year of Blue Ribbons.[1] This does not include articles about schools that never got a Blue Ribbon but are notable for other reasons. 5% doesn't make sense in other areas either. (For instance, it would give us articles about 325,000,000 people!) Including every Blue Ribbon school gives us another problem: More schools are added to the list every year. If there were no overlap from year to year, that would add another 6,000 school articles per year, and after 20 years, we'd have an article on all 123,385 schools! I'm sure there is a large degree of overlap, but you get the picture. I think Blue Ribbon status is a factor to be considered, but I don't think it should be sufficient to qualify an otherwise nonnotable school for inclusion here. --Butseriouslyfolks 06:45, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
  • Reply: The assumption that underlies your logic -- that 6,000 schools are being recognized each year -- is completely and utterly false. The initial list of Blue Ribbon Award winners includes fewer than 5,000 schools over a 20-year period, under 250 schools per year, or about one quarter of one percent of all eligible schools nationwide. More recent years have included a comparable number of schools on an annual basis. The Blue Ribbon Schools Program has clearly demonstrated that it is the highest honor that an American school can receive. If we can't get agreement that the award is notable (and have to use patently false statistics to deny it) and that a achool so recognized has made a strong claim of notability, than we have very big problems here. Alansohn 15:17, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
  • As I have requested before, please be civil and assume good faith. My statistics are not false. I was mistakenly relying on what I perceived as the suggestion above that 5% of schools get Blue Ribbons, not realizing that TF meant 5% as an approximate cumulative total over the years. If that was "completely and utterly false", it's not my fault. Go accuse TerriersFan of "using patently false statistics" if you must. I believe you are correct about the number of Blue Ribbon schools, so I am retracting my comment and changing my opinion on this article. Have a lovely day. --Butseriouslyfolks 00:03, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
  • The figure is just under 5%, as I stated above, but where your extrapolation went wrong was to assume that that was an annual growth figure rather than the running total. To put 6,000 into context; in the last 24 hours around 2,300 articles were created on Wikipedia. TerriersFan 01:56, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
  • Ah! You get the Blue Ribbon for seeing the difference between what I thought you meant and what you actually wrote! Yes, I thought you were saying 5% per year. Yes, that was my error. I apologize for casting aspersions about your statistics. Thank you for being patient with me. --Butseriouslyfolks 02:31, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep Article demonstrates notability using reliable and verifiable sources. I also agree that the 5% number is completely wrong. Based on my estimates, closer to 40 to 50% of schools should be able to demonstrate notability with ease. Alansohn 11:50, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
  • In which case that's scarcely "notable," is it?  RGTraynor  13:40, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
  • 100% of municipalities are notable. 100% of federal elected officials are notable. 100% of interstate highways are notable. A smaller percentage of schools, particularly at the high school level, will be able to demonstrate notability with multiple, non-trivial reliable and verifiable sources. I'm willing to live with the fact that it's less than 100%, and I'm more than willing to acknowledge that most middle schools will have far greater difficulty demonstrating notability. This school has clearly met all relevant standards of notability. Alansohn 15:17, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
  • I prefer to look at it as precedent. I agree that establishing notability for a middle school like this one is reasonably difficult. But for high schools, the overwhelming majority have multiple non-trivial from reliable and verifiable sources to demonstrate notability. Alansohn 20:37, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep While it is not notable by my standards, by wikipedias it is. Virtually every school in the United states has an article on wikipedia.--Sefringle 22:42, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
  • Weak Keep. I'd say the blue ribbon award just pushes this school into notability, even though most of the other stuff might be trivial. Looks good to me though.--Wizardman 02:55, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep per the convincing arguments made yet again by Alansohn. That, and the fact that recipients of the Blue Ribbon are notable, as it considered the highest honor an American school can receive. RFerreira 02:17, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.