Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Paliam

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result of the debate was Keep. Deathphoenix ʕ 04:17, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Paliam

• DELETE - How is this relevant? This is a page about a particular family in India. I don't think it is of any interest for 99.99% of wikipedia users.

• KEEP - Just because it doesnt interest you, doesnt mean that it wont interest others. Wikipedia's aim was to create a site that provides information that will unite people all across the world. Paliam is not only a family but it is a famous tharavaadu, just like Earls and Barons in England. 220.238.193.217 20:23, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

• KEEP - Actually, it's pretty relevant. The Paliam family features prominently in Kerala history. This article has been linked to "List of Nair Tharavadus"; another Wikipedia article, which aims to provide information about different Nair tharavaadus.. A tharavadu is similar to a "house" in European countries and the Paliath Achan would be similar to a Baron or a Earl. I fail to see where you got your statistic about this being "uninteresting" for 99.99% of Wikipedia users. Wikipedia tries to provide information about many different things to different people and I don't see how this article is an exception; and I don't say it just because I happen to be from that family - I feel that it is an important part of Kerala history and that it is something that other people would like to know about. --Vivin Paliath (<span style="color:green" lang="ml">വിവിന് പാലിയത്</span>) 15:23, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

• Keep This family has played a significant role in the history of Kerala. Tintin (talk) 16:38, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

• Comment Is this a serious AfD ? The nominator has nothing but a vandalism warning in his talk page. One of the first two voters is an IP; the other guy was making it first edit. It was first tagged on April 13 but it is not listed. Tintin (talk) 16:49, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

• Keep - There are plenty of pages on Wikipedia that deal with family and clan names (see Jat for example) and there is no reason not to have them here. Sukh | ਸੁਖ | Talk 16:51, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

• Why keep? Where Vivin talks about keeping this article because it is an important part of Kerala History, there are many more important events, people, instances that are of far greater importance and probably include more people than just of one family in Kerala's history. Please provide better arguments to keep this article.

  If there are more important people and events, please feel free to add articles about them too. Tintin (talk) 17:35, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

  There is nothing preventing you from adding that information. Please sign your comments. --Vivin Paliath (വിവിന് പാലിയത്) 06:13, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

• Keep As the designer of the article titled "List of Nair Tharavadus", my main aim was in accordance with the motive of wikipedia....to build a closer global community through greater knowledge. This is not a vanity page. This is not irrelevant material. Just because you may find it uninteresting doesnt mean that everyone else would. Many would find Quantum Physics boring, but does that mean that it should be deleted as well? Do we want wikipedia being a website with articles being present based on popularity? Many of the most unpopular things in life are the most important, and information and knowledge about the Paliam tharavadu (clan) can enhance our perception of Kerala history. Kshatriya Knight

• Incomplete nomination listed now. - Liberatore(T) 13:33, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

• Strong delete. Wikipedia's aim was not "to create a site that provides information that will unite people all across the world". Nor is it designed to carry information on particular familes of under 500 members. Vizjim 14:45, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

• Delete unless editor provides verifiable information. "Paliam online" and a password-protected genealogy site is way below the bar. And what does this mean? -> Things have changed in the Paliam family. Wrecked by internal infighting the once illustrious Paliam family is now becoming obscure. A strong leader is required. He is Mahesh Paliath ~ trialsanderrors 17:27, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

  3rd party evidence is still missing, but my vote is below now. ~ trialsanderrors 20:27, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

• That was nonsense. I deleted it. Tintin (talk) 05:28, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

• Delete appears to pump for one particular possible leader. --Xyrael ^T 17:40, 14 June 2006 (UTC)Weak delete as above has now been removed. --Xyrael ^T 07:33, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

• Weak delete. WP:NOT a genealogy database (or a place for family feuds), so only particularly notable families are encyclopedic, IMHO. The "Hereditary Prime Minister" claim might come close, but the poor sourcing also calls for a deletion under WP:V. Sandstein 18:22, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

  That is exactly why this family is notable. It was a family that provided the prime ministers of Kingdom of Cochin for two centuries. Would links like this and this which contain a number of references to the Paliath Achans (note that the name refers to whoever was the eldest member of the family at the time and not one single person) satisfy you ? The most famous of the Paliath Achans is the one who was the PM in the early 1800s and one of the earliest India freedom fighters against the British. Tintin (talk) 05:38, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

  (Replied here for continuity.) Sorry, but these links are not reliable sources; the second describes itself as "Indiasite.com, a trusted name in the travel industry in India caters to all the needs of a tourist coming to India." Also, they're not very clear, as noted by trialsanderrors below. I'm still for delete, without prejudice to recreation if properly sourced later. Sandstein 19:21, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

  We have articles on family like the Medicis, but primarily because the family created a bunch of individuals who were notable in their own right. This article claims notability for a family but doesn't list a single notable member of the family? None of the two links you offered even contains the word Paliam, so if they possibly establish notability for one or more Paliath Achans, the connection to the Paliam family has to be taken on faith. I don't doubt your claims, but the article still fails WP:V by quite a long shot. But in any case you should probably post those links under references and ~ trialsanderrors 05:56, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

  Please check for the word 'Paliath' in those links. I can certainly add a section on the freedomfighter- Paliath Achan but it may take a few days to get hold of the books Tintin (talk) 06:00, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

  I did and noticed the occurrences. They still don't source the connection between Paliath and Paliam. The only links I found with both Paliath and Paliam are tourist websites that don't use them in the same paragraph. The one thing I can recommend is to rename the entry Paliath Acham, use the 300-odd Google hits to write an article on them, and mention in a paragraph that they're part of the Paliam family. This seems sourceable and notability shouldn't be too hard to establish. ~ trialsanderrors 06:12, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

  Paliath, in Malayalam, means something like "from Paliam" or "from the Paliam tharavadu". The Paliam is one of the famous royal families in Kerala, and are part of the history of Kochi.-- thunderboltz^{a.k.a.Deepu Joseph |TALK}08:50, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

  Tintin mentioned it to me on my Talk page. I thank you for the information, but still unless it is independently verified it has no bearing on my point. Neither the Kerala not the Kochi article contain any mention of the Paliam/th. I can see that online sources might be hard to come by, so it might be worthwhile to go through online libraries to see if there are historical accounts written on the Paliam family. ~ trialsanderrors 00:28, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

• Delete per Trialsanderrors and Sandstein. -- Kicking222 22:24, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

• KEEP per Vivan, Tintin and Sukh. ImpuMozhi 04:28, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
• Weak Keep per above. --Gurubrahma 07:29, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
• Keep per tintin.Blnguyen | Have your say!!! 07:33, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
• Keep - This family has an important position in the history of Kerala. The members of the family have held significant positions in the ancient Kingdom of Kochi-- thunderboltz^{a.k.a.Deepu Joseph |TALK}08:39, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

• Delete per Trialsanderrors and Sandstein. Anwar 23:17, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

• Keep, Move or Userfy. Paliath Achan is a historical title, worthy of an article, and some of the content here is a sound start for that article. Google Books gives three secondary sources that use this form of the title and two that use Paliyat Achan. This article or this article from The Hindu also establish usage of Paliath Achan as a historical term. At the minimum, we should have an article on that title, and move this there to be a start for it. There are also a couple of other articles from the website of that paper available showing that the family is still extant, but would not be citable to establish the article. The Reference listed in the article doesn't appear to have been scanned by Google books yet, so I can't evaluate it. However, on the basis of WP:AGF we should all assume that thunderboltz actually has the source that he cited in the references section. The article has improved today, see this diff. The best outcome of an AFD discussion is an improved article. While this still has numerous redlinks, that is not surprsing given the systemic bias that Wikipedia suffers under. GRBerry 01:38, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

  I guess Keep and Move to Paliath Achan is the best solution given the sources. No Paliam on Wikibooks either. ~ trialsanderrors 02:44, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

• Keep. The family is certainly notable, to the extend that the hereditary PM of the Kingdom of Cochin was known as "the Palaith Achchan." Besides, even by themselves, the Nair Theravadus are atleast as notable as any of the pages in Category:Surnames or Category:Rajput clans. ImpuMozhi 01:22, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
• Rewrite and Move to Paliath Achans per trialsanderrors, since this is their claim to notability. Wikipedia is not a geneology database. Accurizer 17:44, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
• Keep at the present title but rewrite and cleanup. There seem to be several precedents in - see e.g. Báthory and Dál gCais (the latter of which, incidentally, is hardly better sourced than this one although its style is better). -- Arvind 23:23, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
  • My guess is that the first one would be made into a dab page for all Báthorys and the second one wouldn't survive AfD if someone paid attention to it. ~ trialsanderrors 23:30, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.