Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Pagan Association

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result of the debate was delete. 2 legit votes to delete, 1 legit vote to keep, plus lots of comments and anons. -R. fiend 18:50, 28 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Pagan Association

Delete. Biased tone. Advertisment. Vanity. Minor local self-promotional organisation not worthy of note or suitable for mention in Wikipedia. 86.134.135.38 18:06, 19 September 2005 (UTC)

Delete:Run as a part-time venture by two people who have 'real jobs', a 'kitchen fitter' and a, 'personal assistant'

- wow an organisation run by two people with full time jobs and charges a small fee to cover costs of newsletter, great reason for removal! Maybe they should charge more and then they wouldn't have to work fulltime jobs. Accounts are fully transparent and available for any member to view.

Comment You miss the point again. It was not an argument about the fact that you charge, but that you are not a 'full-time', professional organisation worthy of note in an encyclopedia but something you do in your spare time as a hobby. This is an encylcopedia page about your hobby.

No individual member has ever seen the books of the p.a.User:Acropolis now

Delete:P.A. is a small group of friends based in Birmingham. Run as a part-time venture by two people who have 'real jobs', a 'kitchen fitter' and a, 'personal assistant' I believe. Likes to give the impression it IS paganism in the Midlands. Charges for membership but the, 'books' are not open for inspection by members. Totally unworthy of mention on Wikipedia: Remove.

Comment: Even after a re-edit the page is still little more than an advert for this group, and by that token an advert for their, 'pay services' such as, 'hand fastings'.

Comment: I hardly think being given expenses of a few pounds to cover fuel costs for handfastings all around the UK counts as a 'pay service'? It's not a commercial venture.

Comment: Regardless of what this couple charge, they and their services should not be advertised on an encyclopedia, especially as the many other organisations who've been offering such a services for decades are not. It's misleading and could give the impression that this is the only organisation offering such a service.

Anyway, if people want a pagan handfasting service, or even to find out about paganism at all, they can look on specifically pagan sites, (easily found through any search engine) or follow the links under paganism

They don't need a misleading promotional advert trying to convince them about the importance of any one organisation on Wikipedia.

A page containing a general description of paganism and links to other groups is all that is needed. A page called, 'Pagan Association' is not.

Comment: There already are two, with links. paganism and neopaganism

• Comment- how about rename as Pagan Association- Midlands, England as this group only holds any events or has any active prescence in that region? And have a more objective tone as opposed to 'local pagans loved the idea' and such ad nauseam. There are several pagan groups in Birmingham this page could be subsumed under one of that name. Even then, is an analysis of the regional factions of a minority religion worthy of note, when large pagan groups such as the Druid Network only have a stub, and the Pagan Federation, the UK's largest pagan organisation by far and a registered charity, has no page at all.

Comment: Updated to include other pagan organisations - not sure if there are any suggestions as to how it should then be renamed? Perhaps National Pagan organisations within the UK? Incidentally the Pagan Federation was stripped of its charitable status several years ago and is trying to regain it through PEBBLE. --User:RhiannonB 23:41, 19 September 2005 (UTC)

'And the relevance of that is??'

Comment This is not a pagan information update page -it's to discuss the deletion of an article on Wikipedia. Your 'incidental' comment goes beyond incidental into off-topic.--

There is an entire 'pagan Wiki' where pagan organisations can be described it's http://paganwiki.org/ User:Acropolis now They have a link from paganism

Simply place your URL on the links page of paganism or neopaganism You don't need a seperate Wikipedia article for pagan organisations. If need be you could place a subheading UK there for pagan organisations in the UK.

Then if people are interested, they can go direct to the site, or to the many pagan sites that provide descriptions of available UK and local pagan organisations. This is an encyclopedia not a special interest notice board or even a site solely for those in the UK. User:Acropolis now

Comment: Pagan Association UK is the official name, and as members come from as far afield as Berwick Upon Tweed, London, South Wales, and Cornwall, it's a fair name to use. The contacts of the Pagan Association spread even further afield, and as there are many people who use Wikipedia to find out more about paganism, giving them a safe and known point of contact offline seems to me to be a good use of Wikipedia. If someone from within the Pagan Federation wishes to add to the page then we could share the resource. I believe the Children of Artemis is the biggest pagan organisation in the UK with something like 5,000 members, however this is a commercial organisation. --User:RhiannonB 23:41, 19 September 2005 (UTC)

• Comment at least rename this. "Pagan Association" means "an association of Pagans", not particularly this one. I'd rename it myself at least to "Pagan Association UK" (pending verification) but as it stands this is a completely non-encyclopaedic title. Tonywalton  | Talk 22:34, 19 September 2005 (UTC)

Comment: I am not voting on this article either way, but I would refer people to the debate on "AfD" for "Martin Williams". I don't know much about this organisation, or whether it's worthy of inclusion, but I felt "Martin Williams" who was a member wasn't. Judge for yourselves... --MacRusgail 20:41, 19 September 2005 (UTC)

Comment He wasn't just a member. You are speaking of THE Martin Williams, the Head and Founder of the Pagan Association (UK) And you think he isn't worthy of an entry. I'm aghast.

• Comment at least rename this. "Pagan Association" means "an association of Pagans", not particularly this one. I'd rename it myself at least to "Pagan Association UK" (pending verification) but as it stands this is a completely non-encyclopaedic title. Tonywalton  | Talk 22:34, 19 September 2005 (UTC)

rename to align with current revision, to "paganism in Birmingham."

Requested move=Talk:pagan association — pagan association → paganism in Birmingham – NPOV, place in relevant context, User:Acropolis now 12:03, 20 September 2005 (UTC)

have put this on talkpage too- i'm new;)

not that parochial goings-on are worthy of an entry, anyway. Where would it end? Every University society has an entry?

• Keep Correct me if I'm wrong, this is the UK Pagan Association, it used to be in London and now has its headquarters in Birmingham, where their first meet outside London was. They've been in the news - BBC Birmingham , BBC Birmingham, albeit BBC local editions. It's only just been written, give it some time at least to refine and get wikified. And move to the group's proper title Pagan Association UK, which is a redirect to this article's page (at the moment). Alf ^melmac 19:45, 20 September 2005 (UTC)

[Restored my comment to original I left it at. Alf ^melmac 21:51, 20 September 2005 (UTC)]

[made edit (strike through: must have been a glitch) I came back to do. Alf ^melmac 21:54, 20 September 2005 (UTC)

correction No. The particular pagan association refered to has always been based in Birmingham where the founder and leadership live. You must be mistaking it for another of the same name.

And they don't have a 'headquarters'-unless you count their sitting room.

Having read the article you flagged, I can assure you that this organisation is based in Birmingham, and as for 'first gathering outside London'- they've met in a pub at least once a week in Birmingham for some time. I suspect this is a misprint in the article. At any rate it's wholly misleading. User:Acropolis_now

This is a global encyclopedia, not for things that have been on -a few minute's segment- of a -local- programme on -one- channel in the-UK-.

A channel which a prominent member of this organisation just happens to work for.

Anyone can be on the local news- especially if they ring the media, are holding a pagan ritual, wearing robes or dancing round a fire.

All they need is their URL under pagan or neopagan.

Having their own entry is self-indulgent vanity publishing or an indirect advertisment for themselves and indirectly for those services for which they charge. User:Acropolis_now

• Comment This discussion is somewhat confusing, because of newcomers who are not familiar with the use of four tildes ~~~~ to sign an entry with a date-timestamp. There also have been edits out of sequential order. However, it appears the only vote from an experienced wikipedian so far is the keep vote from Alf ^melmac. There is one remove (a very strange way to spell delete) from an anonymous editor using IP 84.69.16.92. The only contributions from this IP are this discussion and the AfD on Martin Williams. --WCFrancis 17:08, 22 September 2005 (UTC)

• Delete verifiability is extremely limited, as is notability. The BBC page is about it. The association page appears to be gone, placeholder there. It appears the Pagan Federation would be much more notable and there is no article for it at present (although this one could be moved and rewritten for that organization since half the article is already about the Federation). -WCFrancis 17:47, 22 September 2005 (UTC)

• Delete as NN vanity. Groeck 03:31, 23 September 2005 (UTC)
• Keep Website is now back. Suggested renaming of page to 'UK Pagan Organisations' or similar. RhiannonB 07:54, 23 September 2005 (UTC)

• Comment That 'keep' vote was by the creator of the site, by the way.

She is trying to mislead people (as she is with the whole article) into thinking that her organisation is a 'UK pagan organisation' on a par with the Pagan Federation. Which it is not. Anyway she could just add some UK links under paganism or edit that page. But she wouldn't do that as her intention is Vanity and to mislead about her organisation's status, rather than to be in any way useful. Acropolis now 11:23, 23 September 2005 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.