Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Organised persecution of ethnic Poles

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was merge to Anti-Polish sentiment. I will merely redirect; further merging can be done if anyone wants to. Mangojuice^talk 18:38, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Organised persecution of ethnic Poles

Organised persecution of ethnic Poles (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) – (View log)

Merely a fork to dump together various events never considered related in the historiography. Makes similar sense as the hypothetical article titled, say, Ethnic persecution organised by Poles to include various massacres and pogroms conducted by Poles throughout the history (not to say that this is unique as any nation in its history is complicit for carrying massacres and ethnic persecution). --Irpen 20:46, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

never considered related - where? In the Soviet Union?

There are many ethnic articles about expulsions of Germans. There are no such article about expulsions of Poles, I'm going to write one or remove all German articles.Xx236 15:42, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

• Delete. I am a nominator. --Irpen 20:46, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
  • Fork of what? WilyD 21:04, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
    • Fork of the articles were these events are already covered. Also of Polonophobia article. Putting all these events together in such a list is nothing but an Wikipedia:Original research#Synthesis of published material serving to advance a position and Wikipedia:Content forking. It's like putting together anti-jewish pogroms carried by Poles in 1920 during their invasion of Ukraine and the WW2/post-WW2 pogroms carried in Poland (articles on that are written). --21:26, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
      • You are welcome. There are thousands of Soviet crimes to be described, your attitude will help me to do the task.Xx236 10:49, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
• Merge and Redirect to Anti-Polish sentiment, which seems to be similar content in more detail. WilyD 21:31, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
• Merge and Redirect to Anti-Polish sentiment why do we need to have a fork? Alex Bakharev 21:34, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
• Keep and expand. As notable as Organised persecution of ethnic Germans, a logical parent article for Treatment of Polish citizens by the occupants, which describes only the Second World War period.-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  21:42, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
• Neutral in short. A longer version: I'd either have both this and Organised persecution of ethnic Germans deleted (hence my conditional support to delete this list), or the list merged with Anti-Polish sentiment. Frankly speaking I don't see a need to have such a list anywhere. History of Poland serves the same purpose - and is much better. //Halibutt 21:47, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
• Comment and question to the nominator. This is a very young article, and difficult to judge at this stage. Why did you not nominate Organised persecution of ethnic Germans for deletion with the same rationale ? --Lysy^talk 22:24, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
  • Good question :) -- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  22:44, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
• Neutral / Merge per Halibutt. - Darwinek 22:25, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
• Keep. There is good article Persecution of Jews. So, I do not see any reason to delete article about persecution of Poles. It must be improved rather than deleted in my opinion.Biophys 00:50, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
• Comment. As others have already pointed out, we currently have articles such as Anti-German sentiment and Organised persecution of ethnic Germans, Antisemitism and Persecution of Jews. It makes sense to have Anti-Polish sentiment and Organised persecution of ethnic Poles. Since Irpen objects to the "persecution of ..." articles, perhaps he could nominate the others as well so we can vote on all of them at the same time. Appleseed (Talk) 01:48, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
  • Same old, same old. When you and your friends propose renaming or creation of one more "of Poland" article that starts with Invasion, Occupation, etc. make sure you propose the renaming of the other articles to the Polish invasion/Occcupation of... Russia, Ukraine, Belarus, Kievan Rus, Lithuania, Czechoslovakia, etc., respectively. Not interested? Too bad... --Irpen 01:53, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
    • If you're referring to Invasion of Poland, I prefer the original title of Polish September Campaign. I'm not aware of any other name for the Soviet invasion of Poland (1939), but I'm sure you can think of one. I think my suggestion to nominate the other articles is sensible; I don't see why you insist on turning our every encounter into a confrontation. Appleseed (Talk) 02:37, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
      • And changing topic - where is the connection with invasion/occupation issue? Sounds straw manish to me...-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  02:45, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
        • Antisemitism and Persecution of Jews are two different topics. The same with Germans, Poles, etc. Anti-Polish sentiment and Persecution of Poles are different. Former is about sentimenet and propaganda, later is about real action, such as imprisonment, execution, etc. Biophys 03:38, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
          • Now this sounds like a decent idea. We could split the content of both articles and keep the earlier on the cultural/sociological/whatever phenomenon while focusing the latter on actions. This way we'd have all kept clean and tidy. I'm still not sure however if this article is needed at all. We could just have the earlier and add more links to the History of Poland series. Any decent sources to focus on all aspects of persecution of Poles throughout the ages? And no, I don't mean all the Krauts and Jews steal our identity rubbish one can find in publications of some obscure fanatics. //Halibutt 09:22, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
• Merge and Redirect to Anti-Polish sentiment. For the record, I think Organised persecution of ethnic Germans should be merged with Anti-German sentiment. Biruitorul 04:57, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

Reply. I compared these articles about Germans and can see your point. Yes, there is certain overlap here. Article about "persecution" also describes anti-German sentiment and rightly so. This is because any action (persecution) requires first to convince people that such action is necessary (hence the "anti-sentiment"). Still, I think it is perfectly fine to have some degree of overlap in articles about different subjects if it makes the articles more readable. This is common for many scientific papers in WP. Biophys 17:15, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

I have suggested a merge at Talk:Anti-German sentiment; feel free to comment there.-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  18:44, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

• Keep. The presence of similar articles and Biophys' argument convinced me. Appleseed (Talk) 15:14, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

• Note: This debate has been included in the list of Poland-related deletions. --  _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  21:42, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

Is there any native-speaker here? Is a sentiment the same as mass exterminations and expulsions? Bullshit.Xx236 15:36, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

• Please behave politly here. Swearwords are not welcomed on Wikipedia.-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  18:44, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
  • There's nothing wrong with swearing - if something is bullshit, it should be labelled as such. Swearing at people is unwelcome, however. WilyD 21:00, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
• Delete. Yet another anti-XYZ list consisting of largely unrelated events put together by a warrior w/o any context. Pavel Vozenilek 23:35, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

• Note: For some reason, this debate has been included in the list of Russia-related deletions. --  _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  21:42, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

• Delete. Per WP:POINT and WP:OR. Putting together unrelated event for making original research point. There are already a number of absolutely unsourced article prepared by the team of Polish authors, like Przyszowice massacre. The source of these allegations is Institute of National Remembrance which has been criticized by Guardian, BRITISH HELSINKI HUMAN RIGHTS GROUP, and international magazine of cultural criticism, PopMatters as an organization created simply to carry out politically motivated witch hunts. Convincing reason for deletion. Lamest edit wars is an accurate description of what is going on to be on this article http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WP:LAME#Ethnic_feuds. Vlad fedorov 12:19, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
  • some journalists from left-wing media have critized IPN - so are we supposed to take journalist musings over works of academics? As most of your arguments, Vlad, this doesn't hold much water when analyzed closely.-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  17:33, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
  • actually when browsing through Guardian's archives I couldn't find a single mention of the IPN being criticised by the newspaper. Besides, the article on Przyszowice massacre is now sourced. //Halibutt 19:10, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

• Keep According to your logic the Holocaust is a series of unrelated events in many countries, commiitted by people of many nationalities. There is a strong relation here - mebers of the same families were killed by Soviets and Germans, sometimes survivors of one mass execution were persecuted by the other state. People who's families weren't exterminated should be careful when they criticize the point of view of the victims. Xx236 08:39, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
• Delete as an unnecessary stub. This list could be placed elsewhere and does not deserve a seperate article as it is. -- Grafikm ^(AutoGRAF) 09:38, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

• • This is a very young article, and difficult to judge at this stage. Why did you not nominate Organised persecution of ethnic Germans? (The text by Lysy)Xx236 10:41, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

• Keep There's no reason why an article about organised persecution should be deleted when there are plenty of others. That it is a stub means it should be expanded, not deleted. Anonytroll 06:58, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.