Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/OITC fraud

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result of the debate was delete as misinformation. I will readily send any verifiable, non-defamatory content from this article to anyone who wishes to write a proper article on this subject. In the meantime, I think the best thing we can do with this strongly biased and confusing concoction is to delete it lest some innocent party should be wrongly associated with the random wrongdoings alleged. --Tony Sidaway 01:42, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] OITC fraud

I am nominating this article on behalf of Executor-usa (talk · contribs), whom I have indefinitely blocked for legal threats relating to this article. However, he has asked admins to delete the article, and I think there needs to be some outside eyes on it. The article cites sources, but I haven't yet checked them out (some of them are in a Hispanic language) and there are some POV problems, starting with its title, which should be Office of International Treasury Control (currently a redirect, but it should be the central title). Obviously POV can be fixed, but we should start by considering whether it is worth it. I copy Executor-usa's reasoning below, and abstain for the moment. --Sam Blanning^(talk) 23:13, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

"This is part of a worldwide disinformation campaign against OITC. Waffelknocker is a police officer who has investigated OITC. He has posted accurate information supported by fact.OITC is a classified UN Chartered institution.The full jacket, security level 3-5, is held by the Chairman of the House Ways and Means Committee.Verification requires authorization. Chapter One on Redcat's Precious Metals Board has published a letter from the General Counsel of the US Treasury in support of OITC and its' Chairman. He has had the letter verified. The writers of this article only publish falsehoods, misinformation, and lies. They do so knowingly. They delete all writings countrary to their own misinformation campaign. They do so even when their own writings are left alone. Any lawsuit against these writers will have as witnesses the US Attorney General, as well as other such positioned officials. This is a fact based upon personal knowledge. Do not damage this site by allowing it to be used for malicious defamers. No amount of discussion on this site by the uninformed will bear any fruit. You cannot resolve this conflict."

• Speedy delete as an attack page. Brian G. Crawford 23:30, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
• Comment. I never heard of OITC, but the behaviour displayed by Executor-usa is not as you would expect from a reputable institution that is "more than capable of financing the acquisition and supporting same, complete with futuristic development of the company and its products into a world class corporation", where said acquisition is of the MG Rover Group and will "inject an initial $5 bill USD ($5,000,000,000 USD) with a further $5 bill USD ($5,000,000,000 USD) to expand and develop the MG Rover Group, together with a completely new range of vehicles and a new image." [1] They would have a lawyer write a letter. Are they based in Nigeria? What is "under UN Charter Control" supposed to mean? Googling "UN Charter Control no: 10" only gives OITC-related hits; are they the only organization "under UN Charter Control"? And what is "Office of International Treasury Control" supposed to mean? Why don't they have an established web presence? Everything I see smells of a scam operation, for instance this: [2]. Google and see for yourself. Lambiam^Talk 23:57, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

• Keep, cleanup, move to NPOV title, etc. This Fiji government website states that there is an organization calling itself the OITC that is misrepresenting itself, so there is certainly something to write about here. The article at this time is written to disparage its subject, but that is not its only purpose—so we can't speedy it and should fix it instead. -- SCZenz 02:00, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
• Comment. Maybe these press clips, available at Factiva and other databases will clarify the issue:
  • COMPANIES: UK: Nothing ventured - MUDLARK - CLAY HARRIS.

    By CLAY HARRIS 121 words23 June 2005Financial TimesLondon Ed1 Page 24

    English

    Sellers of companies don't often get paid by postal order. But the accountants running failed carmaker MG Rover are now owners of one for Pounds 1, courtesy of a group calling itself the "Office of International Treasury Control".

    The OITC paid the money as a deposit on its Pounds 10 bid for Rover, which it wants to restart with a "guaranteed" Dollars 5bn cash injection. The OITC, apparently based in Thailand, claims to be a secret part of the United Nations. The UN denies it exists and says there is no such thing as a "UN Charter Control Number", quoted by the organisation to prove its validity. [3]

    20050623L124.803 Document FTFT000020050623e16n0003g

  • City: City Diary: Is it Bangkok or bust for Rover?

    edited by Sophie Brodie 141 words 27 April 2005 The Daily Telegraph

    034 English

    A Mr David Sale and a Dr Ray Dam claim to have offered to buy MG Rover for $5billion. They say they're from a Thailand-based outfit called the Office of International Treasury Control created by ``Governments of the World of Legal Decadency. They complain that Rover's administrators PWC won't take their offer seriously but say that Tony Blair has acknowledged it in a letter. Downing St says it has no record of a letter but that it ``could still be in the system. PWC has never heard of them. Nevertheless, Dam and Sale have big plans for Rover if their offer is accepted - factories in Longbridge, Russia, Africa, Asia and the Middle East. Alas, the Bangkok number on their letterhead doesn't exist. [4]

    Document DT00000020050427e14r0000u

    —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.215.205.163 (talk • contribs) 02:05, 27 April 2006 (UTC), format cleaned up by Jeff Q (talk) 02:13, 27 April 2006 (UTC) From 24.215.205.163: Thank you for cleaning it up. I am yet to learn how to sign in the talk pages. Sorry for the inconvenience.

• Keep but needs severe cleanup, and a move to Office of International Treasury Control instead. A quick Google of that term shows up several news articles that point to a massive fraud being perpetrated, so it's probably notable just on the sheer audacity and amount of money being involved. --khaosworks (talk • contribs) 02:47, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
• Keep per Khaosworks. Keep an eye out for Executor socks. Thatcher131 03:31, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
• Move per Khaosworks. Quasi-legal puffery sounds exactly like typical fraud perpetration, devoid of any verfiable details. But we do need to make this a clean, well written, properly referenced article. I see it this way: if this is a fraud, they won't be able to produce reliable sources and have earned this global outing; if this is really a secret U.N.-sponsored operation, its inability to defend itself with unreleasable, unprovable documents will demonstrate why such things are anathema in free societies. Either way, the article (under an NPOV title) is justified by information provided by reliable sources, per WP policy. ~ Jeff Q (talk) 03:51, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
• Comment several people have suggested renaming, however this name is a result of an earlier vfd. Office of International Treasury Control Theresa Knott | Taste the Korn 04:31, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
  • AfD's can recommend ordinary editing decisions, like a move, but their advice is not binding. And Keep Septentrionalis 05:32, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
  • Only one person on the AFD suggested that name as far as I can see, and their reasoning was flawed in my view: 'Advance fee fraud' is not comparable in POV terms to 'OITC fraud', because 'Advance fee' is a type of fraud and not an organisation. I strongly believe the article should be renamed back. I don't see the consensus Alf referred to when he made the move. --Sam Blanning^(talk) 08:45, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
    • Alf has given his blessing to reversing the move on my talk page. --Sam Blanning^(talk) 11:06, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
• Comment Executor-usa has made further arguments for the article's deletion on his talk page. I am unwilling to copy and paste them here due to their lengthiness. --Sam Blanning^(talk) 08:45, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
  • While I am personally convinced that OITC is a scam, I am not comfortable, in the absence of some formal finding, to label it as such, hence my suggestion that it be moved back to the original name. But either way, I still cast my vote for keeping. Executor-usa (talk · contribs)'s reply, unfortunately, seems to contain information that is unverifiable except through original research. --khaosworks (talk • contribs) 09:46, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
• Comment My personal convictions are the same as khaosworks'. I moved the article after a complaint about this article on my talk page and reading through the article and the previous AfD, this was probably a bad move on my part - at the time I saw it the same as Internet fraud, Credit card fraud, Wire fraud, Click fraud and the like. It has now become apparent that this will be difficult to prove as fraud per se and am content to have it moved back to the original location. I see no reason to delete the article though I see immense problems in maintaining the article's neutrality but having been involved in inadvertantly clouding the waters, I refrain from voicing that opinion. --Alf ^melmac 14:01, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
• Move, keep, clean with a firehose per above. JDoorjam Talk 17:52, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
• Comment: I'm not sufficiently informed on the subject to know whether this article should be deleted, but at the very least it's highly POV. Any article that's prefaced with something along the lines of "The Office of International Treasury Control, (OITC), appears to be a scam of international proportions." needs a cleanup of epic proportions. Redxiv 01:16, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
  • I have attempted to address your concern by changing the first paragraph and referrign, with links, to the OITC own account of their creation (as published in the London Daily Telegraph), and to the newspapers that have not refrained from clearly stating that the OITC is an international scam and a hoax. As I have mentioned in the discussion page, all the original information included there has been taken from governmental websites and well-known newspapers. The so called "sources" presented by the OITC people are nothing but a list of incoherences and bizarre claims, wholly unverifiable. I hope the wikipedians will be able to consider the difference and will allow this very necessary article to remain.24.215.205.163 (talk) 02:13, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

Speedy Delete. Comment. This articles carries dangers that are beyond comprehension. In both cases, Ecuador and Fiji, the newspaper reports are based upon supposition, they are totally based upon flawed information and in the Ecuador case, the press is using its power to destroy a rival. The MG Rover situation stating that OITC offered $10 is nonsense. There is a great deal more to it than that. I am a retired police officer, but I spent a lot of time years ago investigating Keith Scott who is an Australian citizen. I have found that while he does engage in unusual financial dealings, as stated by Police Commissioner Hughes, he also delivers. I know of no case where Scott or OITC have ever engaged in fraud, and they have been operating for more than ten years. Yes there is a file a foot thick on Scott, but there is NO evidence that he has ever committed or intended to commit fraud. When under such surveillance, he would have been arrested and incarcerated years ago if he was a scammer. The newspapers rage in Fiji that landowners will have to mortgage their lands, which has been proven to be total nonsense.

Here is why I say this article is dangerous. 1. It definitely impairs the capacity to do correct due diligence which is available through official sources. 2. OITC will eventually sue these newspapers, of that I am sure. Sefanaia Kaumaitotoya warned the press on this. The Prime Minister in Fiji is now very careful what he says about OITC today, Andrew Hughes has gone silent, even though the government and police websites still carry these statements. Extension of these falsehoods and the perpetuating of them is not only irresponsible, for they are merely supposition born from ignorance, these attacks on OITC are criminal. I know OITC lawyers will be asking for the IP address and identity of the person posting these falsehoods. I am told that a leading law firm in Fiji will be paid by OITC in this coming week to file against the Fiji Times and FijiSun Newspapers and to file against The Commissioner of Police. Is this an empty threat. No. As will be learned this week,it is a fact. I am not certain of the legal liabilities of Wikipedia as such, but you will be hearing from OITC lawyers this coming week

The Reserve Bank of Fiji have constantly refused to denounce OITC. Why? Because they know better. Posted by Waffleknocka 28/4/2006

• Comment: The person posting under the username Waffleknocka has appeared here before, and was one of the first vandalizing the original article to suit the views of the OITC. He uses the IP address 202.47.96.40. As any other interested person can check, such adress is one of the many proxys used to hide and to disguise their real IP online (a Google search will show it in many lists all over the net). So, as usual and working with rather rudimentary means, the OITC people are attempting to hide while menacing other users and the very Wikipedia with supposed lawsuits. 24.215.205.122

• Comment. I, Lambiam, am the sole plenipotentiary authorized by the Intergalactic Connivance of Utterly Demoralizing Barbarities to pay 6 TRILLION (6.000.000.000.000,000) Doghdoohs to the first person to conclusively show that the OITC is not a scam. As a proof of which 3 TRILLION (3.000.000.000.000,000) Doghdoohs in bullion kryptonite are held in Escrow in an impervium vault at the First And Only Monodic Self-Storage Facility on the second moon of Endurium. This is a known fact, there is no point in "denying" it!!! My credentials under code YCFSOTPAOTT are ultra-secret and can only be viewed by anyone with Intergalactic Clearance Level (ICL) AAAAA++ or AAAAA**. Lambiam^Talk 19:11, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.