Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Newtonmas (Third nomination)

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result of the debate was: after three AfDs, it's time for our first pillar of Wikipedia:Verifiability to assert itself. The external references (both those in this AfD, and the previous ones) make it very clear what this is: that now and then, someone points out that Newton was born on 25th December in a non-standard calendar, and makes an appropriate pun on 'Christmas'. But nowhere has it been remotely verified that significant numbers of people actually celebrate this as an organised holiday. I'm sure Pharos' science teacher was a damn good teacher, but he's not a reliable source.

To head off protest that the majority for deletion isn't enough - AfD is not a vote, and the discussion here, as well as the previous ones, have served their purpose by showing that while lots of people like the idea (particularly the young scientifically-oriented ex-Christian Westerners that make up much of our systemic bias), it hasn't caught on enough to be worth including in an encyclopaedia. Delete. --Sam Blanning^(talk) 11:27, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Newtonmas

Usually nominated at or about Christmas, for reasons which evaporate as soon as you check Newton's birth date, this is a festival apparently proposed by Gordon Worley which has never really caught on. Unusually, I'd say the Google Test says it all: Newtonmas: 845 ghits. "Pi day" (quoted): 357,000 ghits. Michaelmas: ~1m ghits. Lammas: ~1.6m ghits. Christmas: >350,000,000 ghits. So: this is, according to the Google test, approximately 0.0002% as significant as the mainstream festival which would fall on the same date if it weren't for the fact that the calendar changed in 1582. This appears to be a conceit (in the second sense) with no substantive evidence of significance or currency. Disclaimer: I am a great fan of Robert Hooke and if it were Hookemas... I'd still have AfD'd it. Probably. Just zis Guy you know? 22:40, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

Previous votes: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Newtonmas/2004-12-24, Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Newtonmas

• Woeful Strong Delete I love the idea, but it does do badly at the google test Bwithh 22:46, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
• Keep. Google test is never definitive; there is useful, sourced information in this article, and the thing is explicitly not just a creation of Worley as claimed by JzG. Sdedeo (tips) 23:14, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

Comment of the four external reference links in the article - one is some guys homepage where he admits that that not many people are celebrating newtonmas but asks us to "trust him" that its going to be "a big hit" (and also please click on some of his ad links); the second link is to an obscure, bare webpage on Transhumanism which lists brief mentions of a few holidays including Newtonmas as well as "Speck Day" which is to celebrate the 1996 event of a speck of dust "inspiring" a wannabefamous transhumanist, Darren Reynolds (Googling "Darren Reynolds" and speck give a grand total of 3 (three) google hits); the third links is to an article which uses the coincidence of Newton's birthday and Christmas to make a pun in its title but does not mention Newtonmas as a festival; the fourth link is to a excerpt from an obscure science fiction story where "Gravmas" is celebrated in China (Europe has suffered some kind of apocalyptic decline) some time around the 38th century (I'd mention that wikipedia is not a crystal ball, but this is just ridiculous). And finally the 1984 radio broadcast by Michael E. Marotta mentioned in the article is totally unreferenced and, in any case, is not evidence of an actual festival. Bwithh 00:07, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

• • Follow-up Here is an physics listserv/newsgroup email from Michael E. Marotta from December 2005 where Marotta - the person who is claimed to have been the first to come up with the festival idea- says - partly in response to the wikipedia article -that he has been sending Newtonmas greetings since the mid-1980s, but also describes this practice this way: "It was always a personal quirk which my friends accepted." Bwithh 00:19, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
    • Follow-up to the follow-up In Marotta's followup Dec 23 email to his original Dec 17 Newtonmas greeting to the physics listserv/newsgroup, as there have been no replies from anyone to his greeting, he sarcastically suggests that next year he will be giving his greeting a controversial title such as "Was Newton Gay?" rather than "Merry Newtonmas". Bwithh 00:59, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

• Keep. My main concern with marginally-notable holidays is that by WP endorsing it, WP becomes a promoter (Google scrapes WP in no time, it seems, and puts the WP entry at the top of the list) and hence WP becomes a holiday-maker. That is an active role that is unacceptable for a neutral observer, which WP must remain. However, in this case I found this, on a fairly popular site, which shows me that we won't be first to embrace this new holiday. Another criterion I have is whether any commercial or money making enterprise is banking on its promotion - in this case I don't see it. Add the 'WP is not paper' policy to it, and it becomes a keeper. Crum375 00:11, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

Oops, I think that site may have picked up an earlier WP version, so I reserve judgment for now. Crum375 00:16, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

Comment. After some more Googling, I think we are too late on this one, it looks like an old version of the article on WP did act as a promoter, and now the cat's out of the bag. So it will probably be a keeper but I will remain neutral. Crum375 00:24, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

What Wikipedia creates, it should also be able to help destroy. muahahahaha. Bwithh 00:30, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

I am not so sure. You cannot unbite an apple. Crum375 00:49, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

• Delete Wikipedia is not for something made up by an atheist while drinking eggnog on Chrismas eve, wondering how one can continue a seasonal tradition, while at the same time stripping it off its original meaning, and at the same time keep one's reputation as an excentric now that neighbour also has bought a hybrid car. --Eivind^t@c 01:17, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

• Well I am neutral on this, but 'atheist' is POV - if enough people of any persuasion celebrate something it becomes notable. Also, XMas to the best of my knowledge started out as a pagan holiday long BC. The issue is only is it notable and can we verify it. Crum375 01:41, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

I'm very aware that XMas (sic) started out as a pagan holiday, I celebrate Yule, not Christmas. Newtonmas or Leonarday or Einsteinukkah are all made up "traditions" and not notable IMO --Eivind^t@c 22:47, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

I will try to make it as clear as I can. Every single holiday or tradition is 'made up'. The only issue for us here in 'admitting' is whether it is notable enough or not. We don't judge notability by our opinion of it or by whether we like the name, or whether we like the people that celebrate it. We base notability solely on reliable and verifiable sources that tell us whether it is 'widely celebrated', at least among some communities. Note that I withdrew from voting on this particular topic, so my point is generic. You can have the last word. Crum375 23:02, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

• Delete. Its a personal quirk. Happy Festivus. -- GWO
• Delete per Bwithh. KillerChihuahua^?!? 22:07, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
• Keep I heard of this one before.  Grue  14:34, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
• Keep. My science teacher had us all celebrate this when I was a kid. It was not made up by Gordon Whorley at all.--Pharos 07:54, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.