Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Network of European Technocrats

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. The lately added references to newspaper reports do not include links, so the depth of the coverage cannot be evaluated. Sandstein (talk) 10:52, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Network of European Technocrats

Network of European Technocrats (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) (delete) – (View log)

This is an article on a European offshot of the Technocracy movement. It is entirely self-sourced, and appears to be the work exclusively of single purpose accounts associated with the movement. Google finds 57 unique hits - http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=%22Network+of+European+Technocrats%22&start=80&sa=N - and there is no evidence that this is significant independent of the Technocracy Movement, which is itself not actually that important. I can't actually find the claim of notability within this article, but the owners will obviously dispute deletion so it needs to go to AfD. This looks to me to be vanispamcruftisement. Guy (Help!) 17:50, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

• Delete unless independent attestation of significance can be provided.--Doc^g 18:07, 29 March 2008 (UTC)
• Delete - no reliable third-party sources Fritzpoll (talk) 18:26, 29 March 2008 (UTC)
• Delete per nom and Fritzpoll. Disclosure, this was brought to my attention on IRC. I then evaluated it on my own. :) ++Lar: t/c 18:30, 29 March 2008 (UTC)
• Delete - Self-sourced. No reliable sources or significant independent coverage. Think outside the box 19:33, 29 March 2008 (UTC)
• Delete - The list of noncompliance to Wikipedia standards is long. Here is an example of some issues pointed out concerning the Technocracy movement article and this Network of European Technocrats article. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Requests_for_mediation/Technocrac_movementskip sievert (talk) 00:30, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
• Keep - The article certainly does not deserve deletion, for one thing it isn't correct to say there were no third party sources, there was newspaper articles (although they were in Swedish). Besides, it originally started as a splitting from the Technocracy movement article, because it was certainly relevant there and because there was far too much to write about it on that page alone, it was given it's own article. If this article is deleted then it's contents will simply be moved back into Technocracy movement, which will again make that article far too long and in need of splitting. As for notability, certainly it's not all that notable, but the same can be said of a whole host of articles. NET is currently about as notable as a small political party or NGO, which certainly qualifies it for inclusion, in my opinion. --Hibernian (talk) 15:26, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
• Keep The article now has references to external third party sources (primary sources) and meets the criteria for notability. Isenhand (talk) 05:08, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

It is noted.. that Hibernian who publicly states that his actual name is Ross Murphy (on his wikipedia user page) is a registered user of the NET forum... the actual organization of which Andrew Wallace (Isenhand wiki editor and creator of this article) is the Director of.. and how this could regard to the NET article. http://en.technocracynet.eu/index.php?option=com_comprofiler&task=userProfile&user=85&Itemid=65 Network of European Technocrats - Ross Murphy user page. It is also noted that Technocracy movement article would also be a good article to consider being put up for articles for deletion... as it seemingly was also mostly only an avenue to promote the NET article... and in actuality there is no Technocracy movement aside from the perception of NET and its users (About six active bloggers or forum commentators). The original group (Technocracy Incorporated) of which I myself am not a member... is still around and advocating their program... of which basically nothing resembles the original research of NET. The two groups have nothing in common as to ideas. Only shared terms adopted by the NET group.. and the NET group while using Technocracy Incorporated as its jumping off point... also says themselves repeatedly that they are unconnected.

It is also noted now that editor Isenhand has a commercial self published book out that he advertises in references on the NET site at the cost of around $36.00. Technocracy: Building a new sustainable society for a post carbon world by Andrew Wallace (Book) in Engineering... Because Isenhand editor here.. is the author Andrew Wallace and Isenhand is continually making an effort to edit the NET article with edits that conform to his book.. which is offered on NET and which is highly conjectural and speculative with original research.. in my opinion.. it may seem that editor is attempting to maintain with edits here... material that conforms to his commercial book.. is that not something that has to be scrutinized here in the context of other issues ?

It is noted also that Ross Murphy and Isenhand may form a kind of consensus as they edit in tandem to control certain aspects of Technocracy related material on wikipedia. This is a very distinct pattern in my opinion. skip sievert (talk) 15:38, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

I told you before that I'm not actually a member of NET, but if we want to start "noting" things, then how about the fact that you are only really here because you have a long running personal and ideological vendetta against NET, and care nothing for actual Wiki rules. --Hibernian (talk) 15:45, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

Not true. I am strictly going by the facts as I view them in this situation. You are entitled to your opinion though. skip sievert (talk) 16:34, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

None of that matters skip. Articles should follow from what the sources say and authors should leave personal problems out it. Hibernian, Kolzene , myself and the other editors have no “control” (why are you so obsessed with controlling things?) over the article. It is open for anyone to edit, even you. Hibernian, Kolzene, myself etc. just cooperate, which is what we are supposed to do on wiki and we don’t always agree with each other (see for example how we all worked together over splitting the article). We work from the sources and put information in that we find in either primary or secondary sources keeping our own personal opinions or problems we might have with the other editors or their organisations out of it. Isenhand (talk) 05:18, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

How is it that none of that matters Isenhand.. when your group (NET) of which you are the Director of.. enforce edits and in my opinion also has been enforcing original conclusion information of their own design? Your group wrote the entire NET Article. You yourself originated it from scratch...which would seem to violate writing about yourself guideline. This does fly in the face of the most basic wiki guide lines does it not ? The person you mention above.. Kolzene is also a registered user on your site Network of European Technocrats http://en.technocracynet.eu/index.php?option=com_comprofiler&task=userProfile&user=254&Itemid=65 Profile page Network of European Technocrats - Kolzene. Does this not compound the aspects that a group of people are writing about themselves and controlling information? What does it mean when the group that you direct may be making up the sources as they please and feel they own the article in the sense of not allowing for things to be at least partially corrected within the article by an outside person ? I do believe that the article was split as a type of advertising vehicle only. For that reason Technocracy movement in my opinion should also be an article to be looked at for deletion because it is merely a construct to support the contention of NET being a Technocracy movement element. A closed loop of special interest does not represent a consensus, only a group that has vested interest in a certain presentation. skip sievert (talk) 16:24, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

This page should not be deleted.

The article does not have spam or advertising nor any copyright infringing material.

It is not a hoax, as it refers to a legitimate organisation formed in Sweden in 2005 and registed with the tax authorities in 2006 (thus not a vanity page). Its has an international membership from many European counties but also from outside Europe (see the translations of the page into other languages for the scope of interest). The organisation conducts and organises one the ground activities mainly in Europe. The organization forms an important part of the modern Technocracy movement and has been referred to an linked on forums and blogs (thus has relevance and interest to people outside the technocracy movement).

It has secondary and primary sources (see Gunnarsson, Olle. "Författarskaper utmanar", Västerbottens-Kuriren, 18 February 2008, p. 22. (Swedish) and Emanuelsson, Erik (3 Nov 2006). Det teknokratiska idealsamhället. Noden. Retrieved on 19 June 2007). The organisation has been mentioned in papers and magazines and its ideas have been on national TV giving it an international coverage (I was one TV twice in the UK taking about NET's ideas). Some of the relevant primary and secondary sources have been cited (but are often removed by one editor and the Noden link is down at the moment due to changes in their offices).

It does not fall into the catagoriy of Overcategorization.

It is not gibberish nor nonsense as it refers to a legitimate organisation. The information is correct (unless altered by one edits for example NET was formed in 2005. The registration refers to registration for Tax purposes not the actual creation of the organisation.).

The organistion is note worthy, For example it has a peer reviewed research paper published as well as having articles published in peer reviewed magazines. (see for example : "Multi-Agent Negotiation Strategies Utilising Heuristics for the Flow of AGVs". Andrew Wallace. In the International Journal of Production Research. Vol 45. No. 2. 15 January 2007. Pages 309 – 322.). The organisiton has been referred to in newspapers as well.

The request for meditation link refers to a problem with one specific editor (there were two attempts to sort out the problem with this one editor and they both failed – thus the problem remains). All the other editors involved with the technocracy pages as well as other edits have had problems with this on specific editor and have dropped out editing the page because of the those problems. See also http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Requests_for_mediation/Technocracy_movement_2.

BTW, is this just aimed at the Englsih site or all the other languages as well? Isenhand (talk) 06:57, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

Please provide reliable sources to articles, news stories, research, etc that focus on this organization, not just mention it in passing. That's what is lacking, no substantial evidence of notability has been offered. If someone is removing sources, provide the diffs to their addition here, please. ++Lar: t/c 17:19, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

I did, see Gunnarsson, Olle. "Författarskaper utmanar", Västerbottens-Kuriren, 18 February 2008, p. 22. (Swedish) and Emanuelsson, Erik, "Det teknokratiska idealsamhället". Noden. 3 Nov 2006. Both are newspaper articles about NET and its director. The second one was online but was taken down. I know there was some others as well and I'll try and find them this week. Isenhand (talk) 05:16, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

Another ref: "Med vetenskapens välsignelse" in Fältbiologen, nr 2. Page 9. 2005. Fältbiologe is a newspaper for biologists and the article is about NET. Isenhand (talk) 10:40, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

It is noted that Isenhand the wikipedia editor above.. is also Andrew Wallace the NET director and also the originator of the article Network of European Technocrats. By saying that.. I am not revealing anything that is not well known public information. Andrew Wallace (who is mentioned prominently in the NET article... written by himself mostly) has used the pen name of Isenhand for many years. In other words the significant aspects about this article all seem to revolve around some one who is writing about themselves and their activity on a commercial website. The above statement.. Both are newspaper articles about NET and its director. end quote.. Isenhand - this could easily be perceived wrongly if that information were not known here. skip sievert (talk) 13:16, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

That’s irrelevant, skip. Wikipedia is open to anyone to change. That’s why I don’t ask for you to be banned and wiki remains one of the few places you haven’t been permanently band from. All that matter is that the content of the articles follows from the sources (rather than your opinion of the world). Isenhand (talk) 05:07, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

Here are a few things that may make for interesting reading. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:NPA Wikipedia:No personal attacks. Here is another. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Notability_%28organizations_and_companies%29 Wikipedia:Notability (organizations and companies) Some may find that interesting also. The one below also has some information that seems to apply in it. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Conflict_of_interest Wikipedia:Conflict of interest. This article also is full of pertinent information in my opinion. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:OWN Wikipedia:Ownership of articles.

It is noted that something as simple as removing the repetition about how and where NET recruits members from.. that is repeated twice in the article (a seeming editing error) is put back in the article.. with the Isenhand edit. It may be note worthy also that in Isenhands haste to revert any edits in the article in question.. even spelling mistakes corrected... are reverted to being misspelled again. skip sievert (talk) 14:02, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.