Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Neo-Nazism in Estonia

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. Neıl ☎ 11:35, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Neo-Nazism in Estonia

Neo-Nazism in Estonia (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) – (View log)

Delete unless anybody thinks that an article about 12 skinheads in 2001, a student considering leaving the country, and 3 members of the Russian neo-Nazi group were put on trial in Tallinn, + an incident in 2006 in front of McDonalds the only facts in the article make it encyclopedic. There has been enough time for everybody to come up with any facts that there is a considerable Neo-Nazi movement in Estonia, so far the 4 refed facts have remained the only facts in the article.
Also the article has been created by User:AspireQ, a suspected sock of the sockpuppet master User:Bloomfield who is known for creating bogus articles about Estonia. --Termer 06:41, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

• Delete This is utter crap. It's really sad that some people (all too often soviet apologists) keep trying to smear Estonians as Nazis and Wikipedia shouldn't be a place where this drivel gets peddled. This article is just a handful of incidents involving a handful of nutters. There's 'neo-nazism' in every town in the world by this measure. Nick mallory 08:09, 4 December 2007 (UTC)
• Weak delete - Let's create an article - Neo-Nazism in [insert hated country here]. I notice there isn't even such an article for Germany, UK, or other places like where they have real validity. The Evil Spartan 08:18, 4 December 2007 (UTC)
• Merge/redirect Anything worth keeping can go into Neo-Nazism which already has sections for various countries. Colonel Warden 10:40, 4 December 2007 (UTC)
• Delete. Apparently nothing really notable here. There are neo-nazi, neo-stalinist, neo-hippie or whatever movements all over the world. They need something more to actually become notable. Suva Чего? 11:10, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

Comment. Good idea, Suva. Maybe we should rename it to Extremism in Estonia or something like that and throw in this lot as well. Oth 15:28, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

Hmm... Maybe, but then we should probably throw out the skinheads. They are mostly just kids playing to be extremist. Suva Чего? 16:55, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

• Keep but improve. There is certainly a neonazi scene in Estonia, and there's enough material (especially if the timeframe is widened) to have an ok article. Anecdotal and unsourced material should be weeded out though. --Soman 17:54, 4 December 2007 (UTC)
• Comment Material on participation of Estonian neonazis in manifestations in Sweden: http://expo.se/2003/48_458.html (2002) and http://expo.se/2004/48_1226.html (2004). --Soman 18:03, 4 December 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment Seems that both of those only mention Estonian neo-Nazis passingly and are not about them - also, I don't think that the page qualifies as a reliable source. There are handful of neo-Nazis in Estonia, most are "imported" - from Russia, naturally, but also from US (see Craig Cobb) and Finland (see Risto Teinonen). -- Sander Säde 19:49, 4 December 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment There is certainly a neonazi scene in Estonia? So far the provided text talks about a Neo-Nazi scene in Sweden. So once the opinion is to keep and improve, should we at first create an article Neo-Nazism in Sweden perhpas? Also, the provided material, it mentions someone from Estonia among other countries taking a part of this march in Sweden but who exactly were these people, the 12 skinheads mentioned in the Neo-Nazism in Estonia article?--Termer (talk) 08:43, 5 December 2007 (UTC)
• Merge/Redirect to Neo-Naziism. Neo-Naziism may or may not be a problem in Estonia, but there's a lot of evidence pointing to a politically motivated smear campaign by Russia. Most countries of the world have Neo Nazi movements of one kind of another (including Russia itself!), so this article doesn't really provide anything particularly informative. Article fails NPOV without more sources about the claimed smear campaign and on the politics of the matter. Nobody of Consequence 19:28, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

• Merge/redirect to Neo-Nazism#Estonia. There is not enough material for a separate article, but there have been incidents that should be mentioned (repeated "import" from Russia, previously mentioned Craig Cobb and Risto Teinonen - but WP:LIVING must be followed). Alternatively, Extremism in Estonia could be created, which would allow including proto-Nazi groups such as Nashi and Nochnoy Dozor. -- Sander Säde 19:55, 4 December 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment to all Merge/redirect suggestions. Please point out what kind of facts should be included in the suggested redirect

a) 12 skinheads celebrating Hitlers birthday in 2001?

b) a student considering leaving the country?

c) an incident in front of McDonalds?

b) 3 members of the Russian National Unity were put on trial in Tallinn?

e) denoting any political movements mentioned above such as Nashi or Nochnoy Dozor etc. and/or any living persons mentioned above as an American Craig Cobb and a Finn Risto Teinonen as Neo-Nazi?

Is that all what it takes to become notable on WP? --Termer (talk) 09:00, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

What can be referenced? There are some neo-Nazis in Estonia, majority of them Russians, some alleged neonazis from US and Finland have moved to Estonia and are trying to find followers. Incidents are isolated and rare, Russia is trying to allege state-level fascism in Estonia, however, there is no proof of that.

BTW, I found out that Cobb's farm "Valgemaa" ("Whiteland") is about 10km from where I live. Too bad I am such a gentle and good-natured person (n/c), or I'd pay him a visit. With a torch.

-- Sander Säde 09:34, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

How did he ever get residency in the country in the first place? Martintg (talk) 11:16, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Apparently Craig Cobb isn't his real name - it may be Craig Cobbrdon Baum ([1]) or David Cobb ([2]). Probably nothing came out with his real name - and also, most likely he hasn't commited any crimes in EU or Estonia, so no criminal record. FBI isn't consulted in residency queries... -- Sander Säde 12:51, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

• Comment: You were kidding right? at least one of the sources described the guy by his opponents like a fool who is looking for attention. Another web page you linked here speaks of him as In fact, "oddity" is the best way to describe him. And the first article commented the guys he is together with on the pic as drunks having trouble standing up straight. And this is what you'd see fit under WP:Notability? I'm sorry, you must have been kidding.--Termer (talk) 05:16, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

Methinks you haven't looked at WP:BIO: "The person must have been the subject of published secondary source material which is reliable, intellectually independent, and independent of the subject." And oddball or not, he has a great many articles published about him. Termer, Wikipedia isn't only for "good" material - this is encyclopedia, not travel agency leaflet. -- Sander Säde 06:07, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

I'm sorry but I'm still missing how could anybody see this guy fit into an encyclopedia? It would be like awarding his seek for attention, thats what the guy is after like one of the sources says. Listing the guy in a travel agency leaflet would be another thing. A crazy American Nazi living in Estonia sounds like a tourist attraction indeed.--Termer (talk) 07:38, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

I have to agree with Termer on this. The estonian neonazis are nothing but a bunch of wannabes who like to drink beer and complain about black people coming into estonia. The "notable" ones are just some stupid media clowns who like to see their picture on the paper. Suva Чего? 08:50, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

Of course they're nothing more than a handful of posers. However, I don't think that outright deletion is right, as there is *some* material about that. Like I've said already, not enough for a separate article, but enough for a ten-line section. -- Sander Säde 16:11, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

I sure do hate deletionism. I still think that article Extremism in Estonia might have some vitality. So we could list all the neo- groups and their twelve members. Without actually deleting anything. Suva Чего? 22:19, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

Well, be bold and create Extremism in Estonia, redirecting Neo-Nazism in Estonia there? -- Sander Säde 06:14, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

creating Extremism in Estonia? I think it's a very bad idea. You could already tell that it's going to be a POV battleground. What you think that if you call the Putin's Nashi etc. extremists, it's going to be the end of it? An article like that just gives too much room for interpretations and unless anybody have called themselves directly "extremists" , you're not going to have any NPOV content in there and it's going to be an edit warring contest instead giving a lot of opportunities to use the Fascist (epithet). enough said. Sorry but -bad idea--Termer (talk) 10:56, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

• Delete per Nick mallory --Martintg (talk) 11:26, 5 December 2007 (UTC)
• Delete per nomination. There is not enough substance for an article with current name. Oth (talk) 15:17, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.