Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Napa County wineries
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- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was redirect to Napa Valley (wine). Elkman (Elkspeak) 18:03, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Napa County wineries
One line stub article that only serves the purpose of becoming a list farm needlessly advertising for these wineries (like Sonoma County wineries became), which is something the Wine Project actively discourages with Wikipedia not being a wineguide. Furthermore we currently have a wine region article-Napa Valley (wine) that includes an appropriate external link to a list of Napa County wineries. AgneCheese/Wine 23:28, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
- Delete the proper place for information about an American wine region and its wineries really is the article on the AVA. The AVA is the legal defined area, and is a concept that's well known in the wine world. Notable wineries can easily be mentioned in the article, but I don't see any more a benefit of having a list of many non-notable wineries than having an article listing the restaurants in a city. --- The Bethling(Talk) 02:41, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
- Delete No real content worth preserving. Toddstreat1 04:13, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of Business-related deletions. -- Gavin Collins 08:15, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
- Keep or Merge any useful content with Napa Valley (wine). As discussed for the two other deletion nominations we need to make an underlying decision about whether coverage of the wineries is part of the coverage of the wine, or intended for a separate article. Covering wineries is not advertising them, and I am concerned that the approach of downplaying wine as a business furthers a misunderstanding of what wine means to California. In the business and culture of wine, it is the County and the valley that are important, not the AVA. As for the list, there are at least several dozen notable wineries in Napa Valley. It would be artificial and counterproductive to try to stuff them into a prose format. Whatever we do it should be consistent with the other major winemaking counties in the San Francisco Bay Area.Wikidemo 09:19, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
- Respectfully, I ask if you have reviewed this particular article? If you have, what if any, useful content is there to merge? I would also note that you are incorrect in your assumption that it is the "the County and the valley that are important, not the AVA". As someone in the wine business, I can say, the AVA is everything. Millions of dollars, real estate and vineyard prices, laws and regulations all circle around the value and prestige of AVAs. It's what makes Napa, Napa and Sonoma, Sonoma, etc. Furthermore any county that has any significant wine business has an AVA for the county so I'm not sure where you see a lack of coverage. One last point, wineries that pass WP:CORP will undoubtedly receive all due encyclopedic coverage through their own article and relevant mention in related articles. A list of wineries where the vast majority of them are not notable is simply spam advertisement and are at best served as an external link on the main AVA article. AgneCheese/Wine 09:42, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
- Yes, of course I've read it. As per my comments, either we keep and expand the article because the subject's important, or we merge it into another article and expand that part. The Napa Valley wine business is huge - as per this the 391 wineries generate 40,000 jobs and a $9.5 billion economic impact. A google search shows 369,000 hits for "Napa Valley Wine" and 3,790 for "Napa Valley AVA." In a business sense the local business is important and their legal rules for inclusion are a technicality. Coverage? The field is barely covered, a bit of a black hole in Wikipedia. The Napa Valley (wine) article is only so-so. Most of the individual AVA designations are poorly covered if at all, eg Rutherford AVA. The history, personalities, related industries get no coverage. Many important wineries are missing. It's hard to tell which because there is no "spam" list, as some people put it. In fact, coverage of Napa Valley wine is basically unlinked. You have to come in from Google because there is so little wikilinking. So I'll just do the start of the alphabet: Andretti, Artesa, Atlas Peak, missing. Abreu Vineyards is there because I wrote it. Beaulieu Vineyard is there. Beringer Vineyards; no to Bouchaine Vineyards, no Bryant Family Vineyard, imagine that! We're two for eight just on the wineries I know to be notable, probably there are others I don't know. I see from looking at the wine project pages that people are high fiving each other for decreasing the stub to good article ratio. They should be lamenting that there are so few stubs, so little coverage at all. Under the circumstances we should direct our attention to expanding coverage, not discouraging it. Wikidemo 10:31, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
- Admittedly the area of wine is one of the core subjects that Wikipedia is sorely lacking in its coverage on. Hence the drive and commitment of the Wine Project to remedy that. But obviously that will take time considering the breadth of subject matter. As for decreasing stubs, I think you're missing a large point. The vast majority of stubs are "killed" by being expanded into something beyond a stub into a start or even B class article. That is a very good thing because it increases the overall quality of our articles. Yes some are merged into a bigger topic because they have little room to growth and yes, some that do not pass basic Wikipedia policies for inclusion (like WP:CORP) do get deleted but that has been a very small percentage of stubs. But as for the subject of this discussion, the topic matter of the business of Napa Valley wines can and will be ably covered in the appropriate article on the wine region, without having the spam magnet list. And for the curious, who might wish for Wikipedia to actually become a directory, there is still an appropriate external link to a list of Napa Valley wineries. AgneCheese/Wine 16:19, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
- I really can not see how anything else than officially recognised geographical areas can be the "method of organisation" for wine-related Wikipedia articles above the individual winery level and below the national level. In the case of the US, that's the AVAs and nothing else. This principle is appliable to Wikipedia articles about (almost) all wine-making countries, in difference to "home-brewed" principles. Also, I strongly disagree with the notion that the AVAs are not important. If so, why was the US wine industry ready go give up the use of "semi-generic" European terms in the US in order to in return get protection for e.g. the Napa Valley name and other AVAs in Europe? Tomas e 22:39, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
- Admittedly the area of wine is one of the core subjects that Wikipedia is sorely lacking in its coverage on. Hence the drive and commitment of the Wine Project to remedy that. But obviously that will take time considering the breadth of subject matter. As for decreasing stubs, I think you're missing a large point. The vast majority of stubs are "killed" by being expanded into something beyond a stub into a start or even B class article. That is a very good thing because it increases the overall quality of our articles. Yes some are merged into a bigger topic because they have little room to growth and yes, some that do not pass basic Wikipedia policies for inclusion (like WP:CORP) do get deleted but that has been a very small percentage of stubs. But as for the subject of this discussion, the topic matter of the business of Napa Valley wines can and will be ably covered in the appropriate article on the wine region, without having the spam magnet list. And for the curious, who might wish for Wikipedia to actually become a directory, there is still an appropriate external link to a list of Napa Valley wineries. AgneCheese/Wine 16:19, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
- Yes, of course I've read it. As per my comments, either we keep and expand the article because the subject's important, or we merge it into another article and expand that part. The Napa Valley wine business is huge - as per this the 391 wineries generate 40,000 jobs and a $9.5 billion economic impact. A google search shows 369,000 hits for "Napa Valley Wine" and 3,790 for "Napa Valley AVA." In a business sense the local business is important and their legal rules for inclusion are a technicality. Coverage? The field is barely covered, a bit of a black hole in Wikipedia. The Napa Valley (wine) article is only so-so. Most of the individual AVA designations are poorly covered if at all, eg Rutherford AVA. The history, personalities, related industries get no coverage. Many important wineries are missing. It's hard to tell which because there is no "spam" list, as some people put it. In fact, coverage of Napa Valley wine is basically unlinked. You have to come in from Google because there is so little wikilinking. So I'll just do the start of the alphabet: Andretti, Artesa, Atlas Peak, missing. Abreu Vineyards is there because I wrote it. Beaulieu Vineyard is there. Beringer Vineyards; no to Bouchaine Vineyards, no Bryant Family Vineyard, imagine that! We're two for eight just on the wineries I know to be notable, probably there are others I don't know. I see from looking at the wine project pages that people are high fiving each other for decreasing the stub to good article ratio. They should be lamenting that there are so few stubs, so little coverage at all. Under the circumstances we should direct our attention to expanding coverage, not discouraging it. Wikidemo 10:31, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
- Redirect for now to Napa Valley (wine), without prejudice to the creation of an article similar to Sonoma County wineries, based on several reliable sources on the subject of Napa Valley wineries, including Napa County Wineries (Images of America), Napa Valley: The Ultimate Winery Guide, and Ghost Wineries of Napa Valley. Deleting a valid stub article for a valid encyclopedic topic because it might someday become a list farm of non-notable wineries seems really silly to me. On the other hand, redirecting because the subject is currently covered better (although still not adequately) in another article is certainly a valid thing to do. DHowell 02:13, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
