Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Mrs. Puff

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep.--Wizardman 17:53, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Mrs. Puff

Mrs. Puff (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) – (View log)

Speedy keep by a non-admin overturned by deletion review, objections there are enough reason to relist, and the sooner the better. Listed on today's AFD page to allow full run. GRBerry 14:34, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

The result was Speedy keep PeaceNT 05:46, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

Update explanation:Speedy keep per WP:SNOW and invalid points raised for nomination. Major character, no violation of Wikipedia:Notability (fiction)#Fiction in Wikipedia, lack of sources isn't a reason to delete. (I might add that the article now properly cite its references) PeaceNT 11:55, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

Secondary fictional character (SpongeBob's driving instructor). No significance outside the SpongeBob universe (violating Wikipedia:Notability (fiction) & Wikipedia:Manual of Style (writing about fiction)). No references to independent sources saying why the character is relevant to the world. No out-of-universe perspective (or sources) so it might fit with one of the List of SpongeBob SquarePants characters or List of major SpongeBob SquarePants characters (I'm not sure what criteria is being used to differentiate these). 650l2520 00:22, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

• Keep Major Charachter, both pages are getting too big. ''[[User:Kitia|Kitia]] 00:31, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
• Keep per Kitia. Ganfon 00:45, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
• Keep per above; Mrs. Puff is the most well known character on SpongeBob besides SpongeBob, Squidward, Gary, Patrick, Krabs, and Plankton. ->AMK152^{(Talk • Contributions • Send message)} 01:06, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
• Speedy Keep I'd almost argue this is a bad faith nomination. JPG-GR 04:09, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

Even more odd is that this person's userpage is exclusively Spongebob stuff. Something just doesn't add up here... JPG-GR 04:10, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

• Keep and lol, per above. Alex43223 ^{Talk | Contribs | E-mail | C} 05:30, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so that consensus may be reached.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, ~~~~

• Relister's comment - speedy keep overturned by deletion review. Relisting on today's AFD page. GRBerry 14:34, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
• Merge. There are zero sources outside of the show, which, per the nom, fails to establish any sort of notability outside of it. Articles on characters only notable within the show don't get seperate articles. -Amarkov moo! 14:52, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
• Merge She appears in neither of the lists in the nomination, which is just weird. She isn't in the major character list, yet the other one treats her as major. Since I know nothing about this topic, I don't know which list she belongs in. But with no evidence of individual notability from independent sources about her, at this time the article should not exist on a stand alone basis. And that lack of evidence is an argument that the major list is probably incorrect. GRBerry 15:31, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
  • Certainly major, seeing the characters that are on that list. -Amarkov moo! 15:44, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
• Comment I'm somewhat neutral on this article. On the one hand, the fictional elements of the character appear to be properly referenced with episode footnotes (so an editor can just watch that episode or look up other plot information elsewhere to verify the info). However, one could also argue that per WP:NOT#IINFO, articles should not include only plot summary information, but should also have some real world context and analysis. It's not clear that this article meets that standard, since the entire thing appears to be a summary of the various plot elements involving this character.

The question of whether or not a plot-element-only character article is "encyclopedic" by WP:NOT and WP:FICT standards would seem to me to be a fairly broad question covering virtually any article about fictional characters on Wikipedia. So it might make more sense to bring it up as a topic on the talk pages for those policies/guidelines, and perhaps look at a way of maybe clarifying the language of WP:FICT regarding plot-element only character summaries. For my part, I could go either way, so long as character articles are handled somewhat consistently. Just some thoughts to consider while deciding what to do with Mrs. Puff's article. Dugwiki 16:26, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

Oh, and to reply to Peace's specific comments at the top of the afd, I'll mention that Wikipedia:Manual of Style (writing about fiction) specifically says, in bold print, that "Wikipedia is an out-of-universe source, and all articles about fiction and elements of fiction should take an out-of-universe perspective." It goes on to explain the differences between in-universe and out-of-universe perspective, and that out-of-universe perspective includes things like critical reception, sales figures, real world factors influencing the design, and "a summary of the plot or elements of character and exposition, treated briefly, and clearly defined as fictional." This could be taken as further indication that while a fictional character article can include plot elements, it should also include information that isn't taken directly from the plots. Dugwiki 16:33, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

• Keep If really think this should be merged, propose a merge, don't propose a deletion. And there is no way this should be deleted. FrozenPurpleCube 18:23, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
• Keep- she is an important fictional character with significance in general society, particularly in the United States. Astrotrain 18:27, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
• Delete, important or not, fails WP:N without reliable secondary sources cited. May be appropriate for a merge to a parent article and/or a move to a wiki which is themed to SpongeBob. Seraphimblade ^{Talk to me [Wikipedia:Editor review/Seraphimblade 2|Please review me!]]} 19:56, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
• Merge Lacks sources to support a stand alone article. Inkpaduta 21:33, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
• Delete or Merge as above Bwithh 00:19, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
• Keep Major player in the SpongeBob universe, has served as primary focus in several episodes and will almost certainly star in more to come. Captain Infinity 00:26, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
• Keep. SpongeBob SquarePants is huge. Therefore, all characters are notable enough for articles. Wiwaxia 14:03, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
• Merge. Contrary to what some people are arguing, notability of the show does not automatically confer notability on all it's characters (Otherwise, we would be flooded with articles about individual minor characters from shows like Naruto). In this case, there's no reliable secondary sources to show what kind of impact Mrs. Puff has had outside of the SpongeBob series, so she fails the WP:FICT notability guidelines. NeoChaosX (talk, walk) 00:38, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
• Keep. People that want to delete articles like this never quote the guidelines that say minor characters can have their own articles when there is enough info to justfy it. There are plenty of ways to improve Wikipedia without needlessly raining on one another's parades. Wikipedia is not paper. Merging articles like this back into the subject that spawned them makes the final product unwieldy. --House of Scandal 12:24, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
  • And if they have notability outside of the show. She does not. You can make lots of information on any TV character by simply mentioning every time they appear, but that does not mean they should necessarily get a seperate article. -Amarkov moo! 15:33, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

• Strong Keep: Both articles she could be merged to are WAAAY too long and she is a notable character in SpongeBob. Henchman 2000 19:13, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
  • Praytell, how does she meet WP:FICT, then? NeoChaosX (talk, walk) 23:53, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.