Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Mr. Butch

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result of the debate was No consensus = keep (6/4).May the Force be with you! Shreshth91($ |-| r 3 $ |-| t |-|) 16:12, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Mr._Butch

Non-notable as a musician, coverage in a non-notable fanzine, limited google hits with lots of mirroring. Only real claim to fame seems to be his guitar work and occasional performances and being kicked out of Kenmore Square --badlydrawnjeff 20:43, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

• Keep There is no basis for this article to be deleted per the Deletion Guidelines. Mr. Butch IS a notable figure in the recent (past 20 years or so) history of Boston, with a fairly substantial cult following. --RoachMcKrackin 19:27, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

• Delete. --badlydrawnjeff 20:43, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

• Keep It: Yes, he isn't found on the internet much because he doesn't use the internet himself. Most people I've mentioned him to in Boston know who he is. It sounds like you're basically saying that people who are "haves" rather than "have nots" and are able to slap their names up all over the internet and be promoted in mainstream ways are somehow better people or more notable.

• I particularly like the idea of having a person who's chronically homeless and likely has persistent mental illness being listed for reasons other than having committed a crime or been the victim of one, which are the only reasons the mainstream hears about most people in his demographic. He's known for his personality and his artistry, which I think are positive things and should be encouraged.Triangular 21:15, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

• • Yes, but how does this prove notability? --badlydrawnjeff 21:33, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

• If you've lived in Boston for any significant period of time in the last 15 years, you probably know who he is.

• yeah, definitely leave it in. he's a phenom, a living urban legend.

• Leave it. He's one of those people that everyone in Boston seems to know, even if they don't realize it. Bethling 22:46, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Is he? I've spent significant time in Boston, and I only heard of him last Friday. --badlydrawnjeff 19:10, 7 November 2005 (UTC)
    • So just because you've never heard of him until recently doesn't mean he's a significant figure in Boston? --RoachMcKrackin 19:27, 7 November 2005 (UTC)
      • But that's the thing: He's not all that significant. "Mr. Butch" + boston gets under 450 google hits, many of which are mirrors. If he was truly significant, he'd be better known and have more notability. I know that you've really only signed up recently, but notability is a reason to have an article here. His musical "career" doesn't show notability, and the idea that many people know him isn't all that established anyways. I'm one to vote to keep most things, but this is such an extreme case that I don't think a desire to highlight a positive homeless person trumps notability precedent. At this point, anyways, the keeps appear to have it to at least leave the article as a no consensus, but that doesn't change what he really is. Or let me put it another way - I've personally been featured in more notable media, performed for more audiences, and have more in the way of "notability" than this little known man in Boston. I'm certainly not worthy of a Wikipedia entry, and if you and I both can rattle off Bostonians who are better known than Mr. Butch who don't have articles, that should probably say something. --badlydrawnjeff 20:21, 7 November 2005 (UTC)
        • He's not just a homeless person. I don't think that's where most of the defenders of this article are coming from. He's a Kenmore/Allston cultural figure, and the Google hits he -does- get reflect this. Here's a link to a 2002 documentary about him that was included in the Boston Underground Film festival: http://www.postwarmedia.nl/els/qt/clips_butch.html. Here's an article from Boston University's grad school journal, The Comment: http://www.bu.edu/com/comment/archive/2004/kenmoreking.htm. The photographer David Henry includes an 80s picture of him in his online gallery. I know that Google hits form part of the Wikipedia guidelines for significance, but I feel that they are often misleading, particular with underground or subculture phenomenae that is too new to enter the history books, but too old to have been adequately documented on the Internet. Kenmore Square itself is another example. There's not a lot on the net about K.S. in the 70s - early 90s period, but it was a very significant underground cultural center, where bands like The Replacements and The Zulus played in the "Rat" for small, devoted audiences. Anyone who was into that scene knows that Mr. Butch was a notable figure of that period of K.S. whether or not it's much been documented on the Internet. Tyler c gore 04:45, 8 November 2005 (UTC)
• Weak Keep per Bethling, but please let's see if greater verification can be established. Actually let's be honest, I just want to believe that this homeless guy is genuinely remembered by lots of folks. - Just zis Guy, you know? ^[T]/_[C] :: AfD? 22:54, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
• Delete - defines non-notable local phenomenon. Remember the ideal standard... "in 100 years, will anyone remember who this guy is?" FCYTravis 23:29, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
• Delete, every neighborhood has a guy like this. -- Kjkolb 00:02, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
• Comment. This is a pretty good, informative article, of some interest to more than just a small niche community, and the guy's clearly much more noteworthy than just your typical eccentric homeless person. But some more solid evidence may need to be provided of his significance if the article's to stay; it's also troubling that not a single article links to Mr. Butch, not even Kenmore Square. The only way anyone could ever find this page is through the one category it's in (or through the new VfD pages and category that link to it). That's not a good sign. -Silence 00:32, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
• Delete as per nominator. --Agamemnon2 09:20, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
• Very weak keep, but it needs verification by established Bostonian Wikipedians. - Mgm|^(talk) 10:50, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
• Keep It: Mr. Butch is a veritable Boston cultural figure. He has been a fixture in Kenmore Square and Allston since the mid-1980s, and has been particularly well-known to several generations of Boston University students. I went to B.U. in the late 1980s, and remember him well, and have seen articles written about him by more recent generations of Boston students. Although perhaps not quite as flamboyant, he is something like a modern-day Emperor Joshua Norton in Boston culture -- a street figure who has gained a high-degree of cultural significance in local circles. Look, there are articles on Wikipedia on a number of transitory internet trends (e.g. Flying Spaghetti Monster) that will likely have little significance in a few years. Mr. Butch has been a well-known figure in Boston for twenty years. This is not a frivolous entry. People come to Wikipedia for exactly this kind of local cultural information that can not be found elsewhere. Please keep this. In fact, I would like to add more to the article when I get a chance -- I have some pictures of Mr. Butch in the 1980s, somewhere. --Tyler_c_gore 13:56, 5 November 2005 (DST)

(PS -- I'm new to this, so forgive if I've added to this discussion incorrectly -- I used the edit this page box, but somehow I think that was probably the wrong way to do it.)

*Keep it!: I know Butch very well. In fact, I was hanging with him and a neighbor last evening, watching the Patriots / Colts game. He is alive and well and, I'm certain, bemused by all of this attention. He himself would probably be indifferent to whether or not he remains on Wikipedia. But the rest of us in Allston (I have asked people) all want this to remain here. He's part of our collective history far more than any possible reference to pop-fads or one-hit-wonder bands, of which there are numerous at this site. To correct the record: Butch has been well-known around here since the late 1970's. He is a local icon. Further: the statements that there are no links to Mister Butch are incorrect. He has even had a number of short movies made about him, is mentioned in Boston University's Alumni magazine (Bostonia), and is made mention of in many songs and CDs. Wikipedia would be doing us all a vast disservice by failing to retain some mention of him. -- Allstonian 09:42, 8 November 2005

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.