Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Michael Howe (headmaster)

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. --Coredesat 08:01, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Michael Howe (headmaster)

Michael Howe (headmaster) (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) – (View log)

Not notable, These peoples refences are Not independent of the subject. They have not received significant recognised awards or honors. So they don't pass WP:BIO & WP:PROF. ExtraDry 08:34, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

(Note: I have split this from a multiple nomination in Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Douglas Trathen). --Canley 09:52, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

• Keep Howe taught on three continents in the mid-19th century, was Headmaster of one of the most historic schools in Canada and then Headmaster of a GPS School in Australia. At a time when most teachers were lucky to leave their village he looks pretty notable to me. Can somone fill in the blanks and tell us why he left Jarvis? That might make Howe really notable. This one needs considerable work - lets give it a chance. Tallum 09:08, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment Please look at WP:BIO for what is notable. Your more than welcome to copy it over to your userspace and work on it over there. ExtraDry 09:16, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

Comment Please look closely at this call for deletion by ExtraDry - it is difficult to assume good faith with this editor's current record of disruption. Tallum 09:08, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

Please do not make false accusations. ExtraDry 09:16, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

• Note: This debate has been included in the list of Australia-related deletions. -- Bduke 10:01, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
• Delete per WP:PROF. Regardless of anyone's alleged ulterior motives, subject doesn't appear to be notable. Faithlessthewonderboy 10:11, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
• Delete Unless more information is provided, subject falls short of WP:BIO. Running private high schools is not notability, nor is teaching in multiple Commonwealth countries (an endless list). --Dhartung | Talk 11:53, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
• Delete no indication of this headmaster passing notability standards. Hut 8.5 12:01, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
• Note: This debate has been included in the list of Academics and educators-related deletions. —David Eppstein 16:38, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
• Delete No independent coverage of the subject, not major contributions to the enduring historical record...I don't se how this passes the criteria of Wikipedia:Notability (people). Calgary 19:02, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
• Keep This bloke was before his time - live through a scandal in Canada, reinvent yourself in Australia without anybody being any the wiser. Lets beef him up and find the full story. Anyway keeping him does less harm than supporting all these ridiculous calls for deletion. Waterdanks 21:37, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
• Keep. The assertion that there is no independent coverage of the subject may be false. The references appear to point to books published about Newington College. If these are available and give details of his time there, they are independent. They are not written by him or his son or whatever. I also agree with Waterdanks. I would say too that Headmasters are quite often notable, because of there influence on their pupils, the education system and their local community. I do not know whether there is bad faith in this nomination, but it is certainly part of a number of proposals to AfD that have some relationship to Newington College. --Bduke 22:12, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
• Delete unless someone can at least explain how the references are independent and lead to satisfaction of WP:BIO. SamBC 03:37, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
• Delete The position itself is not inherently notable and there is lack of sources attesting to the notability of this person Corpx 04:31, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
• Keep I notice the school he was headmaster of, and I remember the campaign a few weeks ago to remove all the articles for all the distinguished alumni of that school. The nom here attempted to remove all the articles on all the judges, university vice-chancellors, and other extremely notable Australian and Commonwealth people who were associated with the school. (a summary of this is on his talk page & also in the contributions, which link to them all)--all of which were unanimously or almost unanimously kept at AfD. I no longer AGF on any nomination from this editor on any topic connected with this school. as for this article, by general decisions here before, headmasters of really important schools are notable. In this case, there are even books on the history of the school which treat of him. DGG (talk) 05:52, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

Apart from you not WP:AGF do you have anything to add to this Articles for deletion? As please note this is Not a vote. Also of course books about the history of the school which was written by a former staff member which are not independent of the subject as per WP:BIO would mention him. ExtraDry 09:18, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

• Comment I think you will find that DGG does add to this article with the comment: "by general decisions here before, headmasters of really important schools are notable". I have found that Howe was the founding Headmaster of Galt Collegiate Institute and Vocational School and so is now a headmaster of three historically important schools. There are two histories of Newington College listed as references. The first is by David S Macmillan, who was the archivist of the University of Sydney, a notable historian and to the best of my knowledge independent of Newington. The second is by the Rev Dr Peter Swain, who was chaplain at Newington and for many years archivist. He has published two histories of Newington and a biography of Charles Prescott. His biography of Prescott was reworked from his MA thesis for the University of Sydney. As a regular contributor to the Australian Dictionary of Biography he has a solid reputation as an historian and it is nonsense to suggest he isn't independent of of the subject who was a Headmaster of Newington one hundred years before Swain taught there. Tallum 01:09, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

• I strongly disagree with the statement that headmasters like this are inherently notable because of their position. If the position is important enough, then reliable sources will give coverage to the person(s) occupying it. Notability should depend on sources giving significant coverage to this person, not the position. The two independent links in the article (St James Cathedral & Cambridge City HOF) both give one line mentions to this person, which is not "significant coverage" as per WP:N Corpx 03:44, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

• Delete per Corpx. --ForbiddenWord 12:53, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
• Strong Keep Michael Howe is the son of Michael Howe a poor Irish farmer and is given a place at Trinity College as a sizar (i.e. bursary student) and receives in time a bachelors and masters degree before being granted a doctorate. He teaches on three continents in the mid 1800s appears to be at the centre of a sexual scandal in Canada and yet is written about in glowing terms as the headmaster of an elite Sydney school notable, I don't know but interesting yes. After creating the page, others seem to have found out a good deal more than I did and this call for deletion will, I'm sure, lead to more details. Howe should stay. Mitchplusone 11:21, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment See WP:INTERESTING. If you are saying yourself that you are not certain he is notable, but he is certainly interesting, then it's not really a valid weak keep, let alone a strong one. --Dreaded Walrus ^{t c} 11:39, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Comment Okay, I'm saying he is Notable. Mitchplusone 04:48, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
• Keep Notable as an an example of anglican Irish upward mobility in the colonies. I don't know about Howe's influence in the now long established Canadian schools but if the alumni of Newington in the Howe era were added as references to this article you would see that he is notable for those he has educated in Australia. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Castlemate (talk • contribs).

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.