Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Meditation for Spiritual Unfoldment

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was DELETE. -Docg 00:54, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Meditation for Spiritual Unfoldment

Meditation for Spiritual Unfoldment (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) – (View log)

Article about some strange meditation technique. It would appear to have been mentioned in two newspaper articles, but I don't think that constitutes notability. It is also written in some garbled language which bears only the most superficial resemblance to English: 'The principles of the Path that are pillaring, lead to and from the Spiritual Unfoldment meditation are the Unfoldment of the Heart, the finding of Greater happiness, a life of Philosophy that is a living philosophy under a non-denominational / non-sectarian spectrum'. Wikipedia would be a much better place without this article, as well as the article on the non-notable group who promote this activity and the chap who came up with the idea. In essence, this is spam and we don't need it. I think the term is 'walled garden'...isn't it? Rosenkreuz 14:07, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

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  • I would also like to add that FISU's method of teaching meditation for Spiritual Unfoldment are unique in the world. They have taught over 100,000 people in the UK and a similar amount in America plus many thousands more in European countries and Autralia. I totally disagree that Wikipedia would be a better place without this article. I think those comments are even predujuice or make by someone who has not discovered the spiritual path. Our methods of Spiritual Unfolmdent are unique and indivually prescribed for each person that comes to learn. There is no such organsiation in the world with our track record or achievements. W>e plan to post many more article and newspapers write us from over the years to prove our case.— Fisuuk (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
  • Delete. I wasn't impressed at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Gururaj Ananda Yogi. Nothing has changed. Iff we should have an article, we need one and not three or five, otherwise it does seem to be a walled garden. "Foundation for International Spiritual Unfoldment" scores one gnews archive hit, a short advertorial piece in the Evening Standard. "Gururaj Ananda Yogi" scores none. Most mentions of "Spiritual Unfoldment" appear to deal with the unrelated Spiritual Unfoldment Society. No doubt this is a significant part of some people's lives, but it appears not to meet WP:N, and by extension, is not verifiable and could not be written from a neutral point of view. Angus McLellan (Talk) 15:04, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

These articles have been on Wikipedia only for a while. If you guys give us the chance to have some time we can prove you that it will worth it. Are we in war here? Or are we trying the best for a good cause?Damianosk 15:14, 26 January 2007 (UTC)— Damianosk (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

On the other hand...

Greetings. This is regarding the initial comments of the debate, by user Rosenkreuz. I hope this helps to clear up some things.

If you find this meditation technique "strange", then probably you may find all meditations techniques "strange" if you have never practiced meditation.

This is already an existing opinion that consider "all these things from the east" as "strange", especially in the western world. You may share that opinion as well and this is respected. Nevertheless, it's a personal opinion.

If you consider as "garbled language" which bears "only the most superficial resemblance to English" as anything you do not comprehend and share, it is, again, your own right and opinion. Maybe you will consider "garbled language" what it says here? Please note that the translation of eastern texts and notions in English is indeed a "tricky" business. You would be amazed what obscure words and sentences are used by scholars in order to accurately transfer the meaning e.g. from ancient Sanskrit texts to English. As a prominent example of "garbled language", please see the translations of Thomas Cleary on ancient Zen documents - and Thomas Cleary is a recognized leading authority on ancient Zen transcripts.

Unfortunately I will have to disagree with the crude labeling. This "language" that is used in the specific article text was reviewed by native English speakers that share common interest into Meditation for Spiritual Unfoldment and was approved.

About the lacking of media references, there are references regarding this article (and the other related articles), but those I personally have are not properly dated. There was a request for the community to help, as myself and other mates are sorting out the references.

Furthermore, Gururaj Ananda Yogi wasn't the "chap" that "came up with the idea". At least please check Unfoldment. People and movements like Immanuel Kant, Einstein, Buddhism are not just some "chaps that came up with this idea" of Unfoldment.

I am terribly sorry for the misconceptions and the prejudiced language that was used.

Please also note, that in the past there were some ongoing discussions regarding notability etc of these articles and the result yielded for these articles to remain as such. The truth is that the community did not contributed as much as it should, maybe because of the notion that "since the articles were "approved" once, updating is not so urgent". But is seems that we need to update them ASAP, in order to avoid future misunderstandings.

So, expect more updates.

Thank you. Apologizing for any discomfort caused.

MarekTT 15:22, 26 January 2007 (UTC)— MarekTT (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

The English in the article is indeed mangled, but that is no indicator of the conceptual depth of the topic; it is the product of someone who cannot speak the language properly. If the language was, as you say, 'reviewed' by native English speakers, then they are either lying about their home language or not very good at it, because the language truly is very bad indeed. But that's incidental, really, since if the subject matter merited an encyclopaedia article, the language could be fixed. Incidentally, Einstein most certainly did not come up with the idea of 'unfoldment', and nor did Kant. Please don't misrepresent the status of your beliefs. If they are valid, they ought to stand on their own, without spurious references to well-known thinkers. Rosenkreuz 15:31, 26 January 2007 (UTC)


Nope. no lying here. I really have no reason for that, I wouldn't waste my time in lying, I prefer doing things that I believe I enjoy much more than that. In the meantime, a team including myself are trying to be constructive and update the pages in question, in order to clear things up.

About the rest, please read Unfoldment more carefully, because that article as well displays some "spurious references to well-known thinkers". If you do not agree with Unfoldment's "spurious references to well-known thinkers" then you are most welcomed to express it and if you still wish to call me a liar, then please do because it's really not something I consider harmful for me.

I will come back to the discussion in the light of the new content that will be added in the next 24 hours, or if someone wishes to help us out.

So, whoever wants to delete any articles is most welcomed to do it. For two long years we have been fighting with the Charity Commission for England and Wales, having to deal with similar mentalities, but in the end it was a success. And whoever dealt with the Commission knows very well what it takes to be approved as a UK Registered Charity: after exhaustive check, you have to be be proven 100% clear and with rightful purposes in order to be registered. So if you really think that our "chaps" and "garbled language" have actually managed to deceive the Commission (that in effect represents the British Public), then please report us using the Commission's complaints form ("Dissatisfied with our decision?") and tell them that some "chaps" managed to deceive them with their "indeed garbled language".

We will just have to deal with this as well, no matter how long it will take; it's just a matter of time because the determination to set things straight will not deteriorate. In the meantime, why not be amused in here?

All love and Namaste MarekTT 16:46, 26 January 2007 (UTC)— MarekTT (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

I don't appreciate your passive-aggressive stance, MarekTT. The article on 'unfoldment' is an appalling mess, and full of original research. It does indeed mention Einstein, stating that he had an affinity for Buddhism, a dubious fact which needs a citation. The fact is, many people are not really very aware of the intricacies of the philosophical debate between Niels Bohr and Einstein regarding quantum mechanics, but more than a few second-rate popularisations of science, many of which focus on Bohmian mechanics, take comments of Einstein out of all context. I was not accusing you of lying. I merely believe that you are misinformed if you think that Einstein came up with the idea of unfoldment a la David Bohm (in fact, Einstein dismissed Bohm's work as being 'cheap', and for that I can provide a citation).
I have no intention of reporting anyone to any boards or anything. The Commission does not judge any institution on the objective validity of its spiritual practices; it merely makes sure that institutions are not set up to make people money. Being a non-profit entity does not make an organisation, or practice, de facto notable. And what is being discussed here is the notability, not the validity, of spiritual unfoldment. Rosenkreuz 17:40, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

No Rozenkreuz what you discussed is the validity of the spiritual unfoldment(read your very first comments at the top)where you say: "Wikipedia would be a much better place without this article..." and about a chap who came with this idea. I think your comments shows a prejudice on our organisation. If you don't understand what a meditation organization is all about and how it works how can you judge of what we are trying to do here. All your comments shows your confusion about the subject. Damianosk 20:30, 26 January 2007 (UTC)— Damianosk (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

  • Weak delete pending citation of further sources, no claim of notability in the article, questionable whether existing sources are enough to provide verifiability. The first "reference" is from UKPRwire, and is just the group's promotional release, not a reliable source. The second "reference" is the group's own website, also not the kind of source that can establish notability. That leaves the article with just two mentions in a single Cyprus newspaper. Perhaps there are multiple featured coverage in reliable sources, but this article should be kept only if some are found and cited. Before I get accused of hating and being at war, I'm not making any value judgment about the group or its practices; I meditate, especially to avoid getting upset with people who think that their most important function is getting their special interest covered in Wikipedia. Such a priority leads people to suspect that the true goal is promotion, not spiritual improvement. Barno 21:24, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
OK, it's true that we could spare both epithets and passive-aggressive stands. It seems that all speak but none actually listens to each other, so I only have a definite comment to make, at least for now. If we look at the history of the articles in question; when they were first created they were merely stubs, but nevertheless there was some discussion going on on whether they should exist or not. Some were deleted and then revived, tagged, marked for deletion, deleted again, and then revived and so on... At a final phase, the discussions yielded that these articles would remain (no consensus and stuff). Eventually all tags and markings for deletions and notability were all (maybe but one) removed, and the articles were "clean". It seemed then that they would be allowed to exist and gradually be developed in time. Then we come now, after less than a month, with no much initial debate, within less than 24 hours, two articles are marked and deleted (Jasmini Ananda, Rajesh Ananda), and suddenly, when all articles were "clean" and seemed that would just "let be", are marked for deletion, to be merged and so on. At this point, I really do not want to repeat the discussions that took place less than a month ago, because what is said was said, and the turnout was that these articles would remain. So, the twofold ladies and gentlemen, is whether these articles will remain, let some voices heard and be given a chance to grow?- Or delete the articles and silence those opinions expressed in them? I realize that the articles are not (were not) perfect, much more info was yet to be added and the community participation was not as massive as expected, but I think they have potential, they do constitute notability (that yes, has to be proven) and therefore my opinion is to stay, let them be and let them grow. In the case they are deleted, then as community of people interested into this domain we must prepare a proper more "reinforced" articles before we actually upload them and definitely draw the community's attention to it so there is a steady and healthy participation. I am calling off for tonight, have a good one. Cheers, MarekTT 21:33, 26 January 2007 (UTC)— MarekTT (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
  • Delete - Non-notable practice, no secondary sources referenced. Part of a walled garden of articles. Not to mention it reads rather like nonsense. -- Kesh 02:39, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
  • No Deletion Check and check and more changes on the way, on this and the other articles. Damianosk 09:27, 27 January 2007 (UTC)— Damianosk (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
  • Delete - No third party reliable sources to lend justification to claims of notability. Sfacets 14:15, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
  • No deletion. About Meditation for Spiritual Unfoldment, at least 10 meditation societies / organizations from various countries say that they use Meditation for Spiritual Unfoldment based on the teachings of Gururaj Ananda Yogi; most state this in their website, few are needed to be contacted if verification is needed. Note that these organizations do not have any link with FISU. It was known that these organizations existed, but did not consider to mention. On the article Meditation for Spiritual Unfoldment, more book sources were added; it is pending to be inserted as references in the text of the content. About Gururaj Ananda Yogi, he has authored four books and his lectures were extensively recorded. Media interviews can be verified by accessing the archives of the radio, TV stations etc; likewise about symposia and conferences. There is an effort to retrieve more detailed information (dates etc). Finally, regarding FISU, some more content was added, and links to third parties (bbc, med and gov sites were added). I believe all these do constitute notability, or at least if they don't universally convince for their notability, they show good potential for these articles to be further developed in the future (and up to the point where they will universally convince for their notability). It is agreed that they need to be worked out, but bear in mind their recency (< month). I believe they should let be. Cheers, MarekTT 15:39, 27 January 2007 (UTC)— MarekTT (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
  • No deletion.I think the articles constitute a satisfactory degree of notability, because they have sufficient references . I have personally read all the books published by Gururaj Ananda Yogi and I have found them really interesting.I also disagree that the articles should be deleted because Meditation for spiritual unfoldment is practiced by a large number or people. I personally know more than a 100 people practising the techniques of Gururaj Ananda Yogi and noticing tremendus changes in their way of thinking changing their lives for the better.I should say that before you condemn something you should first try it.Spiritualbutterfly 22:17, 27 January 2007 (UTC)— Spiritualbutterfly (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
  • keepMany of the arguments above are irrelevant--the virtues of this method are not at issue. The material is documented and with enough documentation to show that it is notable. I do have some doubts about the individual national societies, which should probably be merged in here. DGG 00:44, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
    • Comment The article now has many citations. When it was originally proposed for deletion, it did not. As it stands, most of the sources are still primary, written by those involved in the practice. What we need are secondary sources about the practice / belief here. -- Kesh 01:07, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep No that's not the case Kesh. In the 'Books and References' section the books 'In Tune with the Infinity', 'Wholeness and the Implicate Order' and 'The Undivided Universe' are secondary sources because their authors don't perform the practice. Especially the last two books approach this philosophy from the scientific point of view. Yet don't forget that the primary sources used here represent thousand of people around the globe. Only FISU (Foundation for International Spiritual Unfoldment) has 60 centres in 9 countries and it continues growing very fast. As for the merging of the individual societies DGG, Meditation for Spiritual Unfoldment is a distinct method of meditation. FISU, as an organization, only utilizes this method. So these notions constitute two distinct issues, therefore it is suggested not to be merged but to be kept as two distinct articles. FISU's article will expand. Damianosk 10:06, 28 January 2007 (UTC)— Damianosk (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
  • strong keep In this debat I wish to contribut with a citation from Gururaj Ananda Yogi:

" Is a meditator foolish or is he a fool? Why meditate? Most people are forever seeking a joy in life, and to seek joy of life one has to be an innocent fool. For in that foolishness brings the very joy that you want. So rather be a foolfilled meditator than a concentrated one. Concentration is a mental quality but a true meditator has heart quality. Would you like your mind to be filled with foolishness or would you like your Heart to be filed with innocence? If the mind is filled with various thoughts, that mind be sure to know, rambles on from thought to thought and ends up in contemplation and not meditation. Contemplation leads to analysis, where one thought battles with the other and this creates conflict. But in meditation one is freed from the conflicts created from the mind. So be a fool! In systematic meditation the very foolishness brings fullness, where you, being a fool, as I am, would learn to enjoy yourself. Get away from the mind. For in getting away you rid yourself of all attachments and cravings, and what you are left with then is the true fool, and only that fool can ever know the meaning of fullness. The fool in his foolishness becomes fulfilled in his innocence." ...Gururaj Ananda Yogi...March 1986. This man started the Foundation and FISU is going on with the work he started.This is NOT a "wallet garden", this is the "proof of the pudding, which lies in the eating"--- eat it and know.(User Jacha 28.01.2007)— Jacha (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

  • keep k... so, please review the ongoing additions and modifications in the articles (here,here and here) and use this as a basis for commenting. I believe now they are much better and are good enough to be kept (still not perfect, but good enough for at least not to be deleted). Cheers. MarekTT 18:29, 28 January 2007 (UTC)— MarekTT (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
    • Not really. All that's been added are more links to "related" societies and primary sources published by practitioners. We need independent sources talking about the practice and/or its organization. -- Kesh 18:48, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
    • Now that is mentioned, it's useful to let know that whereas certain of these organizations are related / loosely related to each other, some others are not related to each other at all (not to say "alienated"). I also stress that these 3 articles (here,here and here) they may have a relation, but by no means they are corporate belongings or trademarks of a sole organization (in this case, FISU's). Each entity (person or organization) can use the teachings of Gururaj Ananda Yogi and Meditation for Spiritual Unfoldment (that btw, it wasn't something created by him), as they please. And they do. In fact, some use it very differently from each other (but that's another story - if members of other organizations found out about this discussion it would go on forever). Anyway, a simple search at Amazon yields these books ([1]) and they are from different authors, different point of views (some their commonality may not go any further from the title) and so on. Also, a more thorough examination of the current references (books, external links, websites etc) can show that they are referred from different sources (organizations, societies, individual authors etc) and also some of them are not related / directly related (solely) to meditation, nor meditation to spiritual unfoldment. Anyway, those books that were found will be used (for content, as references and so on). Please keep comments coming. MarekTT 19:30, 28 January 2007 (UTC)— MarekTT (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

Hi , i saw this and i thought i should drop my thoughts. FISU has helped many people fix their lives with spiritual unfoldment and it would be a shame not be included here for someone that heard about it and thought to search for it in here ! Mpouzouki21 18:53, 28 January 2007 (UTC)— Mpouzouki21 (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

  • Kesh, David Bohm is a scientist (quantum physicist) who tried to approach the practice from the scientific point of view. How can you say he is a practitioner. Bohm and Trine are definitely an independent source. From where do you base your comment? Please support your comment because i don't see any relation to be a primary source.Damianosk 19:17, 28 January 2007 (UTC)— Damianosk (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

No Deletion The mind is a Universe. Meditation can be used as a vehicle to explore and understand it. To go through all the layers and reach the "Source", the "Oneness", the "Wholeness". The source will help to bring stability into the mind, to achieve all that seems impossible... Thousands of people practise this everyday, in a daily basis. Thousands of people want to practise this, but don't know how. From the beginning of the existence of the human race, people have been searching. People will always be searching. People have the right to search for their inner self. Their inner Truth. Give them a chance to find a way do so. Show them the way if they search for it. Adimi 21:31, 28 January 2007 (UTC)— Adimi (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

  •  ??... anw, please review Meditation for Spiritual Unfoldment. The comments posted in this space should be connected with what is written in the articles and giving specific reasons based on that content supporting or not supporting their deletion. Regarding Meditation for Spiritual Unfoldment, I believe now it's OK to be kept. There are a lot of sources, references, books, wikipedia links added of variable relation, but many of them (especially other wikipedia articles) directly relate specifically with the term "Spiritual unfoldment". There was much time devoted for this, so please devote a reasonable amount of time to carefully review the additions before posting comments. MarekTT 22:04, 28 January 2007 (UTC)— MarekTT (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
  • strong keep Substance is of the essence. Beeing aquainted with the methods and teachings of Gururaj Ananda Yogi and the wast library of spiritual teachings as can be found at http://www.fisu.org/acatalog/Gururaj_Ananda_s_Tapes.html it would seem very clear that Gururaj has his given place in any encyclopedia. I can find no qualitative difference between Gururajs writings and talks and those of Vivekananda, Ramakrishna, Rumi and Milarepa whom all are represented and rightly so in the wikipedia. Possible flaws in the language are no argument for deletion (and doesn't bother me personnally being natively Finnish/Swedish). These and and other superficial issues can easily be corrected and should be. The beauty of the wikipedia is it's evolution. Hopfully towards something we would refer to as Truth. Deleting this article would be a big step in the other direction.SantoshMattsson 21:09, 29 January 2007 (UTC)— SantoshMattsson (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
  • Delete. The substantial coverage in reliable third-party sources, as required by WP:N, is too thin. Sandstein 06:55, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete, insufficient notability as per Rosenkreuz's comments. Slac speak up! 07:52, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
  • Weak Keep Article may need some more secondary sources to become a good article, but its a servicable article as it stands. And the sock puppetry is not helping your case guys -Mask 09:22, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

Strong Keep The references and books of the articles are no doubt of a diverse spectrum of knowledge and not from a single source. This subject and knowledge is going on for thousands of years. You now come to say that there is not enough information because you have No Idea about what it is all about? There are so many different organizations practicing meditation for spiritual unfoldment every day. You are trying to say that what they teach for hundreds and hundreds of years, that the people who have experienced and benefited from these techniques, is not important for people who want to know about it? I suggest you guys pay more attention on what you are trying to delete. Adimi 16:24, 30 January 2007 (UTC)— Adimi (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

  • Comment: this is a discussion, not an attack. The expressed point here is clear and everybody can realise it too, without needing the "no-ideas" and the "you-come-heres". If someone sees things differently, it's a matter of opinion. Apparently your's is "Keep", and so does mine. I do agree though that a careful examination proves the articles worthwhile to be kept and with sufficient references. If not everybody sees this in the same manner it is a matter of point of view and on that point of view we are discussing about. cheers... MarekTT 17:31, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete, no assertion of importance (to avoid the n-word). —xyzzyn 19:47, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep, importance is a relative term and differs between individuals. The article is sufficiently sourced and could be of interest to people from a broad audience, who might wish to seek information on spiritual unfoldment from a respected source. Thank you Cosh39 21:47, 30 January 2007 (UTC— Cosh39 (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
  • Delete. 12 Google resultes for some kind of ... new age neologism? Mail order course? I could see this being mentioned in it's parent article, but there is a disproportionate amount of linking and vanity-advert symptomatic crap at the bottom of the article, which is strongly discouraging. Salad Days 22:40, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
  • I disagree. I find the desultoriness of jumping into such conclusions rather disappointing. If the search is performed without the quotes then the results are tens of thousands. Just because there is not an exact matching, (as this diversity was already mentioned), it does not mean that the same / mostly the same thing is not expressed in many other close terms. And in this case, it does. I really find most unnecessary to repeat (but it seems it is needed) about the importance of a thorough examination of ALL books, links, references, websites and whatever else is mentioned in these articles, before jumping and expressing with such a crude way into these kind of incendiary conclusions. So I plea for one more time to those that want to post an opinion: before doing as such please carefully review all the books, references, websites (AND their content), other related wikipedia articles etc that are mentioned in the articles. It is most unfair to spend half a minute for a mere hasty and non deictic Google search where others have spent so much more time and effort into this. People can also understand an argument without the use of the word "crap"; not exactly the most helpful thing. Thank you. MarekTT 01:01, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.