Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Mayor Marolyn Morrison
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was delete. Mostly Rainy 03:52, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Mayor Marolyn Morrison
Politician of little note. Mayor of a small town in greater Toronto. Ghits: [1] --NMChico24 04:07, 15 July 2006 (UTC)
- Delete along with Annette Groves, these people are listed on the city's page, and don't merit their own article yet. Yanksox 04:55, 15 July 2006 (UTC)
- Delete Both as per Yanksox. 219 unique google hits for Marolyn Morrison, 109 unique hits for Annette Groves. Fails WP:BIO. Dionyseus 04:57, 15 July 2006 (UTC)
- Comment There is a second AFD running for Regional Councillor Ward 5 Annette Groves --NMChico24 05:01, 15 July 2006 (UTC)
- Delete. Too short, and more importantly, non-notable. — Ambuj Saxena (talk) 13:18, 15 July 2006 (UTC)
- Speedy delete as non-notable bio, as was Annette Groves. -- NORTH talk 22:28, 15 July 2006 (UTC)
- Delete per above. Mayor of a minor suburb does not meet notability standards. Also, 'Mayor' should not be in the article's title. --DarkAudit 23:54, 15 July 2006 (UTC)
- Keep -- The town in question has 50-60K people, according to the town website. -- Mwalcoff 03:11, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
- How does that make this person notable? --NMChico24 03:37, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
- Any mayor of a town of that size should have lots of stuff written about her in the local papers, allowing us to write an article with independent, verifiable info. -- Mwalcoff 16:00, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
- However, the mayor is not notable enough on his own according to the standards of WP:BIO. Unless he did something on his own that made him independenly notable from the town, then he would merit an article. However, he is not notable, and the proper place is for the town's page. Yanksox 16:03, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
- I disagree. I would recommend that you read the introduction of WP:BIO. It indicates that "notability" is not in and of itself the reason for inclusion of deletion of a subject. Instead, it helps determine whether a subject will meet the Wikipedia policies of verifiability and not including indiscriminate information. For example, Eduard Einstein is probably not notable, but being Albert's son, he meets WP:V, so the article on Eduard survived an AfD. -- Mwalcoff 23:14, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
- WP:BIO is one of my top favorite pages, so I have a decent grasp on it. However, this page is drastically different, and that AfD is really questionable and most likely should be reseructed as most of the people whom thought the article should have been kept have some some not so stable reason to remain. And for pointing to another article, I kindly ask you to read WP:INN. Let's examine this article. "Mayor of the Town of Caledon, Ontario, Canada," that's the article, a one line sentence that is just perfectly fine in the main article. There is no reason for a seperate page for something that alreadly exists near ver batem. Comparing this and Einstein's son is like comparing apples and oranges. E's son has a slim range of notability (I may re-nom it for AfD), while this subject's notability does not exist and is not necessary for a Wikipedia article. Yanksox 00:34, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
- I agree that this is a terrible "article" as it exists. No one should create an article just to create it. That said, it certainly is expandable. I'm sure there are several interesting issues surrounding Caledon -- the province is trying to put most of the town off-limits to development, for example, and the mayor of Mississauga is trying to get rid of Peel Region. Morrison must have opinions on these matters and others. Certainly, the article could be expanded into something worthwhile, perhaps by someone willing to look through the archives of the community newspaper. -- Mwalcoff 02:36, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
- If it can be expanded, please tell me what makes her notable/unique from other mayors/politicians? The things you listed are more of local flavor and notability, there is nothing notable about her outside of her limited scope of notability, which should exist only within the city's article. Yanksox 02:56, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
- It doesn't matter. "Notability" is not, in and of itself, a criterion for deletion. If the information is verifiable and of interest to a significant number of people, it can stay according to current WP policy. -- Mwalcoff 03:46, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
- Notability is and can be a criteon for deletion, it's the main reason why articles about students whom stress notability within their scope of "notability," are deleted. The logic you are proposing is contradicting WP policy itself. If we took everything and didn't have standards for notability (like WP:WEB, WP:MUSIC, and WP:BIO) this site would be bogged down with hundreds upon hundreds of articles not worthy of inculsion. Yanksox 03:49, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
- It should also be noted that, by simply reviewing a number of similar AFDs, it's clear that community consensus is that general notability must be established for an article to survive here. --NMChico24 03:52, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
- WP:BIO disclaims any pretense of being a criterion for deletion. It reads, "This guideline is not Wikipedia policy (and indeed the whole concept of notability is contentious). However, it is the opinion of many Wikipedians that these criteria are a fair test of whether a person has sufficient external notice to ensure that they can be covered from a neutral point of view based on verifiable information from reliable sources, without straying into original research (all of which are formal policies). Failure to meet these criteria does not mean that a subject must not be included, meeting one or more does not mean that a subject must be included." (my bolding) It appears to me that "notability" is a tool used to assess whether an article can meet criteria for inclusion (WP:V, WP:NOR, WP:NOT, etc.) and is not a criterion in and of itself. -- Mwalcoff 03:59, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
- Then you miss the point of my argument. --NMChico24 04:02, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
- It should also be noted that, by simply reviewing a number of similar AFDs, it's clear that community consensus is that general notability must be established for an article to survive here. --NMChico24 03:52, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
- If it can be expanded, please tell me what makes her notable/unique from other mayors/politicians? The things you listed are more of local flavor and notability, there is nothing notable about her outside of her limited scope of notability, which should exist only within the city's article. Yanksox 02:56, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
- I agree that this is a terrible "article" as it exists. No one should create an article just to create it. That said, it certainly is expandable. I'm sure there are several interesting issues surrounding Caledon -- the province is trying to put most of the town off-limits to development, for example, and the mayor of Mississauga is trying to get rid of Peel Region. Morrison must have opinions on these matters and others. Certainly, the article could be expanded into something worthwhile, perhaps by someone willing to look through the archives of the community newspaper. -- Mwalcoff 02:36, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
- WP:BIO is one of my top favorite pages, so I have a decent grasp on it. However, this page is drastically different, and that AfD is really questionable and most likely should be reseructed as most of the people whom thought the article should have been kept have some some not so stable reason to remain. And for pointing to another article, I kindly ask you to read WP:INN. Let's examine this article. "Mayor of the Town of Caledon, Ontario, Canada," that's the article, a one line sentence that is just perfectly fine in the main article. There is no reason for a seperate page for something that alreadly exists near ver batem. Comparing this and Einstein's son is like comparing apples and oranges. E's son has a slim range of notability (I may re-nom it for AfD), while this subject's notability does not exist and is not necessary for a Wikipedia article. Yanksox 00:34, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
- I disagree. I would recommend that you read the introduction of WP:BIO. It indicates that "notability" is not in and of itself the reason for inclusion of deletion of a subject. Instead, it helps determine whether a subject will meet the Wikipedia policies of verifiability and not including indiscriminate information. For example, Eduard Einstein is probably not notable, but being Albert's son, he meets WP:V, so the article on Eduard survived an AfD. -- Mwalcoff 23:14, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
- However, the mayor is not notable enough on his own according to the standards of WP:BIO. Unless he did something on his own that made him independenly notable from the town, then he would merit an article. However, he is not notable, and the proper place is for the town's page. Yanksox 16:03, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
- Any mayor of a town of that size should have lots of stuff written about her in the local papers, allowing us to write an article with independent, verifiable info. -- Mwalcoff 16:00, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
- How does that make this person notable? --NMChico24 03:37, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
Ok, let's put it like this: whom aside from the people in the town care about her? What has she done outside the town that has made her noted by "outsiders," has she done anything within the town to make her notable? I am serious when I purpose this, it's a serious issue that needs to be approached. What exactly gives her reason for the article to remain? Yanksox 04:06, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
- First, I think that enough people within the town of 50-60K alone would be interested to make the article something more than "indiscriminate information." I think that her views on the Ontario Greenbelt and the shape of Peel Region might make her of interest to some of the 5.3 million people of the Greater Toronto Area. I don't know enough about her to say what she has or hasn't done. From quick Internet searches, it seems Morrison is not nearly as outspoken as some mayors, but any mayor of a town of 50,000 will have to have made some significant deicisions. The article should stay because, while it is crap now, it theoretically could become full-length without violating policies like WP:V, WP:NOR and WP:NOT. -- Mwalcoff 04:19, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
- 50-60K isn't that big of a community, my city has 98K and our former mayor who was noted in papers like the Boston Globe has borderline notability. The issue is: "If she is so outspoken has she gained any coverage for this?" The answer from what I can tell is: no. There are alot of outspoken people out there, but that doesn't make them worthy of being put up here. Yanksox 04:25, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
- Now we're at the crux of the problem. I think a mayor of a town of 50K is "notable" and you don't. (I grew up in a city of 15K, so 50K seems big to me.) Who's right? There's no way to know. That's why "notability," in and of itself, cannot be the criterion to decide whether a subject should have an article. It can only help us determine whether the article meets other criteria, most importantly whether there's enough independent, verifiable info out there about her. My feeling is the answer to that question is yes -- a search on /+Morrison +Caledon/ in the Toronto Star archives finds 69 hits. I'm sure the Orangeville Citizen, Brampton Guardian and Caledon Enterprise also have had lots to say about her. -- Mwalcoff 04:35, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
- I don't think the issue is really the notability of the town/city/community itself, it really has to do with outside sources. A mayor is obviously going to garner alot of coverage from a local city/town and state/province, I think politicians since they will gain automatic coverage from local sources should be held to somekind of national coverage. I know it sounds shaky, but I am tired. Yanksox 04:41, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
- Now we're at the crux of the problem. I think a mayor of a town of 50K is "notable" and you don't. (I grew up in a city of 15K, so 50K seems big to me.) Who's right? There's no way to know. That's why "notability," in and of itself, cannot be the criterion to decide whether a subject should have an article. It can only help us determine whether the article meets other criteria, most importantly whether there's enough independent, verifiable info out there about her. My feeling is the answer to that question is yes -- a search on /+Morrison +Caledon/ in the Toronto Star archives finds 69 hits. I'm sure the Orangeville Citizen, Brampton Guardian and Caledon Enterprise also have had lots to say about her. -- Mwalcoff 04:35, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
- 50-60K isn't that big of a community, my city has 98K and our former mayor who was noted in papers like the Boston Globe has borderline notability. The issue is: "If she is so outspoken has she gained any coverage for this?" The answer from what I can tell is: no. There are alot of outspoken people out there, but that doesn't make them worthy of being put up here. Yanksox 04:25, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
- D&Redirect to the city. Local officials require an additional claim to fame in all cases. This is a substub. - CrazyRussian talk/email 01:29, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
- Delete per nom. Davidpdx 00:26, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
