Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Matthew Halischuk
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- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was Delete JERRY talk contribs 01:58, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Matthew Halischuk
Non-notable junior player who has yet to play in a professional game. JD554 (talk) 11:24, 7 January 2008 (UTC)
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of Hockey-related deletion discussions. -- the wub "?!" 11:44, 7 January 2008 (UTC)
- Keep - While I agree that every junior player does not merit inclusion, I contest that statement that he is not notable. Being a member of the Canada U-20 team alone is a strong stance (I believe might merit inclusion alone) that places the player in the upper tier of Canadian junior players. In addition, his performance in the tournament should merit the article (overtime, game winning goal). As shown through Paul Henderson in the Summit Series, a single goal in international competition can propel a legacy. While in no way is what Halischuck did near the importance of Henderson, I do think it highlights how the single event can reach the notability level necessary for an article such as this one. A view of the 2008 IIHF World U20 Championship article shows a number of players that have articles that have never played professionally, yet their junior/college careers (e.g., playing, draft position, international, and the like) are enough to merit inclusion. I do think that the goal, with the relatively high draft position (i.e., not a random player who scored, but one with somewhat of a career) show enough merit. I am the article creator and therefore am considered to have a vested interest. RonSigPi (talk) 04:16, 8 January 2008 (UTC)
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Being selected to play for the Under-20 team doesn't mean he will play or do anything notable in the future — Wikipedia is not a crystal ball--JD554 (talk) 07:54, 8 January 2008 (UTC)- Change to Keep: Sorry, not noticed he had played. I agree then he meets the criteria of WP:BIO assuming the U-20 Worlds is the highest amateur level and I'm inclined to believe it is. --JD554 (talk) 08:24, 8 January 2008 (UTC)
- If you actually look at the players on that page that do have pages, they have either played professionally (which is the case for almost every player on that page that isn't Canadian). Or they have been drafted in the first round of the NHL draft or in the case of Tavres and Stamkos, are highly talked about draft prospects. -Djsasso (talk) 16:12, 8 January 2008 (UTC)
- Strong keep, as he scored the game winning goal at the 2008 World Junior Ice Hockey Championships. − Twas Now ( talk • contribs • e-mail ) 14:32, 8 January 2008 (UTC)
Weak keepDelete World Juniors is not the top amateur competition. The Olympics or World Championships would be. Lots of people have played for the World Juniors who will never have a page on wikipedia. And notability is not temporary so the temporary notability he has for scoring this goal is not likely to last. Does anyone remember the last guy to win the World Juniors in overtime. I don't think so. Personally I think he should go until he plays a game professionally and therefore meets WP:BIO. As to RonSigPi why they have articles, is that they were drafted in the 1st round which is one of the criteria we (WP:HOCKEY) have for allowing junior players to stay. -Djsasso (talk) 15:16, 8 January 2008 (UTC)
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- The Olympics and World Championships now allow professionals (they have for about 15 years now). It is hard to say absolutely that the U20 are amateur, since 18 and 19 year olds under professional contracts can play - but many who do play professionally do not get approval from their club to play (at least in North American leagues); so in a way it is for amateur players. That being said, the U20 championship is a major contest for 'junior' players. -RonSigPi (talk) 23:01, 8 January 2008 (UTC)
- I am in no way saying its not major. Being in Canada I think its bigger than the World Championships, however, Europeans would say the opposite as the World Juniors are an also ran in Europe. That being said anytime you restrict something by age you are in effect showing that it is not be top level because you are cutting out older people who would often (though not always) have better skills than their younger counter parts. Especially when you consider the fact that all of these junior players are elligable to play in the World Championships as well. And as you mentioned yourself a relatively large number of players in the junior championships are also professionals as most of the European players often have played a few games professionally since hockey levels are set up differently in Europe. So the fact that the Olympics and World Championships now allow pros to play is not a differentiating factor because just as many pros play in the Junior championships, just not for Canada and the United States. -Djsasso (talk) 23:08, 8 January 2008 (UTC)
- I agree with what you are saying. I know what I said hurts my stance, but I would rather be accurate then right. My point was to clear up when JD554 said U20s were the top amateur competition, since technically it is not amateur. I think this is a bit of a degression from the topic (i.e., if this article should stand), but thought that should be cleared for anyone who wants to add in. -RonSigPi (talk) 23:40, 8 January 2008 (UTC)
- I am in no way saying its not major. Being in Canada I think its bigger than the World Championships, however, Europeans would say the opposite as the World Juniors are an also ran in Europe. That being said anytime you restrict something by age you are in effect showing that it is not be top level because you are cutting out older people who would often (though not always) have better skills than their younger counter parts. Especially when you consider the fact that all of these junior players are elligable to play in the World Championships as well. And as you mentioned yourself a relatively large number of players in the junior championships are also professionals as most of the European players often have played a few games professionally since hockey levels are set up differently in Europe. So the fact that the Olympics and World Championships now allow pros to play is not a differentiating factor because just as many pros play in the Junior championships, just not for Canada and the United States. -Djsasso (talk) 23:08, 8 January 2008 (UTC)
- The Olympics and World Championships now allow professionals (they have for about 15 years now). It is hard to say absolutely that the U20 are amateur, since 18 and 19 year olds under professional contracts can play - but many who do play professionally do not get approval from their club to play (at least in North American leagues); so in a way it is for amateur players. That being said, the U20 championship is a major contest for 'junior' players. -RonSigPi (talk) 23:01, 8 January 2008 (UTC)
- Delete I know what Halischuk did, but feel that isn't enough. WP:HOCKEY set out guidlines, and we shouldn't make an exception here, or anywhere, as it sets dangerous precident. If we let Halischuk in, then it means any junior/non-notable player who does something should be considered, and suddenly the entire guidlines are just a waste of time. It also seems to be a case of WP:RECENTISM. Seriously, does anyone here know who scored the winning goal in the 2007 tournament, or any tournament? (Not a serious question, rather a redundant statement). As well, just looking at his stats, he was a 4th round pick; While that can mean whatever one wants it to, I think it shows that the NHL hasn't thought of him enough to make him a top-draft choice, with less odds to have a pro career, though again that isn't always true. Kaiser matias (talk) 06:20, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
- Delete. Has yet to win a major award in juniors and wasn't a first round pick in the NHL draft. Once/if he plays some pro hockey or he wins a major award, the article can be recreated. Patken4 (talk) 22:10, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
- Delete for the same reasons behind the deletion of the Stefan Legein article. Andy Saunders (talk) 23:34, 12 January 2008 (UTC)
- Comment it would be more beneficial to bring up your concerns as to the notability or non-notability of a player other than just saying Stefan Legein is your reason as some editors who are participating in this discussioon may not know the circumstances behind that player's page being deleted. --Pparazorback (talk) 06:45, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
- Delete per commentary by Kaiser matias and Djsasso above. --Pparazorback (talk) 06:45, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
- Keep since he scored the game winning goal for the gold medal in the U20 championships. -RiverHockey (talk) 18:31, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
