Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Massacres in Peloponnese

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. - Mailer Diablo 11:26, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Massacres in Peloponnese

Massacres in Peloponnese (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) – (View log)

This article is a POV fork of Greek War of Independence. It is poorly written, blatantly POV and unencyclopedic. It is also in many parts a very thinly paraphrased version of an article that was previously speedy-deleted as a piece of plagiarism / copyvio (see User talk:Laertes d#Massacres in Peloponnese and Wikipedia:Deletion review/Log/2007 May 2 for discussion. The new version is superficially modified in its wording, but its substance is apparently still just a agglommeration of snippets taken more or less directly from the literature. I wouldn't mind a properly written article on massacres during the Greek War of Independence, written in decent encyclopedic style and integrated into the main article through proper use of the main/summary refactoring technique, but this article isn't it. Fut.Perf. ☼ 21:02, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

Note: this is a procedural completion of an unlisted AfD proposal by User:Politis, but the above rationale is my own. Fut.Perf. ☼ 21:02, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

References for the article are quite clearly stated and even scanned for the same people who are now asking for the deletion of it. Speedy delete itself was a mistake and now i rewrote the article directly from first hand sources without any intermediaries and by citing them. i guess i also have to mention that article was undeleted by some other people who apparently didnt see much problem with it..

Article mainly based on these sources,

George Finlay, History of the Greek Revolution and the Reign of King Otho, edited by H. F. Tozer, Clarendon Press, Oxford, 1877 Reprint london 1971 SBN 900834 12 9

Image:Finlaydd.jpg

W. Alison Phillips, The War of Greek independence 1821 to 1833, London 1897 and

Image:Phillipsaa.jpg

William St. Clair, That Greece Might Still Be Free The Philhellenes in the War of Independence, Oxford University Press London 1972 p.2 ISBN 0192151940.

Image:St.clair12.jpg

For most of the citations that i used in the article, i scanned pages. Actually, i didnt include the horrfying descriptions of the atrocities that were performed, as can be seen from the scanned pages, but merely talked about their occurings. These are not some "extreme theories" of some nationalist sites as has been claimed, but the events that virtually every single historian mentions about. I can understand criticizations of it then i will welcome them to improve the article but i cant see why an article about well known series of massacres that every single historian talks about should be deleted..--laertes d 22:43, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

  • Keep as the topic seems referenced and encyclopedic. The article needs wikification and cleanup to an encyclopedic appearance, and will likely never be free of POV wars, but does not seem incapable of management. Sourcing could be broader; attention to the context of massacres vs. displacement could be greater; but there are many worse articles on Wikipedia. --Dhartung | Talk 07:28, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete per above. ·ΚέκρωΨ· 09:34, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment. On second thought, I do see a chance of reworking this into a decent article; I'm currently preparing a draft. If kept, the page must be renamed, because it doesn't actually deal specifically with the Peloponnese but also with other areas in Greece. I invite suggestions for better titles. Actually, I could imagine an article Massacres during the Greek War of Independence merging information about both the anti-Muslim and the anti-Christian atrocities (e.g. Massacre of Chios etc.) Fut.Perf. ☼ 10:12, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
    • Strike that out. We already have the section Greek War of Independence#Massacres during the revolution, which provides everything we need. That section can be improved in terms of NPOV and encyclopedicity (we don't need all those glaring sensational literal quotes, for instance). This article is just a POV fork of that section. Point about renaming if kept still stands. Fut.Perf. ☼ 10:31, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete This article as it is, is a POV fork of the massacres section of Greek War of Independence. After a lot of edit warring, Laertes couldn't get his own way there so he created the fork. Plagiarism is also an issue with this. However, I have always supported {{main}}ing out that section from the independence war article and including both sides of the story (i.e. massacres by Turks on Greeks and Greeks on Turks, not merely one or the other). If we are going to keep this article, then an article Massacres of Greeks by Turks during the Greek War of Independence should be created to balance things out. Alternatively, I support Fut.Perf.'s proposal of creating an article Massacres during the Greek War of Independence and moving all the material there.--Ploutarchos 10:42, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

I think the article shouldnt be deleted or merged with something else, just because some users dont want well known massacres to be seen. The massacre section in the main article of Greek war of independence is nothing but a mess now, and subject to continuous vandalism. And thats why in the first place, i decided to open a new thread. Instead of incorporating it with something else an internal link can be provided in the main article for the massacres that took place in Peloponnese with the beginning of the revolt. Future's proposal is a futile one, it is a proven fact that merging them into one proves to be useless. And there already is a separate article about Chios massacre. And "those glaring sensational quotes" are coming from the works of historians and in fact, i refrained from putting detailed descriptions of atrocities performed. For instance George Finlay talks about the massacres in Navarino, in the scanned page, in more than one page. In the article, i mentioned about it only by one short sentence. there are many more things that i didnt mention about the massacres. And there is nothing wrong with incorporating quotations from other works...As i said, i would be happy if someone comes and develop the article if it it is thought to be POV.--laertes d 11:04, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

And merging into one creates another problem, as can be seen in the main page, that ends up being a contest of who massacred worst, who killed most and turns out to be nothing but a mess..im sure Greeks had their sound reasons of rebelling to the Ottoman Empire but Greek rebels massacred minority populations of Greece(Turks, albanians, jews) to the point of extermination almost before Ottoman Empire realized there was a serious uprising in their hands..BTW, many things mentioned in the main page is factually incorrect and taken from unreliable or unverifiable sources as i talked in the discussion page of that article and nobody gave an answer yet. --laertes d 11:14, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

At least you admit your article is a POV fork. NikoSilver 11:43, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

All sources are cited and are quite reliable, feel free to make proposals of changes or include materials in the article but asking for its wiping out is clearly itself a national POV..--laertes d 11:47, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

The proposal has already been made. Delete this one, and write whatever salvageable (too few IMO) in a place where both POVs (NPOV) can be elaborated on, such as the existing section Greek War of Independence#Massacres during the revolution. NikoSilver 11:58, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

And i already said that article is a mess, massacre section probably soon would be larger than the rest of the article if i enter in this edit warring of who massacred worst..Instead, an internal link can be provided from the main article by just shortly mentioning of the massacres in there. There has been already a separate article of massacre of chios, somehow i couldnt see a request of merging things into one another in there..--laertes d 12:13, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

Again, you admit it is a POV fork... You also admit WP:POINT (i.e. if another "fork" exists, then instead of discussing its deletion we should create this one). Nevertheless, I can't even remotely understand the notability connection between the Chios massacre and greekmurderers.net... NikoSilver 12:33, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

I understand meanwhile why you didnt understand it because there is no such a connection, article has no relation with the site you keep showing for the last couple of days, citations are taken directly form above mentioned sources..Mostly from the scanned pages..--laertes d 12:42, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

For the last time: 1) you cannot compare something as notable as the Chios massacre (sources: scholar, books) to something without devoted literature (and art), apart from pages here and there 2) even if you could, that would not be a reason for creating another article, and 3) when there are two sides in a coin, then you cannot split the one you like to a separate article. NikoSilver 13:03, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

Massacres in Peloponnese are quite notable, as you can see that every historian mentions about that..these are not pages from here and there, if you want i can scan a large quatities of pages more..--laertes d 13:07, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

Again, you only address #1 (for which you can address neither scholar nor books). I see that you repeatedly avoid to discuss #2 (WP:POINT) and #3 (WP:UNDUE/WP:POVFORK). Conclusions drawn, thank you. NikoSilver 13:14, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
Just for the record, I do agree that the massacres are real and notable, and the literature on the topic is genuine and serious for all I can see. Okay, McCarthy is certainly controversial, but I see nothing suspicious about St. Clair, who seems to be a well-respected expert in Greek 19th-century history ([1]), and about Barbara Jelavich, author of a much-quoted History of the Balkans. The article should make a clearer distinction between these modern works of scholarship and the older, 19th-century sources (Finlay and Alison Phillips). Fut.Perf. ☼ 13:16, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

What now youre saying Fut.Perf, is kind of things that can easily be discussed in the discussion page of the article, not in its deletion request page..Although i dont necessarily agree with your opinions. they were respected historians of their time and what they wrote were the earliest accounts about the greek war of independence--laertes d 14:33, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

  • Delete. I agree with NikoSilver; this is a POV fork. Whatever we can salvage from this article belongs in a section such as Greek War of Independence#Massacres during the revolution and needs to be written in an NPOV way. And yeah, Fut. Perf. is right--we need to distinguish between contemporary scholarship and 19th century sources, and rely on the recent stuff. --Akhilleus (talk) 16:01, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete per above. A fork and not a significant event. The Myotis 16:35, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete, a WP:POVFORK--Aldux 16:37, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

Above comments are just ridiculous, "not a significant even", sure, by that criteria lets delete more than half of wikipedia..the entire minority population of Peloponnese is wiped out. The massacre section of Greek war of independence is anything but not a NPOV. It is not up to the Greek nationalists to decide whether it should be deleted or not, i still cant see one single reasanable response from the people who are asking for its deletion..--laertes d 17:17, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

  • Delete. POV fork. Consensus for including any of this material can be sought at the place it belongs. Sandstein 19:09, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete - This article should be part of the Greek War of Independence. When I was in high school these events were mentioned in the class on the War of independence. Also, these events were the result of individual or group acts of violence, and not deliberetly planned by a central Greek authority/entity, as there was no such thing as a Greek government yet. Unfortunately, they were a consequence of over 400 years of brutal occupation. --Rizos01 19:41, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

I think i previously replied to these criticizations about its being a POVfork, the reason of opening a separate article is that the massacre section in the main article turned out to be a place of contest about who massacred worst and most..Most of the events mentioned there is poorly sourced, delibaretly added to downplay the massacres of Peloponnese and apologeletic to say the least, like because of the hanging of the patriarch that Greeks massacred turks which is incorrect since there were hardly any Turk left until the hanging or Jews were massacred "accidentally" as a side effect whereas St. Clair says that priests and bishops gave direct orders for their exterminations..

And even more funnier of all, i still cant see these same people opposing to a separete article of Chios massacre which took place after the minority population of Peloponnese wiped out..

Sorry i made a mistake, what is most funny is a user above asked for "consensus" of opinion even the inclusion of well sourced material into the main article, then if not every single of the users approve materials shouldnt be added..I guess that would be the end of Wikipedia..And please no need to naturalize brutal massacres of civilian population who inhabited the region over centuries as a natural outcome of something else..Still cant see any reasonable comment about why it should be deleted other than "lets cover up" fellows..--laertes d 21:02, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

  • If you think the section is a poorly sourced who massacred more contest than fix it. Having a separate article won't solve any of the edit warring or POV of the people involved. Downplaying is a good thing. The article is not the place to blame either side. Your comments suggest you have serious problems with Greek people. Your using words like: apologetic, "accidentally" and "let's cover up" show me you're far from neutral. Try getting some input on how to handle the section in the existing article from people who have no opinion on the matter. - Mgm|(talk) 10:48, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

Sorry but these are really quite cheap accusations, i dont have any problem with any people as a group identity and as i said im sure Greeks at the time had their sound reasons to rebel but it is no justification for brutally eliminating entire minority population of Peloponnese. I would rather say you and others who oppose a separate article have serious problems about acknowldeging the massacres committed by Greeks or may be by Christians..Point here, population of Peloponnese was virtually wiped out before any other massacre that can be named to be committed by Ottoman Empire. Thats not a point of debate, every historian mentions about that and therefore it deserves a separete article of its own. For any criticizations of the article itself, i encourage you to come and fix it or anyone else..--laertes d 11:31, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

  • Delete per above - Sthenel 13:42, 5 May 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete. Per nominator.--Yannismarou 17:32, 5 May 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete for the obvious reasons. Miskin 22:17, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

i think this is a discussion page,right? Not a kind of nationalist greeks' solidarity platform, or some christian's solidarity platform, assumingly people are supposed to say why they think the article should be deleted, i quite clearly stated my reasons for a separate article, i expect the same therefore..i cant see much a discussion other than "delete per above", "POvfork". Massacres are real and beginning by the earliest accounts of the greek war of independence virtually every historian mentioned about that, and these are from where i get the citations--laertes d 18:11, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

In fairness, if I were to judge this AfD I'd discount the vote by Rizos01, who came back out of a weeks-long inactivity just for this one vote and who is otherwise a single-purpose POV pushing account on Pontic Greek genocide. That one does smack of vote-stacking. The rest are all legitimate - it's only natural that this topic will draw most interest from Greek readers. But things will be judged by strength of arguments, not by force of numbers. Fut.Perf. ☼ 19:53, 5 May 2007 (UTC)


  • Delete My main problem is that the title is way too vague. If any article with this title exists, it should be a redirect to numerous sub-articles as there have been many massacres in the Peleponnese from antiquity to the Greek Civil War. AlexiusComnenus 22:17, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

Alexius, i dont think these little games would be of any value, then heading can renamed as "Turkish Massacres in Peloponnese" or something in the kind..--laertes d 00:25, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

" then heading can renamed as "Turkish Massacres in Peloponnese" or something in the kind" This is what I am arguing for! I am glad that you agree, but I think that the name you mentioned it not a good one. We should have articles for specific events, such as "Tripoli Massacre" etc. when there is a lot of information about a specific massacre. In other cases, where we no little else other than people were killed, the events should just be mentioned in passing in the article on the Greek War of Independence. AlexiusComnenus 01:23, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.