Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Martial Arts Therapy

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was KEEP (no consensus). Nabla 01:11, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Martial Arts Therapy

Martial Arts Therapy (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) – (View log)

This article reads like OR, lacks references, and even has a photoshopped picture of a ninja freud. RogueNinja_talk 22:19, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

There are 4 scientific references in the article, and 7 references to scientific publications at the end that are part of the information in the article. I'm not sure what you mean by lacks references, or for that matter, "original research," since all the issues brought up in the article are derived from said scientific publications. --Scb steve 02:06, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

• Comment It has a bunch of external links, not references. Some of the links are dead, some are on random webhosts (ie, not good references), some are password protected, and some show that the article is counter-factual! (Ie, the link 5 says: "The total pattern of results strongly suggests that participation in power sports actually leads to an increase or enhancement of antisocial involvement in the form of elevated levels of violent as well as non-violent antisocial behaviour outside sports." Link 4 says the same thing. One of these references is another wiki article! RogueNinja_talk 02:19, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

Do you realize that "power sports" and martial arts are different? And that the possibility of learning martial arts may increase antisocial behavior is addressed in the article? Namely, the section referring to Bandura's social learning theory. Regarding the links, one was to a site that had published material by a Ph.D level university professor, one was previously accessible without password protection, and the remainder are PubMed abstracts of peer-reviewed articles. Further, you can clearly see references in the citations, such as (Endresen and Olweus, 2005), (Gleser, 1992), etc. --Scb steve 03:46, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

• Keep Article clearly needs work, but we should let it survive for now, keep an eye on it, attempt to improve it, and then nominate it again in say 3 months, if it proves impossible to improve. None of the nom's arguments lead me to conclude that this article can not be improved to the point of being worthy of staying. Jerry 22:18, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

 Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so that consensus may be reached
 Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, If you have any questions, please contact me at my talk page. Ian Manka 05:48, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

• delete WP:OR by synthesis. There are references cited in the article, but none of which support the external existence of article's topic, Martial Arts Therapy as a subject recognized as a field unto itself by that name. The material in this article which is supported by reliable sources more properly belongs in the articles on the specific martial arts involved. I've also nominated the image of Freud's head photoshopped onto Bruce Lee's body for deletion, it's beyond silly. Nowhere in this article does the therapeutic benefits of martial arts go anywhere near Freudian psychodynamics. It just makes the whole article, and therefore the encyclopdeia, look juvenile. Pete.Hurd 15:01, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
• Strong Keep, because many use martial arts as a mean of therapy and therefore just improve it. --Wikipedian, Historian, and Friend? 16:44, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

  Wikipedian, Historian, and Friend? (talk · contribs) just opined "strong keep" in 27 AFD discussions over a period of 35 minutes, several times with clearly disruptive rationales. Uncle G 16:58, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

• Strong Keep I use martial arts as a therapy of sorts. Click on bio to find out more. TonyTheTiger (talk/cont/bio) 22:00, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

I don't think WP:ILIKEIT is grounds for "strong keep" Pete.Hurd 14:22, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

• Delete As with many proprietary techniques, there are references dealing with the general subject, for the connection between exercise and mood is well-known. Of the refs given at the end of the article, 2 are dead links, 1 is a locally-restricted study--the only source given for POMS-- 1 is a personal web site, 1 was a self-ref to a WP article (now removed), and 4 were truly articles in peer-reviewed journals. At least 2 of the 4 said explicitly in the abstracts they were about traditional Judo, which is not the topic here.

I conclude that the term is not well-established, that it is a common phrase being used in a special meaning by a specific group of practitioners, and that it is self-advertisingin the guide of an article DGG 02:46, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

• Delete per Pete.Hurd. --Dariusk 19:14, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
• Keep Due to criticisms concerning references, revisions have been made, such as the inclusion of links to two full-length, peer-reviewed articles that used non-judo methods to treat juvenile delinquents. I haven't been able to find as good of a summary of the POMS as before, but any quick look will show it's a validated and widely used measure in psychological studies. I have also fixed the link to the UConn source, as that link has changed, and it is in working order now.

There are very specific reasons why martial arts stands distinct from other fitness methods or for other sports in terms of promoting psychosocial health, as explained in this article and at the references. Talking about the specific martial arts and their benefits on their own page is inappropriate since it gets into a tangentially related aspect of those arts, whereas this page focuses on potential benefits inherent to all arts. In fact, the issue of whether some arts are non-therapeutic is a notable controversy addressed here in this article, and would be lost if forced to be put into separate style pages. --Scb steve 01:22, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

Article still primarily an advertisement for the site Martial Arts Therapy.org which is a site advertising particular programs--even though the article is disguised and includes no external links, it uses the wording: "Martial Arts Therapy (hereafter referred to as MA-Therapy)" this is wording as a particular style of using martial arts, as is "MA-Therapy is a concept still in development. " but the references cited directly and through the bibliography listed in almost all the sources are talking about it in general, and use a variety of wordings for the concept. There is no consistent use of the title in the articles cited and listed or anywhere else. . The wording here is specific to this particular school of thought. Most of the article still is OR as the unique summarization of loosely related studies or as totally unsupported OR. If kept I will suggest a title change. DGG 18:00, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

You have no basis to say that this is an advertisement for that site, especially since 1. I have no links to that site while being the article-starter, and 2. That site isn't even mentioned in the article itself. The usage of the term "martial arts therapy" is a codification of the concept "using martial arts to treat physical/psychological disorders," no different than "using horses to treat physical/psychological disorders" is called equine therapy. --Scb steve 22:10, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.