Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Manalapan-Englishtown Middle School
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- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was keep. Can't sleep, clown will eat me 19:51, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Manalapan-Englishtown Middle School
Non notable: just another middle school, nothing remarkable or interesting Fram 20:08, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
- Keep. Verifiable. --Ginkgo100 talk ยท e@ 20:57, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
- Weak Keep Has a modicum of notability, beyond the norm. --RMHED 21:20, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
- To both Fram and RMHED: Please explain what notability criteria (e.g. WP:SCHOOL) you are using and how the subject satisfies/fails to satisfy them. A bare "notable"/"non-notable" assertion is meaningless. Also bear in mind, if you are about to say "It seems that way to me." that Notability is not subjective. Uncle G 00:31, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
- Reply: Fair question. From your page: "The primary criterion for notability, that applies in all fields, is that an article's subject is notable if it has been the subject of non-trivial published works by multiple separate sources that are independent of that subject itself." I'm looking for them, but the article doesn't list any, and Google is of no help either (lots of hits for the school, which obviously exists, but nothing that fits your primary definition of a non-trivial published work. I have e.g. this NY times article[1], but it mentions nothing special about the Middle School (it confirms existence, of course). The more regional Asbury Park Press[2] thinks the schools are excellent (bravo!), but again makes no mention of what makes this school so distinct from other schools that it becomes notable. If someone can convince me by finding other sources that do establish notability, great: for now, it fails the norm. If you want this expressed in a policy: the claims which make the school different and thus notable (if you are not of the opinion, like some people are, that all schools are per se notable) are not verifiable in the sense of WP:V, until some of the editors of the article or some of the people that vote keep canproivde those references. To me, it all looks like some fancy names to give the impression of some unique concept, but basically it is a school like there are thousands of others. Fram 07:53, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
- Thank you for citing sources. I hope that we can continue to push the schools debate towards finding, reading, and citing sources, and away from the "stuck record" arguments and subjective evaluations of notability. Looking at the NYT source, it appears that there is enough information there to source an article on the whole
Manalapan-Englishtown Regional Schools school districtManalapan-Englishtown Regional School District, even if there isn't the source material for more than a sentence on this 1 individual school. The same goes for the Asbury Park Press article, which discusses all of the schools as a group. So, given the sources that we have, which only discuss the school district as a whole, and the fact that the web site hyperlinked to by the article is in fact the school district's web site, would not a rename/merger into the school district be the most appropriate course of action, in order to have the encyclopaedia reflect the sources? Uncle G 18:02, 25 August 2006 (UTC)- We do actually have an article on the Manalapan-Englishtown Regional School District. syphonbyte (t|c) 19:26, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
- ... and it is sorely in need of expansion from the sources cited above. Uncle G 00:31, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
- We do actually have an article on the Manalapan-Englishtown Regional School District. syphonbyte (t|c) 19:26, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
- Thank you for citing sources. I hope that we can continue to push the schools debate towards finding, reading, and citing sources, and away from the "stuck record" arguments and subjective evaluations of notability. Looking at the NYT source, it appears that there is enough information there to source an article on the whole
- Reply: Fair question. From your page: "The primary criterion for notability, that applies in all fields, is that an article's subject is notable if it has been the subject of non-trivial published works by multiple separate sources that are independent of that subject itself." I'm looking for them, but the article doesn't list any, and Google is of no help either (lots of hits for the school, which obviously exists, but nothing that fits your primary definition of a non-trivial published work. I have e.g. this NY times article[1], but it mentions nothing special about the Middle School (it confirms existence, of course). The more regional Asbury Park Press[2] thinks the schools are excellent (bravo!), but again makes no mention of what makes this school so distinct from other schools that it becomes notable. If someone can convince me by finding other sources that do establish notability, great: for now, it fails the norm. If you want this expressed in a policy: the claims which make the school different and thus notable (if you are not of the opinion, like some people are, that all schools are per se notable) are not verifiable in the sense of WP:V, until some of the editors of the article or some of the people that vote keep canproivde those references. To me, it all looks like some fancy names to give the impression of some unique concept, but basically it is a school like there are thousands of others. Fram 07:53, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
- Keep. This article has done a good job of explaining how it is different from other middle schools (through its class organization, use of technology, and school newspaper, which most middle schools don't have) and what makes the school distinctive. I don't believe that all middle or elementary schools are notable, but this one appears to be. TruthbringerToronto (Talk | contribs) 02:34, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
- Weak keep The article contains an assertion of notability, making it better than the average school at AFD. I'm not certain it will merit keeping once we have actual standards for school articles. GRBerry 03:36, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
- Exceeds the requirements of WP:SCHOOL, and it is a school, ergo Keep. syphonbyte (t|c) 05:18, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
- The only sources cited so far have discussed a group of schools all together, and the school district as a whole. What sources, independent of the school itself, do you have that discuss this school individually? Please cite sources. Uncle G 18:02, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
- Being the subject on multiple non-trivial published works is not the only criteria for notability for schools listed at WP:SCHOOL. I don't know if it's over 50 years old, or notable architecture, alumni or staff, but the article itself asserts that 2 to 6 students go to the State Science Fair each year, and it seems that students went to the World Odyssey of the Mind Finals. The school, teachers and students have also won other awards in the past, such as [3], [4], [5], [6] (The last link probably shouldn't be used as a reference due to problems with linking to Google caches; we could link to the PDF but I'm not sure about the copyright issues with the PDF format and such.) Also, it talks about what seems to be a very unique way of organizing classes with greek letters and such. I'm sure there's a lot more to be found rather easily. syphonbyte (t|c) 19:26, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
- Remember that WP:SCHOOL is only a proposed guideline, not an actual guideline. And if there is a lot more to be found easily, then please be my guest! Fram 20:24, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
- Indeed it is only proposed, but if you don't take its reccomendations into account then there's nothing else to really go by. I think what I found is more than sufficient to establish the school's notability. syphonbyte (t|c) 20:38, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
- Remember that WP:SCHOOL is only a proposed guideline, not an actual guideline. And if there is a lot more to be found easily, then please be my guest! Fram 20:24, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
- Being the subject on multiple non-trivial published works is not the only criteria for notability for schools listed at WP:SCHOOL. I don't know if it's over 50 years old, or notable architecture, alumni or staff, but the article itself asserts that 2 to 6 students go to the State Science Fair each year, and it seems that students went to the World Odyssey of the Mind Finals. The school, teachers and students have also won other awards in the past, such as [3], [4], [5], [6] (The last link probably shouldn't be used as a reference due to problems with linking to Google caches; we could link to the PDF but I'm not sure about the copyright issues with the PDF format and such.) Also, it talks about what seems to be a very unique way of organizing classes with greek letters and such. I'm sure there's a lot more to be found rather easily. syphonbyte (t|c) 19:26, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
- The only sources cited so far have discussed a group of schools all together, and the school district as a whole. What sources, independent of the school itself, do you have that discuss this school individually? Please cite sources. Uncle G 18:02, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
- Keep - verifiability over notability. --Myles Long 23:31, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
