Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Man in the Moon (Middle-earth)

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was Redirect after Merge. I see that the material has already been inclued into the suggested merge target. Under the GFDL we are obliged to preserve the history for attributation so a redirect is the only possible close here. Spartaz Humbug! 15:33, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Man in the Moon (Middle-earth)

Man in the Moon (Middle-earth) (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) – (View log)

Contested prod. This is an article about a fictionalized character within a fictional setting, with no secondary sources and no claim to real-world notability. Powers T 03:28, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

  • Keep: Notable; Wikipedia is not supposed to be a bureaucracy; Wikipedia is not paper; and people not wanting to read this article are usually not forced to read it, the article is found by being linked to in one way or another or by being typed in a URL or search engine. It's not like this article is being being inconvenient or anything. Is it adding extra poundage to a book or something?--Neverpitch 03:46, 14 November 2007 (UTC)— Neverpitch (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. Neverpitch is mass voting on every AFD as a keep using the same rationale. vote stricken by admin as user is attempting to make WP:POINT
  • Delete No sources, no claim of real world notability. TJ Spyke 04:13, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete. Per nom and TJ Spyke. Ravenna1961 04:17, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete per nom. --- tqbf 04:26, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete: Per above (notability especially). - Rjd0060 04:40, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete, purely in-universe and lacking notability outside of Tolkien's work. - Chardish 05:29, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete: Non notable -- ¿Amar៛Talk to me/My edits 09:19, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
  • Merge to Sun and Moon (Middle-earth). By itself it may not be that important, but if it's covered in an article which discusses the Sun and the Moon in Tolkien's writings, fine. Uthanc 12:41, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
  • Note: This debate has been included in the list of Literature-related deletions. -- the wub "?!" 15:08, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
  • Merge to Sun and Moon (Middle-earth), per Uthanc (some of the material is already there). By itself, there is not enough here to sustain an article, so merging is the logical choice. In future, if prods in this area are contested, please consider leaving a note at the WikiProject talk page (Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Middle-earth). We are currently tidying up a lot of other areas, but should have time to deal with individual articles without needing a full five-day discussion at AfD. Carcharoth 15:51, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
    • Note that Chardish (talk · contribs) appears to have responded to the above by placing a prod tag on Sun and Moon (Middle-earth). I understand that people do want to raise their concerns, but there are less aggressive ways to do so. Please consider discussing things before placing prod tags, and please consider discussing before responding to a removed prod tag with an AfD nomination. Taken to its logical conclusion, you will end up placing a prod tag on Middle-earth. A balance has to be struck, yes, but there is room in Wikipedia (even taking notability into account) for more than just J. R. R. Tolkien and Middle-earth and The Lord of the Rings. Disrupting ongoing clean-up work is not the best way to find the right balance of sourced and well-written articles. Carcharoth 16:08, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep. It is my belief that the number of unauthorized books written about Tolkien's world, such as The Complete Guide to Middle-earth by Robert Foster (which, indeed, has an entry on the Man in the Moon), makes lots of in-universe elements and characters notable, since they thus have been dealt with by multiple independent non-trivial sources. If not kept, this one should be merged into Sun & Moon, as suggested above. 96T 18:16, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
  • Merge I suggest merging into Sun and Moon (Middle-earth) as this does present some information which I think is worth keeping, but is not notable enough to merit its own page. In response to Carcharoth (talk · contribs), I would be tempted to merge this into Middle-earth but that article is already long enough, maybe a section in there on Middle-earth folklore would be a suitable place for this and Sun and Moon (Middle-earth). 82.153.19.100 00:03, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment - merge is still appropriate, but I thought people here might be interested in this: Honnegger, Thomas "The Man in the Moon: Structural Depth in Tolkien", published in "Root and Branch" (2000), from Walking Tree Publishers book review. From that review, we have:

    "The article "The Man in the Moon: Structural Depth in Tolkien" is divided into two parts. In the first half the author gives an extensive and detailled overview of all the occurences of the Man in the Moon; from the medieval thief of a thornbush (with perhaps Biblical references) to the English nursery rhyme of the 19th century. In the second half Thomas Honegger analyses the way Tolkien elaborated on the original Middle English poem. He focusses on the two poems (and their different versions) Tolkien wrote about the 'man in the moon who came down too soon'. It is a pity that the appearance in Tolkien's Roverandom is only mentioned in passing. Like most roo-diggers, the author could not resist having a guess at why Tolkien used this particular piece of folklore; "a construction of a missing linking tradition between medieval and modern Man in the Moon poems"."

    This is also relevant to The Man in the Moon Stayed Up Too Late and Man in the Moon (the real Moon this time!), though the literary analysis is probably best put at Sun and Moon (Middle-earth), with a brief mention at Man in the Moon, while a short summary of the poem can probably go at List of poems by J. R. R. Tolkien. Carcharoth 06:28, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
  • merge (either into the Sun & Moon article, or as merge target for the Man-in-the-Moon poems). Why do people keep putting perfectly obvious merge candidates on Afd? dab (𒁳) 10:00, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete since the article fails to assert both notability and provide real-world context of the fictional topic. It's purely in-universe. —Erik (talk • contrib) - 15:06, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
    • And a merge to an article that includes out-of-universe context will fix that. Carcharoth (talk) 00:03, 17 November 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete, no secondary data exists on the page. Lord Sesshomaru (talk • edits) 23:08, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
    • If secondary information was added, would that overcome your concerns? From the link you provide, I see "a critical analysis of the subject" would count as secondary information. Surely "Honnegger, Thomas "The Man in the Moon: Structural Depth in Tolkien", published in "Root and Branch" (2000)" counts as a critical analysis of the subject? A merger is still the best option in my opinion, but if it is an out-of-universe persepctive you are after, it is easily possible to mention the book titles: The Lord of the Rings, the relevant History of Middle-earth volumes (such as The Book of Lost Tales), The Silmarillion (for the Tilion references) and Roverandom for that mention. From what I can remember, the editorial notes to Roverandom, by Hammond and Scull, talk about the Man in the Moon in Roverandom, and the possible relationships to the Middle-earth stories and poems about the Man in the Moon. Carcharoth (talk) 23:44, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.