Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Makai

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was Delete. Keilana^talk_(recall) 00:23, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Makai

Makai (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) – (View log)

I'd like to suggest the deletion of the article since the word makai (魔界, which roughly means "world of supernatural beings" or "world of evil" in Japanese) is usually not used aside from fictional works (I'm talking about Japenese usage, of course), and even within the territory of fictional usage, it has likely no definite interpretation (as the article's opening prose suggests), hence this article would not likely be nothing but a repository of non-notable fictional worlds which have no connection to each other aside from the naming (that is, the currect state of the article). Neko jarashi (talk) 01:21, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

• Keep This word seems to be used in enough mediums (even in a video game title) to warrant keeping this article. Just because it's only been used in fictional works doesn't mean that it isn't notable, or that no one has written something about it in a secondary source. --NickPenguin_(contribs) 01:52, 23 December 2007 (UTC)
• Delete – Sorry to say. I saw no references, in my search that talks about the definition of the word makai. Hence, this could be considered WP:Original Research . Shoessss |  Chat  02:22, 23 December 2007 (UTC)
• Delete, no references or secondary sources that show this is a coherent concept. Has the smell of animecruft and WP:OR about it. Lankiveil (talk) 04:46, 23 December 2007 (UTC).
• Note: This debate has been included in the list of Japan-related deletions. —Fg2 (talk) 00:38, 24 December 2007 (UTC)
• Merge and redirect to Yōkai if no sources can be found to support this being a separate article. If sources can be found, then Keep. Despite what the article currently states, "makai" is basically just another (more modern) word or usage for yōkai (妖界), the supernatural place where yōkai (妖怪) when they can't be seen. And if we can keep the "this is cruft" slinging to a minimum, Lankiveil, that would be appreciated. This is a legitimate topic, just one for which it may be difficult to find sources talking about it in general terms. ···日本穣^{? · Talk to Nihonjoe} 02:30, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

  Comment This sounds like a good merge, but I am not terribly familiar with Japanese culture. Do you have a source I can read that shows this connection? --NickPenguin_(contribs) 04:03, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

  Comment Nihonjoe, is it a sort of 'non-fictional' stuff? Or are you talking about GeGeGe no Kitarou or something like this? Honestly, I've never heard of the yokai's world before. Neko jarashi (talk) 22:59, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

  After doing more research on it, it seems that both "makai" and "yōkai" (妖界) are mostly modern creations and used mainly in fiction. I think they are legitimate topics, and still think the article should be redirected as mentioned above if it is not kept. Perhaps a section about these usages could be added to the current yōkai article. ···日本穣^{? · Talk to Nihonjoe} 05:38, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

• Delete as OR and not notable. Gtstricky^{Talk or C} 03:18, 24 December 2007 (UTC)
• Comment On the one hand, this word does exist and has an entry in Kojien, albeit a very short one ("The world of demons"). On the other hand, the Kojien entry is also not accompanied with a reference to the first use of the word in a classical text, which suggests a possible modern origin of the word. My educated guess would be that the concept as such did not exist in classical Japanese mythology, so my suggested plan of action would be a removal from the J-myth template and a rewrite of the opening paragraph. The rewritten opening should be much shorter, should avoid false interlinks, and should state clearly that 'makai' is a modern narration tool. If such changes were made, I'd vote for a weak keep of the article, as it does seem to be a fairly widespread notion in modern fictional worlds. TomorrowTime (talk) 08:08, 24 December 2007 (UTC)
• Delete or Redirect to Mara (demon): While I'm not 100% sure, this word is likely used in Buddhism, in the sense of denoting Mara, an embodiment of carnal or worldly desire. So if not deleting the article, I insist this article be redirected towards the article Mara (demon). I think the fictional stuff shouldn't be mentioned in the article unless the problem of OR can be avoided. Neko jarashi (talk) 22:59, 24 December 2007 (UTC)
• Keep. I have heard the term used at Manga conventions. I vote keep for now, pending comment by a Manga expert. Sensiblekid (talk) 05:01, 29 December 2007 (UTC)
• Merge (with heavy trimming to remove the YuYu Hakusho bias) into the Popular Culture secttion Yokai. As in, into a paragraph-or-so subsection of there, mentioning the works makai appears in and conceptions of it. Per the above, this fictional location does not yet seem to have independent notability enough to satisfy WP:FICT. —Quasirandom (speak) 00:06, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.