Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Log/2008 January 20
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- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was delete. Yamamoto Ichiro 会話 02:24, 26 January 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Survivor Sucks
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AfDs for this article:
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Hmm. At first glanc, this doesn't seem to meet WP:WEB. In any case, it has no reliable sources, and reads a bit... Fan sitey. Chase me ladies, I'm the Cavalry (talk) 22:39, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
- Delete I didn't go to the website, and instead relied on the citations provided. One was unrelated (amazon), one was an incidental mention from Time, one was mentioned just fine (next to a slew of google ads on a questionable cite), and the last cite pulled a 404 Not Found error. Seems to be a bit weak to pass wp:web. Pharmboy (talk) 23:34, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
- Keep This is one of the most prominent discussion boards for reality TV. GreenGourd (talk) 03:04, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
- Delete, none of the sources in the article show how the board is notable per WP:WEB. NeoChaosX (talk, walk) 03:23, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
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- a half dozen references have been added ranging from websites devoted to TV to major daily newspapers. Owen93 (talk) 23:25, 23 January 2008 (UTC)— Owen93 (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
- Delete - agree that the sources are insufficient to demonstrate notability -- Whpq (talk) 16:59, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
- Delete - More referencing is needed to establish notability. The only reputable source, from a Time magazine website, mentions the site in passing. -FrankTobia (talk) 18:29, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
- Delete - Per nominator and NeochaosX. — Cuyler91093 - Contributions 00:46, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
- Delete, None of the sources cited in the article show how the board is notable. A substantial amount of the support seems to be coming from SPAs. JoelleJ (talk) 15:46, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
- KEEP- It was number 14 on a list of websites you'll want to visit recently published by a very prestigious magazine. The site was often mentiond by Janelle on Big Brother. but i don't know where it went.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 131.216.3.13 (talk)
- keep Considering it's the largest reality TV based message board on Yuku (or anywhere else on the internet), it's validity as an entry in Wikipedia speaks for itself. It was, and still is, the leading pioneer in spoiling reality shows, a prime source of info for many entertainment media outlets, and the primary communications hub for anything and everything related to Survivor. I should also remind you that it's been around longer than Wikipedia itself. - S. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.115.76.140 (talk)
- Note - this !vote was apparently added by user:Seraphaem who changed the "unsigned" template. I've reverted and added this note. Also note that user:Seraphaem is an WP:SPA. - Whpq (talk) 20:16, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
- Keep SurvivorSucks and It's creator were credited in the Finale of the First Season of Survivor. SurvivorSucks began as the first resource to spoil the results of the Survivor Series before the broadcast of events and has spawned the entire hobby of Reality Show Spoiling. - Owen93 (talk) 23:29, 22 January 2008 (UTC)— Owen93 (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
- Keep The website has some validity to it, after all it has been frequently mentioned in television shows and magazines as one of the premier Reality TV message boards. It seems strange to me that someone wants to delete this article when there are far shittier ones. Maybe they have an ulterior motive. Maybe they are just a bitch, I don't know. But this article should stay. - AE —Preceding unsigned comment added by ArtfulEgotist (talk • contribs) — ArtfulEgotist (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
- Keep The site has cultural sginifigance and has been regularly referred to by many major entertainment programs, and is one of the top sites for television discussion. —Preceding unsigned comment added by GrimGrinningGuest (talk • contribs)
- Keep The article might need to be cleaned up a bit, but Survivor Sucks is a legitimate website and part of pop culture. Just recently in the past few weeks it was listed in Entertainment Weekly. That being said anybody who hasn't gone to the website itself should not be allowed to decide if anything is valid. Yes sources are needed but then it should be nominated for clean up, not for deletion. —Preceding unsigned comment added by andytw710 (talk • contribs)
- KEEP you might as well delete wikipedia or Fox news while youre at it.Super Machine —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.192.142.136 (talk) 18:15, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
- Keep If for nothing else, This article should stay because it is the parent website of the Vote for the Worst website -- which has a legitimate entry. This entry just needs some serious cleaning up and proper references added. There are plenty of media references to VFTW and Sucks. It may be a "fan" site of sorts, but it has actually become a major reference and source of spoilers in the reality TV community. --208.57.154.196 (talk) 23:48, 22 January 2008 (UTC)crabbypatty
- Regarding the argument to keep because its parent website is seemingly notable, notability does not inherit. This article must establish the notability of its subject on its own. I encourage everyone who wants to keep, find reputable third party sources and add them to the article. I myself looked on Google, and could not find any. -FrankTobia (talk) 03:31, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
- Use Google News Archives and it brings up 183 articles for survivorsucks, some just about the site itself, some prominantly talking about survivor sucks while talking about the show and how the internet affects it and others. There is even one in National Geographic that, though it is about website naming and how it is evolving, they used survivorsucks.com as [i]the[/i] example for the whole anti sites evolution. The only problem is that many links are now broken or the sites charge money to access non-recent articlesLittleMatchGirl (talk) 05:51, 23 January 2008 (UTC) — LittleMatchGirl (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
- Couldn't find anything in the news for the past month [11][12]. Perhaps you could find reputable sources and use them in the article to demonstrate the subject's notability? -FrankTobia (talk) 15:02, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
- So by your logic, if something wasn't mentioned in the news within the last month, it isn't relevant and should be deleted from Wiki? Oh.. and you should check your links again. There are two aricles listed from Jan 2008LittleMatchGirl (talk) 07:21, 24 January 2008 (UTC) — LittleMatchGirl (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
- Keep - If this site gets deleted, then so should the 172 other Internet Forum articles listed here on Wikipedia. Also, how many of those 172 boards can claim to be significant enough in today's culture to be a Question on a Trivia Pursuit card?. If this board is relevant enough to be an answer of a trivia board game, surely it is worthy enough of having an article on Wikipedia. One more thing... one of the people above who said to delete this board stated as one of his/her reasonings was because they felt that the link to amazon was unrelated. CLEARLY this person did not even bother to read this article and determine what this citation was in reference to before damning it for deletion. That amazon link links to a book written by a spoiler from survivorsucks who spent a significant time spoiling the show on this board and wrote this book about it.. which is part of the history of this board.LittleMatchGirl (talk) 01:24, 23 January 2008 (UTC) — LittleMatchGirl (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
ETA: WP:WEB asks for sources where the site is mentioned.. here's one from a recent edition of Entertainment Weekly, where the site is listed as #14 on their list of the Best of the Web. This site is talked about it on Big Brother too... clips can be found on YouTube (search "survivor sucks").
Also if there are issues with reliable sources or if this article is too "fan sitey" wouldn't a better resolution to deletion be one of the "Alternatives to Deletion" listed in the WP:DP? (verify option? poor writing option?) Isn't "deletion" pretty harsh when there are other reasonable steps that can be taken first to resolve the issues at hand? You don't throw out the baby with the bathwaterLittleMatchGirl (talk) 02:59, 23 January 2008 (UTC) — LittleMatchGirl (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
- Keep - The problem with trying to support a site like this with external references is that it's going to be difficult to find one. I read the Entertainment Weekly article which did in fact list Sucks as #14 out of its top 25 or something. Google reveals no mention of that article, written by a Dalton Ross, I think, so I bet copyrighted and UTR of the search engines. Besides, that author gave a compliment to the site, but for all the wrong reasons, so even there a reference would be pointless. Besides, as noted in the main body of the article, when these people think "reference" they think "anal sex reference." This place is not a website that can be quantified. IvyGold (talk) 04:41, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
- Hurrah for the single-purpose accounts. Delete per nom.--WaltCip (talk) 13:39, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
- Keep —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.104.126.39 (talk) 21:49, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
- Keep - Obvious cultural significance. SS is the largest reality TV internet chat board. Has multiple references in reality TV culture. Starkrm (talk) 15:52, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of Websites-related deletion discussions. -- -- pb30<talk> 16:54, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
Keep Alexa numbers show that no one is using this site anymore, [13], but that said, it was notable at one point... Hobit (talk) 03:11, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
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- And still is. Majority of people who visit there access it via yuku.com or ezboard.com (survivorsucks.com wasn't connected to the board for many years, only recently being redirected to it.. as noted in the article)LittleMatchGirl (talk) 03:53, 25 January 2008 (UTC)— LittleMatchGirl (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
- Site logs show an average of 26000 visits and 3500 posts per day. User:Owen93 (talk) 12:25, 25 January 2008 (UTC) — Owen93 (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
- Here are the relevant Alexa numbers for the Survivor Sucks Yuku board [14] Starkrm (talk) 16:35, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
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- Keep - Are you kidding me? I (Snarky) would never want to delete the Sucks article. UncleCamerman (talk) 20:17, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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The result was Delete. Note: editor comments about editors were ignored. JERRY talk contribs 02:25, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Route to Infinity
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Notability not established in secondary sources, heavy reliance on self-referential sources. Anon-ip removed prod, so sending to AfD. Only one source used is not a primary source (Xenu.net) - all other sources used in the article are primary sources. If the article is discussed enough in WP:RS/WP:V secondary sources so as to satisfy the criteria at Wikipedia:Notability - that is not asserted in the article's present form. Cirt (talk) 11:18, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
- Keep - nominator is woefully ignorant of subject area he is mass-nominating; these deletions should be struck as examples of sincere but ignorant bureaucratisation - David Gerard (talk) 12:31, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
- Saying Nominator is woefully ignorant of subject area is rude, an assumption and you have no idea what I do or do not know, and has nothing to do with whether or not the subject matter is covered enough in secondary sources to assert notability. 12:31, 21 January 2008 (UTC). Cirt (talk) 12:35, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
- It's clear you don't know much if anything from your choices for mass-nomination. While I don't at all question your sincerity, I fear I must question your judgement. "Notability" and sourcing are guidelines, and this is an example of why - you do appear to have gone through a bureaucratic box-ticking exercise when mass-nominating, rather than applying subject-area knowledge. As such, you should reasonably expect to have this pointed out - David Gerard (talk) 12:39, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
- Comment. First WP:No personal attacks. Second, notability and sourcing support WP:Verifiability, which is official policy. If the article cannot be independently verified against openly published sources, it should not be included. • Gene93k (talk) 13:16, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
- It's clear you don't know much if anything from your choices for mass-nomination. While I don't at all question your sincerity, I fear I must question your judgement. "Notability" and sourcing are guidelines, and this is an example of why - you do appear to have gone through a bureaucratic box-ticking exercise when mass-nominating, rather than applying subject-area knowledge. As such, you should reasonably expect to have this pointed out - David Gerard (talk) 12:39, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
- Saying Nominator is woefully ignorant of subject area is rude, an assumption and you have no idea what I do or do not know, and has nothing to do with whether or not the subject matter is covered enough in secondary sources to assert notability. 12:31, 21 January 2008 (UTC). Cirt (talk) 12:35, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
- For your information, I have knowledge of the subject matter. I was putting that knowledge aside, because according to Wikipedia:Notability, notability is assessed through coverage in other sources. "A topic is presumed to be notable if it has received significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject." Well? Has the subject of this article received such coverage in independent WP:RS sources? Where? Which sources? That would be a much better AfD "Keep" rationale than going after the nominator. Cirt (talk) 12:41, 21 January 2008 (UTC).
- Keep - the comments on the part of people who are knowledgeable about the subject are persuasive to me. Phil Sandifer (talk) 18:57, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
- Comment
If enough evidence can be shown that there is significant coverage of this subject in independent secondary sources, I will withdraw my nomination and close this AfD myself. Cirt (talk) 15:49, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
- Weak delete I am not really convinced his particular one is important. DGG (talk) 05:13, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
- Delete no external refs cited - although Scientology and Hubbard are clearly notable not every book by Hubbard is. NBeale (talk) 17:11, 27 January 2008 (UTC)
- Delete, article has only pro and anti scientology propoganda links. AnteaterZot (talk) 00:01, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
Postscript: I'd like to say sorry to Cirt for being such an arse on this AFD and several others. I may have disagreed with the deletion nominations, but being a dick was not the way to do it. I apologise to Cirt and the wiki in general for my dickishness. I shall try to do better - David Gerard (talk) 22:09, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was Speedy Delete G12/I9 copyright violation text comes from here and the image is subject to published use restrictions that do not allow our use, per this. JERRY talk contribs 00:35, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Information Card Icon
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How can an icon be notable enough for an article? Can it ever provide enough context to stand on its own? I think not. Granted it is the most visible part of the marketing push, but it is nothing without InfoCards. It belongs alongside information on InfoCard, which is in the Windows CardSpace article, not separately. Btw, the icon represents InfoCard, not any arbitrary digital information card. soum talk 05:59, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
- Merge/redirect to Information Card per nom. Jfire (talk) 06:08, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
- Merge with Information card M2Ys4U (talk) 16:34, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
Postscript: I'd like to say sorry to Cirt for being such an arse on this AFD and several others. I may have disagreed with the deletion nominations, but being a dick was not the way to do it. I apologise to Cirt and the wiki in general for my dickishness. I shall try to do better - David Gerard (talk) 22:07, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
Postscript: I'd like to say sorry to Cirt for being such an arse on this AFD and several others. I may have disagreed with the deletion nominations, but being a dick was not the way to do it. I apologise to Cirt and the wiki in general for my dickishness. I shall try to do better - David Gerard (talk) 22:08, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
Postscript: I'd like to say sorry to Cirt for being such an arse on this AFD and several others. I may have disagreed with the deletion nominations, but being a dick was not the way to do it. I apologise to Cirt and the wiki in general for my dickishness. I shall try to do better - David Gerard (talk) 22:08, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
Postscript: I'd like to say sorry to Cirt for being such an arse on this AFD and several others. I may have disagreed with the deletion nominations, but being a dick was not the way to do it. I apologise to Cirt and the wiki in general for my dickishness. I shall try to do better - David Gerard (talk) 22:08, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
Postscript: I'd like to say sorry to Cirt for being such an arse on this AFD and several others. I may have disagreed with the deletion nominations, but being a dick was not the way to do it. I apologise to Cirt and the wiki in general for my dickishness. I shall try to do better - David Gerard (talk) 22:08, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
Postscript: I'd like to say sorry to Cirt for being such an arse on this AFD and several others. I may have disagreed with the deletion nominations, but being a dick was not the way to do it. I apologise to Cirt and the wiki in general for my dickishness. I shall try to do better - David Gerard (talk) 22:08, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
Postscript: I'd like to say sorry to Cirt for being such an arse on this AFD and several others. I may have disagreed with the deletion nominations, but being a dick was not the way to do it. I apologise to Cirt and the wiki in general for my dickishness. I shall try to do better - David Gerard (talk) 22:08, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
- NOTE the above article was recreated the same day it was deleted. Vegaswikian (talk) 03:56, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was keep. John254 03:10, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Tsvi C. Nussbaum
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Tsvi Nussbaum's only claim to fame is that he might be the little boy in the Warsaw ghetto photograph. The photograph itself may well be notable enough to have an article (an issue I have no opinion on), but Nussbaum himself, who might not even be in the photograph, certainly isn't. —Angr If you've written a quality article... 06:46, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
- Delete NN person. Even if that was him in the picture (which there is no proof of), I still wouldn't consider him notable. TJ Spyke 07:12, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
- Keep. Whether or not it is him in the photo, he has recieved attention. He was the subject of a documentary, we have a nicely referenced article, another nice looking article, an article on the photo talking about him a lot and a hit on Google Scholar I won't open because of my hatred of PDFs. I reckon he is notable. J Milburn (talk) 13:02, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
- Keep. Obvious historic value even if he eventually turns out not to be the boy in the photo. Should we also delete every article listed in Romanov claimants or in Category:Impostor pretenders? — BRIAN0918 • 2008-01-20 14:07Z
- Keep, article requires referencing but with the links provided in external links and by J Milburn it has notability - Dumelow (talk) 18:32, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
- Speedy Keep per J Milburn above. Epson291 (talk) 19:57, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
- DELETE THIS FOR SURE. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 137.154.16.30 (talk) 04:05, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
- Keep this for sure (even without the all caps). A rather strong claim of notability is amde, which should be expanded, not deleted. Alansohn (talk) 06:14, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
- In the article as it currently stands, there is no claim of notability at all, let alone a strong one. And so far no one has done anything with the references J Milburn supplied above. —Angr If you've written a quality article... 17:52, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
- Keep the reference sgiven are sufficient, and discuss whether the identification is correct, and that's all that needed.V not truth--we do not have to prove it. DGG (talk) 05:50, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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The result was keep (non-admin closure). SeanMD80talk | contribs 03:00, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Dapto High School
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ATTENTION!
If you came here because someone asked you to, or you read a message on a forum, please note that this is not a majority vote, but rather a discussion to establish a consensus among Wikipedia editors on whether a page is suitable for this encyclopedia. Wikipedia has policies and guidelines to help us decide this, and deletion decisions are made on the merits of the arguments, not by counting votes. Nonetheless, you are welcome to participate and express your opinions. Remember to assume good faith on the part of others and to sign your posts on this page by adding ~~~~ at the end.Note: Comments by suspected single-purpose accounts can be tagged using {{subst:spa|username}} |
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An article on a non-notable high school. The article has existed since October 31, 2006 and still has no references to offer. Heavy vandalism is an ongoing concern with this article also, keeping it in a near constant semi-protected state. -- Longhair\talk 10:54, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of Australia-related deletion discussions. —Longhair\talk 10:54, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
- Keep I've never seen a high school that could not be referenced. Don't have time myself at the moment, but i'm confident references are available.--Cube lurker (talk) 16:37, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of Schools-related deletion discussions. -- --Cube lurker (talk) 16:41, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
Mergewith locality - ie Dapto, New South Wales until references external to the school have been located and content developed such that it needs separate article.--Matilda talk 21:13, 20 January 2008 (UTC)- Keep Aren't high schools inherently notable? I also agree with the comment above — with time references could most certainly be found — Galaxy250 (talk) 21:30, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
- Comment - see Wikipedia:Notability (schools) - there is no consensus that schools are inherently notable. There are some criteria to establish notbaility - none of these have been put forward for Dapto. Where notability has not been established, what is usual : A school article that fails to establish notability will not be deleted, if the school can be confirmed to exist. It would be simply redirected to the appropriate article for the relevant locality or school district (US and Canada only). Thus the article could be later expanded back out into its own article again when sources should become available. --Matilda talk 22:15, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
- keep - Generaly articles on school's are good way into wikipedia for younger people, they can write about something they know about and learn a lot about citations, npov, vandalism and a lot of other important things. Fasach Nua (talk) 21:36, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
- Comment - it would seem that the only thing the students of Dapto High are learning about is vandalism in the 15 months or more of the article's existence. Perhaps the young people could learn about their locality instead while expanding the sub section on their school til it is large enough to be broken out. The article currently has all but no meaningful content other than it exists. --Matilda talk 22:20, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
- Keep - Consensus has found that high/secondary schools are notable (see WP:OUTCOMES). An article being frequently vandalized is NOT a reason to delete it. The Los Angeles, California article is vandalized almost every day; are we to delete that? --Oakshade (talk) 01:19, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
- Comment - you have misquoted WP:Outcomes which states with respect to high schools: Schools are frequently nominated for deletion, but consensus is frequently not reached. Most of the approximately 270 school articles nominated for deletion in the eight months January to August 2005, resulted in no consensus, while fewer than 15% have actually been deleted. Most elementary and middle schools that don't claim notability are now getting deleted in AfD, with high schools in most cases being kept. - concensus frequently not reached and high schools in most cases being kept - does not equal concensus being found that high schools are notable. You have not addressed the issue of notability in relation to Dapto High. Moreover, the issue is not merely that the article is frequently vandalised, it is that no content has been added in over a year other than to say the school exists I have found no sources to support any claim to notability (I have searched which seems to be more than any editor who has so far expressed a view of keeping the article). There are no reliable sources even to support the claim of poor academic results which frequently gets added. Other than celebrating 50 years, there is nothing to say. Probably a good thing! Why can this not be said in a sub section of the locality article as per Wikipedia:Notability (schools)? The current policy proposal for schools and Wikipedia:Outcomes suggest redirection is a reasonable outcome. --Matilda talk 02:34, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
- First of all, I wasn't quoting WP:OUTCOMES. However, as you typed out, WP:OUTCOMES states "... with high schools in most cases being kept." That is what WP:CONSENSUS has found and there is no evidence prior to this AfD that consensus has changed. The nom used frequent vandalism of this article as one of their primary reasons to delete it. --Oakshade (talk) 02:55, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
- Concensus was not necessarily found - as the point initially states Schools are frequently nominated for deletion, but consensus is frequently not reached - keeping of high schools was as a result of no concensus to delete which is not the same thing as consensus to keep. I can appreciate that vandalism is not a criterion for deletion, however, notability should be a criterion for keeping and not redirecting to locality article (sub section on schools or this school as appropriate). When sufficient material has been written the article can be broken out again. --Matilda talk 03:12, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
- First of all, I wasn't quoting WP:OUTCOMES. However, as you typed out, WP:OUTCOMES states "... with high schools in most cases being kept." That is what WP:CONSENSUS has found and there is no evidence prior to this AfD that consensus has changed. The nom used frequent vandalism of this article as one of their primary reasons to delete it. --Oakshade (talk) 02:55, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
- Comment - you have misquoted WP:Outcomes which states with respect to high schools: Schools are frequently nominated for deletion, but consensus is frequently not reached. Most of the approximately 270 school articles nominated for deletion in the eight months January to August 2005, resulted in no consensus, while fewer than 15% have actually been deleted. Most elementary and middle schools that don't claim notability are now getting deleted in AfD, with high schools in most cases being kept. - concensus frequently not reached and high schools in most cases being kept - does not equal concensus being found that high schools are notable. You have not addressed the issue of notability in relation to Dapto High. Moreover, the issue is not merely that the article is frequently vandalised, it is that no content has been added in over a year other than to say the school exists I have found no sources to support any claim to notability (I have searched which seems to be more than any editor who has so far expressed a view of keeping the article). There are no reliable sources even to support the claim of poor academic results which frequently gets added. Other than celebrating 50 years, there is nothing to say. Probably a good thing! Why can this not be said in a sub section of the locality article as per Wikipedia:Notability (schools)? The current policy proposal for schools and Wikipedia:Outcomes suggest redirection is a reasonable outcome. --Matilda talk 02:34, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
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- From our discussion on my talk page, It is clear that you do not agree that the recently-added content satisfies the notability requirement, at least not to your satisfaction. While I agree that this content does not define notability for the school, I do maintain that it provides a certain fullness, a certain roundedness, and the certain je ne sais quoi that an article has to have to be more than a mere listing. While the WP:SCL is not de jure (has not been officially ratified), it has the effect of being in force, de facto, in that over and over again articles get nominated for deletion, and the same outcome prevails. High school articles are almost invariably kept. They are the kind of institutions that have a place of importance in their communities that certainly means that sources will be found for them. One only has to look. It is a matter of convenience to assume that high school articles are notable, in order to avoid all this wasted time. We collectively write thousands of words about how 50 words need to be deleted, and to what end? A this article survived AFD banner on a talk page. Nearly every single time. The bright lines provided by WP:SCHOOL are convenient, and they are very much in effect, ratified or not, in daily AFD discussions. This AFD is yet more proof. You may also want to read what User:Jimbo has said on the subject: here. JERRY talk contribs 05:43, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
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- My issue raised on your talk page was to congratualte you as the only !voter of keep to have actually added some content. I think the things you have added do not make the school notable and I have explained that on your talk page. You did however wrongly suggest that the school was ranked about 500th in Australia (and thought by use of adjective that this was a good result) when in fact its current ranking is 602 out of 673 in NSW with an HSC success rate for credit ranking of around 1% compared with top ranked school of 74%. The other keep !voters have added no content and I doubt whether they even know where Dapto is. They are satisfied that a school exists and therefore must have an article. It may be a matter of convenience to assume all high schools are notable. It is also lazy and not in fact generally so. We have good processes to redirect to locality articles - thus adding to that article. Your suggestion below that this AfD is snowy is depressingly true becuase there are contributers who vote blindly and do not think through issues of notability - nor are they prepared to contribute to add content.--Matilda talk 06:06, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
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- Keep Article has oodles of encyclopedic content, plenty of sources, stablishes notability per WP:N without having to reply on WP:SCHOOL; let's keep this discussion on track... its not about WP:SCHOOL, its about this article. This AfD is looking pretty snowy to me. JERRY talk contribs 03:49, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
- SHOULD BE DELETED FOR SURE. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 137.154.16.30 (talk) 03:55, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
- Keep Above and beyond the broad consensus that all such articles are inherently notable, the article as it currently stands providesd ample reliable and verifiable sources to satisfy the Wikipedia:Notability standard. Alansohn (talk) 06:02, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
- Delete This school is non-notable and the article doesn't make any claims that it's anything more than a standard high school. I'm skeptical about the claims that there's a consensus that high schools are automatically notable - the proposed WP:SCHOOL guideline is going nowhere and violates key wikipedia policies and I've seen articles on high schools deleted. As such, I'd prefer to see people come up with a better reason to keep this kind of article than what's basically a variant of WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS. --Nick Dowling (talk) 09:00, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
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- Comment - you are, again, misdirecting yourself when you say "the article doesn't make any claims that it's anything more than a standard high school". It doesn't need to; it needs to have multiple, independent sources to meet WP:N; which it does. TerriersFan (talk) 21:38, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
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- Comment Actually, given that high schools aren't automatically notable (WP:SCHOOL is nothing but a proposal) notability does need to be demonstrated. I genuinely don't see how a collection of newspaper references about things which happen at all high schools "address the subject directly in detail" and are "more than trivial". There seems to be a view that a handful of routine mentions in the media makes something forever notable - this doesn't make much sense to me, especially when the incidents which it is claimed establish notability involve non-notable people doing non-notable things such as teenagers lighting fires. --Nick Dowling (talk) 09:12, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
- Merge This meme that schools are by consensus inherently notable continues to pop up. I have not seen anywhere where this consensus has been demonstrated. The article is distinctly lacking in encyclopedic content. A 50th anniversary celebration, a minor fire ($100,000 in damage is not much and arsonists attack schools on a reasonably regular basis) and a unremarkable HSC ranking. Throwing every mention that can be found on Google into the article does not make it encyclopedic. Merge to Dapto, New South Wales until some content with some claim to encyclopedic value can be found. -- Mattinbgn\talk 12:18, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
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- Comment I agree - Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of information, which is what school articles now turn into when well-meaning people try to save non-notable school articles from deletion. --Nick Dowling (talk) 09:15, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
- Keep Any high school will almost certainly have notable things about it. Just may take time to find. Hobit (talk) 19:25, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
- Keep - It has multiple, independent sources to meet WP:N. TerriersFan (talk) 21:38, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
- Keep. It only took me a couple of minutes to find that the school's careers advisor was named top careers advisor in New South Wales for his innovative programme, and to add this (with a reliable source) to the article. I'm sure there's loads more stuff that could be added, but there's more than enough there to establish notability already, and it's way past my bedtime so I can't do it now. Phil Bridger (talk) 00:14, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
- Keep. Plenty of stuff to establish notability. Rebecca (talk) 01:03, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was delete. Yamamoto Ichiro 会話 02:36, 26 January 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Barack Obama media controversy
– (View AfD)
Previously nominated at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Barack Obama Muslim rumor. Please note that withdrawal does not: a) endorse keeping the article, and b) does not forbid AfDs at any time. Will (talk) 19:00, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
- (Delete) Hopeless POV coatrack article about a major living public figure. No equivalent article exists for any other of the prospective Republican or Democrat candidates for the election. Whole thing appears to expound on the fact he's a) black, and b) he went to Madrassa, and c) that stupid email rumour. For God's sake, this is longer than the article on Monicagate. This really should not be an article. Will (talk) 18:54, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
- Comment. Editors should have a look at Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons for relevant Wikipedia policy on articles such as this. As this article is also technically a fork of Barack Obama, Wikipedia:Content forking is also of relevance. When leaving comments about whether to keep or delete the article, bear in mind that this is not a vote, so please provide reasons for taking the course of action that you suggest. -- ChrisO (talk) 19:42, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
- Delete - I would help merge any actual useful info into the Insight (magazine) page (as it already has a section there). Any refs on Wikipedia can link to the section. Just the fact that Obama's faith was questioned does not need its own article! Especially since his unequivocal statement - which has not since been questioned. Any incidents involving Insight magazine (including the way it was reported) should surely stay in the Insight article. --Matt Lewis (talk) 19:52, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
- Delete - This fails the long term notability test, his Presidential campaign page already contains the relevent information, this page should just be deleted. Epson291 (talk) 19:55, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
- Frag Sceptre hit it on the nail. A useless content fork which appears to have some latent POV-pushing intent. Just because it's the election doesn't make everything about a candidate notable. David Fuchs (talk) 20:04, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
- Delete or merge. (Disclosure: I've been a regular contributor to the article.) Per nom, this article has become a hopeless coatrack, including barely relevant content about Clinton supporters, speculation about the Clinton campaign and unnamed Republicans, past rivals of Barack in Illinois, and the production values of Katie Couric's video blog. The entire article presents undue weight: Obama's detractors seek to link American prejudice against Islam to a self-described Christian candidate, and this article, if perhaps well-intentioned, only facilitates that dubious goal. Even use of the word madrassa in reference to the school carries a loaded political meaning.[48] I've previously argued for an article covering the controversy over journalism ethics and standards, but that topic might not be notable enough in and of itself, and currently the article's scope goes far beyond this anyway. Delete article, but maybe merge some content with Barack Obama presidential campaign, 2008, Hillary Rodham Clinton presidential campaign, 2008, Insight (magazine), SDN Menteng 01, and possibly United States journalism scandals, Fox News Channel controversies, The Washington Post, and other news outlets and personalities, but only if careful attention is paid to pertinence and proper weighting. - Tobogganoggin talk 20:38, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
- Keep and Rename back to Barack Obama Muslim rumor. That topic is clearly notable considering the hundreds if not thousands of newsarticles written, including a mention in a Democratic debate, and public letters written about the subject by prominent American Jewish leaders and members of Congress. I am an Obama supporter, but this is clearly a notable controversy and not a POV track. Joshdboz (talk) 20:59, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
- Comment. Doesn't this rationale suggest we should also create a Hillary Clinton sexism article? - Tobogganoggin talk 21:50, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
- Delete or merge, per Tobogganoggin. (Disclosure: I launched the original AfD, renamed the article and withdrew my nomination when a broad consensus to delete did not emerge, made substantial contributions, then nominated this version for good article status--it failed). There is nothing in the current article that can't be better handled in appropriate context through a merge with parallel or duplicate text that already exists in other articles. Some of the material now covered is unfit for Wikipedia and should be deleted entirely. --HailFire (talk) 21:43, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
- delete povfork, attack article, patent nonsence, this article is everything that is wrong with WP Fasach Nua (talk) 21:58, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
- Keep, deleting only keeps factually-based knowledge from the public in a time at which it is vitally important to society. Fifty7 (talk) 00:23, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
- Comment - The subject is not being kept from the public as it is also covered in Wikipedia's main articles (and will be more so if this is deleted). Wikipedia is not a collection of all factually-based knowledge, and it's not a moral guardian ether.--Matt Lewis (talk) 02:09, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
- keep, of course. Absurd nomination. The connected subjects of the nature and effect of Obama's connections to the Moslem faith, the nature and effect of the media's coverage of the subject, and other related phenomena (e.g., accusatory emails, resultant firings) has been the subject of a multiplicity of non-trivial coverage in WP:RS.
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- As a complicated WP:N subject in and of itself that requires considerable length to properly develop this article is a perfectly proper content fork from Barack Obama presidential campaign, 2008.
- Allegations that this article is a POV fork are false -- reading it one will reasonably conclude that Obama is not a Muslim and was not trained to be a suicide bomber or deep agent as a six year old. There is no fork in POV from the parent article, where I believe there is a proper summary.
- Allegations that this article is a WP:COATRACK are even more bogus. The title ought to include "Muslim", since that is the focus, but the content of the article is what the title announces it is, not some secondary "bias subject", as the COATRACK essay terms it. There is a list of COATRACK types in the essay, and this article fits none of them.
- Allegations that this article violates WP:WEIGHT are silly. The idea that the subject is less important than Monicagate and therefor must have a shorter article is obtunded in so many ways that I'm at a loss where to begin. And the subject is anyway not unimportant. Race is undoubtedly more important to why Obama's vote results don't match his polls than his name, but the Hussein business plays its part, and Wikipedia should offer a comprehensive NPOV treatment of the subject. This article is the place to attempt it. Andyvphil (talk) 00:50, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
- Comment. 4. above is unreferenced and POV. The Hussain name could play more of a part than his colour - but either way, why "should" Wikipedia offer a treatment? Wikipedia is not a newspaper of events, and we are not journalists with our own comment columns. We all agree it is noteworthy to a point, but context can be found in existing articles. Also, the main point about Coatrack articles is surely that they are constantly open to abuse, however well-intended they were when created (which is covered). As for the 'typical examples' in the Coatrack essay (not the best part of it) - Attack Article is the closest, though no one example singularly covers the Obama-relevant 'Fact picking' section of the essay, or these side-pages in fact (surely the best use for the essay) - but it will! --Matt Lewis (talk) 02:09, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
- WP should have this article because it the subject is WP:N, the content is WP:V, and it complies in all ways with policy, including BLP. And the subject is actually important. I haven't checked to see if I can cite a RS asserting that the Muslim overtones of Obama's name has contributed to the way he has experienced the Tom Bradley effect, but we are supposed to be engaged here in debate about the significance of the subject, not writing content into mainspace. Asking me to cite my arguments to a RS on pain of being dismissed as POV is a category error. Andyvphil (talk) 00:07, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
- But did I really ask that? That's the kind of minute needling that is everything that is wrong with these type of articles. You appear to want this singular article because it is important news to you personally, and you want it to be noticed - but that's the wrong way to look at it. There is a fine line between what actually is news, and what is made news, or kept as news. What is true of the media is a potential trapping for Wikipedia too. This story doesn't even come near the line any more, and simply doesn't warrant it's own important and repeatedly linked to 'premium slot' page. It is already has space on the Insight page and an Obama page - deletion here is censoring nothing. --Matt Lewis (talk) 01:03, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
- WP should have this article because it the subject is WP:N, the content is WP:V, and it complies in all ways with policy, including BLP. And the subject is actually important. I haven't checked to see if I can cite a RS asserting that the Muslim overtones of Obama's name has contributed to the way he has experienced the Tom Bradley effect, but we are supposed to be engaged here in debate about the significance of the subject, not writing content into mainspace. Asking me to cite my arguments to a RS on pain of being dismissed as POV is a category error. Andyvphil (talk) 00:07, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
- Delete. Hopelessly POV, and simply read Andyphil's POV comment above for the reason this repository of POV-pushing on a living person needs to be deleted straightaway. There are those who will try to force these things into WP articles, no matter how many times they are discredited. -- Bellwether BC 02:05, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
- Delete Cleaning up the POV in the article is pointless. There is no "there" there. This is just a random collection of disparaging remarks, rumors and innuendos (with accompanying mentions of denials or apologies for psuedo-"balance.")--Loonymonkey (talk) 03:30, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
- Merge any useful content into the proper section at Barack Obama presidential campaign, 2008#False allegations that Obama is or was Muslim--STX 04:19, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
- You do recall doing that once before, to complaints from the resident editors that you had imported too much material into their article. There isn't less now. Andyvphil (talk) 07:56, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
- I thought it worked out fine.--STX 00:12, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
- Indeed. The resident editors were unhappy, but kindly let the material stay until the first deletion nomination was withdrawn. If it had passed would you have defended its retention or is deletion of most of the material you transferred there the happy result you wished for? Andyvphil (talk) 23:37, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
- I try to edit by consensus. At the time of the first AFD it appeared (as it does now) that the consensus was for the article to not exist on its own but as a sub-section of the main article. Its the responsibility of the creators of this article and the primary editors of Barack Obama presidential campaign, 2008 to sort out how much weight the content should be given. --STX 21:36, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
- Indeed. The resident editors were unhappy, but kindly let the material stay until the first deletion nomination was withdrawn. If it had passed would you have defended its retention or is deletion of most of the material you transferred there the happy result you wished for? Andyvphil (talk) 23:37, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
- I thought it worked out fine.--STX 00:12, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
- You do recall doing that once before, to complaints from the resident editors that you had imported too much material into their article. There isn't less now. Andyvphil (talk) 07:56, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
- delete POV fork, and merge any useful content to one of the related main articles. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 16:34, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
- Question How is it a POV fork or coatrack if the article makes clear that the reports of him attending a madrassa etc. were incorrect? If there was no mention of the allegations being proven untrue, then I could see it being a POV fork or coatrack. :In this case as long as the facts are stuck to the situation is the conservative reverse of the Rathergate issue; reporting based on incomplete information that was revealed as such. There certainly was enough coverage to establish notability, including media like the NY Times discussing the poor quality of Insight's sources. Anynobody 02:11, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
- Obama’s unequivocal statement that he was never a Muslim outdates the article subject, as he’s not been proven wrong. Where a guardian takes a minor would not legally stand. The negative ‘balance’ has now become a collection of outdated smears. Mud ‘sticks’ because it cannot be properly argued – it’s just conjecture. So evenly-weighted balance cannot exist here – the mud has it over Obama, so to speak. Any Insight stories belong naturally in the Insight article - which can be linked to if needed. Wikipedia is not a newspaper and is not here to keep news alive, or even, necessarily, to cover news. It has an encyclopaedia’s standards - which are very different to media ones. Mud has the weight here, in a specially-created article that has been given a hugely disproportionate weight of coverage on Wikipedia. It’s been an embarrassment for Wikipedia in my opinion. The story clearly belongs inside the various relevant main articles, and should never have been forked off - even when the story broke. These side articles come under the same rules as all articles on Wikipedia – but when they have coatrack flaws in their subject, they so easily become sandboxes for armchair journalists and POV pushers. To answer your question in summary: the POV here is actually in the article’s continued existence – the assumption that it is deserving and balanced, when by Wikipedia’s standards, it is intrinsically neither. (COATRACK, WEIGHT, FORK = mud = POV = article's existence). Don't build a house on sand.--Matt Lewis (talk) 07:07, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
- Unlike most of the votes on this page, you're actually debating your position, rather than emitting a catchphrase and pointing with alarm. But Obama's denial obviously does not "outdate the article subject" because the article's subject is not whether Obama is a Muslim. Were that the article's subject I agree we could dispose of it without a separate article. But it's not. Andyvphil (talk) 23:47, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
- In relation to the coatrack question, I think this is answered at WP:COAT#"But it's true!". -- ChrisO (talk) 08:32, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
- It's answered there all right. "When confronted with a potential coatrack article, an editor is invited to ask: what impression does an uninitiated reader get from this article?... A coatrack article fails to give a truthful impression of the subject." This article gives a truthful impression of the subject: Obama is not a Muslim and did not attend a Wahabi madrassa. On the other hand his denials have been somewhat misleading. His denial that he prayed in a mosque seems to be true only if you don't count going through the motions. And the media's performance has been abysmal. All true. Andyvphil (talk) 23:28, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
- I have knelt several times during a Catholic prayer while attending with friends or family throughout my life. Yet I would contend I've never "prayed" in these services. Am I being "misleading"? I hardly think so. I didn't, even though I went through the motions out of politesse. -- Bellwether BC 23:33, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
- Unnecessarily standing while everyone else kneels would of course be impolite and call unnecessary and disruptive attention to yourself. One would do better not to show up than to stand on one's dignity. (How far one must go to be polite when others are touching their foreheads to the ground in the direction of Mecca in a good question of etiquette, but not on point here.) If you were simply asked whether you had ever prayed in church and said "No" that would not be misleading, although it would not be forthcoming either. But if it were observed that you were seen to pray and you simply responded that it was a lie to say so you would indeed pass over into misleading, the clarification that you were merely being polite no longer being optional, should you choose to respond. Obama has omitted saying he merely went through the motions. Misleadingly. (Only a venal sin in middle-of-the-road politicans, who invariably cultivate ambiguity, the better to get votes from people who might not like the exact truth.) And the media has never asked him. Abysmal. Andyvphil (talk) 00:14, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
- You're free to that opinion, naturally, but this is not the forum to discuss it. This is AfD, the place to discuss whether this article passes snuff by Wikipedia policies and guidelines, not whether Barack Obama pulled a fast one on the media. - Revolving Bugbear 00:16, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
- No one seems to be advancing much in the way of argument that the article fails to pass snuff under policy or guideline. Would you care to do so? Andyvphil (talk) 00:21, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
- At the moment, no. The only reason I commented was because it seemed clear to me that this is not the place for a discussion of religion and semantics. - Revolving Bugbear 00:24, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
- The question was whether this article is an example of WP:COAT#"But it's true!", which it would be only if it gives "an uninitiated reader [an un]truthful impression of the subject". Hard to answer that without referring to what a truthful impression of the subject would be. Andyvphil (talk) 00:42, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
- Comment - Does it actually matter if Obama truly prayed as a child? He was a flippin child! We can’t even be sure if Obama even remembers his thoughts in those days. We simply cannot suggest he is “misleading” the world for leaving out of his ‘religious picture’ where a guardian took him as a minor – it’s aggressive and wrong to chase him on that. And we can't even PROVE anything either way! To give 'motions of prayer' THIS kind of high-profile negative importance is hugely anti-Islamic. It's utterly insulting to them. The Insight reporting issues are secondary to all this – and they must naturally remain covered in their relevant articles elsewhere. Coatrack articles attract those dedicated Wikipedians who think that everyone who happens to be against them must be conspiring to conceal 'The Truth'. They will incessantly duck and dive till they get their way. They barely scan disagreeing comments – why bother when you already know you are right? That we these allow people to run for so long with these high-profile coatracks is madness. The ‘importance’ here is in the damage they can do with their POV pushing – not least to Wikipedia’s image. I detest Islamophobia and the article (and some of the comments on it) reeks of it. --Matt Lewis (talk) 01:21, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
- The question was whether this article is an example of WP:COAT#"But it's true!", which it would be only if it gives "an uninitiated reader [an un]truthful impression of the subject". Hard to answer that without referring to what a truthful impression of the subject would be. Andyvphil (talk) 00:42, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
- At the moment, no. The only reason I commented was because it seemed clear to me that this is not the place for a discussion of religion and semantics. - Revolving Bugbear 00:24, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
- No one seems to be advancing much in the way of argument that the article fails to pass snuff under policy or guideline. Would you care to do so? Andyvphil (talk) 00:21, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
- You're free to that opinion, naturally, but this is not the forum to discuss it. This is AfD, the place to discuss whether this article passes snuff by Wikipedia policies and guidelines, not whether Barack Obama pulled a fast one on the media. - Revolving Bugbear 00:16, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
- Unnecessarily standing while everyone else kneels would of course be impolite and call unnecessary and disruptive attention to yourself. One would do better not to show up than to stand on one's dignity. (How far one must go to be polite when others are touching their foreheads to the ground in the direction of Mecca in a good question of etiquette, but not on point here.) If you were simply asked whether you had ever prayed in church and said "No" that would not be misleading, although it would not be forthcoming either. But if it were observed that you were seen to pray and you simply responded that it was a lie to say so you would indeed pass over into misleading, the clarification that you were merely being polite no longer being optional, should you choose to respond. Obama has omitted saying he merely went through the motions. Misleadingly. (Only a venal sin in middle-of-the-road politicans, who invariably cultivate ambiguity, the better to get votes from people who might not like the exact truth.) And the media has never asked him. Abysmal. Andyvphil (talk) 00:14, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
- I have knelt several times during a Catholic prayer while attending with friends or family throughout my life. Yet I would contend I've never "prayed" in these services. Am I being "misleading"? I hardly think so. I didn't, even though I went through the motions out of politesse. -- Bellwether BC 23:33, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
- It's answered there all right. "When confronted with a potential coatrack article, an editor is invited to ask: what impression does an uninitiated reader get from this article?... A coatrack article fails to give a truthful impression of the subject." This article gives a truthful impression of the subject: Obama is not a Muslim and did not attend a Wahabi madrassa. On the other hand his denials have been somewhat misleading. His denial that he prayed in a mosque seems to be true only if you don't count going through the motions. And the media's performance has been abysmal. All true. Andyvphil (talk) 23:28, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
- Obama’s unequivocal statement that he was never a Muslim outdates the article subject, as he’s not been proven wrong. Where a guardian takes a minor would not legally stand. The negative ‘balance’ has now become a collection of outdated smears. Mud ‘sticks’ because it cannot be properly argued – it’s just conjecture. So evenly-weighted balance cannot exist here – the mud has it over Obama, so to speak. Any Insight stories belong naturally in the Insight article - which can be linked to if needed. Wikipedia is not a newspaper and is not here to keep news alive, or even, necessarily, to cover news. It has an encyclopaedia’s standards - which are very different to media ones. Mud has the weight here, in a specially-created article that has been given a hugely disproportionate weight of coverage on Wikipedia. It’s been an embarrassment for Wikipedia in my opinion. The story clearly belongs inside the various relevant main articles, and should never have been forked off - even when the story broke. These side articles come under the same rules as all articles on Wikipedia – but when they have coatrack flaws in their subject, they so easily become sandboxes for armchair journalists and POV pushers. To answer your question in summary: the POV here is actually in the article’s continued existence – the assumption that it is deserving and balanced, when by Wikipedia’s standards, it is intrinsically neither. (COATRACK, WEIGHT, FORK = mud = POV = article's existence). Don't build a house on sand.--Matt Lewis (talk) 07:07, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
- [UNDENT]You're still hung up on the idea that the purpose of the article is to prove whether Obama is or was a Muslim. It's not. This article is, for one thing, where you turn on Wikipedia if you've heard that the the intersection of Obama's life and background with the Muslim faith is a matter of some controversy and you want to know what is known and what is not known. One of the things you've learned, apparently, is that Obama is denying things you think he might not even remember. Can't say I've reached the same conclusion. But just because we reach different conclusions doesn't mean either one of us has been misled. As best I can tell, the article informs but does not mislead. Andyvphil (talk) 14:32, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
- Well that's just not true - I've never once said I thought the purpose of the article was to prove Obama was a Muslim. The POV argument is actually about keeping mud in the news so it sticks - and I have certainly suggested that some people are happy with maintaining a negative association between Obama and Islam. I've never actually said it factually 'misleads'. Notability, weight and duplication have always been my principal reasons against this high-profile 'side article' - and I've repeated my points quite a lot now (here and on the Talk page).
- Regarding the 'POV fork' issue - certain editors clearly want to keep the outdated smears of Obama as visible as possible - via forking duplicate mud into a new article and coatracking it behind the Insight reporting issue, hanging up some other ‘balance’ for extra cover. The article has intrinsic negative values for Obama and for Muslims - and that suits them. That's where the POV is. These certain editors can be seen focusing on similar tactics throughout Wikipedia, to enforce their own favoured political balance. 'Prolifery and belligerence' is their trademark - and they are uninterested in consensus. To them - 99 editors can be involved in a 'cover up' to any one editor who shares their view. Arguments detailing what this encyclopedia is about, they ignore - because for them, Wikipedia is their own editorial. Most frustratingly perhaps, they often appear to never properly read other people's comments - even the ones directly responding to them.
- We need some better 'coatrack-style' rules or guidelines around here if you ask me - this article is exploiting and corrupting Wikipedia, and it's been up for an embarrassingly long time. --Matt Lewis (talk) 18:59, 23 January 2008 (UTC). --Matt Lewis (talk) 18:59, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
- I'm sorry for the lateness of my reply. I actually tend to ask myself what impression a reader will get from the articles I edit and had considered that here too. I imagine a person hearing from a friend or family member that "Obama's a Muslim" and then coming here to check it out. Hopefully the impression a reader would walk away with is that a conservative internet mag published an old rumor as fact, which was then picked up by major news and proven by other major news to be both old and incorrect. Anynobody 02:10, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
- To illustrate how I see the focus of this article, I created an illustration. We have to mention the incorrect allegations to show they were incorrect and that some of the media screwed up:
Anynobody 02:54, 25 January 2008 (UTC)- Is that an IQ test? Unfortunately WP just isn't the place for all the ambiguity that you refer to. --Matt Lewis (talk) 05:43, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
- No, it's a Venn diagram. But a bit too small for me to read. Andyvphil (talk) 14:37, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
- 'Media Accuracy = 'Mediocrity'!? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Matt Lewis (talk • contribs) 05:48, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
- Is that an IQ test? Unfortunately WP just isn't the place for all the ambiguity that you refer to. --Matt Lewis (talk) 05:43, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
- (The graphic is quite large, if you click on the image. I didn't want to eat up a bunch of page space. You can access the full version here too) Anynobody 02:23, 26 January 2008 (UTC)
- delete POV fork, merge any useful content to one of the related main articles. --Fredrick day (talk) 22:28, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
- Keep as a balanced, well-sourced, notable article. Bearian (talk) 13:51, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
- Delete. This is notable if Obama gets the Democratic nomination and is proven that it ruined his chance at the Presidency like the Swift Boat ads did for John Kerry. Or, it would be notable if it derailed his attempt to get the nomination for the Democratic Party. Simply put, this article is notable enough to be in the Barack Obama article, but not notable enough to be its own article. Just because it's a national news story on occasion does not make it noteworthy for an encyclopedia. It feels a bit like recent to me. --Son (talk) 14:46, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
- If a subject satisfies WP:N (multiple non-trivial coverage in RS) the criteria for existing as a separate article is "enough text in a given subtopic to merit its own entry".WP:SS Andyvphil (talk) 15:20, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
- Notability is an exclusive guideline, not an inclusive one. All crows are black ... - Revolving Bugbear 22:01, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
- Indeed, not everything that gets three mentions in the press is a suitable subject for a WP article. But "non-notability" has indeed been advanced as a reason for deleting this article. Do you agree? Andyvphil (talk) 00:00, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
- I agree that non-notability has been advanced as an argument. Perhaps what I should have said was that fulfilling some of the notability requirements does not necessarily merit inclusion. My mind isn't made up about this article. - Revolving Bugbear 00:07, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
- Indeed, not everything that gets three mentions in the press is a suitable subject for a WP article. But "non-notability" has indeed been advanced as a reason for deleting this article. Do you agree? Andyvphil (talk) 00:00, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
- Notability is an exclusive guideline, not an inclusive one. All crows are black ... - Revolving Bugbear 22:01, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
- If a subject satisfies WP:N (multiple non-trivial coverage in RS) the criteria for existing as a separate article is "enough text in a given subtopic to merit its own entry".WP:SS Andyvphil (talk) 15:20, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
- Keep I must admit that I started the article, under the name "Barack Obama Muslim rumor". I intended it to be a place where people who had questions about rumors they had heard about Senator Obama's background could find reliable information, on both the facts and the rumors themselves. I think this is still a legitimate reason and I hope the article has been useful. I can't exactly say that it is "encyclopedic" enough for WP however. Redddogg (talk) 16:48, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
- Well you are at least honest - though I can't see at all why you still want to keep it! Just in case new information appears? Do you really think your reason for creating it (let alone keeping it) is 'legitimate'? And in what way can any forum-style 'usefulness' actually outweigh the coatrack negatives of propagating and maintaining mud? Why couldn’t/can't you keep to a discussion on the relevant talk page? (like everyone else on WP has to). If this is now about a political forum, is it OK for me to ask you your politics? --Matt Lewis (talk) 21:57, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
- ...and why isn't having a place people can come for reliable information on a current event "'encyclopedic' enough" in an encyclopedia which covers current events? Andyvphil (talk) 23:53, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
- Point 5 of WP:NOT#INFO looks relevant to that point. Also take a look at Wikipedia:Recentism. -- ChrisO (talk) 00:02, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
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- Point 5 of WP:NOT#INFO: "... Routine news coverage and matters lacking encyclopedic substance, such as announcements, sports, gossip, and tabloid journalism, are not sufficient basis for an article. News outlets are reliable secondary sources when they practice competent journalistic reporting, however, and topics in the news may also be encyclopedic subjects when the sources are substantial." There are a substantial quantity of non-tabloid sources for this topic. Look at the ref list.
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- Point 5 of WP:NOT#INFO looks relevant to that point. Also take a look at Wikipedia:Recentism. -- ChrisO (talk) 00:02, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
- ...and why isn't having a place people can come for reliable information on a current event "'encyclopedic' enough" in an encyclopedia which covers current events? Andyvphil (talk) 23:53, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
- Well you are at least honest - though I can't see at all why you still want to keep it! Just in case new information appears? Do you really think your reason for creating it (let alone keeping it) is 'legitimate'? And in what way can any forum-style 'usefulness' actually outweigh the coatrack negatives of propagating and maintaining mud? Why couldn’t/can't you keep to a discussion on the relevant talk page? (like everyone else on WP has to). If this is now about a political forum, is it OK for me to ask you your politics? --Matt Lewis (talk) 21:57, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
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- Wikipedia:Recentism: "Recentism is not by itself an argument for article deletion — lack of attributability and notability are..." You may also want to consider the section "Benefits of recentist articles" particularly, "if we don't make sense of it today, someone else will struggle to make sense of it tomorrow."Andyvphil (talk) 15:29, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
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- Since Matt asked about my politics... I consider myself a progressive and think Obama might be a good president. I wouldn't start any false rumors about Senator Clinton however.... And for Andy.... there are still some people who are interested in getting accurate information on the things being said about Obama. Redddogg (talk) 03:25, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
- Thanks for answering the one rhetorical question. To me, that says quite a lot. 'still some people' says a lot too. People who can't trust the public's judgement often break the rules to deliver them The Truth. As for your Obama support, it's actually irrelevant to all the criticisms, including coatrack - though having looked through the consistently crummy history of the article, I just can't quite go for it, sorry. --Matt Lewis (talk) 06:47, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
- Since Matt asked about my politics... I consider myself a progressive and think Obama might be a good president. I wouldn't start any false rumors about Senator Clinton however.... And for Andy.... there are still some people who are interested in getting accurate information on the things being said about Obama. Redddogg (talk) 03:25, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
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- Delete there's no more a " media controversy" about him than the other candidates. The main articles are sufficient for each of them. DGG (talk) 06:33, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
- WP:SS:"...if one subtopic has much more text than another subtopic, that may be an indication that that subtopic should have its own page, with only a summary presented on the main page." The existance of a "main" (i.e., sub-) article need not be a measure of relative importance -- it's primarily a measure of the degree to which a topic has been developed. Rolling this content back into Barack Obama presidential campaign, 2008 will immediately result in a situation where spinning it off into a separate article is what "summary style" calls for. Andyvphil (talk) 15:44, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
- Comment - Without trying to hog space, here’s some more direct links that can be added to the above mentioned Wikipedia is not a... News report and Recentism, which I think are relevant to this whole issue (with their related aspect explained);
- On the article;
- NPOV fork – Covers how side articles should not be created to cover information that cannot find consensus in the main article.
- Coatrack - Covers how side issues should not be used to camouflage any biased reasons for a side article’s existence (or continual existence).
- Let the facts speak for themselves - Advises against over-description of facts that are already simple, well-covered and conclusive.
- Neutrality and Verifiability - Shows how an abundance of passable citations cannot negate certain neutrality issues.
- Notability is not temporary - Shows how past importance and/or the possibility of future importance does not amount to Notability.
- On AfD discussion;
- Assume Good Faith (inc essays) – How it shows ‘bad faith’ to negatively read (or misread) semantic, imperfect, miswritten or unclear details in someone’s comment - when it is reasonable to assume a positive meaning. Also - paranoia, and grouping people together.
- Under Gaming the system;
- (which lists how people can use various policies to actually force through their own bias)
- Refusal to 'get the point' - ‘Bad faith’ editors who ignore disproven points, repeating their chosen tacks.
- Playing policies against each other – Being addressed over a specific policy breach, and retorting with other policy.
- Wikilawyering - Putting letter before spirit of law, carefully misinterpreting policy, and using formal terms inappropriately.
- Stonewalling – Using gaming tactics to block or hold back something from occurring (consensus, a point being understood, a resolution, an event etc).
- A few are subsets to others (like NPOV), but I found these to be of more value when finding and reading them in isolation.--Matt Lewis (talk) 09:07, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
- WP:CFORK: "A point of view (POV) fork is a content fork deliberately created to avoid neutral point of view guidelines, often to avoid or highlight negative or positive viewpoints or facts." See Redddog's comment, above. WP:SS:"Sections of long articles should be spun off into their own articles leaving a summary in its place... When there is enough text in a given subtopic to merit its own entry, that text can be summarized from the present entry and a link is provided to the more detailed article." "Refusal to 'get the point' - ‘Bad faith’ editors who ignore disproven points(sic), repeating their chosen tacks." The idea that this article is a POV fork is an utterly disproven point -- it has been repeatedly pointed out that there is no difference in POV between it and the parent article. "In some cases, bad-faith editors have perpetuated disputes by sticking to an allegation or viewpoint long after it has been discredited, repeating it almost without end,..." E.g., "POV fork". Andyvphil (talk) 15:29, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
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- The negative POV is in over-exposing the mud - you ignored that point every time it's been made. No one has once suggested the article directly claims Obama is a Muslim - yet you constantly return to that.
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- The article has NO INTRINSIC balance - as mud is just conjecture that has a tendency to stick - especially when perpetually 'in the air'. It is impossible to give a weighted balance when conjecture (is he a muslim?) is the whole issue. The Insight story belongs in Insight - and Obama when he was a kid was a minor - so Obama being a 'liar' is no story either. These two are coats in the coatrack - they cannot sustain articles themselves. It all falls down.
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- Lack of Notability IMO has been absolutely proven - this collection of stories clearly do not warrant a dedicated page above the sections they already have in the main articles. Just because Obama's big himself, doesn't mean the 'Muslim story' has to be made a high profile, highly-linked side article. It especially can't be kept as one. 'Wikipedia is not a tabloid newspaper' (which is mentioned somewhere in 'What Wikipedia is not') - suggests that WP should avoid keeping sensational stories front page news - focusing on sensation over notability. Some people want that little picture of Obama and the word 'Muslim' in the corner of every front page. It's just keeping the mud in the air. So POVfork (as the story is perfectly happy elsewhere). --Matt Lewis (talk) 20:48, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
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- The idea that this obscure article "over exposes" the issue is such patent nonsense that I have indeed ignored it. Presumably Barack Obama presidential campaign, 2008 gets more readership than the child article, and if the summary there is replaced by this content it may get more readers, not less. The problem then will be that its length will justify, according to the MOS guideline WP:Summary Style, spinning it off into a separate article. If that development has been arbitrarily blocked by an admin who closes this AfD as "Delete" because he's counted noses rather than weighed arguments, the alternative is to delete well-cited relevant material to fit the Procrustian bed of the space that can be allotted to it if the other elements of the subject are not to appear undeveloped. Setting up this unnecessary conflict between WP:WEIGHT and the retention of well-cited NPOV content is a prescription for an edit war.
- Thus, the idea that "the story is perfectly happy elsewhere" is false and contrary to guideline, and anyway "So POVfork" doesn't remotely follow. Just as you haven't been able to point to anything in the actual essay to indicate that this article fits WP:COATRACK, you haven't been able to answer my proofs that this article doesn't fit the definition of WP:POVFORK. The problem is that you don't like the subject (WP:IDONTLIKEIT). And your statement "The article has NO INTRINSIC balance" is nothing more than a rejection of NPOV as an alternative to censorship. It hasn't escaped my attention that nowhere on this now long page has anyone pointed to any content of the article that is not written from the NPOV. I cannot deny that a host of editors have turned up who seem perfectly comfortable using "I don't like it" as their guideline, and closing admins rarely resist nosecount. So you may get your way. It won't reflect well on Wikipedia if you do. Andyvphil (talk) 00:06, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
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- You keep misrepresenting what I write. If anyone just reads your comments, they might think me (and my argument) foolish!
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- In actual fact, I wrote 'POV fork' here clearly to describe my 'mud will stick' argument - I have always connected the two. You are one of the biggest abusers of Assume Good Faith (in this case my clear meaning) I have come across on Wikipedia! When I repeat my arguments to answer your claims that I have 'yet to say anything', you ignore them, misrepresent me, and say I have 'yet to say anything'.
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- Regarding your arguments behind calling the over-exposure argument 'patent nonsense': Obviously, Obama's main articles would always get more readers than this article – but equality in the ascribed importance is the issue here. Both articles get lots of readers. When properly merged, fair coverage will exist next to all similarly important issues. It will no longer be unfairly elevated and prone to coatrack exploitation. If a complete merge proves difficult due to consensus – tough luck. You’ll have to work towards consensus like everyone else - rather than have it conveniently ‘built into’ the article subject. Lack of consensus in one article cannot be a reason for making, or keeping, another (see ‘NPOV fork’ link above). It has even been admitted that this was the reason for this articles creation! The article's creator, Redddogg, ignored consensus on coverage, and went with his POV on importance - creating a 'news style' article on the subject (Redddoggs first edit). If you read the Talk on it you will see comments were made for and against inclusion, and Redddogg declared he would create a new article as nothing was on the campaign page either - which he promptly did. That is clearly avoiding consensus. Since then it has been covered on the campaign page. How is this not a POV fork? Speculation of a 'rumour campaign' was Recent and Redddogg clearly got over-excited and made his page. Within half an hour he went on to fill detail into the Obama and Insight articles. Creating the new article was almost a childish 'first in' thing to do, as it wasn't at the time needed at all - Wikipedia had all the provisions for debate in place. It then developed into a 'bolthole' from inclusion-debate and consensus.
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- You are surely wrong to suggest that any new attempts for the article will be blocked once a ‘delete’ decision is made. If genuine consensus for it is found, it surely only has to survive any ensuing call for deletion. (I’m not 100% you did mean that, by the way – I found that part of your above comment confusing).
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- It was rather ‘bad faith’ of you to suggest deletion here could lead to an edit war. The conflict between ‘weight’ and ‘retention’ you describe is actually a decent description of Wikipedia! Why call it ‘unnecessary’ and a ‘prescription for an edit war ’? Each man or woman standing askance will simply have to accept the necessity of some form of ‘consensus’ eventually. One locked page I’ve seen aside, can I ask you if you fundamentally agree with that?
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- My interest here is actually less about the subject (which I'm entitled to care about, by the way) than the legalities I have kept arguing - so I deny IDONTLIKEIT - and you should resist on making your 'bad faith' assumptions. It’s hardly wise to pre-judge admins either.
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- There is a wider importance for me, however - I am interested in better guidelines, and specifically improving or expanding coatrack. I want an improved Wikipedia that isn't so easily exploited. The length of time this article has existed (over 3 months now) I personally think is an embarrassment. There are countless 'stories' that could be treated like this, but Wikipedia would surely become unmanageable with so many side articles for people to monitor. Decent editors would simply abandon WP to the lawless if this article became a benchmark which others took up and followed.
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- So the result of this AfD is specifically important to me. I spend a lot of my time here, and have various plans to spend more of my time, and I naturally need to see AfD's like this representing sense - as Wikipedia is a place where the day to day rules are kept to the minimum. My main worry (and reason for my persistence) is that the three months this article has now existed could play a part in keeping it up. --Matt Lewis (talk) 05:24, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
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- WP:CFORK:"A content fork is usually an unintentional creation of several separate articles all treating the same subject." There is no other article on this subject. Like many contributors to this vote it seems you like the names of policies and guidelines and essays better than their actual content. Andyvphil (talk) 00:06, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
- Distill and merge - This article exists primarily to support/promote an agenda: "awareness" of these controversies (something Andyvphil's comments about its "importance" confirms). The argument that the subject has outgrown its parent article says more about its overcoverage than its objective notability. (Aside to Andyvphil: Yelling at people for failing to explain their "votes" is about as constructive as what they just did. Give it a rest, please.) - JasonAQuest (talk) 01:17, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
- Actually, as between Obama and Clinton, I don't have a dog in that fight. My observation that the subject is of great practical importance because questions about Obama's electability due to race and Muslim name, etc. - supported by his having apparently experienced the Bradley Effect on his poll results - is simply that, an observation designed to counter assertions that the subject is non-notable. How it supports your mistaken idea that my interest in this subject lies in promoting awareness of the "controversy" is a mystery. I'm much more interested in it as a case study in the repeated unreliability of what Wikipedia calls "reliable sources", which have repeatedly accepted or promoted falsehoods and failed to ask the obvious, clarifying, question. Andyvphil (talk) 15:51, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
- Delete There is no evidence that there is any special "media controversy." The basic facts about the rumors, which was mentioned as the reason for this article in the first place, are covered in a section on Barack Obama presidential campaign, 2008. Steve Dufour (talk) 17:17, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
- Of course it's "covered" there, in summary style. The content of every calfed-off article must be "covered" in its parent article to comply with WP:SS and WP:CFORK. The effects of Obama's Muslim name, heritage and experience is the subject of much more coverage than is mentioned in the article's extensive ref list, so your argument is reduced to saying the child article should be deleted because the parent complies with policy. Ridiculous. Andyvphil (talk) 00:26, 26 January 2008 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
