Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Log/2007 July 21

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. Sr13 01:48, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] SonFire Ministries

SonFire Ministries (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) – (View AfD)

No claim of notability in article. 18 non-wiki ghits, none of which seem to be this group. Previously tagged with speedy deletion, but creator of article removed the tag. Creator of article subsequently blanked the article, but I'm not comfortable just prodding it given the previous speedy. Fabrictramp 23:38, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

• Delete: No references, but also seems to be advertising the group for people to come. - Kneel17 23:48, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
• Delete per WP:N and WP:V. VanTucky ^(talk) 00:40, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
• Speedy Delete Obvious, blatant self promotion.Ravenmasterq 02:13, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
• Delete as WP:SPAM. -- MarcoTolo 03:08, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
• Delete - founded in 2007, and no references, with an advertising tone - don't think it's going to meet notability. Tony Fox (arf!) review? 03:56, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
• Delete Well wide of the notability mark, and looks pretty spammy. Blueboy96 04:57, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
• Speedy Delete Article creators are not permitted to remove speedy tags, and blanking the article is assumed to be a request by the creator to speedy delete an article. And then there are the concerns listed above. Resolute 05:31, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
• Speedy Delete Clearly worthy both non-notable, and self-promoting. †Ðanieltiger45† ^{Talk to me} 23:23, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
• Speedy delete per above. Also, violates WP:SOAP. Bearian 17:52, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

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The result was Delete. Carlossuarez46 22:36, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] List of misleading place names

List of misleading place names (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) – (View AfD)

This page is redundant in concept with the set of pages Wikipedia:Multiple-place names; a minor point is that the Wikipedia-namespace page set is far more complete than the article being nominated for deletion. Also, the content of the nominated page is a collection of partial disambiguation page contents and is therefore more misleading of the state of ambiguity than Wikipedia:Multiple-place names, which provides links to disambiguation pages. User:Ceyockey (talk to me) 23:21, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

• Delete: per nom and as listcruft. - Kneel17 23:55, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
• Note: This debate has been included in the list of Lists-related deletions. -- Bduke 00:27, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
• Keep. I note that this article has had over 500 edits and has existed for two years. I think we need rather good reasons to delete it and these have not been given. The problem with something in the Wikipedia name space such as Wikipedia:Multiple-place names is that most general readers will not find it. --Bduke 00:29, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

Comment But in the same token, what's the point of using this article when most of the time you are redirected to a disambiguation page? Or are able to reach it after reaching the main article? When would a normal reader come in contact with this unless they purposefully search for the article? - Kneel17 00:44, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

A quick look at a few links suggests that "most of the time you are redirected to a disambiguation page" is exaggerating the matter. I would guess that in some cases hitting the search button in WP would bring the reader to this page. Note that I have had nothing to do with this page. However, as I noted, lots of editors have over a long period of time, and I'm inclined to trust their judgement. Deleting this would not really improve Wikipedia and it does not harm the project. It is not against policy. --Bduke 01:07, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

Comment. The nominated article, List of misleading place names, has been around since June 2005. The set of pages that I suggest make this nominated article unnecessary/redundant, Wikipedia:Multiple-place names, has been around since Sept 2002. --User:Ceyockey (talk to me) 02:07, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

• Delete. This would be a very hard to verify list, seeing as "Misleading" would be very difficult to agree on a definition for. I mean, is it "misleading" that neither Saginaw, Michigan nor Bay City, Michigan are actually on Saginaw Bay? Is it "misleading" that Michigan has an Omer and a Homer? Ten Pound Hammer • ^{(((Broken clamshells • Otter chirps)))} 01:12, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
• Delete misleading is a very subjective thing. What's misleading to somebody may not be misleading to somebody else, so I think this is pretty much WP:OR Corpx 03:15, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
• Delete; I was planning on nominating this list myself, on the basis that this is Original Research; the intro states "place names that are likely to mislead", which is a subjective criterion. How misleading is Jupiter, Florida for example? Has anyone ever driven through Jupiter, Florida and believed they were on the planet Jupiter, due to the "misleading" name? Or has anyone gone to Italy, Texas hoping to see the Colosseum, because they were misled? Also "other places that are much better known", where do we draw the line at how much better known the other places have to be? More original research is needed to decide. Slightly interesting, but will never be anything but WP:OR. Masaruemoto 03:21, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
• Comment It's neither here nor there ~ Infrangible 03:26, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
• Delete as hopeless WP:OR. I wish I could save this article from itself, somehow, by tweaking the scope or whatnot, but I can't see how it would work. It's a fun idea for a list, it just isn't encyclopedic. Maybe some sort of geography wiki could adopt it. --Dhartung | Talk 06:48, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
• Delete as worthless crap. Bigdaddy1981 08:45, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
• Delete I was hoping I'd like this, but it's essentially a list of towns with "famous names". I agree with Masaruemoto on this one, other than the idea that it is even "slightly" interesting. I did drive through Jupiter, Florida, and saw a big red spot, their name for their red light district. Mandsford 00:50, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
• Delete per above; it's poorly worded. Bearian 19:50, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
• Delete per nom., and as WP:OR and listcruft.--JayJasper 15:32, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

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The result was Delete. Most comments seem to suggest that the article should not exist in its present form. I am happy to undeleted and userfy in someone's sandbox for improvement, categorization or merger. JodyB _{yak, yak, yak} 13:13, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] List of Folk-blues musicians

List of Folk-blues musicians (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) – (View AfD)

Appears to violate WP:NOT#LINK (specifically item 2). I am not saying it may be considered interesting or useful, but it is not what an encyclopedia is, per policy. User:Ceyockey (talk to me) 23:27, 21 July 2007 (UTC) (page created to complete AFD nomination by User:Pharmboy)

• Note: This debate has been included in the list of Lists-related deletions. -- Bduke 00:30, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
• Note: This debate has been included in the list of Bands and musicians-related deletions. -- Bduke 00:31, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
• Delete Listcruft, listcruft, listcruft. Blueboy96 00:45, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

• Delete: This list is already a Category: Category:Folk-blues musicians, which is what it should remain as. Should be Speedy under WP:CSD#A3. I previously just prodded List of Electric blues musicians. Perhaps somebody can link an AfD there. See also List of Juke Joint blues musicians, List of New Orleans blues musicians, List of New York blues musicians, List of Jazz blues musicians, List of Boogie-Woogie musicians, List of Slide guitarists, List of East Coast blues musicians, List of West Coast blues musicians, List of Jump blues musicians, List of Contemporary blues musicians, List of Detroit blues musicians, List of Swamp blues musicians, List of Harmonica blues musicians, List of Blues revival musicians, List of Urban blues musicians, List of Delta blues musicians, List of Chicago blues musicians, List of Blues-rock musicians and probably more created by the User:Mind meal. Speedy delete them all, please, and most especially Lists of blues musicians by genre, but not before deleting all of the list on that list of list cruft. Hu 01:11, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
• Yeah, they are all A3s. Speedy delete. MER-C 02:06, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment the way that CSD#G3 is written would imply that hundreds of existing list articles are potentially speedy deletable. Could the article be "saved" by adding information for each musician, such as birth date/death date and a "known for" infobit. --User:Ceyockey (talk to me) 02:14, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

I suppose so (at least from speedy deletion), but in the state I saw them there was nothing but lists of internal links, headings and templates. An ordinary list would have some sort of lead (thus not being speediable) that would define its scope. Either way, should be deleted because it's original research to classify artists by genre unless it is established otherwise by reliable third parties. MER-C 05:14, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

All Music Guide is reliable. Amazon.com, Barnes & Noble, Yahoo, Artist Direct, MSN...they all use their information for categorization purposes. Now that references have been added, the idea that these articles still should be deleted is extremely weak. I hope that people's concerns have been addressed, because as I said below there was no WP:OR that went into the inclusion of even one artist on any given list. They were all referenced. Furthermore, each list appears with the corresponding category I in most cases created. This serves to give broader coverage of musicians in these genres, especially those who do not yet have articles and thus cannot be categorized. What a thankless job. (Mind meal 05:23, 22 July 2007 (UTC))

• Delete Categorizing musicians into genres is WP:OR unless explicitly stated somewhere, and even then there'll be conflicts unless the artist themselves says it. Corpx 03:13, 22 July 2007 (UTC) I still think this should be deleted because this list is no more useful than the category Corpx 09:12, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

I respectfully disagree. Already 5 musicians that cannot be categorized appear there, and the same can be said of all the other lists mentioned. Each list took a lot of time and effort to compile. If we are to delete them all, at least consider respecting my contributions enough not to insert WP:POV votes about "usefulness". Please see Wp:lists#Purpose_of_lists, especially the development section. These lists are like any other, and I'm still trying to figure out why my work specifically was targeted in this case. (Mind meal 09:24, 22 July 2007 (UTC))

• Keep This is ridiculous. Musicians perform in genres. Looks like you lost anyway. If there is someone inappropriately listed in a genre, then say so. Otherwise, you assume both original research and inaccuracy. I challenge everyone supporting deletion to render a name that does not belong in a list. Anyone? How is placing musicians in their appropriate genres wrong? That takes the cake.(Mind meal 04:18, 22 July 2007 (UTC))

• Where does it say that these artists belong in this category? Corpx 04:25, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

Keep I agree. Izzy007 (talk · contribs)

Delete indiscriminant collection of info. This could be 30 megs and not cover a third of them. Use a category. This page does not qualify for speedy deletion. From WP:LISTS: "Lists should always include unambiguous statements of membership criteria based on definitions made by reputable sources, especially in difficult or contentious topics", this criteria is far to ambiguous and likely to yield contrary sources. Until(1 == 2) 04:26, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

References are being added as we speak. You will find no discrepency. None of this was WP:OR, for each musician was carefully referenced. If the problem was with lack of references, then the articles should have been tagged with an appropriate tag. Now that the articles are referenced, I believe there is even less ground for deletion of any sort. (Mind meal 04:38, 22 July 2007 (UTC))

I sure hope that people won't just be stubborn here and will change votes accordingly. I know many of you thought you were correct listing these lists for speedy deletion, something adminsitrators have not agreed with you about. Surely with references you are not to be mean-spirited and still vote for deletion? That would really be an ugly thing to do after all the work i put into these. This whole group grew silent once I added references and the speedy deletion tags disappeared. So as they stand now, what are the argument for deleting them? It makes no sense now. I really don't understand the motives of some users. (Mind meal 08:10, 22 July 2007 (UTC))

A link to a Wikipedia article is not a reference. Until(1 == 2) 13:42, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

• Keep : Please sample a few lists from Category:Lists of musicians by genre and try to tell the fundamental difference between them and List of Folk-blues musicians. The only difference I find is that this list is still fresh, and thus rather partial at present. This is no reason to delete it. Lior 09:14, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

• rename and fuse It has come to my attention that folk blues is another way of saying country blues, If you all read the articlecountry blues you will find a list of guitarists already there, if we create a list of country blues guitarist, add it to the country blues article and then redirect anyone looking for a list of folk blues guitarists to the list of country blues article (much like if you type folk blues in the search engine you'll get country blues) that way the article won't look so incomplete because they'll be more guitarists there and country and folk blues are pretty much the same thing.

If this does go ahead we can all work together so we don't merely have a list of internal links that goes against the poicy of wikipedia (and annoys everyone with slow internet who has to click on every link!) by adding a small bit of information to each guitarist. --Mikeoman 09:54, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

Country blues is more or less guitar-driven, though there are exceptions, ie. some pianists and singers. Folk-blues has many instruments, like guitar, banjo, piano, harmonica and mandolin. (Mind meal 10:36, 22 July 2007 (UTC))

• Delete with reluctance. I'm not unsympathetic with the argumants in favor but there are some problems with assigning particular musicians to particular genres. Just noting the first entry on the list, John Fahey certainly played some things which might be called "folk-blues" but he also played stuff that some would class "Musique concrète" and he himself called his genre "American primitive" (reference provided upon request). People are likely to raise similar arguments about almost anyone on the list. The consequence of all this is a never ending creation of more and more genres with less and less distinction between them. better to have fewer more broadly defined catagories.Darrell Wheeler 12:51, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
• Delete, reluctantly. Here I think Mind meal's got a good idea, but not the right way to go about it. We can't just crib from a copyrighted source and call it ours. Unfortunately, some of these lists and categories are so specific that they need backup, and so there's no other easy way to get this information out. So I say delete for now, but I'm not prejudiced against a further re-creation with a different structure.--Mike Selinker 13:38, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
• Keep, yes, emphatically Yes, there are paths to finding various artists, e.g., allmusic.com. However, the List is valuable. The list is easier and faster to search through than other lists. Links are faster to download, than, say, www.allmusic.com. There are many genres of music, so it is not appropriate to bemoan the number of lists of types of musicians. Dogru144 15:08, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

The reasoning is not logical. The categories function as better lists because articles are added to the categories by editing the articles themselves, to add the category, which is to say that the editing occurs in one place. Hu 16:39, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

• Delete. Ought to be a category, not a list. SethTisue 15:58, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
• Categorize It would be more appropriate to have those with articles being put into an category instead of a separate list.--JForget 16:20, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

It already is a category. Hu 16:33, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

• Delete. Whenever a category exists that is virtually identical to a list article, the list article should be deleted, as categories are much easier to maintain. Realkyhick 17:15, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
• Delete. Obvious since I nominated it. It should be a category, not an article, and all the other lists that are similar should follow suit. Pharmboy 17:43, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
• Delete and Categorize as per all of the above. It would be more appropriate to split it into a category. Greg Jones II 17:59, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
• Keep, short-term. First, this list could never be a cat. simply based on the fact that you can only categorize existing articles. A list can include items that don't (and unfortunately may never) have an article on WP. Second, any list of persons would suffer from the same downfalls that are pointed out here. I agree that there should be a brief description after each item, though. The third issue is the length of this list, which I believe is mostly attributable to its age. Unfortunately I do not know enough about this particular topic to know if it can ever be populated. So what to do; The existance of red-link or unlinked (unlinkable) items and a heading rules out both WP:NOT#LINK andWP:CSD#A3. This article (even with recent changes) could still be deleted under WP:OR. However, in a sample 500 lists of people only about 1/3 have any sources and several of those would be considered insufficient. To delete one on this bases means to delete many, many lists. I hope that everyone here would prefer simple citations as opposed to deletion. Lastly, if the article does not grow it could be deleted by WP:N. To prove this would take time. So...The article should be kept to see if it can grow and be sourced. If it does then there is no argument against it. If it does not it should be deleted using WP:OR orWP:N. (Sampm 20:37, 22 July 2007 (UTC))

This list is already a category. The non-existing articles argument you and the creator advance is bogus because there are other places to place such requests, such as WP:MUSICIAN. Further, if you know the person is notable enough, then just create the article yourself. Another bogus argument advanced is that there are other lists that should be deleted but aren't, so let's violate policy and keep this one too. Name the other lists and we'll nominate them for deletion too. Hu 23:13, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

• I agree, if a musician cannot at least have a stub with some reasonable reference then I don't see why it belongs on a list anyways. Until(1 == 2) 23:29, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

• Wikipedia still has hundreds of red links about non-current mainstream pop musicians with notability that they can be found in most music encyclopedias covering their type of music, and several individual musicians that I'm familiar with that have entire books published devoted to them. I am one of the many editors who has been gradually chipping away at the red links and stublets for over 5 years. Don't mistake any current deficits of coverage for inherent lack of notability. -- Infrogmation 00:15, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

• Note: Please see the parallel nomination Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of Electric blues musicians that has 31 similar articles listed for deletion. Hu 23:06, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
• Keep. Such lists still have value in addition to categories, especially in the red links showing where Wikipedia still has many very serious gaps. -- Infrogmation 00:09, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

The red links argument for lists is bogus. A place like Wikipedia:WikiProject Musicians is the appropriate place to request articles. Hu 00:16, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

Gosh should I add 600 names there now? Or should I kick myself for not having added 5,000 names there a few years ago? -- Infrogmation 00:30, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

I just took a look there for a first time in a while. and noted that there are requests for expansion as well. My numbers of things I apparently need to list there was far too modest. I think I could curtail all other activities in Wikimedia projects for a month or so to do nothing but list areas we need work on. I rather think you are vastly overestimating the completeness of Wikipedia. There are many areas of specialized knowledge-- including many significant musical generas-- where we are still in as incomplete a state as we were with, say, world leaders back in 2002. -- Infrogmation 00:34, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

Good idea. (Not the kicking, no good kicking yourself). Now that you pointed out that Wikipedia is not complete, we are no further down the road, and the red links argument for lists is still bogus. Hu 01:14, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

• Comment There is much discussion above about use of a category versus a list. Each article-grouping method has advantages and disadvantages; see Wikipedia:Categories, lists, and series boxes for an in-depth discussion of this. --User:Ceyockey (talk to me) 01:31, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

• Comment I don't think it should be deleted, however, I am not so much for it. Categorization if it gets too detailed, can be misleading, and many of the artists aren't streotypes anyway. For me, blues is just blues, and no more detailed categorization is necessary. --Sumori 04:13, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

Your objections have been heeded, however, there has been no comment on the addition of short biographical content. It seems to me that the difference between some disputed lists and those not yet disputed is that factor. If adding such info would save this list then lets do it. If it would not then nearly all lists in this category and its subcats should be nominated. I'm not saying we should violate policy. My point is that many other lists have survived so there must be some redeeming factor or something different about this list. If there is a difference what is it? If there is not a difference then why have those lists survived? Have they just failed to be nominated? (Sampm 14:33, 23 July 2007 (UTC))

• Move all to Sandboxes, delete from categories until ready. What Mind meal is doing with List of Electric blues musicians seems to be very good. But the rest can't stay as content until they're improved in the same way. So I'd suggest moving them to sandboxes as works in progress, and when they're ready, move them out to the main encyclopedic space, where I think they'll pass any AfDs.--Mike Selinker 15:39, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
• Delete, sadly, and create a category instead. Also, it's missing some of the living greats of the genre like Pete Seeger and Nick Katzman, and even the marginally notable like Tom Winslow and Thomasina Winslow. Bearian 17:56, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
• Keep for now. Give Mind meal a little time to make improvements to the list as he has with List of Electric blues musicians. Should this take more than few days to accomplish, then temporarily move the material to sandboxes, per Mike Selinker.--JayJasper 20:59, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
• Categorize Isn't this the reason we have categories? I  ^{(said) (did)} 20:38, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
• Merge into List of blues musicians. There are currently only 16 names on this list, and thus would not overwhelm the current list of blues musicians, which is already structured into sub-genres; a "folk-blues" section would seem to make a perfect addition to that list. Claims of original research are misplaced when All Music Guide and plenty of other reliable sources can be used to determine who belongs in this list. By the way, if "folk blues" is not the same as "country blues", then perhaps Folk blues should not be a redirect to Country blues. DHowell 22:15, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

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The result was deleted by Krimpet. One 20:51, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Craig Malisow

Craig Malisow (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) – (View AfD)

Article was originally speedied but I think it may have some notability although the writing is poor. I rather the community decide if this one passes WP:N.JodyB _{yak, yak, yak} 22:25, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Comment Has Craig Malisow won any awards for his writing? (I sure hope he didn't write THAT!) or written for a national paper? --Malcolmxl5 22:41, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Well, since "He is famous and smart.", I suppose we'd better keep the article.... ROTFL. Delete - no (legitimate) claim of notability (unless you count "is a big-time reporter"). While we can verify that Mr. Malisow is a reporter, I haven't been able to find any valid WP:N reasons to keep. -- MarcoTolo 22:52, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

• Delete - As I read the article I could not help laughing. "He is famous and smart," "Craig Malisow is a big-time reporter." Certainly does not appear notable per WP:BIO. So I believe we should delete this article and by aideu to this "famous and smart" "big-time" reporter. --Tλε Rαnδom Eδιτor (ταlκ) 23:23, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

*Delete. Stating that someone is a "famous and smart" "big time reporter" does not make them notable - they have to have already been notable. He is not very famous and deleted! Bart133 ^{(t) (c)} 23:35, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

• Delete unless notability can be established and article is cleaned up per comment below. Bart133 ^{(t) (c)} 23:50, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
• Comment Be sure you look at the links. This guy was busted because his newspaper was doing a piece on internet drug sales. It may make the article notable if re-written. JodyB _{yak, yak, yak} 23:48, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Comment I did look at the links - but unless I'm missing something, I'm still not convinced that the subject himself is notable (there may also be WP:BLP issues). If the DEA incident had significant ramifications beyond Mr. Malisow getting arrested, perhaps a citation in the Online pharmacy article makes sense? -- MarcoTolo 00:07, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

• Delete Not notable. NHRHS2010 ^Talk 01:46, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
• Delete this is not an acceptable stub. No prejudice against a re-creation of a real article. DGG (talk) 01:56, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
• DeleteThough someone should probably move it to Uncyclopedia just for a laugh.Ravenmasterq 02:16, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
• Delete Article looks like was written by a fan or something, or looks like an advert and poorly written as well. In addition, fails WP:BIO--JForget 16:23, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

Comment

Sorry, Random Editor Person...when you wrote this: "So I believe we should delete this article and by aideu to this "famous and smart" "big-time" reporter," did you mean, "...and bid adieu..."? I have never heard the other phrasing/spelling. Maybe it means something that I don't know, and maybe I am misunderstanding, so if that is the case, then I apologize. I may be confused. As for the rest of the comments, I am sorry, I am probably not as good as a writer as all of you people. I guess I do not know how to write it better. Maybe a better writer could look at Craig's material, and write a better article about him? I know I do not do it justice. Sorry about that. This is my first-ever entry, and I am trying to make it acceptable. Thank you for all your help and patience and assistance and suggestions.SLOW93 20:41, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

• Delete. Fails WP:BIO. One 20:50, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

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The result was delete. Sr13 01:50, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Scott Harper

Scott Harper (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) – (View AfD)

Minor news flap, consequences minor, forgotten. Clear-cut WP:BLP1E candidate. Page now serves to aggregate further document minor legal whatnots of subject, of precipitously lesser news value than the reason the article exists to begin with. Dhartung | Talk 22:00, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

• Delete The conflicting claims are entirely OR. This event led to a 4-minute delay of game. Hardly worth an article in a newspaper - not worth an article here. The arguments in the previous AfD are not very compelling. the_undertow ^talk 22:09, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
• Delete There's no long-term historic notability here. --Malcolmxl5 22:11, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
• Delete per nom. Although the video of the incident was briefly entertaining, this article is unwarranted. —Travis^talk 22:12, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
• Delete per above. He's had his 15 minutes of fame. Possible ongoing litigation. Bearian 23:27, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
• Delete per WP:NOT#NEWS - No historic notability Corpx 03:12, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
• Delete - that definitely doesn't look to meet WP:BLP, especially the long bit about being the "true story" that's not got any sources. Notability is very thin. Tony Fox (arf!) review? 04:03, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
• Delete as a non-notable individual despite the high coverage of his misadventure. It may be briefly mentionned in the Yankees Stadium article though.JForget 16:25, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

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The result was delete. Sr13 01:52, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] John 14:6

John 14:6 (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) – (View AfD)

A single bible verse without verifiable citation, which appears to have been written only to give a sermon on its meaning (or rather what it means to the author). While I have no doubt there are individual bible passages that are so quoted and prevalent in western civilization that they deserve a wikipedia article analyzing their historical significance...this article and this passage are not even attempting to be such. WP:CITE, WP:V, WP:NOR and underlying POV Markeer 21:32, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

• I don't want to go to Hell, but Delete This article cites no sources, so it is entirely OR. The words are weasley, the interpretations are not verified, and I don't see any 3rd parties referencing this passage, thus making it notable. Regardless of the subject, the article as it stands, does not satisfy requirements for inclusion. Amen. the_undertow ^talk 21:41, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
• Delete per nominator's comments. This is not sufficiently backed by reliable, independent sources and is basically comprised entirely of OR. VanTucky ^(talk) 22:17, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
• Delete Amen brother The_undertow, or if you are a women, sister. I have to agree no Reliable sources, and it is also quite POV. --Tλε Rαnδom Eδιτor (ταlκ) 23:19, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
• Delete, amen. This article takes sides in what was a major dispute in theology c. 1530. Bearian 23:30, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
• Weak delete with no precedent against re-creation. This is a famous verse, the basis of theological debate for centuries before, and after, 1530. Like all such texts, there is an enormous literature, both from a purely theological and from a history of religion perspective. But the article does not reflect it, and offers little to build upon. So far from being POV, it ignores all the discussion and all the POVs, and is therefore meaningless in an encyclopedic sense.DGG (talk) 02:17, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
• Delete - DGG has it about right here - it's not a very good article at all, but could probably *be* one down the road, if someone takes the time to develop it with good critical sources, et al. Hallelujah, and all that. Tony Fox (arf!) review? 04:07, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
• Delete as biblecruft. 70.55.91.131 08:15, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
• Delete Needs quite a bit better interpretation than something out of any Christian theology book.Ravenmasterq 18:13, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

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The result was delete. Sr13 01:57, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] List of prominent mukulathor

List of prominent mukulathor (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) – (View AfD)

Delete per WP is not a directory of prominent people from a religion/caste. This would be the equivalent of List of prominent Methodists or something similar. Also, none of these entries are cited. A category would suffice if any of these people were notable enough to have their own article, but they're not. Corpx 21:31, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

• Delete 'Prominent' is far too subjective to warrant a list. As many people are affiliated with a particular religion, a similar list of Christians, Buddhists, or Muslims would be never-ending. the_undertow ^talk 21:35, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
• Delete: per above. - Kneel17 23:19, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
• Delete, unsourced, turn it into a category. Corvus cornix 04:17, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
• Merge into Mukkulathor article, then delete. Mandsford 00:52, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
• Delete per previous editors' reasoning. Merge only "Freedom fighters" section, if necessary. It is the only section containing substance and may be relevant to the general Mukulathor article. --Evb-wiki 01:05, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

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The result was delete. --Coredesat 03:18, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Four Pillars of Alexander Hamilton

Four Pillars of Alexander Hamilton (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) – (View AfD)

The title of this article is a metaphor which the author seems to have invented, and which he intensely overworks. Hamilton's financial program is covered under Alexander Hamilton, without the apologetic here. Delete as neologism. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 21:28, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

• Delete as original research and one person's opinion. Bearian 23:31, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
• 'delete as essay. More detailed articles on Hamilton's policy are probably needed, but this is not the way to go about them. DGG (talk) 02:02, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
• Keep I think this could be kept if its removed of the four pillars stuff and renamed to something like "Alexander Hamilton's Proposals" or something of that sort. Just replace the intro paragraph with a couple of lines and I think its good. The actual content of the article is pretty solid Corpx 03:10, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
• Delete unless thoroughly reworked as an expansion of Alexander Hamilton#Secretary of the Treasury: 1789–1795. For one thing, there were five proposals. For another, I can find no reliable source for the "four pillars" trope, or for any other number of pillars. Finally, we already have articles on three of Hamilton's notable reports (I assume there were many, it's just that these were controversial). What we need is two more articles on the missing reports, and an article that ties them together in an historical context, not as stealth policy-pushing. --Dhartung | Talk 07:00, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
• Delete as above. Katherine Tredwell 22:54, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
• Delete I was unable to find any sources at all for this. Seems to be or-ish. Pats Sox Princess 02:37, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

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The result was delete. Sr13 01:59, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] List of Saini last names

List of Saini last names (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) – (View AfD)

Delete per WP:NOT#DIRECTORY as in WP is not a directory (of Indian last names) Corpx 21:23, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

• Delete Arbitrary list with no usefulness. the_undertow ^talk 21:43, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
• Delete per above and as listcruft. Bearian 23:33, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
• Merge into Saini caste article. Mandsford 00:54, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
• Delete per nom. There is no substance to merge. --Evb-wiki 01:34, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

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The result was deleted neologism. DS 22:01, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Chofu (poetry form)

Wikipedia is not a place for neologisms or other new creations, and the website listed appears to be a self-publishing place. Nyttend 21:04, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

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The result was no consensus to delete; sources were added. JodyB _{yak, yak, yak} 13:20, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Bodhin Kjolhede

Bodhin Kjolhede (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) – (View AfD)

Appears to fail WP:BIO and WP:NOTABILITY. -WarthogDemon 20:34, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

• Weak keep as it needs cites, but appears to be notable as leader of a zen monastery, if it can be verified. Bearian 23:34, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
• Keep: Sure the article does need work, but I've been able to find quite a few articles on him on Google, and he's written a few articles and an audio-book. References just need to be added and cited. - Kneel17 23:36, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
• Delete, being the head of a Zen Monastery is no more notable than being the pastor of the church next door to my house. Corvus cornix 04:18, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
• Delete when my Priest and Deacons get their own articles, so does this guy. Pats Sox Princess 02:39, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
• Comment I've added a couple of supporting references, but it is difficult to find material on-line that speaks about Roshi Kjolhede as required by WP:BIO; the vast majority of available material relates to publications that he has authored as opposed to being about him. --User:Ceyockey (talk to me) 10:51, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
• Weak delete per nom. It is not clear what actually makes this gentleman "worthy of notice". --Evb-wiki 11:52, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

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The result was delete. WjBscribe 07:04, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Siew Ooi

Siew Ooi (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) – (View AfD)

Biography with no sources and no few Google or Dogpile hits. Per WP:BIO and WP:MUSIC. Author removed {{prod}}. —Travis^talk 20:09, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

• Speedy G1 Rackabello 20:34, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
• keep or hopefully, someone out there would remember the guy and write more about him. He is referenced a few times already on wikipedia though, and I'm not altogether qualified to be able to slot this guy in the right area of wikipedia - thats why I made the article a stub. Maybe someone will be able to reference ARIA charts and pick up the controversial pieces off the net on the words to that song - thoughts? --Rdpaperclip 03:37, 22 July 2007 (UTC) T3Smile (talk • contribs • logs) and Rdpaperclip (talk • contribs • logs) - Blocked as sockpuppets. See SSP Achidiac -- Jreferee t/c 15:59, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
• Delete as nonnotable. I found about 350 low-quality google hits - nothing to serve as reliable sources about him. Shalom ^Hello 04:04, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

Nearly all of those aren't this Siew Ooi. I found an Intel employee and a Boon-Siew Ooi who is a university professor, for example. After digging deeper, I was able to find a handful of hits: [1] [2] —Travis^talk 13:46, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

• Delete, non-notable producer for a one-hit wonder's 12-year-old song. Corvus cornix 04:23, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
• weak keep, if considered a keep it may have to be categorised somewhere...Corvus, would an article about "One Hit Wonders" and then categorise those hits to countries be a good idea? I think your take on the 12-year-old song is funny. I hated the song :) I could start up the article but would need a lot of help from lots of people. I know where I can get the List of Australian one hit wonders though. Then perhaps, we could mention this guy in there?--T3Smile 16:05, 22 July 2007 (UTC) Update - found one hit wonders but only reference was the 20 to 1 TV show that lists "one hit wonders" of the world according to a commercial poll, not according to the ARIA charts. I think I found an opportunity to add some verifiable info on Australian one hit wonders, maybe after my thesis work on computer pioneers. Where is Glenn A. Baker when you need him?--T3Smile 16:10, 22 July 2007 (UTC) T3Smile (talk • contribs • logs) and Rdpaperclip (talk • contribs • logs) - Blocked as sockpuppets. See SSP Achidiac -- Jreferee t/c 15:59, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
• Delete Notability cannot be established, and the author has not provided references. I am not necessarily stating that he is not notable. With proper referencing this could perhaps be established, but as others have stated there are no reliable third party sources. (Mind meal 22:26, 25 July 2007 (UTC))

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The result was merge and redirect per the unanimous consensus. Early non-admin closure. Shalom ^Hello 04:13, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Delta Air Lines Flight 2315

Delta Air Lines Flight 2315 (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) – (View AfD)

This is not a notable aviation incident. – Zntrip 20:02, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

• Agree - All the notable data could be covered by expanding the mention in the Flight 175 article. Regards, Lynbarn 20:09, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
• Delete Merge and redirect per Akradecki. Next we will be getting articles on the flights that took off before and after flight 175. Near misses are generally not notable. Trusilver 20:15, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
• Delete Merge and redirect per comments per nom and Tuesilver. —Travis^talk 20:45, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
• Merge and redirect to United Airlines flight 175. AKRadecki^Speaketh 21:15, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
• Merge and redirect to United Airlines flight 175 per Lynbarn Lipsticked Pig 21:35, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
• Merge and redirect to United Airlines flight 175. I'm surprised it lasted this long, given there are no in-article sources whatsoever. Had no project tag, so that's probably a big reason it's been missed.

- BillCJ 22:05, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

• Merge as suggested by three comments above.--JForget 22:16, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

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The result was delete as copyvio of http://sunfairrun.com/xccoach.html. W.marsh 20:23, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Coach Phil English

Coach Phil English (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) – (View AfD)

Unsourced biography of a non-notable high-school level track coach. Fails WP:BIO. Trusilver 19:58, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

• Delete per nom. Also lack context. Where is the alleged school? --Evb-wiki 20:10, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
• Strong delete. I think there's just enough assertion of notability that I didn't speedy-delete it. However, I don't think it satisfies WP:BIO (not a top-level amateur coach and no independent sources). A Google search didn't turn up anything that was primarily about him, other than a speaker bio at a conference. —C.Fred (talk) 20:21, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

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The result was delete. Jaranda ^{wat's sup} 22:52, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Jim Schembri

Jim Schembri (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) – (View AfD)

Non-notable, autobiographical entry. While he does have some media links, that's pretty much only because he's a journalist: they usually do get such links. Severe WP:HOLE issues. The Evil Spartan 19:54, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

• Delete Not notable - and mostly edited by a user named Jimschembri... Hm... Wonder who that could be? TruthGal 21:15, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

• Delete. I tagged it to verify and for stubs. I'm not sure he's notable, and I did not pick up on the COI. Duh. Bearian 23:23, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

• Note: This debate has been included in the list of Australia-related deletions. -- Canley 05:37, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

• Keep Prominent and notable Melbourne-based journalist and film critic, long-time writer for The Age. Has 44,500 google hits. Any perceived COI/POV can be dealt with on the article page/article talk page.Melburnian 08:51, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
• Delete - the majority of the Google hits are for online forums and articles by him; not the required reliable third-party sources about him. Gordonofcartoon 13:05, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
• Keep Per Melbournian. Twenty Years 13:38, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
• Comment - could those supporting Keep show us RS demonstrating his notability? Mentions in books, newspapers, press awards, etc? Gordonofcartoon 14:06, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
• Comment - Amazon.com shows that Schembri is an internationally published author of young adult books, and his writings on film have been widely cited in numerous books. --Canley 04:55, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
• Conditional keep - prominent and notable but suffering from COI edits. Keep pending cleanup by independent editors. Dbromage 05:13, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
• Delete based on only reference to date being a letter to the editor, albeit from George Miller (apparently) it still doesn't meet my reading of WP:RS. I agree with the comment by Gordon, where are the reliable sources?Garrie 06:10, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

Comment - 6,150 articles[3] on the web site of The Age, the major daily newspaper in Melbourne which does not put all its articles online, including 767[4] news section articles and 433[5] op-ed pieces plus all the movie and TV reviews. A further 168[6] in the Sydney Morning Herald. 4 recent articles plus one other mention from the last month on Google News.[7] 21 citations in Google Scholar.[8] And the non-self published books going back to at least 1994 mentioned by Canley, most of which are in the State Library of Victoria[9] and National Library of Australia[10] ("permanent collections of several ... internationally significant libraries" - WP:BIO). I do not see notability as an issue but the autobiographical/COI nature of the article certainly is. However this can be cleaned up by independent editors. Dbromage 06:36, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

The difficulty is, though, what can be said about him, when nothing reliably sourced is written about him? Certainly any kind of analysis of his review style/content would be OR. BTW, he appears not to be taking WP:COI seriously; I just had to revert his removal of the tags and reinstatement of the COI material. Gordonofcartoon 11:03, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

• Weak Delete, appears to be prolific, but there seems to be very little material written about him, as opposed to by him. In the absence of reliable sources... (the COI doesn't help either) Lankiveil 12:36, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

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The result was redirect to Dr. Phil (TV series)#Spoofs. I think the little blurb on the muppet is sufficient. Sr13 02:06, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Dr. Feel

Dr. Feel (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) – (View AfD)

Non-notable character. A parody of Dr. Phil that has not appeared much on Sesame Street. Only noteworthy characters such as Elmo or Big Bird should have articles on Wikipedia, for minor characters such as Dr. Feel, they should only be on the Muppet Wiki. RandomOrca2 18:58, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

• Merge. Into Dr. Phil (TV series), I think. The Evil Spartan 20:00, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
• Delete No merge needed, he's already noted adequately at Dr. Phil Rackabello 20:32, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
• Keep or merge - Fuzheado | Talk 20:53, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
• Redirect to Sesame Street. He's just not ready for his own article. the_undertow ^talk 21:46, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
• Delete based on lack of notability for minor characters WP:FICT Corpx 21:46, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
• Merge - I reccommend merging the article into several different articles. The articles would include Sesame Street, Phil McGraw, and Dr. Phil (TV series). Just add a short section in the above articles about our little friend. --Tλε Rαnδom Eδιτor (ταlκ) 23:26, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
• Merge as suggested above which means to Dr.Phil.--JForget 16:30, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

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The result was no consensus to delete, default to keep. As an editorial action, I'm redirecting it to David Fonseca until somebody bothers to write any non-crystalball content for this article. Sandstein 07:01, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Superstars song

Superstars song (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) – (View AfD)

Per WP:MUSIC, individual songs do not require separate articles unless they are unusually notable and have sources to demonstrate that. In addition, Wikipedia is not a crystal ball. Prod removed without comment by creator. FisherQueen (Talk) 18:17, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

• Comment This article is about David Fonseca's third album first single, that will be hitting the stores this monday! Till then I will not have more info! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mddms 88 (talk • contribs)

• Then you should have waited until Monday to add the article. It's not like Wikipedia's going to disappear by then. Ten Pound Hammer • ^{(((Broken clamshells • Otter chirps)))} 18:42, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

• Delete, actually... the originator should have waited until the single came out and it was demostrated that this particular release is notable enough to warrent an article on the individual song.--Isotope23 18:50, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
• Comment, based on what i saw, it's common to have the single info placed here before the single is out. The song will be out in 3 days, then I will be able to complete the article. I think it's not necessary to delete it. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Mddms 88 (talk • contribs).

Comment That only happens when it's 99% confirmed and has notability via WP:MUSIC. Wikipedia is not a crystal ball. We only establish future articles when nothing short of a nuclear holocaust will interrupt it. -WarthogDemon 18:58, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

Comment It's verifiable. You can check the artist official site. It's relevant, because it will receive extensive airplay in Portugal during all the summer. -—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Mddms 88 (talk • contribs).

But does it meet the standards in WP:MUSIC? Just because the main site says so, doesn't necessarily make it verifiable. -WarthogDemon 19:04, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

"has been covered in sufficient independent works." Saw a reference in two newspapers and heard in on one of Portugal's major radio station (antena 3). "has been ranked on a national or significant music chart" Surely will be soon on Portuguese airplay top. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mddms 88 (talk • contribs)

How good a reference was it? And notice that the criterion is "has been ranked", not "will be ranked". And please sign your posts. Ten Pound Hammer • ^{(((Broken clamshells • Otter chirps)))} 19:40, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

• I am not a fan of articles for individual songs, but it appears that this is likely to chart and prove its notability under the current guideline. Keep for now and move to Superstars (song). Maybe this "should have been added Monday", but under the same reasoning, deleting it now is an unnecessary process. The artist is clearly notable, and it seems likely that the song will be notable, and we'll surely know better in a little while. Dekimasuよ! 03:26, 14 July 2007 (UTC)
• Delete. The song is not notable at this point, based on any information in the article. Except that David Fonseca is involved, and the song will appear soon, there is really no other information. I have no objection to recreating the article later after the song comes out, there has been a chance to add third party commentary, and the song can be judged notable based on the independent sources. EdJohnston 15:45, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so that consensus may be reached.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, CitiCat ^♫ 18:22, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

• Comment I've relisted due to the release date having passed. Previous rational for keeping or deleting may no longer apply.
• Comment Still no sources to demonstrate notability, but that applies to about a million song articles by notable artists which tend not to get nominated for deletion. WP:CRYSTAL is obsolete, and I can't fathom why the nom would start a process one of the rationales for which would change halfway through. WP:CHILL applies here as well. Weakest possible keep as it seems it will be sourceable. --Dhartung | Talk 19:02, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
• Neutral but I added the future tag. Bearian 23:41, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

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The result was Speedy delete g1, patent nonsense, the Supreme Court doesn't hear trials. :) NawlinWiki 21:48, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Walt Disney Murder Trial

Walt Disney Murder Trial (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) – (View AfD)

obvious hoax; was prodded a couple times, author reverted NeilN 18:14, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

• Speedy delete, G3 My suggestion--do it now. Blatant hoax. Blueboy96 18:21, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
• Speedy delete, even the creator of the article says it's a joke. --RandomOrca2 18:59, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
• Speedy delete, I often say that hoaxes do not qualify as nonsense. This is both a hoax and nonsense. --Dhartung | Talk 19:04, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
• Speedy delete, obvious hoax. --Theunicyclegirl ^talk 19:30, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

• Speedy Delete Its obvious that this is a hoax. Why would walt disney be put on a murder trial for killing characters in their films? (Woggy 19:49, 21 July 2007 (UTC))
• Super Duper Speedy Delete Unencyclopedic bullocks Rackabello 20:28, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
• Speedy delete per all of the above. —Travis^talk 21:02, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
• Speedy delete no need to take this to AFD, nominate nonsense like this for speedy. --Android Mouse 21:04, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

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The result was Speedy delete, nonadmin closure. Ten Pound Hammer • ^{(((Broken clamshells • Otter chirps)))} 21:39, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Poor Boy Productions

Poor Boy Productions (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) – (View AfD)

No independent and / or reliable sources, no indications of notability. High on a tree 18:10, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

• Speedy Delete G11 and A7 Vanity page, as well as notability issues. We don't need to waste our time with this one. Rackabello 20:26, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

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The result was delete. Interesting. Sr13 02:12, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Corben Bone

Corben Bone (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) – (View AfD)

Prod contested, taking to afd at DGG's suggestion. Currently a college player, he has been a member of notable teams. BUT just because one is a member of a notable team doesn't mean you yourself are notable. As I said in my prod, there is no indication of his contribution to the team's success. For all we know, he spent more time on the bench than on the field. Unless someone can demonstrate notability - and include it in the article and not here or on the article's discussion page - I say delete as nn athlete. Postcard Cathy 17:57, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

• Delete - No notability established. Corpx 21:45, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
• ? - What is the relation between Corben Bone and Alexander Parker? the_undertow ^talk 22:03, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Oh yeah, I forgot that part. Delete because author is seriously confused between title and subject and notability of team vs. notability of player. Cathy

• Good question Corpx 22:11, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

• They're both U.S. soccer players, it seems, though your guess is a good as mine as to why an article about Alexander Parker is titled Corben Bone. --Malcolmxl5 22:24, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

• Delete The content refers to a completely different person (Alexander Parker) and there is no evidence that Corben Bone is notable <will that do?>. --Malcolmxl5 22:31, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
• Well Then Strong Delete If the subject is not in agreement with the article title, there is a huge problem. In any event, there are no references so there is no way to verify if they (which one, I don't know) pass a sports bio. the_undertow ^talk 22:35, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

I wouldn't say huge problem. Just an annoying problem. Someone who thinks Corben Bone is notable can blank the page and write an article on Corben on this title and if it turns out Alex is notable, then a new page can be started. But that is IF either are notable. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 172.146.136.185 (talk • contribs)

I was referencing the fact that it adds immense confusion as for which player we are trying to establish criteria for inclusion. Please remember to sign your posts ;) the_undertow ^talk 00:49, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

• Comment: Corben Bone is Parade magazine's High School Soccer Player of the year. Corvus cornix 04:26, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

May or may not be notable. I don't know how presitgious of an honor that is so I won't comment. But anyway, if you read the article, the author wrote about Alexander Parker, NOT Corben Bone.

No, I understand your point. Parade always issues a player of the year for all major high school sports, so it's a pretty prestigious award, even if the magazine is free with your Sunday newspaper. Corvus cornix 19:47, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

I know that Parade does that. But I am still not convinced it is a prestigious award. Besides, Corben Bone received the award, not Alexander Parker who is the subject of the article.

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The result was no consensus, default is to keep. Carlossuarez46 18:33, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Muhammad's Monsters

Muhammad's Monsters (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) – (View AfD)

article was initially prodded, but as that has been contested, i have brought the article to be discussed here. i believe it fails WP:BK criteria, and as i wrote on the talk page: there are no apparent reliable or independent sources offering non-trivial review of the book. the only information i could find in the first 100 ghits or so was standard unauthored summaries plastered on retail websites(i.e. [11],[12])- thus no independent review from anyone not actually selling the book- and the only other mention was a trivial title-mention in a Haaretz article. hence, Delete. ITAQALLAH 17:55, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

• Note: This debate has been included in the list of Literature-related deletions. ITAQALLAH 17:59, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
• Note: This debate has been included in the list of Islam-related deletions. ITAQALLAH 17:59, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
• Delete in the absence of reviews showing notabiity. DGG (talk) 02:07, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
• Delete per above. I agree, we don't have enough data to judge notability. ZZ 15:41, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
• Keep Book is a collection of writings from very notable experts on radical islam . The book page is also part of David Bukay's bibliography.--CltFn 12:15, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
• Delete per nom and DGG. → AA ^(talk) — 12:49, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
• Keep As CltFn pointed out, some of the writers are highly notable. -- Karl Meier 21:14, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
  • that may justify articles on the writers themselves. there is no reason to believe the book itself is notable as per WP:BK. ITAQALLAH 21:18, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
    • Agreed - If the individual authors are indeed notable in and of themselves, then saying so in the article (via a sourced statement) would be sufficient to assert notability. The book could be notable due to its content, but notability is not inherited from the book's author(s). Reading the article itself, I have no means to judge why this collection is notable in and of itself - it's just a table of contents. ZZ 23:19, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

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The result was keep, as article now passes WP:BIO. ~ Wikihermit 00:58, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Sally J. Clark

Sally J. Clark (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) – (View AfD)

She fails WP:NOTE. A Seattle city councilwoman who was appointed, not even elected. Clarityfiend 17:42, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

• Delete. Although I have seen articles for members of major city councils (e.g. NYC) I am not thrilled with them, unless it's a council/manager form of government, which few major cities are. In most cases the mayor holds the vast majority of the "notable" power in US cities, i.e. appointments & budgets & policies. In such cases I'd like to see real notability established, and WP:BIO does agree; beneath state legislature level, politicians should have substantial coverage of their activities to be notable. That means interviews, initiatives, etc. --Dhartung | Talk 19:10, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
• Delete I don't believe local (as in city-level) politicians are notable. Corpx 21:43, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
• Weak delete as some city councillors can be notable, but I am not sure that she is notable. Bearian 23:44, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
• Weak Keep if there are more sources. in this particular case, there are no sources given except the appointment. From the one source there is, there seems to have been considerable previous controversy, so perhaps more sources can be found. I dislike blanket statements about local politicians. Some are nonentities, others notable. DGG (talk) 02:16, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
• Keep - article is now better sourced. -- SatyrTN (talk | contribs) 05:49, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
• Keep. This is not the strongest keep motion ever, but it barely satisfies the goals of WP:BIO by a smidge. Burntsauce 18:57, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

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The result was Speedy Deleted (Copyvio G12) by User:John. ELIMINATORJR ^TALK 23:33, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] 2007/08 Premier League Results

2007/08 Premier League Results (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) – (View AfD)

There is no need to have a page detailing the results of every Premier League game for the 2007-08 season. The resulting page would be huge, and it is also a violation of the Premier League's copyright over their fixture lists. - PeeJay 17:41, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

• Delete Very crufty and Wikipedia is not a sports almanac Rackabello 17:49, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
• Strong delete' Wikipedia is not a newspaper. Blueboy96 18:23, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
• Delete due to the copyright issues. I'm sure we deleted monthly result lists several months ago, and this is no different. NeoChaosX (talk, walk) 19:24, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
• Delete Wikipedia is not a webhost. --Edokter (Talk) 19:34, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
• This discussion has been included in WikiProject Football's list of football (soccer) related deletions. ChrisTheDude 20:11, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
• Delete as per nom. Un-needed concept, and a terrible article to boot. Copyright violations, fair use violations, the spelling, just UGH! - fchd 20:14, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
• Speedy delete CSD G12?. There is a copyright infringement issue here. Wikipedia is not immune from copyright litigation and this should be speedy deleted. --Malcolmxl5 20:32, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
• Speedy delete, no content whatsoever (and possible copyright infringement). --Angelo 21:02, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
• Comment sports results are a matter of fact, and therefore, no matter how much the sports associations that arrange the matches might complain otherwise, are not copyrightable. JulesH 22:07, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Reply - Tell that to the Premier League then. We're here to debate the validity of this article, not copyrightability of sports fixtures. - PeeJay 22:09, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Comment Seriously, this is a copyright infringement. It's the fixture lists that are copyright - see this - and the Premier League is very hot on this issue (though what leverage they'd have on a website outside the UK is another question). Regardless, this should be a speedy G12, and I've tagged it as such. Note that once played, the results are copyright-free. ELIMINATORJR ^TALK 22:34, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

I've removed the speedy tag; The page in itself is not a copyvio, and hence does not fall under the G12 criteria. Once an article is listed for AfD, it can only be speedy-deleted with a valid reason, and you should not try to derail or speed up the proces to further you point. --Edokter (Talk) 23:07, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

It is as blatant a copyright violation as you could ever get. I don't understand your point at all here. ELIMINATORJR ^TALK 23:14, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Maybe it is, maybe not. Fact is, you should not have replaced the tag: Once removed, the next step is AfD, where it already is. The closing admin always has the option of speedy-deleting it. --Edokter (Talk) 23:16, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

• Delete --JForget 22:19, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

  AfD is not a !vote. Please provide some rationale. --Edokter (Talk) 23:07, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

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The result was redirect to Sens Unik. That AfD was over two years ago, and I'm quite sure guidelines have changed since then. Merging would not be appropriate, redirect is better. Sr13 02:23, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Rade

Rade (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) – (View AfD)

This article was nominated for deletion before, the concensus was Delete Keep according to the archived discussion, and the article seems to have returned. Whoever this person is is still a non-notable ex-band member who has nothing better to do than "multimedia projects" these days. K-lit 04:15, 13 July 2007 (UTC) To add I must have read the deletion log incorrectly, I think I linked to the wrong page. Still, there's nothing I can find notable about this person. Please consider this in building concensus for this nomination, and don't consider my erroneous comment about the deletion log.K-lit 14:56, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

• I wasn't able to find anything in the deletion log, but it makes no difference. Delete as nonnotable per WP:MUSIC. There is at least one external source for this guy, but that's not quite enough. He's produced five albums, but it says that he "will" make another one in 2005. Since 2005 there have been about seven edits to this article. I don't think it will be missed. Shalom ^Hello 05:22, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
  • Let me modify my opinion. The deletion discussion was Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Rade, and the result was keep (nomination withdrawn). It was not a unanimous decision, but most users decided that he was notable, and I'm in no position to disagree. Some suggested a redirect to Sens Unik. Shalom ^Hello 05:26, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
• Note: This debate has been included in the list of Switzerland-related deletions. -- John Vandenberg 08:56, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so that consensus may be reached.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, DES ^(talk) 17:40, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

• Weak Delete per lack of coverage on this guy. I dont believe notability is inherited Corpx 21:42, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
• Delete I could scarcely find any coverage of this guy, except in relation to this group he was with. I just can't understand how he's notable on his own.FoamParty 05:15, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

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The result was delete. Sr13 02:27, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Famous groups of people

Famous groups of people (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) – (View AfD)

I had originally CSD'd this last night, but I removed the tag because I was no longer certain that this was a candidate for speedy deletion. However, I still am not convinced that this article fulfills notability. It is also currently unsourced and to me looks very strongly to be original research. Trusilver 17:19, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

• Delete. List whose inclusion criteria are unclear, and probably cannot be unambiguously specified. Espresso Addict 17:45, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
• Strong delete. The criterion is way too broad. Civilization is built on groups. Are we supposed to list them all? Clarityfiend 17:47, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
• Delete per Espresso Addict and Clarityfiend Rackabello 17:54, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
• Delete - untenable list. The criteria is far too general, and could include a pratically infinite set of sets of two or more people from fiction, history, scientific research, religion, industry... even the list of possible groupings is too long, much less the entries in each that would make this article live up to its name. ◄Zahakiel► 19:46, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
• Delete Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of information. VanTucky ^(talk) 22:15, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
• Delete Very incomplete list and certainly will be hard to maintain itJForget 22:23, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
• Delete per Zahakiel ; Impossible to have the article maintained. Original Research and POV -Flubeca^Talk 23:42, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
• Delete per above, and as listcruft. Bearian 23:45, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
• Delete - About as useful a listcuft as List of stuff would be. Tarc 03:08, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
• Delete worthless cruft Bigdaddy1981 08:47, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
• Delete per Zahakiel. ---Theoldanarchist_Comhrá 16:33, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

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The result was keep. W.marsh 02:39, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] TetriNET

TetriNET (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) – (View AfD)

This was tagged for speedy deletion as 'blatant advertising', which I feel is not the case. However, as it has also been PROD'd (and contested), I hope no-one will mind if I bring it here rather than adding a {{hangon}} tag. Article has two main problems; a lack of independent references (WP:V), and no real claim to notability (WP:N). Other issues (game-guide material, excessive external links) can be cleared up should this be a keeper. Marašmusïne_Talk 17:15, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

• Note: This debate has been added to the list of video game deletions. Marašmusïne_Talk 17:16, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
• DELETE - per nom. ~ JohnnyMrNinja _{talk} 17:27, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
• Keep -- Long running and recognized online game with significant international community, and many open source and related internet projects. Notability bias works against this subject as it is an exclusively internet phenom. Reminds of Subspace as similar in notability, status, etc. Working on sources to satisfy WP:N, see open directory category, freshmeat project, case's ladder league... ∴ here…♠ 18:25, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

  Well the Open Directory source is a directory entry, as appears to be the case with the Freshmeat project; I would call those trivial. The ladder league would not be an independent source. If it's as recognized as you say, then I'm sure there must be an article or a review out there from a reliable website. Marašmusïne_Talk 18:40, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

  Running 24/7 for over 10 years, mpogd.com, mobygames.com. The best indication of notability I can find is the sheer number of client+server apps which have been ported to most modern operating systems. These ports are not simply tetris clones, but actual TetriNet clients and servers. If not kept, should be merged into Tetris. This a long-living internet meme and community which I feel would be best kept seperate from the main Tetris article. ∴ here…♠ 18:43, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

• Keep - I was the one who contested the initial PROD on grounds of non-notability. Article clearly has a lot of room for improvement, particularly in the area of independent references, but from the logs it is apparently that improvement is being made at a fairly rapid pace (many edits in the past week alone). Moreover, there is and historically has been a significant online community, and a simple Google search turns up numerous articles and pop-culture references to the game (some of which should certainly be incorporated into the article).Konekoniku 18:38, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
• Comment I've been looking for references; I won't deny it's a popular game. Lots of sites that will be useful for WP:Verification (entry at Mobygames, passing mentions at places like Gamenikki). However I haven't found anything to satisfy WP:N. Marašmusïne_Talk 18:48, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

  I believe notability can be satisfied by the numerous ports and open source projects based on this subject. The fact that ports of this are available for nearly any modern OS shows a level of recognition within the electronic community. I would venture than a widely indexed port for an OS like Debian might be treated as a single published article on the subject. Mainstream media coverage appears non-existant. ∴ here…♠ 18:56, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

  There is no question as to how well-known or popular it is, that has nothing to do with this discussion. Notability is not popularity. "A topic is presumed to be notable if it has received significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject." I have nothing personal against the game, but it does not meet notability guidelines, so should not be here. ~ JohnnyMrNinja _{talk} 19:35, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

• Weak Keep Has potential. Not blatant spam, but article needs a lot of improvement. Rackabello 20:20, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
• Keep. It's notable, probably hard to reference, but doable and it should not be deleted. Andre (talk) 20:50, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
• Weak Delete per lack of "significant coverage" from independent sources. I searched google news and only saw trivial mentions. Corpx 21:40, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

  The game is from 1997. Are you sure google news archives go back that far? --Allefant 10:39, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

• keep, found this on lexis nexis trivially: "Copyright 1997 COMPUTIMES, The New Straits Times Press (Malaysia) Berhad; September 22, 1997; Addictive game for Tetris lovers; SECTION: Technology; ; Pg. 48; LENGTH: 939 words." The whole thing is completely about TetriNET. — brighterorange (talk) 04:04, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
• Keep as notability is self-evident here, and deletion would not serve to improve our encyclopedia. Yamaguchi先生 04:37, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
• Keep this is far from failing notability, 280 000 google hits including many reviews. Just two random picks from the first results page: [13] [14], but apparently there are many more, no point spending time on this though. Editors of the article of course should look for good references and add them - but lazy editors is no reason to delete. --Allefant 10:27, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
• Keep: a very well known, popular game (I remember playing it a lot back in University). It was also the subject of the Linux.conf.au 2004 HackFest [15] --James 09:41, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

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The result was delete. --Coredesat 03:19, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Silaba

Silaba (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) – (View AfD)

This band from Africa appears to fail WP:MUSIC. Judging by the article, they have released one album at an unknown label, and won a price (not further specified) by the French government, probably rather minor. Article apparently created in WP:COI by WoyClub, an organization they are closely affiliated with. Since they might have some special significance for music in Africa, I involved WikiProject Africa in an expert review, but without positive answer. -- Sent here as part of the Notability wikiproject. --B. Wolterding 17:03, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

• Delete no notability established Corpx 21:38, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
• Delete, the WP:N is the big problem here.--Aldux 16:18, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

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The result was Merge => Nokia 6xxx series; this is essentially a Keep content result. I do not agree with the premise that this cannot be merged unless it is part of a systematic set of mergers. --User:Ceyockey (talk to me) 01:41, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Nokia 6151

Nokia 6151 (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) – (View AfD)

I PRODded this article with rationale: "Non-notable product; fails WP:CORP, since no independent coverage is given. Sources cited are the vendor's web site, a blog platform (WP:SPS), and a web site that copied information from the vendor." PROD was contested. I would like to add that mobile phone models are so short-lived that permanent notability of a single model is rather unlikely. -- Sent here as part of the Notability wikiproject. --B. Wolterding 16:48, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

• Keep. Nokia is the world's largest manufacturer of mobile phones and its models usually have sales numbers in the millions. For hard facts like technical data, the manufacturer's own site is normally regarded as a reliable source, and if an independent source is accepting the manufacturer as a reliable source and adopting the data from there, this is to be seen as an additional verification. The added remark seems to confuse the commercial availability of a product with its encyclopedic notability; by the same logic one had to delete nearly all articles about cars or home computer models, or indeed biographical articles once the article's subject has died. Due to the important role mobile phones are playing in people's everyday lives, (and its role in Nokia's product strategy), this mobile phone, as many others, is likely to be prop up in films and photos, diaries, attics and technology history contemplations decades after its sales have officially ended. Regards, High on a tree 18:30, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
  • It's a consequence of the guidelines. See WP:CORP#Recommendations for products and services: Individual products are generally not notable and should be included in an article about the company, or in an article of broader scope (which already exists in this case, actually there's not much to merge, if anything). For the general remark: These phones receive temporary secondary coverage when they are released, and will probably not be covered afterwards, so it falls into what is described in WP:N#Notability is not temporary. In five years from now, I think no one will be interested in what a Nokia 6151 is, or in which colours it was available. --B. Wolterding 09:23, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

• Merge/redir to Nokia 6xxx series (along with most all of the individual models listed on Template:Nokia phones, to their respective 'series' article). For the most part, having articles on specific cell phone model numbers is akin to having separate articles for Ford Expedition V-6 and Ford Expedition V-8. Sohelpme 20:49, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
• Keep or Merge. Random pick-offs of articles in a comprehensive series do more harm than good to the project. Dhaluza 20:11, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
  • The choice is not random: This article had been tagged with notability concerns since November 06. --B. Wolterding 09:23, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
    • It's random in the sense that there are dozens of similar articles, and the same AfD argument could be made to others. Editors are working on a series of articles here with comprehensive coverage of a subject area. Perhaps each individual phone make/model does not need a separate article, but how to merge them is an editorial decision that is not suitable for AfD. The nominator is requesting deletion, which erases the content, history and link. All of these should be preserved. The phone obviously exists and was sold to the public in non-trivial numbers. Dhaluza 10:30, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
      • I would agree with you on the dozens of similar articles, but that's an WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS argument. Also, had I listed them all for deletion per WP:BUNDLE, the nomination would probably have been rejected since I was "nominating too many articles at the same time". So I'm nominating the one at hand. I am requesting deletion since I think that the article's content is not worth being kept. However, if "Nokia 6151" is considered a likely search term, I'm happy with a redirect as well. --B. Wolterding 12:14, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

• Keep or merge - Fuzheado | Talk 20:55, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

• Keep. Plenty of independent sources about this product, e.g. [16] [17]. JulesH 22:14, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
• Merge only if it is done systematically as Sohelpme suggests, otherwise Keep. Katherine Tredwell 23:05, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

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The result was delete. ˉˉ^anetode╦╩ 15:05, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Aset Ka

Aset Ka (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) – (View AfD)

No original Research. Wikipedia was used to be a starting point of an fake organization that claims to exist more than 7000 years ago. there were no proofs found that they exist that long. the only registers I and other researchers could found about them were pretty recent Darkoex 16:43, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

• Delete as unreferenced nonsense. Supposedly based on the concept of ka ("vital energy") - looks more like ka ka ("crap"). Clarityfiend 17:52, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
• Delete—almost completely unreferenced, riddled through with original research and POV writing. If this were a legitimate organization, it'd need a complete rewrite; as it is, it seems non-notable enough that it can be deleted without a second thought. Switchercat ^talk_cont 18:54, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
• Delete It's a hoax, and not even that good of a hoax. Every source I have found on Aset Ka cross references each other in a way that looks legitimate until you see that it's nothing but a house of cards - each source relying on each other for notability except that none of them provide any true references. There is not a single source on the organization older than three years ago which as far as I'm concerned put this clearly in opposition of WP:NOT#OR. Trusilver 20:37, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
• Undecided – What is a supersecret society doing publishing itself – if it exists – it's a Catch 22 type situation. I can't bring myself to use the D-word because of a crazy curiosity. Julia Rossi 07:26, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

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The result was delete. Sr13 02:40, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Doom 2D

Doom 2D (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) – (View AfD)

Non-notable homebrew game ~ JohnnyMrNinja _{talk} 16:38, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

• Note: This debate has been added to the list of video game deletions. Marašmusïne_Talk 17:22, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
• Speedy Delete No assertion of notability Rackabello 20:24, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
• Note: CSD:A7 (speedy deletion due to lack of notability of person/group/web-site) does not apply to software products. I removed the speedy notice; let's let this AfD run to completion to decide. Owen× ☎ 20:47, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
• Delete. Non-notable fan game. Andre (talk) 20:51, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
• Delete. I'd have left the speedy notice. Someguy1221 22:09, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
• Transwiki to the Doom Wiki, I would presume it would deserve an article there.--JForget 22:24, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

  Looks like it's there already (although sans pictures) Marašmusïne_Talk 07:43, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

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The result was delete. --Coredesat 03:20, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Brassy's Men

Brassy's Men (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) – (View AfD)

Fails WP:N due to lack of relevant independent coverage. PROD contested by User:The Bearded One with request to list it on AfD. -- Sent here as part of the Notability wikiproject. --B. Wolterding 16:39, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

• Delete No notability established and I cant find any either Corpx 21:37, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
• Delete - per WP:V, no assertion of notability. -- MarcoTolo 22:46, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

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The result was no consensus, default is to keep. Carlossuarez46 18:35, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] XGameStation

XGameStation (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) – (View AfD)

Non-notable and unreferenced homebrew software ~ JohnnyMrNinja _{talk} 16:29, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

• Note: This debate has been added to the list of video game deletions. Marašmusïne_Talk 17:24, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
• Delete per nom Rackabello 20:22, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
• Keep - A quick google search reveals pages and pages of articles; Dreamstation.cc, geek.com, Megagames.com, and so on. Nominator is correct in that this article is unreferenced - I'll help clean it up once this AfD is over. Marašmusïne_Talk 07:51, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
• Delete per nom. Fin©™ 10:55, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
• Keep No idea why this article is considered 'Non encyclopedic'. There are tens of thousands articles with more 'obscure' subjects than this. More references could easily be provided. Also JohnnyMrNinja is completely off the mark, this subject has nothing to do about "Non-notable and unreferenced homebrew software", the XGameStation is a Device not just software, and it is quite unique in its sort. Mahjongg 10:41, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

I have added a few references to the article. Mahjongg 15:16, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

• Keep per added references. Axem Titanium 02:10, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
• Keep per Mahj. Pats Sox Princess 02:44, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
• Keep, due to the establishment of notability by credible CVG related sources. bwowen talk•contribs•review me please! 12:39, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

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The result was delete. Sr13 02:54, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Elementality Vol. Two

Elementality Vol. Two (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) – (View AfD)

No definition/context (not a single complete sentence), no references, unclear notability. High on a tree 16:04, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

• Delete Appears to be a promotional short for a skateboard manufacturer. Nothing in the way of notable content, save for the skaters involved. Caknuck 16:21, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
• Delete No notability established Corpx 21:35, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
• Delete per WP:N. -- MarcoTolo 23:01, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

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The result was delete as possible plagairism, redirect to Politics of Kosovo. Until(1 == 2) 05:07, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Government of Kosovo

Government of Kosovo (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) – (View AfD)

The article is just a pasted list of the competencies of the Provisional Institutions of Self-Government set up by the United Nations Interim Administration Mission in Kosovo. The topic is dealt with in a far more encyclopaedic manner in the article on the Provisional Institutions of Self-Government. We would not want to merge this article into that one as a there is an appropriate link in that article to the source of this copy-and-pasted information. The title of the article is also potentially misleading and/or POV. DSuser 16:02, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

• Comment This is not a good article, but it is a standard one to have for government entities (e.g. Government of the United States, Government of San Marino). Perhaps a disambiguation to cover pre-"provisional" governments when it was a province, and the current one, and perhaps an eventual autonomous/independent one? At worst, a redirect to the Provisional article. (I should note that both of the ones I pointed to are in fact redirects. Here's one that isn't: Government of Tasmania.) --Dhartung | Talk 19:13, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

I agree, cleanup/expand yes, delete no.71.142.91.34 00:33, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

• Delete While notable, I think it'd be best to start over. This is just a copy/paste of that document, which is probably not copyrighted Corpx 21:35, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
• Delete Obviosuly, that looks to have been plagiarism from a site. It should only be used in Politics of Kosovo right via a weblink--JForget 22:26, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
• Transwiki to WikiSource, if this is verbatim. 70.55.91.131 08:16, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
• Redirect to Politics of Kosovo or PISG article, per Dhartung. Wl219 11:58, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

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The result was delete. Sr13 03:06, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] This is My Element

This is My Element (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) – (View AfD)

No definition/context (not a single complete sentence), no references, unclear notability. High on a tree 15:59, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

• Delete Appears to be a promotional short for a skateboard manufacturer. Nothing in the way of notable content, save for the skaters involved. Caknuck 16:22, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
• Delete information-free article about, I think, a promo video. —Travis^talk 22:35, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
• Delete - fails basic WP:N level. -- MarcoTolo 23:02, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
• Delete - more cruft is being added --NeilN 17:04, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
• Delete Fails Wikipedia:Notability and does not contain any real content. --Credema 18:31, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

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The result was delete. Anas ^talk? 09:18, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Element audio visual

Element audio visual (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) – (View AfD)

No definition/context (not a single complete sentence), no references, unclear notability. High on a tree 15:56, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

• Delete I dont know what this is. The link on that page doesn't explain what this is either Corpx 21:34, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

• Delete - complete lack of context (one could argue that it meets CSD G1 - but probably not <sigh>). It took me several minutes of searching to determine - I think - that this is about a series of semi-pro skating videos (possibly relevant link). No assertion of notability, no WP:RS references. -- MarcoTolo 23:00, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

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The result was keep. Can't sleep, clown will eat me 07:45, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Edward McSweegan

Edward McSweegan (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) – (View AfD)

Notability is not conclusively proven. Writing several books and journal pieces are not enough to satisfy notability guidelines. Also, its subject is asking for deletion. — Shinhan < talk > 15:37, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

• Speedy delete per nom and subject. This is a potential libel and slander problem. Bearian 16:04, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Every article is a "potential libel and slander [sic] problem" (emphasis added). That doesn't mean they should be deleted. Rather, that means that we as editors must keep an eye on our articles and ensure they do not contain libelous statements. --ElKevbo 17:07, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Comments: Libel and slander is the name of the article and the collection of torts. I would change my vote to weak delete, based on significant improvement to the article, but also comments (below) allegedly by the subject. Bearian 23:52, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Somehow I would think that if the original version were oversighted, the libel issue would be eliminated. Blueboy96 00:08, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

BTW, the subject edited the "bad" version in question himself and made no effort to remove negative material, instead choosing to employ point-by-point rebuttal to each point he disagreed with, very messy by WP standards. This is in versions now removed by oversight. Studerby 20:43, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

• Comment I'm in the midst of a major rewrite of this article, per verifiable information from highly reliable sources (CBS News, WaPo). Please give it a chance ... Blueboy96 16:06, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
• Delete (pending sourcing from Blueboy96) I find it absurd that the subject would think to call us "vandals" when his first contribution here was to POV-push and delete cited material from reputable sources. All that aside, I don't think the subject is sufficiently notable for inclusion, regardless of their desire to have a bio or here or not. Caknuck 16:15, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

As I understand it, the original version was heavily plagiarized. Blueboy96 17:02, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

I was referring to Emcsweegan's edits to Lyme disease from last year. Regardless of the user's prior activity, Blueboy96's version satisfies WP:N and WP:V, so my !vote is now Keep Caknuck 01:57, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

• Delete per CSD A7 and WP:BLP --Edokter (Talk) 16:28, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

That there was an entire CBS Evening News article solely focused on this individual contradicts your assertion of CSD A7. I have no comment on the alleged BLP issues. --ElKevbo 16:46, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

• It's fixed ... to my mind, the fact that he was a program officer at the NIH is enough to be notable. Keep--but give a stern warning to Freyfaxi for potentially causing legal problems for Wikipedia. Blueboy96 16:57, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
• Keep as the newest version cites multiple (well, just two...but that's multiple!) excellent sources asserting and supporting the notability of the subject. I would be amenable to discussing merging this article in to the NIH article but that is a separate discussion and an editorial decision. --ElKevbo 17:05, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
• Keep. Current version appears adequately sourced, and the news coverage supports notability. Espresso Addict 17:41, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
• Keep the subject is notable; besides the references now in the article, the subject keeps injecting himself publicly into significant public health controversies, such as Lyme disease and more recently morgellons, see for example Pathogens & People: Internet helps spread delusion that Morgellons a disease which was published this month. The guy's happy to publicly pronounce on other people and gets bent when people who cite reliable sources write about him. (He did have a justifiable complaint with the original version of the article though.) He pops up all over on Google; while much of it is nasty "echo chamber" stuff written by folks he's annoyed, he's not exactly an anonymous scientist. Studerby 17:48, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
• Comment Despite the fact that the article has been substantially cleaned up, McSweegan is still ranting about it not being "approved" by him and that it was "lifted" from certain sources without permission. I'm starting to wonder how much longer we can assume good faith. Blueboy96 18:03, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

• Note: This debate has been included in the list of Academics and educators-related deletions. —Espresso Addict 17:41, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

• Keep, individual is clearly notable as a search of Google News Archive, Google Books and Google Scholar indicate. He has held a significant government post in his field (more than one, actually) and has been covered in depth for his views. I'd love to make this go away by deleting the article but unless OFFICE comes up with a rationale for that I have to stay with WP:BIO. --Dhartung | Talk 19:22, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

I hope Office doesn't delete it just because he doesn't want it there. If that were to happen, it would set a very bad precedent for Wikipedia. Blueboy96 19:28, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

• Please delete. Doesn't it matter what I think about being subjected to a Wiki entry for reasons unknown, by persons unknown? How can deleting something intended to defame and harass someone be a bad precdent? Whatever happened to honesty and accuracy? EMS

Please note that the above editor purports to be the subject of this biographical article.

I do not understand your assertion that the article is "intended to defame and harass someone". Can you please expand on that, preferably with examples from the current version of the article? --ElKevbo 21:44, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Dr. McSweegan, it seems that we've gotten off on the wrong foot here. By no means is the site here to defame and harass people. In fact, we have several core policies in place (most importantly regarding the biographies of living people and maintaining a neutral point of view) to prevent those very problems. If there are inaccuracies in an article, by all means bring them forward for discussion. We value accuracy very highly, and are working constantly to ensure that our articles are more accurate and thorough. Caknuck 22:13, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Policy says: When closing AfDs about living persons whose notability is ambiguous, the closing admin should take into account whether the subject of the article has asked that it be deleted. What we're doing here is arguing about whether or not Dr. McSweegan is sufficiently notable to justify an article. If Tom Delay asked for his article to be deleted, it wouldn't be. If someone created an article about me, it should be speedily deleted; I'm simply not notable, even though a Google search will turn up quite a bit of trivia about me. Dr McSweegan is somewhere in the middle, and that's what interested parties are debating here. In a few days, an administrator will come along and decide what happens next.Studerby 23:09, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

"In a few days." Is that the policy: to leave questionable or libelous material on your site long enough for it to be seen by thousands of Wiki users, then replicated by Google, Reference, Answer, etc. so it can be stored and retrieved by anyone from any number of other sites forever? Very reasonable, very responsible of you. I'm going on vacation for a few days; when I get back we'll settle this in public, not behind Wiki's barred doors. Emcsweegan 00:53, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

I thought about it and thought about it, and requested oversight of the relevant versions. Did this before discovering this comment by Dr. McSweegan. Blueboy96 01:18, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

• Weak keep per Dhartung.--JForget 22:27, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
• Keep per Espresso Addict and Dhartung. —Travis^talk 23:22, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
• Comment I think what has Dr. McSweegan so upset is that the original version of the article was the definition of an attack page. It was also heavily plagiarized. I'm starting to think that the best solution here is to oversight all versions prior to ThuranX's edit of today. Blueboy96 23:32, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

I think that is an excellent suggestion should this article be kept. --ElKevbo 00:01, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

• Delete. There are a some stories from 2003 about how he says he was being "paid to do nothing". The news stories were simply reporting this interesting claim because it suggested some sort of corruption. There do not appear to be any more independent sources since that time. This biography serves to document someone's briefly famous dispute with their employer. Wikipedia is not a news archive, notability is weak, and the subject wants it deleted. shotwell 23:57, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Comment It seems Dr. McSweegan's issue is that the original version is still in the history (per his statement here that it was "intended to defame and harass me"). Oversighting it would take care of the problem, in my view. Blueboy96 00:07, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

And it's been done. Theresa Knott | The otter sank 01:39, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

• Keep in the present form, and watch. DGG (talk) 02:29, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
• Delete Although I was involved in stubbing the article from its previous form to avoid a lot of the issues EMS had. I want to acknowledge that the current version is a much better assembled article, and those responsible should be wikipedia's stub patrol. However, even now, the article basically says "Here's a guy who didn't like his job, his bosses moved him, and hey, even though he didn't like it, he's good at it. Oh, he also thinks crackpots are crackpots, wrote a couple papers in his field, and a couple of pretty unknown sci fi novels." I really haven't seen any major arguments for notability. Should EMS ramp up his activism against moregollums or whatever it's called, and become a national speaker against the diagnosis, or do the same for Chronic Lyme, or any other disease, and become known for being not the loudest mouth, but the best mind against it, that would be notable. Being one among many saying it's a load of hooey does not make him notable to me. Couple that with his desire to NOT be on here, as a dubiously notable person, and I really have to support deletion. ThuranX 03:16, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

It seems to me that McSweegan's main objection was that the original version was still in the article's history. I personally think the oversighting removes the issue from play--hopefully Dr. McSweegan agrees. Blueboy96 12:23, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

• Keep and Clean Up This article has some NPOV issues, but if Dr. McSweegan wishes for 'his side of the story' to be represented, his best course of action is to create more sources (interviews) so they may be used in the article.Archon of Atlantis 09:35, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
• Keep, but purge history - He seems notable, and assuming the newest version is up to snuff and satisfies the subject, I propose that the past history of the article be purged. Talk page also if deemed necessary. That would leave it still available to admins, if needed, but not the casual user. - Crockspot 16:49, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

The past history of the article has been oversighted ... that was done yesterday. It's only visible to admins with oversight access--but not to the casual user. Blueboy96 16:56, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

Actually, you're not quite right here. Not even admins with oversight access can see oversight-deleted articles. We can view the log of what was deleted in this fashion, but not see the content. Only developers with SQL access can do that; there is no route to this content in-Wiki. Matthew Brown (Morven) (T:C) 19:45, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

• Keep - Seems notable enough for inclusion in this project. --Tom 17:45, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
• Comment - McSweegan does seem to be a player in a controversey significant enough to have its own separate article (Lyme disease controversy), though not significant enough to be mentioned in the article about the controversey. Given the polarization of his situation, which does seem to be noteworthy, it is unlikely that there are any truly disinterested parties who could write an informed article in a NPOV using only the sort of sources acceptable for citation in WIkipedia. However, if such article could be written, it would be worth having. How close is the current article to meeting such a standard? Hard to tell. --Pleasantville 18:19, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
• Question Where did the subject request deletion? If he did, delete, but if not, keep as there doesn't seem to be anything wrong with it. Giggy _U^CP 01:57, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

revision from this very page has User:Emcsweegan saying just that. — Shinhan < talk > 05:42, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

• Keep there is nothing that is too defamatory or critical about the subject. Most criticism is against McSweegan's employer. Pats Sox Princess 02:49, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

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The result was delete both, then redirect the first to List of basic astronomy topics. Sr13 03:10, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] List of astronomical topics

List of astronomical topics (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs)

List of astronomical topics 2 (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) – (View AfD)

Extremely unmaintainable (and fairly unmaintained), woefully incomplete and indiscriminate list. For example, there are 359,083 members of the extended Henry Draper catalog alone. We're also up to 160,015 asteroids. Yet, all of these would be eligible to be included given the current inclusion criteria. Not to mention all the other stuff that hasn't been cataloged yet... Had a previous afd back in October 2006, which ended up as no consensus but since then, there's some inkling that these sorts of lists don't belong on Wikipedia. Redundant to various categories and tag schemes, for example Category:Astronomy articles by quality. MER-C 13:38, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

• Delete - The category on this topic (Category:Astronomy) is better suoited for use on navigation. This list is unmaintainable, and no one want to maintain it. Dr. Submillimeter 14:01, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
• Delete and redirect to List of basic astronomy topics, which is actually a useful article. JulesH 15:10, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
• Delete List adds nothing a category cant Corpx 15:48, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
• Delete despite their astronomical importance. Redirect per JulesH. --Dhartung | Talk 19:24, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
• Delete achieves no goal. Dan Gluck 19:53, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
• Delete — per nom. — RJH (talk) 20:11, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
• Delete we have categories for what would otherwise be ungodly huge and unmaintainable, indiscriminate lists. Someguy1221 22:07, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
• Delete useless list and way too long. The category mentionned above should be enough.--JForget 22:28, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
• Note: This debate has been included in the list of Science-related deletions. -- Bduke 23:05, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
• Delete per nom —Travis^talk 23:26, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
• Delete or move to WikiProject space as a historical page. The second list (#2) should be deleted, the first list might be of historical interest, of how WikiPedia worked before Categories were implemented. 70.55.91.131 08:26, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment - Is this even worth keeping in WikiProject space for historical purposes? Would anyone even bother using it or looking at it? Dr. Submillimeter 09:26, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
• Delete It's in 500 categories. Enough said. Bulldog123 18:39, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment - Is it possible to speedy-delete List of astronomical topics 2? It appears in literally hundreds of categories, and removing these categories might be too difficult. Dr. Submillimeter 20:07, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
• Userfy or move to project-space. The article says it is used to monitor changes to related pages. The category does not do the same thing, because of sub-categories. So it should be moved to User space for this purpose. Dhaluza 20:08, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment - Does anyone use the pages this way? Dr. Submillimeter 20:23, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
    • I assume XJamRastafire, the editor who created the list does, because that's what he/she wrote. And the list has had many other editors, so they may as well. This is not a good enough reason to keep an article in the main space, but is sufficient to justify keeping it in user or project space. Dhaluza 02:45, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
      • Comment - If the list is kept but moved to userspace, can List of astronomical topics 2 be edited so that it does not appear in hundreds of categories? This is a severe technical problem. Dr. Submillimeter 09:08, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
    • Being one of 'the other editors', don't assume that we actually use the list, we may just be passing by + doing some tidying!
      EdJogg 09:10, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
• Delete -- 'List 2' was created in the last few days following an enquiry at Wikipedia:Village pump (assistance)#List of everything related to astronomy. I created User:Quellem/List of everything related to astronomy for this user, after his initial enquiry, and removed his mass addition to 'List 1'. However he has since created 'List 2' in main space as well.
  EdJogg 09:19, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

I have understood my mistake, the list will be moved to my personal space. My project turned out not to be so easy I thought previously and must be postponed. --Quellem 10:32, 23 July 2007 (UTC) Ye may delete list you are talking about. I am really sorry. --Quellem 10:55, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

• Projectify into Wikipedia:WikiProject Astronomy. If this page is meant to be used as a way to track changes to articles related to astronomy through the "Related Changes" feature, then why not move it to the project that would have the most use for such a thing? DHowell 01:14, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

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The result was delete. --Coredesat 03:22, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

Addendum by closing admin: This has been userfied to User:TravisTX/Workshop/List of schools in India. --Coredesat 04:10, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] List of schools in India

List of schools in India (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) – (View AfD)

Listcruft--and given the size of India, it may never be complete. Blueboy96 13:26, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

• Delete. Unmaintainable listcruft. --Targeman 13:36, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
• Delete massive redlink farm, and unnecessary with Category:Schools in India anyway. Andrew Lenahan - Starblind 14:36, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
• Delete This is clearly listcruft. Having Category:Schools in India is more than enough. Thus this article is completely redundant as well. --Siva1979^{Talk to me} 15:05, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
• Delete Listcruft Nicko (Talk•Contribs)Review my progress! 15:14, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
• Delete per WP:NOT#DIRECTORY - WP is not a directory of schools in India Corpx 15:47, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
• Delete per above, as this could become the largest listcruft in the world. Bearian 16:07, 21 July 2007 (UTC) Bearian 16:07, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
• Delete- per WP:NOT#DIRECTORY. The category (Category:Schools in India) is enough. --Boricuaeddie ^hábleme 19:41, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
• Delete Absolute listfcruft article, the category should be enough.--JForget 22:29, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
• Note: This debate has been included in the list of Schools-related deletions. -- Bduke 23:03, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
• Note: This debate has been included in the list of Lists-related deletions. -- Bduke 23:03, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
• Delete per nom. —Travis^talk 23:31, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
• There are cases where lists are useful adjuncts to articles - where they provide additional, often comparative sources of information (List of districts of India, would be a good example). This is not one of those lists. Delete per WP:NOT a directory. -- MarcoTolo 23:36, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
• Delete We already have Category:Schools in India, which ensures that only notable schools are kept. Spellcast 12:10, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
• Strong keep The red links encourage the creation of missing articles, addressing Wikipedia's systemic bias against developing countries. Mowsbury 22:03, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

• Comment Strong Keep should be reserved for extreme cases, pointing to a few useful redlinks while completely ignoring all of the convincing arguments isn't even reason enough for a weak keep. Malc82 23:03, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

• There aren't any convincing delete arguments, delete votes are mostly just playground namecalling. Kappa
• There is no systemic bias against developing countries. It is done this way for every country Category:Lists of schools by country Corpx 05:33, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

• Keep, helps fight systemic bias. Kappa 05:29, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
• Keep, WP:BIAS--we have lists of schools in regions of the U.S. If the list is too long, then it should be split up, not deleted. Also for the umpteenth time, categories only track articles that exist, lists track articles that do and do not exist. Dhaluza 22:38, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
• Note: This debate has been included in the list of Schools-related deletions. — Dhaluza 22:48, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

Comment: WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS is generally considered an argument to avoid - after a quick look at the entries under List of schools by country, I suspect a bunch of those qualify for AfD consideration as well. -- MarcoTolo 23:03, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I am aware of that, but the argument was related to WP:BIAS which invites comparison. Dhaluza 23:38, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

• comment-maybe a category for such schools might be more useful than a list for a nation of a billion? Chris 01:01, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

  Yes eventually it will need to be split but I think it's too early to start a list of schools in Assam when it would only have 2-3 members. Kappa 03:33, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

• Keep The systemic bias argument is a strong one. This list will help in the development of articles in an area which is under-covered by Wikipedia. A category can not do this. The potential length of the article is a red herring. As the list grows, the article can be split. A closer look at the US link on List of schools by country will reveal that it links to Education in the United States which contains a link to Lists of school districts in the United States, which in turn contains links to lists such as List of school districts in Oklahoma. The individual school districts contain links to notable school articles. Note that is not an OTHERSTUFFEXISTS argument but an analogy of how lists can grow and be managed. Dsmdgold 12:55, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

I've read the WP:BIAS arguments and I disagree. Personally, I'd say delete to [[List of Schools in the United States]] or [[List of Schools in North America]] as well. This list is nearly 900 lines long as it is and I, for one, can't see how it can be reasonably managed. Given the size of India, this list very well may be longer than [[List of Schools in English-Speaking Countries]]. If the list were split per your example above, it would much more keep-worthy. —Travis^talk 15:12, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

The point is of the Bias arguments is that we have fairly full potential coverage of school districts in the United States because the mostly US editors here have worked out the scheme above. Our much fewer number of Indian editors have not had the time to work out the more mature scheme outlined above. If we delete this list now, then we will make largely inaccessible a great deal of work. At one time, the scheme for the US looked like this. We should give these editors the chance to let this list mature into a better scheme. Dsmdgold 15:06, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

For what it's worth, I copied the whole list to my user space and have started breaking into separate lists by state. —Travis^talk 00:22, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

• Delete per Corpx. --ForbiddenWord 14:13, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
• Keep While my vote is borderline, I do not see a need to delete this. Please see the guideline at Wikipedia:Categories, lists, and series boxes which states these three methods of organization are not in competition with the other. Categories should not replace lists or vice versa except for special circumstances, of which this is not. This article has obviously had a lot of work put into it and the rationale is much too weak to just delete it all. That the list may never be complete, the same could be said for the category also.(Mind meal 22:06, 25 July 2007 (UTC))

• That's one reasoning, but what about "WP is not a directory" (of schools in India) ? Corpx 01:53, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

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The result was delete. --Coredesat 03:24, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] TV Junkyard

TV Junkyard (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) – (View AfD)

This fails WP:ATT. There is no TV junkyard I can find. Nv8200p talk 13:16, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

• Delete Wikipedia is not for things made up in school one day. Blueboy96 14:37, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
• Delete - completely made up. NSR77 ^T_C 15:15, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
• Delete'. I think this isn't NFT so much as a very clumsy attempt to write a computer recycling stub. --Dhartung | Talk 19:25, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

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The result was delete. --Coredesat 03:25, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Z Machine (Video Game System)

Z Machine (Video Game System) (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) – (View AfD)

Non notable. No reliable sources provided. Wikipedia is not a crystal ball. --OnoremDil 12:57, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

• Strong delete Only source is to a Comcast home page. Not exactly a reliable source. A grand total of zero Yahoo or Google hits. Closing admin should take a long look at the history of the author, Scotty12 (talk · contribs)--he has a history of problematic edits to video game articles. Blueboy96 13:06, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
• Delete - Crystal ball may be too nice, as a sparse article and a comcast homepage smells like a hoax. Tarc 13:10, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Now that I think of it, this does look like a hoax. So tagged. Blueboy96 13:24, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

• Delete as hoax or extremely non-notable. Andrew Lenahan - Starblind 13:40, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Pretty obvious hoax of the "Zmachine" interpreter for old text adventures. 68.39.174.238 15:08, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

• Delete per WP:HOAX, WP:NFT, and WP:NOTE. NSR77 ^T_C 15:17, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
• Strong Delete WP:CRYSTAL, WP:HOAX, WP:NOT Rackabello 15:50, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
• Delete per all of the above. Comcast home page even says, "you won't find information for this system anywhere else." —Travis^talk 23:36, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

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The result was delete. --Coredesat 03:25, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Casket match

Casket match (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) – (View AfD)

non notable match type, already covered on the larger list of match types minus the crufty "history" list. The article was prod'ed for the necessary five days before an anon contested it. In truth a redirect would probably be needed. «»bd(^talk _stalk) 12:52, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

• Delete Not enough notability to have its own article. The mention in the other article is sufficient - The history section is completely unsourced Corpx 15:46, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

• I say keep. The history section is sourced. Several of the entries link to a site with a comprehensive list of house show results taken from legitimate print sources, suhc as advertisments and sports sections. The non-sourced ones appeared on television, and cound be sourced easily. Add a 'citation needed' instead of deleting the article. Furthermore, the match type is notable. 75.129.169.49 20:16, 21 July 2007 (UTC) — 75.129.169.49 (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
• Delete per nom. The "history" section is nothing but listcruft. —Travis^talk 23:56, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
• Delete, its entry in the larger list article is sufficient. The list of every time it has taken place is listcruft. Nikki311 01:49, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
• Note: This debate has been included in the list of Wrestling-related deletions. —Nikki311 01:50, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
• Delete per nom. Darrenhusted 11:50, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
• Delete per nom. The article is nothing more than an unnecessary history list. It can easily be covered in the main list without its own page. A redirect should probably be made as there are a fair number of links to it. DrWarpMind 16:08, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
• Delete per nomination and due to sourcing problems. Yamaguchi先生 04:34, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
• Redirect to List of professional wrestling match types. Article is nothing but a list of matches, and Wikipedia is not a directory. Article should be in the same pile as Spin the Wheel, Make the Deal. --SteelersFan UK06 02:23, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

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The result was speedy keep - nominator changed mind and withdrew nomination. Non-admin closure. ~Matticus ^T_C 20:10, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Astrosaurs

Astrosaurs (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) – (View AfD)

This Article includes no information about the books. This is why i have nominated it for deletion. If information about some of the books can be displayed, The notice will be removed. (Woggy 08:51, 21 July 2007 (UTC))

• Speedy keep. The article contains plenty of information about the book series. Nominator has a history of putting articles up for deletion for lacking content (though in this case the article isn't even that short or lacking in content). Woggy, you would be helping more if you expanded the articles yourself, rather than trying to use AfD to catalyse other people into doing it for you. ~Matticus ^T_C 12:14, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
• Keep This book series is clearly notable in nature. It is also possible to verify the contents of this book. A google search shows up quite a few reliable hits for this subject. --Siva1979^{Talk to me} 12:18, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
• Strong Keep dumb but very notable. Nomination reasoning makes no sense. Andrew Lenahan - Starblind 12:42, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
• Speedy keep per above. Article needs improvement, not deletion. Book series is easily notable. Reasoning for nomination makes no sense. Ten Pound Hammer • ^{(((Broken clamshells • Otter chirps)))} 12:51, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
• Keep! per above, and WP:SNOW at this point. Charlie-talk to me-what I've done 15:20, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Why don't one of you help me improve it! I want some people to join in the discussion at the Astrosaurs article about ideas about improving it. With the help of other users, We can make this article great! I just wish people would join me. By the way Matticus 78 there is plenty information about the book series. But thats not what i meant. I meant that we, (Not me on my own) Should include the plot for all of the books except the ones that have not been released. Thats all i just hate it when people can't help or tell me their ideas. (Woggy 18:42, 21 July 2007 (UTC))

I just want some help. I want peoples suggestions about ideas for improving the article! I posted 2 messages for the discussion and they never got answered! If we all work together and discuss improvements this Article will be a masterpiece. Come on everyone we need to work together and discuss improvements! Isn't there anyone who is willing to do this? (Woggy 18:49, 21 July 2007 (UTC))

I am pretty sure i removed the notice. Because i thought i was wrong for nominating it. Who removed it? (Woggy 19:30, 21 July 2007 (UTC))

I also created this article under a different user Name but i had to change it to Woggy because i forgot my password. (Woggy 19:39, 21 July 2007 (UTC))

Well, the article is a relatively low-traffic one in an area of fairly limited interest, and therefore edits will be quite infrequent and the talk pages rarely read, so your comments may not be replied to or acted upon for many weeks, if at all. AfD is not a good place to go touting for help, first because nominating for deletion is not the best way to improve an article, and second because the people who regularly read and comment on AfD discussions will not necessarily be particularly knowledgeable about or interested in the subject area of the article in question (we tend to apply our knowledge of Wikipedia policies, and our skills at researching a possibly unfamiliar topic, to form our opinions).

Fortunately, the Wikipedia community has identified the problem of articles that need attention but are not often visited/edited and get overlooked. To help solve it we have "WikiProjects", a sort of central collaborative workspace where editors can find out about articles in a particular subject area that might need attention, discuss improvements, coordinate activities, rate the quality and importance of articles, and so on. In the case of Astrosaurs, the most appropriate place would be the Children's Literature WikiProject. If you visit the project page, you will find a list of editors who tend to concentrate on editing articles about children's books and related topics. Might I suggest you send a message requesting help to one or two of the active editors on the list at Wikipedia:WikiProject Children's literature? I am sure someone will be happy to lend a hand (but be patient - someone has to read your message first, and not everyone visits Wikipedia to edit every day). Since you said you have changed your mind about nominating this article for deletion, I will close the discussion and remove the notice on the article itself. If you need any more guidance, you are welcome to leave me a message, but I doubt I will be able to do much to help with the article itself because I don't know all that much about children's literature. Though for the record, your suggestion to add a short plot summary for each book in the series is exactly the kind of thing that would improve the article - if you've only read a couple of the books, then just do it for the ones you know, and it need only be a few short sentences. Good luck! ~Matticus ^T_C 20:07, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

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The result was delete. --Coredesat 03:29, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Zottman curl

Zottman curl (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) – (View AfD)

Wikipedia is not a manual or guidebook. Blueboy96 11:50, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

• Speedy delete - this is a blatant copy of the article from the website [18]--Mendors 11:55, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Hmmm, not as cut and dried, the author is Fitness Uncovered (talk · contribs). Definite WP:COI issues ... if he uploads another article that's a copy of an item on the Website, he'll be reported to WP:AIV as a role account. Blueboy96 12:08, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Very much cut and dried, they need to prove on their website that they are the authors of this article, or it's still a copyvio. Corvus cornix 04:28, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

• Delete per WP:NOT#HOWTO and WP:SOAP —Travis^talk 00:13, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

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The result was delete. Can't sleep, clown will eat me 07:44, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Famous Gouds

Famous Gouds (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) – (View AfD)

Just a list of people with nothing in common other than a surname. --ROGER ^TALK 11:31, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

• Delete if they were that famous, they'd all have articles. Lugnuts 12:40, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
• Delete per nom & Lugnuts. What do these people have in common besides sharing a banal surname? What next, List of famous Smiths, List of famous Kowalskis, List of famous Kims? Pure listcruft. --Targeman 13:43, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
• Weak Delete Actually, Goud is a cast in India. Their "backward cast" status means they were at a disadvantage compared to the other casts, so they technically had a tougher road. That said, I cant vote keep for an article that doesn't cite any sources. Corpx 15:45, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

• Comment Thanks for the clarification, I had no idea. The article should at least mention that and provide a link to Goud. --Targeman 16:26, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

• Delete per above, ref. Corpx. Bearian 16:10, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
• Delete as not Goud enough. (couldn't resist that) Clarityfiend 20:37, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

• Goud knows it's hard to resist :-) --Targeman 21:14, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

• Merge into Goud. I agree with Corpx (without whom we wouldn't know what the author was talking about) that there's no reason to keep something that's unsourced and doesn't explain that Goud is a caste. Mandsford 01:01, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
• Merge I think its better to merge with the Goud article and we can put citation tag in that article. If the people cant put any authenticated ref/link to the content (people) added to the article, then we can go ahead remove the content.

Daya Anjali (talk / contribs) 17:50, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

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The result was delete. --Coredesat 03:32, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] List of Nairs

List of Nairs (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) – (View AfD)

It's wikilinked and it repesents a great deal of work but it's still just a directory --ROGER ^TALK 11:17, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

• Delete Wikipedia is not a directory. This list is clearly one. --Siva1979^{Talk to me} 15:00, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
• Weak Delete - Tough one because Nair is a cast of Hinduism, and we have lots of List of Jewish _____ etc. I know WP:OTHERCRAPEXISTS :). An argument could be made that their upper class status helped them in their field(s). Corpx 15:42, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
• Weak Delete per above and other AfDs. At least this list has links. Bearian 16:12, 21 July 2007

(UTC)

• 'Comment:I am open-minded about this AFD for the moment but would like to find out more before taking a stand. I raised the question with the nominator (see Roger Davies' talk page) and he has speedily replied, though I still have some doubts. It's common sense that Wikipedia is not a Directory and that surnames like Goh, Smith, Davies, although the Davies may have a long ancestral history :-), etc should not be compiled into a list just because some bearers of these surnames (notable or not, wish to see themselves on the list). Some groups of people however do qualify (eg List of Jewish _____ mentioned by Corpx above). I would like some in-depth examination of the importance of the Nairs as a group before I decide whether they should be lumped with the Jews or with the Davies. Cheers.Ivygohnair 22:25, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
• Merge into Nair, since it's a caste. If it were simply a surname, I'd say delete. Mandsford 01:03, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

• That would be like merging "List of Famous Methodists" into the Methodists article. While cast is important to a degree, I dont think its as relevant as it was ~200 years ago. Besides, there's not much anyone can do if you include yourself into a cast even if you were not born into it. Corpx 01:43, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

• Not necessarily. I don't know how large the Nair caste is; it may or may not be larger than the Methodist church. There are a lot of castes in India; I'm not sure how many subdivisions of the Methodist Church exist, but Baptists are divided into Southern Baptists, Freewill Baptists, Primitive Baptists, etc. Nowadays, caste is still a part of heritage even if it's no longer part of the pecking order. Honestly, I'd never heard of the Nair caste, and the only ones I've heard of at all are at the opposite ends of the spectrum. Mandsford 22:16, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

• With all due respect to the people who wish to delete this list, some of you seem to be unacquainted with the actual topic on hand. Because "Nair" is not just a surname its a community of people that encompass many surnames. So if one were to delete this so called "list" they would also have to delete every other list on Wikipedia. There is a list of distinguished/famous Rajputs, Iyers, Ezhavas, Jews, Brahmins, jats etc there are countless lists on Wikipedia of people pertaining to eminent or accomplished people from a certain caste or community and most of them do not have proper citations, whilst this list of Nairs has many sources and references shown. Secondly NAIRS ARE NOT A CASTE they were a community. The word Nair in Ancient Kerala was a synonym for warrior and since they were traditionally a warrior clan they had their own army called the "Nair Pattalam" which is now called Nair Brigade this was the army of the king, there are historical cases where people derived from the lower castes or lower stratosphere were assimilated or inducted into the Nair Brigade if they showed skill in the art of warfare and thus acquired the surname of "Nair" which was conferred onto them by the king. Many of the surnames in the Nair community are actually titles and not to be confused with a caste thus when you say "Nair" It is most definitely a community or a race not a caste. Because there were Nairs who were royals/kings/lords, but also Nairs who were servants and held menial jobs, although traditionally they were a warrior clan. If anyone wants more information on this they can read this http://www.kerala.cc/keralahistory/index13.htm. So in conclusion i would say take all these points on board before you contemplate on deleting the list, and if you decide on deleting it 1. you merely delete the accomplishments of a community 2. You will have to delete the 1000 other such lists on Wikipedia from the list of Jews to Ezhavas. Because they too have made a list of eminent people from their community. Oh and by the way there is a * list of famous ezhavas * which is exactly the same as the list of Nairs. I wonder why no one tries to delete that? Even though that list doesn't show barely any references or citations as the List of Nairs. Its pretty sad that some insecure individuals show their hypocrisy and double standards in wanting to delete one list whilst not the others. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.38.248.35 (talk • contribs)

I'm the insecure individual who nominated this list. It was ignorance, not hypocrisy, that led to the Ezhavas escaping nomination. That has now been rectified (Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of Famous Ezhavas). I have also nominated Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Jewish volunteers in the Spanish Civil War for even-handedness. --ROGER ^TALK 06:58, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

• Nairs were all those things you described, but it has evolved into a cast of Hinduism now. I wouldn't mind if it only listed Nairs from their heyday (before/early british empire), but that would leave only 3. Everyone else listed on there is from late-British rule->modern day India era, when the "Nayanars" were just another cast in the social structure. Corpx 05:37, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

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The result was Speedily deleted by Philippe. Non-admin closure. Resolute 05:38, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] MyBoss

MyBoss (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) – (View AfD)

I believe the article is at best, about vapourware, at worst, a hoax. There is very little web-based evidence to support its existence other than that originating from this article, or from the very limited official web site referenced, which contains no corporate or meaningful technical datail Lynbarn 10:54, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

• Delete totally non-notable project. I'm not sure it's a hoax but it really doesn't matter because it fails WP:N anyway. MartinDK 11:12, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
• Neutral I know of company MyBoss (monitoring program for computers in classrooms in schools) but article is scarce and needs a rewrite or should get the chop.--Achidiac 11:17, 21 July 2007 (UTC) Achidiac (talk · contribs), Rdpaperclip (talk · contribs), T3Smile (talk · contribs), and 60.241.91.14 (talk · contribs) have been blocked as sock puppets. See Wikipedia:Suspected sock puppets/Achidiac. -- Jreferee t/c 17:04, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
• Delete looks like a hoax to me. Their website (hosted in Nauru looks like something slapped together in about 5 minutes, and of course no reliable sources. Andrew Lenahan - Starblind 12:31, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
• Speedy Delete No assertion of notability, no context Rackabello 15:52, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
• Delete. Looks like a hoax. If not, it's non-notable. Bart133 ^{(t) (c)} 16:14, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
• Delete per WP:CRYSTAL. Bearian 16:15, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

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The result was Speedy delete a7, no assertion of notability. NawlinWiki 18:49, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] SuperWookie

SuperWookie (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) – (View AfD)

Only a handful Ghits, most user created content. Unsigned band, just one album (no mention of market success) - hardly any reliable sources to establish notability. Fails WP:MUSIC. Creator probably has COI. Ayleuss 10:09, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

• Speedy delete A7. So tagged. Now, how long before they remove that tag too? MartinDK 10:23, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
• Speedy Delete; does not explain how this group is important. Marašmusïne_Talk 10:40, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
• Strong Delete I'm unsure about this qualifying for speedy deletion per A7, but it is certainly an article of an extremely NN subject. Rlest 10:51, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
• Speedy Delete Per above Rackabello 15:41, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
• Speedy Delete. Doesn't assert notability. It fails WP:BAND flagrantly anyway. Bart133 ^{(t) (c)} 16:16, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

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The result was delete. --Coredesat 03:33, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] June 10, 2007 anti-Israeli occupation protest

June 10, 2007 anti-Israeli occupation protest (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) – (View AfD)

Is a protest with 5000 people notable? There are no "big" media sources cited either. F 09:59, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Prodded before, prod removed.

• Delete First of all estimates range from 1000 people to 5000. Second, none of the sources are reliable in themselves since they are inherently POV. This is especially true for Indymedia. Unless someone can find some reliable secondary sources this should be deleted as news with no reliable secondary sources to establish notability. MartinDK 10:20, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
• Delete Minor jolly for hard left SDS loonies with no long term significance. The writer obviously doesn't have a clue either. Gaza is only occupied by Hamas at the moment. Nick mallory 11:52, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
• Delete per WP:NOT#NEWS - No historic notability Corpx 15:38, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
• Delete per nom, Corpx, and MartinDK. Bearian 16:17, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
• Delete as many protests with larger (much larger I mean) have no articles. If there was enough coverage, which I doubt because of the low number, it can be transwiki to Wikinews, although a very slim chance it will.--JForget 16:37, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

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The result was delete. --Coredesat 03:34, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Kangen Band

Kangen Band (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) – (View AfD)

References are missing. Note: The article's original creator has meanwhile also written an article about the individual described in Kangen Band as "Despite the size of his belly, he is actually carrying the softcopies of all Kangen Band's songs in his iPod, including those songs which has not yet being composed by the Band", claiming he has become homosexual because of a "former lady boss". See also Image:Kangen-band-oji.gif. High on a tree 09:01, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

• Delete per WP:MUSIC - This band fails all of them Corpx 15:37, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
• Delete - fails WP:MUSIC. Bart133 ^{(t) (c)} 16:17, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

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The result was redirect to New Bedford, Massachusetts. Jaranda ^{wat's sup} 23:03, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Normandin Middle School

Normandin Middle School (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) – (View AfD)

• Speedy delete. Non-noteable School. Stub article. End of, really. Dalejenkins 08:48, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
• Speedy delete. Based on its information and notability, I believe it should be deleted. (Woggy 08:59, 21 July 2007 (UTC))
• Delete A poorly written article compounded with notability concerns. It should be deleted. --Siva1979^{Talk to me} 09:45, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
• Delete microstub with no notability present. Andrew Lenahan - Starblind 12:33, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
• Speedy Delete A1 and A7 Rackabello 15:24, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
• Delete per above; not much at New Bedford, Massachusetts#Education either. Bearian 16:20, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
• Delete per WP:Notability and WP:NOT#DIR. VanTucky ^(talk) 22:14, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
• Delete. Length of article suggest that it should be appropriate to list the school with others into New Bedford, Massachussets if not done already--JForget 22:31, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
• Strong Keep I will put on a stub tag and category I would like to see the article have more than a day to be improved esp. since it is summer vacation and those most knowledgable about the subject are on vacation. Postcard Cathy 18:00, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

• You should not have to have people knowledgeable about a subject to be there, that's the entire point of WP:V. -Wooty [Woot?] [Spam! Spam! Wonderful spam!] 23:31, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

• Comment Woggy removed the above vote from AfD previously before my restoration of it. Mine is Neutral due to unfamiliarity about the subject. Nate 01:15, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

• Redirect to New Bedford, Massachusetts, until sufficient additional information can be provided to demonstrate notability for the school as a standalone article. No valid justification has been provided to ignore the choice of redirect rather than delete. Alansohn 02:24, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
• Note: This debate has been included in the list of Schools-related deletions. — But|seriously|folks  04:35, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
• Merge and Redirect to New_Bedford,_Massachusetts#Education. Already done. Dhaluza 16:29, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
• Merge and to the Education section of the New Bedford, Massachusetts article, which has been completed. Keep redirect in place with history in tact for GFDL compliancy. Yamaguchi先生 04:36, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
• Merge/Redirect per WP:LOCAL.  ALKIVAR™ ☢ 16:28, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
• Redirect and merge only the most encyclopedic material. There is absolutely no sensible reason not to provide a redirect in this and similar situations. Burntsauce 17:26, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

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The result was Delete, not verified, sources not forthcoming. Until(1 == 2) 05:05, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Muuse suldaan

Muuse suldaan (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) – (View AfD)

I could not find any independent verification of the importance of this clan; there are only two pages of google results, none of which I could use to assert notability, but many of which were in a language I don't read, so maybe someone else can affirm notability for this group. Prod removed without comment by creator. FisherQueen (Talk) 19:39, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

• Merge with Cisman Mahmoud Taprobanus 19:44, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so that consensus may be reached.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Fuhghettaboutit 07:55, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

• Delete I couldnt find any english sources either Corpx 15:36, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
• Delete per above Rackabello 15:47, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
• Dont Delete Taking in Mind The Poor Usage Of Internet In Somalia and The Family is part of the Great Clan of CIsman Mahmoud AmericanKnight 13:46, 26 july 2007 (UTc)
• Merge => Cisman Mahmoud as suggested above by Taprobanus. This is a topic for which it might be extremely difficult to find First World sources for. I think the most likely places would be in World Health Organization reports and the academic literature in social anthropology and linguistics. It's too bad we don't have a template to mark articles known for being difficult to properly source for legitimate reasons, such as noted by AmericanKnight. --User:Ceyockey (talk to me) 01:33, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

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The result was delete. Sr13 03:34, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Downley Lodge School of Speech and Drama

Downley Lodge School of Speech and Drama (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) – (View AfD)

Likely non notable school. No sources available to assert anything beyond its existence. Sorted as part of Wikipedia: Wikiproject Notability. Daniel J. Leivick 18:51, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so that consensus may be reached.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Fuhghettaboutit 07:56, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

• Delete. No assertion of notability and no significant coverage. Very, very few ghits that do not refer to Wikipedia or mirrors. --Malcolmxl5 13:29, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
• Speedy Delete No assertion of notability whatsoever Rackabello 15:46, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
• Delete per above. Bearian 16:22, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
• Delete per WP:N and WP:NOT#DIR. VanTucky ^(talk) 22:13, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

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The result was Keep. After examining the arguments, including the external links provided, I have come to the conclusion that the points made by those !voting "Keep" are more influential than those !voting "Delete", particularly those regarding the tagging of the article with {{Unreferenced}} or a related template ~ Anthøny 11:12, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Vexel

Vexel (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) – (View AfD)

Non-notable and unsourced article (it even admits it in the article body!). Kargath64 06:10, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

• Delete A google search brings out no reliable hits for this article. This article is also neologism in nature. --Siva1979^{Talk to me} 07:48, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
• Weak keep. While I don't currently see any reliable sources in the search, there are "about" 150,000 results according to google (and yes, I know how reliable that figure is, but I've clicked through 300 of them and there are still more to come). A random selection suggests that the majority are about this topic (with a small number concerned with a vehicle manufacturer, and another small quantity concerned with something called a "bill of exchange" that's used in Russia). This large number of articles suggests notability within the community, and given that notability, I feel the existing sources (while self published) are adequate to ensure verifiability. JulesH 10:46, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
• Keep Has anyone even put a sources tag on it? Perhaps give it time, or actually find sources you approve of. This is genuine, and this article is quite well-written and intriguing. Give it a little time, or better still, do some of the work. It's not like this is non- content, it's informative.Merkinsmum 11:55, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
• Delete no notability now. I looked through google news and found nothing relevant. There's just not enough notability to keep the article now Corpx 15:35, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
• Keep has lots of Google hits. Google News is entirely the wrong place to search for this term. - Fuzheado | Talk 20:58, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

• Google hits does not equal notability Corpx 21:02, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

• Strong Delete Attempt to introduce new neologism, as even admitted in the article text. Many of the Google hits you'd be getting are just from deviantART's metadata.
• Weak Keep - it seems the community at vexel.org has about 6000 members (how many active, etc I don't know), so that seems to be an active community interested in an emerging art form. It seems to me not a small community for an emerging form, either. Smmurphy^(Talk) 03:42, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
• Transwiki to Wiktionary and Request treatment at Wikinews. Articles of this kind help to delineate the boundaries of Wikipedia versus her sister projects. The vexel concept as an emerging tool for artistic expression is simply in too early a stage to warrant encyclopedic treatment; as noted at http://news.deviantart.com/article/27110/ (probably the closest to a reliable source currently available for this concept) the definition of the term and the how-to around use of the graphic method are still a matter of debate ... it is an emerging art technique. --User:Ceyockey (talk to me) 00:50, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

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The result was delete. Sr13 03:35, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Thekke Puthen Church

Thekke Puthen Church (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) – (View AfD)

This article is about a local parish church in India. No sources are provided, I could find no Google hits for the church's name other than Wikipedia and its mirrors, and I could not even find the church listed in the directory of the denomination's parishes in its state (see [19] and [20]). Thus, the article has problems with verifiability and lack of reliable sources. I submitted this article for proposed deletion a few months ago, but the PROD tag was removed at that time. The justification for notability was that it is the only Malankara Orthodox parish church dedicated to St. Youhanan Mulk, but I don't believe that qualifies as notability in the sense intended by WP:ORG. I recommend a delete. Metropolitan90 06:03, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

• Delete per lack of notability. Looks like the church was built by a local family and there's not much else to it Corpx 15:33, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
• Delete no way to verify notability Rackabello 15:45, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
• Delete per above. Also, i's possibly not even the only chuch named for that saint, as noted in the article. Too many red links, WP:V and WP:RS issues. Bearian 16:24, 21 July 2007 (UTC) Bearian 16:24, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
• Delete per WP:N. VanTucky ^(talk) 22:12, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

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The result was delete. --Coredesat 03:36, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Philippians 4:13

Philippians 4:13 (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) – (View AfD)

Not sure how this particular writing is notable outside its particular "epistle" To clarifiy, I'm not seeing notability for this particular verse on its own. Navou 06:02, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

• Delete Not notable in and of itself as a single passage. Wikidudeman ^(talk) 06:15, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
• Delete - compare and contrast with John 3:16, which is notable in itself - Alison ☺ 06:41, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
• Delete This is clearly a non-notable passage in itself. --Siva1979^{Talk to me} 07:49, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
• Speedy Delete 1) I can't believe we'd want to jump on the slippery slope of an article on every single verse of the bible that someone decides is notable. 2) the article is inherently POV simply because it seems based on one (and only one) english-language translation of the verse. 3) Redundancy: the passage is listed on the main Phillipians article as a notable verse already -Markeer 12:44, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
• Delete and salt as bible-cruft. 70.55.85.148 12:55, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
  • Why salt? ~ Wikihermit 18:15, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, I'm a little curious about this also. In my opinion, the article is not a recreation, and in the future, if sources are discovered to justify notability, I do not want its creation precluded. Why salt? Navou 19:14, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Philippians 4 should be enough. 70.55.91.131 08:19, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

• There's no need to SALT this article - Alison ☺ 20:03, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

• Thou shalt not commit biblecruft (Targeman 24:7). Send this article to Hell and mercifully burn its author at the stake. --Targeman 13:56, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
• Delete Do we need an article on every verse of the Bible? Rackabello 15:23, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
• Delete per above. No cites since the 4th C. A.D.? Bearian 16:27, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
• Delete Unfortunately there is not enough information on this verse yet, if enough can be gathered in the future, this verse is notable enough, in my opinion, to warrant its own article, but, for now, there is not enough content. --WillMak050389 17:30, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
• Delete per Markeer. Additionally, no reliable sources with significant coverage prove the individual notability of this passage. VanTucky ^(talk) 22:11, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
• weak delete but certainly do not salt there is significant written commentary on every verse of the bible, and perhaps someone will do these articles on some of the key verses properly. . DGG (talk) 05:11, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
• KEEP:but if it must be deleted I agree with what's said above ("recreate when enough information").--Hornetman16 18:12, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
• Delete per Rackabello, Wikipedia is not the bible. Darrenhusted 09:58, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
  • No but we do Document the notable verses.--Hornetman16 20:56, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
• Redirect to Epistle to the Philippians. Does not have an extensive history of notability, as some individual passages/verses of the New Testament do. Pastordavid 21:23, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
  • Pastor David, since your a pastor you should know this is one of the most well-quoted verses in the Bible and one of the most well known. event though it doesn't have much information to the article. It still deserves it's own page exactly like John 3:16 does.--Hornetman16 03:34, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
    • While I do not care to get into an extensive debate here, let me say that I respectfully disagree. (A) It was not ever a lynch-pin verse in the early theological debates of the church, such as John 1:1 and the Great Commission; (B) it was never a doctrine-defining verse, such as the Words of Institution; (C) it has not been the object of modern scholarly debate, such as 1 Corinthians 11; (D) nor does it have a secure place in our cultural vernacular, such as John 3:16. I am glad that you find it personally meaningful, as do I. However, devotional value is not the same thing as encyclopedic notability. Pastordavid 16:12, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
      • Δοξα σοι ο Θεος! it's nice to see a pastor capable of a reasoned, encyclopedic approach to the Bible. Kudos to you, Pastor David. :-) --Targeman 16:26, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
        • The difference between me and you, Pastor David, is that your Luthuren (or however you spell it) and I'm Pentecostal. It mean a whole lot more in my church.--Hornetman16 20:41, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
          • Actually, that has nothing to do with it. The use of Scripture in theological development from 33-1517 has nothing to do with whether or not I am Lutheran (A & B above). Since then, it still is not a topic of debate among modern biblical scholars (C above). It is not a part of the broader cultural vocabulary (E). Further, it is not doctrine-defining even in the modern Pentecostal movement - which instead focuses on places like 1 Corinthians 12 and 14. "It means a lot" is not the same thing as encyclopedic notability - that is, "it means a lot" is a subjective value statement. As I noted above, it "means a lot" to me as well. But in neither of the traditions in question is it a doctrine-defining, or church-defining, verse. Pastordavid 20:57, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
            • I'll say it this last time. IT'S NOTABLE, BECAUSE IT'S ONE OF THE MOST QUOTED VERSES IN THE BIBLE.--Hornetman16 21:41, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
              • Unfortunately, there is not a shred of reliable, independent evidence to suggest that provided. VanTucky ^(talk) 21:46, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
                • What the heck does indepenence have to do with it?--Hornetman16 21:50, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
                  • Hornetman - step back and chill out for a moment. Please. - Alison ☺ 21:52, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

(unindent) Notability is not hear-say or opinion, it is something to be verified in reliable, independent sources. Sources with a clear conflict of interest or which are not generally known as independent and reliable are not acceptable verifications of notability. VanTucky ^(talk) 21:56, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

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The result was Speedy Deleted by User:Philippe Corpx 15:31, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Continuous Ink Systems and Photographers

Continuous Ink Systems and Photographers (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) – (View AfD)

Advert dressed up as a chatty article. -- RHaworth 05:47, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

• Speedy Delete spam, tagged Rackabello 06:09, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
• Strong delete per nom. Wikidudeman ^(talk) 06:15, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
• Speedy delete Blatant vanispamcruftisement. Astronomical COI issues as well. Blueboy96 11:16, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

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The result was speedy delete by Philippe, copyright violation. Non-admin closure. Blueboy96 11:14, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Towards an Egyptian National Migration Policy

Towards an Egyptian National Migration Policy (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) – (View AfD)

Original research. -- RHaworth 05:19, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

• Delete. This is an opinion essay, not an encyclopedia article. Zetawoof_(ζ) 05:34, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
• Strong Delete Obvious original essay.
• Speedy Delete Likely a copyvio, see [21], if not spam, also WP:NOR and WP:NOT Rackabello 06:01, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
• Strong delete Per above. Wikidudeman ^(talk) 06:15, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

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The result was delete without prejudice toward a redirect. Can't sleep, clown will eat me 07:39, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Most ancient common ancestor

Most ancient common ancestor (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) – (View AfD)

The article is based on original research. The name of the article appears to be coined by the author.

• Article does not cite real sources to support the so-called 'most ancient common ancestor'. The pbs page cited in is merely describing how Lucy (Australopithecus) is a common ancestor to various lineages of hominids. Clearly they meant 'most recent common ancestor' in the article. It was a typo.
• Most 'ancient' common ancestor does not make sense. Clearly, the most 'ancient' common ancestors of all human (or for that sake, between you and me) is the first self-replicating RNA. See the book The Ancestor's Tale.
• The article is clearly written as an attack on Recent single origin hypothesis. The author should be editing Multiregional hypothesis instead of creating your own article.
• The author does not seem to understand what Most recent common ancestor, Y-chromosomal Adam and Mitochondrial Eve are, and what they really mean. Mitochondrial_Eve#Eve_and_the_Out-of-Africa_theory clearly discusses some of the issues the author raised in this new article. Fred Hsu 05:17, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

• Strong Delete Regardless of what the article specifically says, overall it's clearly an essay, and pretty much entirely original research, and should be deleted as such. User:Calgary 21 July 2007
• Keep The term does exist, and it's a pretty simple concept which therefore needs a sourced definition. There's no need to delete, just a complete rewrite. The MACA is always defined relative to some group, e.g. for all animals it is considered to be some sort of sponge[22] -- rewrite in progress! . --Michael C. Price ^talk 08:20, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

That two websites incorrectly used Most ancient common ancestor when they should have used Most recent common ancestor does not make this a real term. As I said earlier, most ancient common ancestor for you and I is the very first self-replicating RNA. Please think about it. Fred Hsu 15:38, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

• Delete 92 ghits for the term. Logically, what is described is the most recent common ancestor, which gets 117,000 ghits. JulesH 10:48, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Still no reason to delete. Do a redirect then if they are synonyms. --Michael C. Price ^talk 11:15, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Comment Antonyms are not synonyms. They mean the opposite, not the same. Edison 21:12, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

• Keep I've read worse here. Could we maybe see this article expanded? Thanks. Anthony Chidiac --Achidiac 11:22, 21 July 2007 (UTC) Achidiac (talk · contribs), Rdpaperclip (talk · contribs), T3Smile (talk · contribs), and 60.241.91.14 (talk · contribs) have been blocked as sock puppets. See Wikipedia:Suspected sock puppets/Achidiac. -- Jreferee t/c 17:05, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

Notice that 'writing style' was not one of the reasons I listed as reasons for deletion. This article is factually incorrect. It is simply wrong and should be deleted. Fred Hsu 15:35, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

• • article quality has nothing to do with the deletion process (can we post this in giant letters somewhere please?) shoddy articles on valid topics should be cleaned up, not deleted. This one is unsalvageable since its very title is unsalvageable. dab (𒁳) 18:01, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
• Delete per JulesH for looking up the Most Prevalent Common Ancestor Term. The citations are for some decently written articles that happen to use the same combination of four words that fit in the context they are writing about. No assertion or citation suggesting this is a scientifically prevalent term or even a particularly popular term. -Markeer 12:49, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
• Delete Unencyclopedic for example:

For all living animals it is considered to be some sort of sponge.

You get the impression it is a kitchen sponge.Muntuwandi 13:02, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

• Merge into one or more related articles. There's not much to salvage but what's there shouldn't be lost. Category:Phylogenetics has some good merge candidates, including Clade and Most recent common ancestor. Keep only if the article is vastly improved between now and the AfD close. As it is, the article doesn't even do a good job of defining the term. If it weren't for the other articles to merge into, it would be Improve fast, startover, or delete. davidwr/(talk)/(contribs)/(e-mail) 13:30, 21 July 2007 (UTC) see below

Perhaps the latter? Extremely sexy 14:40, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

• Merge. As per the previous user. Extremely sexy 14:42, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Please do not merge until someone comes up with a clear definition of this term which makes sense. Please also cite real sources for this term. Currently cited sources talk about most recent common ancestor which is already well written in its own article. What can we add to that article that is not already there? Fred Hsu Fred Hsu 15:32, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

The fact that the grammatically-challenged may refer to it as the "most ancient common ancestor". Sohelpme 19:51, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

• Weak Delete - Article just contains a definition now and that's it, which could be construed as violation of WP:NOT#DICT. I dont think we're losing much to start over Corpx 15:30, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
• Delete and merge - if there is anything of value here it should be merged into one of the other main articles. This is definitional in scope, which is not the purpose of Wikipedia. --Storm Rider ^(talk) 18:26, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
• Delete to get unsourced, OR/POV essay out of the page history, then create Redirect to most recent common ancestor and add a note there like "sometimes erroneously referred to as most ancient common ancestor". Compare [23] to [24]. The "most ancient common ancestor" of any set of living things is the world's first living single cell--not all that interesting or important. Sohelpme 19:51, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment Unlike WP:BLP, copyright issues, and a few other things, it is not necessary to hide original research through deletion or edit-masking. It may be convenient or even A Good Thing but it is not necessary. I'm sure there are lots of articles in Wikipedia that were OR at one point until someone cleaned them up. Those edits remain in the history unless someone bothered to remove them. davidwr/(talk)/(contribs)/(e-mail) 01:39, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
• Redirect per Sohelpme. Has very little content which in fact should be in most recent common ancestor. Dan Gluck 19:55, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
• Reminder: hey folks, you are now looking at a completely trimmed down version of the article, if you simply click on the article link. The original revision which I talked about in my deletion nomination is THIS ONE. Fred Hsu 20:19, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
• Revert and Merge the original version Fred Hsu mentioned above at 20:19, 21 July 2007 (UTC) with Multiregional hypothesis and redirect. Thanks for bringing this to our attention. davidwr/(talk)/(contribs)/(e-mail) 21:05, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment: After Merging, delete and replace with a disambiguation page, such as the one I posted on the article talk page. davidwr/(talk)/(contribs)/(e-mail) 14:21, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
• Delete as complete nonsense, or Redirect to Most recent common ancestor to assist people who type the opposite of what they mean. Current evolutionary theory would say that all species have the same most ancient common ancestor, perhaps a single cell organism in a primordial pool. Most recent common ancestor would make sense. This is not a term with sources to show it is used in the literature and if not a hoax is at least original research. Edison 21:09, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
• Comment Even if this is not original research as claimed, any useful content in both the old and new versions should be merged into existing articles. davidwr/(talk)/(contribs)/(e-mail) 21:19, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment: Update: Any useful content that can be sourced, that is. davidwr/(talk)/(contribs)/(e-mail) 14:27, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
• Comment I will restore the Fred Hsu 20:19, 21 July 2007 version sometime after 0300 unless someone objects on the article talk page or the current article is drastically improved. davidwr/(talk)/(contribs)/(e-mail) 21:19, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
• Comment Er... folks, it's not my version. I added original research template first. Then I added the nominated for deletion template. I think the entire article is simply nonsensical. There is nothing to be salvaged from the original article. I posted the Reminder comment earlier to give newcomers to this thread a heads-up, in case you mistake the current version for what I nominated, in which case my nomination comments would make no sense. Fred Hsu 23:19, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
• Comment Hearing no objections and seeing no improvement, I reverted to last version by Fred Hsu. Any comments made here between 08:39, 21 July 2007 and 04:38, 22 July 2007 may be referring to a rewrite started by 08:39, MichaelCPrice at 08:39, 21 July 2007. Which bore very little resemblance to the version that is now up. The version that is now up is the same as the version that was up when the AfD started. davidwr/(talk)/(contribs)/(e-mail) 04:45, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

Comment It looks like everyone above, except the original nominator Fred Hsu, Calgary, and the man who attempted a good-faith rewrite Michael C. Price, stated their opinion while the rewrite was up. The closing admin should take this into consideration. IF the consensus is for deletion based on OR grounds rather than other issues, I recommend instead reverting to the latest version of the rewrite and hiding the OR-version edits. Personally though, I think the OR version is more salvageable than the rewrite. The rewrite has issues of quality and readability. The text needs to be vastly improved before it should be placed in the main body of the encyclopedia. The OR version just has issues of OR, adding sources and citations should fix the problem. See Multiregional hypothesis for potential source material. davidwr/(talk)/(contribs)/(e-mail) 12:25, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

Comment: the article should be deleted. The term simply does not exist. Multiregional hypothesis references are irrelevant to this article. If this article exists simply to support such hypothesis, then it should be part of the multiregional hypothesis. Please let us not create an article with fake, nonsensical scientific name with body text which talks about something completely different. No amount of out-of-context citations can salvage this article. Fred Hsu 13:13, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

• Comment: At best, I found 4 sources on Google. These sources are ambiguous and may in fact not be sources at all. See the article talk page for details. In contrast, I found 8 sources that use this term in the context of Clade and 1 that used it in the context of geneology. davidwr/(talk)/(contribs)/(e-mail) 14:27, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
• REQUEST for closing admin: Userfy the talk page if the article is deleted. There's some stuff on there I want to hang on to for a bit. Don't leave it where it is, if the article is recreated as a redirect to something else, a stale talk page will be confusing. davidwr/(talk)/(contribs)/(e-mail) 14:34, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
• Still delete. The article may be substantially different from the one that I previously commented on, but now it looks like original research, rather than a duplicate of existing information with the wrong title. There are two references in the article, but neither seems to be discussing the idea proposed by the article, which to me seems nonsensical. JulesH 16:44, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
• delete. the term is used (a) incorrectly, by authors who don't know what they are talking about, and (b) casually, within some understood context. nothing to do with what the article pretends to be about. Arguments for Multiregional hypothesis can be discussed at that article. dab (𒁳) 17:59, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
• comment the concept that the original author is apparently trying to describe is that of the identical ancestors point, which could indeed be split off the mrca article as an independent topic. dab (𒁳) 18:08, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] arbitrary break

• Comment dab gutted removed most of the unsourced material from the article again but this time left at least some of the original. I moved what's left into a section and turned the header into a disambiguation section, with some citations to back it up. The article is no longer unsourced original research. However, the section that's left of the original is and remains tagged as such. davidwr/(talk)/(contribs)/(e-mail) 19:21, 22 July 2007 (UTC) edited davidwr/(talk)/(contribs)/(e-mail) 21:18, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
• Delete as unsourced (a non-scientific popular publication and a throwaway, uncited reference in a scientific one?) original research. The use of unmoved mover doesn't help it either, makes it look like creationist BS. The original article was worse, with extensive use of first-person plurals - POV OR. WLU 13:54, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
• Delete. "Most Ancient Common Ancestor" is not sourced and the article gives one no idea what it's supposed to mean. It just says that the two things it might mean - it doesn't. There doesn't seem to be anything worth saving here by merging into another article. Perhaps a redirect to most recent common ancestor or abiogenesis. Bgplayer 19:28, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
• Delete There is article Last universal ancestor. This article does not seem to have any useful content. Biophys 02:21, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
• comment: I feel that the references davidwr mentions are really referring to Last common ancestor. So I favor redirection to Last common ancestor now. I have enhanced the MRCA article to talk about different between MRCA and Last Common Ancestor (LCA) and point to LCA article, the same way the MRCA article talks about the identical ancestors point. Fred Hsu 04:27, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Resolution

I know people usually don't vote on deletion nominations. But given that we have wildly different opinions here, I thought perhaps we should quickly do an informal survey to see where people stand. Please don't post opinions in this section. Just put your signature below your choice. Add your own if you want. Fred Hsu 04:27, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

• redirect to Last common ancestor:
  • Fred Hsu 04:27, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
  • Extremely sexy 11:45, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
  • --Michael C. Price ^talk 20:59, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
• redirect to Clade:
  • davidwr/(talk)/(contribs)/(e-mail) 12:54, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
• delete:
  • WLU 15:21, 25 July 2007 (UTC) (redirect is second choice)
  • JulesH 16:16, 25 July 2007 (UTC) (although I would also support a redirect to most recent common ancestor)
  • dab (𒁳) 20:55, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
• keep:
• Anything but keep:
  • Corpx 16:21, 25 July 2007 (UTC) (I'm split on the merge/redirect issue, but I definitely don't think this should exist).

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The result was Speedy Delete and Salt enough is enough. Non admin closure Rackabello 06:35, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Young son

Young son (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) – (View AfD)

Faster deletion contested, so here we are. No claims of charts, tours, awards, primary-topic press, or anything else to meet WP:MUSIC or WP:BIO. The purpose of Wikipedia is to document (previously attained) notability, not to try and help create it. With no independent refs also fails WP:VERIFY and, given the contributor's username and that it's been speedied and recreated three times here and five times at Young Son, probably has WP:AUTO and/or WP:COI issues, as well (and may need salt). Sohelpme 04:32, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

• Delete: no credible references included, and does not pass notability standards. - Kneel17 04:48, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
• Delete No real assertion of notability, article has been speedied several times before. NN artist who recorded a NN album released by a NN label. Caknuck 05:48, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
• Strong Speedy Delete and Salt as recreated deleted material. Also fails WP:N and WP:MUSIC as well as other issues noted by the nominator Rackabello 06:11, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
• Delete Not notable. Per above. Wikidudeman ^(talk) 06:16, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

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The result was Speedy delete & salt (non-admin closure, article already deleted by Philippe) — Caknuck 07:03, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Soul Inspired: Hip Hop's Revival

Soul Inspired: Hip Hop's Revival (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) – (View AfD)

Few month-old 'debut album' of aspiring rapper Young son listed above. 'Good luck with that, kid' and all, but... Faster deletion contested, so here we are. No claims of charts, tours, awards, primary-topic press, or anything else to meet WP:MUSIC or WP:BIO. The purpose of Wikipedia is to document (previously attained) notability, not to try and help create it. With no independent refs also fails WP:VERIFY and, given the contributor's username and that it's been speedied and recreated several times, probably has WP:AUTO and/or WP:COI issues, as well. Sohelpme 04:32, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

• Delete No real assertion of notability, article has been speedied twice before (and various permutations of Young son have been speedied multiple times. NN record recorded by a NN artist and released by a NN label. Caknuck 05:47, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
• Delete per nom. Wikidudeman ^(talk) 06:16, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

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The result was withdrawn by nominator. ~ Wikihermit 15:41, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Douglas E. Winter

Douglas E. Winter (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) – (View AfD)

non notable writer and lawyer. ~ Wikihermit 04:19, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

• Delete: Although he has written a few books, none of them are notable. Same is true for WP:BIO: doesn't pass and has no sources. - Kneel17 04:52, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
• Keep At least perform some due diligence before nominating. A simple Google search found lots more he wrote, and lots more on him. He has 36,000 Ghits. Two good references are all thats needed. He also has a dozen incoming links. He has 142 Google News archive hits for reviews he wrote for the Washington Post. He has 187 hits in Google Books. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) 05:52, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
• Keep He's written one novel, four non fiction books including biographies of Stephen King and Clive Barker, contributed short stories to numerous horror anthologies and contributed lots of reviews. The novel, "Run" was reviewed in the Guardian and the Independent on Sunday among others [25]. Short of actually turning into a werewolf himself what else does he have to do to be notable here? Nick mallory 06:53, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
• Keep per above. Author of multiple notable works, therefore best to have an article on him. JulesH 11:01, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
• Weak Keep I'd like to know more about the guy. Benefit of the doubt it should be worked on further - guys life, motivations, and - achievements. Anthony Chidiac --Achidiac 11:26, 21 July 2007 (UTC) Achidiac (talk · contribs), Rdpaperclip (talk · contribs), T3Smile (talk · contribs), and 60.241.91.14 (talk · contribs) have been blocked as sock puppets. See Wikipedia:Suspected sock puppets/Achidiac. -- Jreferee t/c 17:05, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

• Extremely strong keep Are you kidding? I've been reading his stuff for nigh on twenty years! He's VERY notable in horror and science fiction circles. What a strange nomination. Rhinoracer 11:59, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
• Keep. His books have been nominated for fairly notable awards: that's more than enough for me. Charlie-talk to me-what I've done 15:29, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

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The result was delete. Sr13 03:37, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Baseball trivia

Baseball trivia (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) – (View AfD)

"Trivia" in the name gives it away. Basically a pretty clear violation of WP:NOT a collection of random information. Maybe this can be salvaged by merging it elsewhere? Calliopejen1 03:58, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

• Delete Pretty clear cut case of an indiscriminate list of information. Spellcast 04:12, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
• Keep It would be better to organize this article to provide a logical grouping of facts. The subject in question is notable in itself as well. Thus this article should be re-written and not be deleted. --Siva1979^{Talk to me} 04:23, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
• Delete Wikipedia is not a collection of trivia, even if it is trivia that I personally like. Resolute 04:47, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
• Delete per Spellcast and Resolute. Maxamegalon2000 05:04, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
• Speedy delete per nom comments. 08:50, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
• Strong delete Cruft. Pity there isn't a speedy for this. Blueboy96 11:41, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
• Delete. Trivia. Period. Keb25 11:43, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
• Merge Time to chop up the contents into little bits and insert them into relevant articles each line talks about per WP:HTRIVIA.--Kylohk 12:11, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
• Delete per WP:DICDEF, since in theory the article's purpose is to define the term "Baseball Trivia" as "Trivia about Baseball", and that's it. EVERYTHING else in the article seems to be an excuse to drop lots and lots of baseball trivia somewhere because it's just so fun. If there were only one example (after all, only one is needed to clarify a definition), and the article then went on to describe the popularity and history of baseball fans who are obsessed with trivia, I could be persuaded that this is attempting to depict a sociological phenomenon. However, this is not the case. -Markeer 12:55, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
• Delete' grouping of mildly related facts in trivia, although this good trivia compared to the "in popular culture" trivia Corpx 15:28, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
• Delete as the title said so, only a trivia-filled article.--JForget 22:34, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
• Delete - as per virtually everyone above, and the fact that perhaps half of this information is not trivia, but basic baseball statistical records. - fchd 06:39, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

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The result was delete. --Coredesat 03:37, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Jewish defense

Jewish defense (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) – (View AfD)

article is origional research and article has no content. Not sure this is even a real concept. Sefringle^Talk 03:44, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

• Note: This debate has been included in the list of Judaism-related deletions. —Sefringle^Talk 03:48, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Delete (a) Used in this sense, it appears to be a neologism. Most Google hits for the phrase that don't find the JDL or the JDO seem to be organizations from Mandatory Palestine. (b) Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of information. — Malik Shabazz (Talk | contribs) 04:15, 21 July 2007 (UTC) Delete, unsourced neologism. 6SJ7 16:20, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

• Move to a disambiguation page, which is what it is. Bearian 16:31, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
• Delete Author presupposes that "Jewish Defense is an umbrella term referring to the defense of the Jewish People through any and all means necessary" without any source for that idea. A term has to be well-known for there to be one meaning, let alone an ambiguity. Mandsford 01:12, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
• Delete As far as I know (or informed by this article), this is not such a notable, self-standing concept. HG | Talk 18:07, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
• Delete Little content and original research.Type 40 16:02, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

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The result was delete. Sr13 01:12, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] List of Deceased Wrestlers

List of Deceased Wrestlers (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) – (View AfD)

I don't see how this article has any relevancy. Perhaps it could be made into a category but I doubt that as well. This article's existence doesn't seem to serve any purpose in my opinion and the relevant information could simply exist within the pages of each individual mentioned. Wikidudeman ^(talk) 03:32, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

• Delete Hopelessly impossible to complete, indiscriminate. What's next? List of dead people? Resolute 04:48, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
• Delete. Absolute waste of space. While there have been too many wrestlers who died young, this page misses the point. WWGB 08:07, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
• Delete per above. For the love of GAWD, someone lock the damn page! Lugnuts 08:34, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
• Delete based on the fact that dead and being a wrestler are loosely associated topics and thus this is listcruft. MartinDK 09:42, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
• Delete Unmaintainable listcruft. Pity there isn't a speedy for something like this. Blueboy96 13:48, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
• Bury this per nom. --Targeman 14:04, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
• Abstain Delete if you must, but I see no difference from this and other articles (e.g. List of people who have disappeared or List of racing drivers who died in racing crashes) It is a similar list that CNN has broadcast on Nancy Grace. The title should be contain under age 65, it was an oversight on my part. Dom316 14:18, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Everyone dies eventually. Not all racing drivers die in races. You could draw a comparison if this was "List of wrestlers who died in wrestling matches", but it isn't. Equally, not everyone 'disappears' — in fact, it's really quite unusual (and often even notable on a per-person basis) for someone to fall off the face of the Earth. Angus Lepper^{(T, C, D)} 15:04, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

• Delete — As per my comment above: everyone dies eventually. This is little more than a list of wrestlers. Had they died actually 'in the ring' (or whatever the jargon is), then it would serve a purpose. Angus Lepper^{(T, C, D)} 15:04, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
• Note - since this AfD, the article in this nomination has been redirected to List of Wrestlers Died Under Age 65, which is a redirect of List of Wrestlers Who Died Under Age 65, which is also up for nomination. --tgheretford (talk) 20:32, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
• Delete absolute listcruft.--JForget 22:35, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

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The result was delete. Can't sleep, clown will eat me 07:35, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Ron Paul controversies

note to AfD closer: if this gets deleted please first fold it back in to the Ron Paul#Controversies section as this is being used as a WP:SUMMARY main article at present. BenB4 09:47, 21 July 2007 (UTC) Nevermind, got it. BenB4 13:56, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

Ron Paul controversies (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) – (View AfD)

POV fork created for/because of an apparent content dispute in the main article. By definition this article can never be NPOV. — Coren ^(talk) 02:40, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

• Wait This article was just created. Please give it some time and judge it on its own merits/potential. Read this in the meantime if you wish.--Daveswagon 02:44, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
• Weak Delete - it doesn't have it's own merits; it's a POV fork from Ron Paul's main article, because people there can't come to an agreement about what should or should not be included. The article's objection doesn't hold any water here. --Haemo 02:49, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
• Strong delete. Obvious POV fork. Likely a speedy candidate. Realkyhick 02:54, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
• Delete Not a POV fork, but certainly a content fork. And forking is not a speediable offense. Blueboy96 02:58, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
• Comment Content is forking because of Anappealtoheaven's unilateral edits. A review of Talk:Ron Paul and the user's talk page will show such a history. And how is this any more POV than Hillary Rodham Clinton controversies or Controversies of Rudy Giuliani?--Daveswagon 03:05, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
• Weak delete I agree with above, Not really justifiable as it's own article and seems to be a POV fork. Wikidudeman ^(talk) 03:34, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
• Delete per above. Montco 03:51, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
  • Changing to neutral but leaning merge based on Turtlescrubber's suggestion. Comments and attitude by Anappealtoheaven indicate that there is more than meets the eye in this debate. Montco 15:32, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
    • I'll modify that further that the 9/11 stuff, while there is no evidence that Ron Paul is a member of the conspiracy crowd, as long as his comments are verifiable, they should be included in his article. It just needs to be left in the context of controversial comments that he has made, rather than some involvement in the 9/11 truth movement. Montco 15:53, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
• Comment Content is no longer forked. Could a revised justification for deletion (if any) be issued?--Daveswagon 03:58, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
• Keep This was an attempt at WP:SUMMARY style. The several ardent admitted supporters who are heavily editing and biasing the Ron Paul article have deleted the material in this new sub-article, tried to relegate it to footnotes, and have tried to rewrite it in a biased manner, just in the past couple weeks. BenB4 04:16, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Changed to Delete per Turtlescrubber below, agreed. BenB4 13:56, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

• • A summary was my intention -- and to detail the controversy surrounding a U.S. Congressman and presidential candidate being played out across many major news outlets and blogs.--Daveswagon 04:19, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
• STRONG DELETE Your summary does not reverse or invalidate any of the arguments for deletion. A speedy DELETION is in order Anappealtoheaven 04:35, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
  • No, the fact that the content is no longer forked does.--Daveswagon 04:43, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
    • Strong Delete Daveswagon and BenB4 are manufacturing controversy and reposting "political position" content OUT-OF-CONTEXT and moving it up in the article to unfairly prejudice readers. Their edits have many characteristics of a HOAX and should be moved completely off of wikipedia. These lies are NOT good enough to publish at uncyclopedia.org. Why are we allowing such a forum for this nonsense on WIKIPEDIA? Delete, Delete, Delete this is silly stuff. Anappealtoheaven 15:25, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

• Delete Blatant violation of NPOV. --Serge 05:34, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
• Merge first part, delete the restMainly manufactured controversies, but I have noticed how the real controversy (newsletter remarks) continually gets erased from the main page. Turtlescrubber 14:05, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
• Keep per Blueboy96 and BenB4, as a valid article about a notable politician. Bearian 16:35, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
• Delete violates NPOV. And if this is what Wikipedia's gonna be used for, that'll be the end of this site as a neutral fact-based encyclopedia.TruthGal 05:32, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
• Weak delete in light of Turtlescrubber's reasoning--Daveswagon 21:28, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
• Comment. There is no consistent practice. Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Fred Thompson controversies just resulted in a 'keep' after a lot of differing opinions. Hillary Rodham Clinton controversies, which had been around for some time, was recently dismantled, with its contents distributed into various HRC-related articles. Wasted Time R 22:16, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
• Strong delete While I recently supported the "Keep" of the similar Fred Thompson article, it included many more controversies than this, and ones that wouldn't fit into the main article. These could fit into the main article and there are only three of them.--Gloriamarie 03:30, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
• Strong Delete Inherently POV unsalvageable--Ted-m 00:11, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
• Delete - Obvious fork, it has no merit that the section in the main article hasn't got, this only serves to broadcast certain authors' opinions. --Joffeloff 13:05, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

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The result was speedy delete by Jimfbleak, A7. Non-admin closure. Blueboy96 11:10, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] 50 UK Campus Conversation Topics

50 UK Campus Conversation Topics (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) – (View AfD)

Advert for non-notable book. The author of the article is probably one of the authors of the book. -- RHaworth 02:21, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

• Speedy delete. Chinese-flavored spam. Realkyhick
• Delete Not notable. Wikidudeman ^(talk) 03:34, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
• Speedy Delete A google search shows absolutely no hits for this article. It is thus impossible to verify the contents of this article. --Siva1979^{Talk to me} 04:27, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

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The result was delete. --Coredesat 03:38, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Disruptor (spam blocking Outlook plugin)

Disruptor (spam blocking Outlook plugin) (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) – (View AfD)

Contested speedy, then prod. The software described is not notable. The article does little or nothing to assert its notability, and the article is largely written like an advertisement. Few relevant Google hits that aren't ads or Wikipedia/reflectors. Realkyhick 02:20, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

• Delete Plenty of ghits for downloads, but this does't make it notable. It doesn't do anything different or new to deserve an article. Nicko (Talk•Contribs)Review my progress! 02:27, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
• Don't Delete Those which follow historically don't do anything different. This was the first to do it so it needs its own article. Parlanced 02:43, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

==non-notability contested== fix header so it won't disrupt things Ten Pound Hammer • ^{(((Broken clamshells • Otter chirps)))} 02:45, 21 July 2007 (UTC) reference to: printed technology magazine

additionally it is a first-in-kind use of Microsoft's COM add-in technology.

Parlanced 02:41, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

• Comment: I'd fix the entry above if I could make heads or tails of it. Realkyhick 02:49, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

• being the first of a kind thing makes it deserving of an article doesn't it? apologies for the garish formatting. I wasn't trying to be an attention whore. I assumed that was the right style. Parlanced 03:03, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

• "First of its kind" is by no means a criteria for notability, particularly not the sole criteria. Realkyhick 13:33, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

• Delete is an advertisment. Oysterguitarist 03:40, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
• Delete per nom. Wikidudeman ^(talk) 06:17, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
• 'Delete reads like an advertisement and no "significant coverage" of this plugin Corpx 15:25, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

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The result was delete. --Coredesat 03:38, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Russel Timoshenko

Russel Timoshenko (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) – (View AfD)

Notability of the subject has not been established WWGB 02:01, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

• Delete. The article does not assert the notability of the officer, other than sadly being killed on duty. It reads more like a news item than an encyclopedic entry. WWGB 02:15, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
• Delete. It is sad, but there are unfortunately many line-of-duty deaths for police officers. This is not Wikinews. Realkyhick 02:23, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
• Delete Sad story, but violation of WP:NOT#NEWS - No historic notability for this Corpx 02:30, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
• Delete Not notable enough for it's own article. Agreed, sad story, however I don't believe it's anywhere near notable enough. Wikidudeman ^(talk) 03:36, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
• Delete - Not suffiently notable. Read a lot about the case, and there doesn't appear to be anything remarkable about the case. Just a dirtbag who gunned down a cop. Montco 03:54, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
• Weak keep Let's wait a bit longer and see where this anti-gun thing goes [26]. Not opposed to re-listing if it doesn't result in greater notability. Wl219 12:02, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
• Delete. There is no notability to the officer, other than sadly being killed in the line of duty. Unfortunately all too many officers are killed in the line of duty worldwide... but most, like Timoshenko, are not notable. I agree that the article reads more like a news item than an encyclopedic entry. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a newspaper. Perhaps this belongs in WikiNews. Tom M. 22:13, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

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The result was delete. —Kurykh 04:14, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The latin phonetic method of Shanghainese

The latin phonetic method of Shanghainese (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) – (View AfD)

DeleteThis page looks quite like a rehash in expanded form of the deleted Lumazi - a project to develop a Romanisation scheme for Shanghainese. The content was originally inserted into, then deleted from, Shanghainese ([27] [28] and [29] on the grounds of "self promotion"). Several grounds for deletion:

1. no assertion of notability;
2. external links reveal only a limited online presence: one project website, and one example of implementation; other links are to web forum posts;
3. The article links to Chinese and French wikipedia articles, but those were created by the same user over a 3 week period - which seems to give the subject matter a hint of notability that it does not in fact possess. PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 01:42, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

On further reading of the Chinese Wikipedia page (zh:吳語拉丁式注音法), that article gives the following details about the project: it was created in 2001 by a person identified through his/her web alias as "上海闲話abc", and developed with two other persons identified via web aliases as "Hisahara" and "Key". Nothing is stated about the extent of its usage on that page. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 01:49, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

• Comment I'm really not sure about this. Could this fit under WP:NOT#HOWTO in that wikipedia is not a pronunciation guide? Corpx 02:32, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
  • Yeah, there's that aspect too. And it's a pronunciation guide of a non-notable scheme for transliterating Chinese, not the language itself. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 03:38, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
• Comment Well, I've read the article, and I still can't quite figure out what it is. Is it some kind system for romanizing Chinese characters, or what? I'm kind of inclined to support deletion as it seems to be altogether non-notable, as well as a sort of manual (not to mention incredibly confusing), but I wouldn't want to do that if I'm not sure exactly what I'm discussing the deletion of. Calgary 05:43, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
  • It seems to be a system for romanizing Chinese characters according to their Shanghai dialect pronunciation (as opposed to the more standard Mandarin pronunciation). Comparable (but more notable and less confusingly written) systems would be, e.g., Pinyin or Standard Cantonese Pinyin. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 06:03, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
• Delete. Very interesting for a linguist, but misses notability criteria by a large margin. This is a very recent proposal, it has had no official recognition, and its author is not notable. This system might catch on in the future (although I doubt it), but it's certainly not notable enough right now. --Targeman 14:12, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
• Keep - sourced and I see no reason why an editor might want to hide an article about this romanization system from other WP users. Badagnani 18:42, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

There are no external sources. And what do you think about the notability criterion though? --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 00:49, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

• Comment - There are external sources. It's also real bad that the original author of the article was not alerted of this AFD nor was any discussion posted to his/her discussion page. That really isn't right! Badagnani 01:44, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

The external links consist of the project's own website, one example of implementation on a website, and web forum posts. There are no external, third-party sources for the article. Most problematically, no claim to notability is made out.

This AfD was notified on Wikiproject:China, and of course it is prominently displayed on the article itself. There is no requirement to notify the creator (who, btw, has not edited since June 5, when this article was created). If you think notification is necessary, I will do so now. But please give us your thoughts on notability.--PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 01:50, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

• Keep as per Badaboom Mandsford 01:14, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

Wikipedia is not an indiscriminant collection of information. Notability needs to be satisfied. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 03:33, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

• Delete. Much of the article's content is already covered in a better-written and referenced article at Shanghainese. However, I would encourage editors who are more familiar with the subject have a look and see if there's anything that can be salvaged from this article and put into Shanghainese. enochlau (talk) 09:18, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
• Delete - The system has to actually catch on and be used by a significant number of people for it to be notable. Otherwise, we leave ourselves open to making an article for every romanization system that anyone dreams up.--Danaman5 21:07, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
• Delete - The article is primarily a How-To violating WP:NOT. The article has no reliable sources, and fails notability. -- Whpq 14:48, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

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The result was keep Non admin close. ~ Wikihermit 00:59, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Julia Clancey

Julia Clancey (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) – (View AfD)

Non-notable designer. Coverage is trivial, price in article smells like promotion. No claim to sufficient notability to pass WP:BIO for creative professionals. — Coren ^(talk) 01:42, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

• Delete: She's apparently up-and-coming, but non-notable at the moment. Not only are there prices included, but some parts of the article are word for word copies from the Julia Clancey website [30]. - Kneel17 01:57, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
• Weak Delete: The subject's products appeared in fashion magazines. However, I don't see any of them on the website. I do agree, she's non-notable at the moment. And, the article has bit-by-bit pieces of plagiarism from the official website. Miranda 02:04, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
• Delete. I know a news release when I see one. Realkyhick 02:25, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
• Delete per nom. Wikidudeman ^(talk) 03:36, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
• Delete After she becomes more notable the article can be brought back to life. Montco 04:09, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
• Keep sorry guys, I'm going to go the other way. Article is just not well written, thats all. I know of this designer and putting out a successful fashion range is notable enough, sure she didnt re-invent the belt but Gucci, Prada, and D&G didn't either. cheers Anthony Chidiac --Achidiac 11:35, 21 July 2007 (UTC) Achidiac (talk · contribs), Rdpaperclip (talk · contribs), T3Smile (talk · contribs), and 60.241.91.14 (talk · contribs) have been blocked as sock puppets. See Wikipedia:Suspected sock puppets/Achidiac. -- Jreferee t/c 17:05, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
• Neutral Notability is just above borderline IMHO. If the article can be cleaned up and properly sourced before the close of AfD, I'll happily add a keep vote. As-is, it's overly advert-like in tone and relies too much on her own website for sourcing, and losing the article wouldn't be any great loss. Andrew Lenahan - Starblind 14:52, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
• Weak keep per Achidiac and Andrew Lenahan. She appears notable, but what a mess of an article! Autohagiography at its worst. Bearian 16:38, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
• Strong keep. Obviously this needs to be more or less scrapped in its current form and rewritten, but I think the designer is definitely notable. (BTW I started Wikipedia:WikiProject Fashion.) I don't think the other voters looked through the sources for the article--one of them is vogue.co.uk, which has a full slideshow of her latest collection at London Fashion Week. Her show was an off-schedule one, but London Fashion Week is one of the four major fashion weeks in the world, and if Vogue magazine attends your show and posts pictures of your collection its website, you're pretty big news. Obviously she's a new designer (this is her first collection that Vogue posted a slideshow for online), but I think the other sources referenced (including [31] and [32] are at least enough for a short article. See also her website where she lists all the fashion magazines her designs have been used in--not necessarily articles, but if your clothes are in fashion spreads in Elle, I.D., Vogue, Vogue Italia, Vogue Russia, Glamour, InStyle, GQ, FHM, etc etc, you definitely should be covered here. Calliopejen1 10:06, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

• I just cleaned it up so it's not an ad anymore. Calliopejen1 11:04, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

• Weak Delete. Seems to me like a standard business professional in a glamorous industry. Not notable enough yet, but she could easily get there soon. Uranometria 21:35, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

• Comment. If you are on Vogue's website, you are not a standard business professional. If you look in the drop-down box, you'll see they went to about 250 shows this season and took photos. This means that Vogue UK (one of the most important fashion magazines) thinks this woman is one of the 250 most important fashion designers in the world right now, which I think is decently notable in such a huge industry. If you were one of the top 250 actors in the world, to compare this to another profession, would certainly have a wikipedia page. I'm adding new references to a The Independent piece on her. There are certainly enough reliable sources to be had here... Calliopejen1 13:09, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

• Delete reads more like news or an advert. If you have to explain the notability in full detail to someone, then maybe they aren't that notable to begin with. Pharmboy 15:35, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
• Keep are you fucking serious? Her designs have been featured in Vogue, Glamour, InStyle, Elle, GQ, and FHM... if thats not a notable designer... then we might as well delete them all.  ALKIVAR™ ☢ 18:06, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

Comment: Lets please keep this civil. We can disagree without being disagreable. Pharmboy 18:09, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

• Keep. The article has changed in major ways since its nomination. The subject meets WP:BIO by a) being the subject (or being the creator of the subject) of multiple reliable secondary sources and b)by being known for originating a significant new concept in that her fashion concepts have been recognized by the Centre for Fashion Enterprise (an internationally recognized institution) as being worth nurturing and retaining in London. User:Ceyockey (talk to me) 00:20, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

COMMENT Like many articles, they seem to magically improve when nominated. It is better now. Pharmboy 00:31, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

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The result was delete. Sr13 01:31, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Jezebel swain

Jezebel swain (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) – (View AfD)

non-notable, suspect hoax; prodded it, IP address user modified with a link to a livejournal page as a source NeilN 01:42, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

• Speedy Delete: Even on the livejournal link, it says that her music is "hard to find"... doesn't pass WP:BIO and has no credible sources. - Kneel17 01:49, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
• Delete. Zero hits on Google and Google Books. If she were really "an overnight sensation in the singing world" during the 1920s, someone would have written something about her. Smells like a hoax to me. Deor 02:00, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
• Delete Per above. Wikidudeman ^(talk) 03:37, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
• Delete, probably a hoax. For starters, "Jadwiga Tchalov" is not a Czech name. Even the author says she was an "obscure artist". No wonder there are no sources. --Targeman 14:23, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
• Speedy delete as a hoax. Did you follow the link? Bearian 16:41, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

• It won't load on my PC. What is it? --Targeman 16:43, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

• Delete The Live Journal entry uses Wikipedia article as a source; Wikipedia article uses the Live Journal entry as a source. A hoax. --Malcolmxl5 21:06, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
• Delete; unverified and non-notable. --Russ (talk) 18:23, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

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The result was No consensus. Until(1 == 2) 05:01, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] David L. Leamon

David L. Leamon (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) – (View AfD)

I'm sure a claim to having had the lobby of a local public library named after oneself is not enough to pass notability criteria, but I suppose it's enough to not be speedily deleted. Non-notable librarian, with no sources. — Coren ^(talk) 01:25, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

• Delete: Although I'm sure he's greatly contributed to a local community, I see no way how this fulfills WP:BIO. - Kneel17 01:40, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
• Keep: His contributions to the Library community across the country as well as to communities in Michigan, Texas and Kansas does qualify him for inclusion. If this does not qualify him for inclusion then I would say that the many articles about mayors of Topeka would also need to be deleted as they have had virtually no impact outside the Topeka area where David Leamon has. Jopgaard 01:50, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment - WP:OTHERCRAPEXISTS is not a valid argument for deletion. --Ybbor^Talk 02:21, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
• Delete. Ooooh! He has a circulation lobby named after him.... uh, what the heck is a circulation lobby, anyway? Not notable, folks. Realkyhick 02:26, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
• Delete This guy's just an average librarian - no notability established Corpx 02:29, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
• Delete fails WP:BIO, not notable person. Oysterguitarist 03:31, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
• Delete Does indeed fail the criteria for notability. Not notable enough for own article. Wikidudeman ^(talk) 03:38, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
• Weak Delete The most notable thing I could find about this guy was that the Topeka library got sued when he was director after a staffer was fired for discussing gay rights issues. Unfortunately, Mr. Leamon was on vacation at the time the firing occurred and had no direct involvement in the incident. Montco 04:08, 21 July 2007 (UTC)[33]
• Weak keep as notability is asserted and cites can be verified. Bearian 16:43, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
• Keep. Being head of major library systems in multiple states (Kansas, Michigan, Texas, and in top management in Washington) seems to put him near the top of his field, not average. Sohelpme 19:24, 21 July 2007 (UTC)