Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Log/2007 August 29

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete as original research. KrakatoaKatie 12:52, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Destruction of Idol Temples

Destruction of Idol Temples (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) – (View AfD)

Contested prod. Not sure what this article intends to achieve. Is it a list? Is it an article? Possibly POV-fork of Idolatry. In any case, there may be an article to write on the ritual despoiling of places of worship as a form of conquest, but this isn't it. What we have here is OR through synthesis, a list of temples, a bunch of humungous quotes from primary sources, and lots of external links to spammy/partisan/non-notable/extremist websites. Of course, someone'sgone to the trouble of running a google scholar search on "temple destruction" and put in the first five results as 'references', but there's no link between that list and the article, or indeed the title. I would suggest deleting from scratch and, in due course, the subject will be covered in an article with a more comprehensible (ie not made-up) name and non-OR contents. Hornplease 23:56, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

  • Delete as per nom. That has to be one of the most.. interesting displays of OR I've seen in a bit. Throwing a list together and some primary source quotes doesn't make an article on Wikipedia. Ealdgyth | Talk 03:44, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep and rename to List of destroyed temples or something. The subject might be worth covering, but not as it is now. There's no context, just some copied text. Crazysuit 05:00, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete - This doesn't qualify as an article or a legitimate topic. With all of these OR issues, I can't even figure out what they were trying to push with this one. Are these put together as if they are part of some general phenomenon? Are we supposed to sympathize with the poor idols? I'm not sure, but regardless of the purpose this thing is not fit for Wikipedia at all. The Behnam 05:06, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
I think the purpose is to propagate, or popularize, the narrative that monotheistic religions have established and demonstrated power by defacing "pagan" images. (Which, of course, this article doesn't do.) I'm surprised they didnt dump in Golden calf: Exodus 32:19 while they were at it. It is impeccably sourced. Hornplease 05:22, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
Its all the massive quotes at the end and the claim of synthesis in the introductory paragraph. Hornplease 06:43, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete It's POV, OR and it's a lousy article with no discernible purpose. Destroy. --Folantin 07:28, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep This is a legitimate topic for an encyclopedia article and may be developed further .Intothefire 09:45, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete. Wikipedia is not a collection of quotes. Minus the quotes, the article is just a list of temples/idols that were destroyed. This can easily be achieved with a category (a subcategory of Category:Destruction). The topic is not unencyclopedic, but in its current form, the article is worthy of deletion. utcursch | talk 09:54, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep and rename Teardrop onthefire 15:03, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete article serves no purpose other than being an biased list, and a series of quotes. This article violates WP:NPOV, and WP:NOT#INFO. IP198 17:31, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete Potentially a notable topic, but a list of links to a few examples, and a selection of long quotes from well-known sources does not make an article. The Gibbon is a famous passage, but it is undoubtedly where it belongs, in full, in Wikisource. DGG (talk) 07:56, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete this. Perhaps I wouldn't object to a list, but this awful article has to go. Moreschi Talk 20:28, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep and rename - the narrative is useful, the list is not. Get rid of the list, or at least turn it in to some kind of narrative. -- Roleplayer 23:53, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
    What narrative? The only text is quotes from primary sources, except for a couple of OR-y lines at the beginning... Hornplease 00:19, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
    I meant the quotes. They can be expanded into narrative fairly easily. -- Roleplayer 00:53, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete Large potential for polemical content (see current version), low potential for useful, encyclopedic content.--Kitrus 08:03, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
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The result was delete. Majorly (talk) 23:10, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] 2005 Louisville vs. West Virginia football game

2005 Louisville vs. West Virginia football game (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) – (View AfD)

nn college football game, nothing special of this game compared to thousands, wikipedia isn't a sports game guide Delete Jaranda wat's sup 23:51, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

  • Delete per WP:N and the fact that Wikipedia is not a collection of news or statistics. --Bfigura (talk) 00:11, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete per Bfigura. - Nascentatheist 02:14, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep its a good article--Zingostar 18:45, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Good article isn't a valid reason for keeping Jaranda wat's sup 22:22, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
      • You've given no valid reason for deletion. This article violates no Wikipedia policies. The burden is on you to prove it must be deleted according to policy. Johntex\talk 00:23, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
        • You mean other than that whole thing about not being a news site or indiscriminate collection of info? I remember this season - this was a good game; I listened to it on the radio. But it was no more notable than probably 50 other games this season. The Evil Spartan 19:18, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
          • There is nothing indiscriminate about this article. It provides plenty of information to show why the game was important to the teams, what records were set, etc. Please look more closely and don't expect every article on Wikipedia to be about the single most important thing in the world. Viscount Hawarden is a very minor peerage in the UK, yet a good article on it is perfectly justifiable here since we have plenty of paper. Same with a well-written article about this game. Johntex\talk 16:27, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete per nom, I fail to see much historic notability in this game and I really feel like most of these game recaps are more appropriate for WikiNews Corpx 00:05, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete Wikipedia is not a news site. The Evil Spartan 05:02, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete I've got to say delete here at least for now. It in no way establishes notability with a reliable source (it even sources a wikipedia page which is a big no-no). I don't think automatically that a game is not-notable, but this one gives no reason for its notability. Phydend 05:38, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete - not notable enough -- Roleplayer 23:54, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Strong keep - Individual college football games meet the notability requirements and should be kept if they are well-written. Please see 2005 Texas vs. Ohio State football game and 2005 Oklahoma vs. Texas football game for two similar articles that have reached Good Article status.
There is no reason under policy to justify deleting this article. And there are many reasons to keep it; these include:
  1. These article do NOT simply duplicate what is available elsewhere. We can bring together facts from multiple sources. For instance, the hometown newspapers for both teams as well as the national press.
  2. We can provide more historical context than most news reports will bother with.
  3. We can aid the reader with informative links to related topics, such as terms used in college football. No news source does that, not even online news sources.
  4. Unlike some on-line newspapers, access to our stories will always be free of charge, so long as we don't delete them.
  5. Many of our articles also come with photos that can be reused under GFDL or CC license.
Thank you, Johntex\talk 00:17, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
Explain where individual football games meet the notabilty requirements, also you are giving reasons for supporting the article to go to wikinews not here. Jaranda wat's sup 00:23, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
From WP:N - "This page in a nutshell: A topic is presumed to be notable if it has received significant coverage in reliable secondary sources that are independent of the subject." - This article passes that test and should be kept. Johntex\talk 21:50, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
Every D1 football game passes the bar for notability, but it is the WP:NOT#NEWS that is the issue. The reasons you provided tells me that this is appropriate for WikiNews. Corpx 03:52, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
Are you saying we should have an article on every division 1 game out there? Like that Northwestern-Northeaster blowout last week? We need to create a guideline for this as the Wikiproject. The Evil Spartan 19:18, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
Every D1 football game complies with policy to be kept here. There is no reason to consider moving it to wikinews because they do not violate policy here. Talking about moving them to wikinews is wasting time trying to solve a problem that does not exist. These are encyclopedia articles, not news stories. They sometimes take weeks or longer to fully create. They have not news announcements in any fashion. Johntex\talk 21:47, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
You are misreading WP:N. Just because it has sources doesn't indicate instant notabilty. A car accident that killed an average person has sources, that doesn't indicate it's notable, same with games. It needs to have sources indicating the notabilty of the game or the event, which this hasn't. Jaranda wat's sup Sports! 23:36, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
The references in the article provide plenty of notability for the article. It was the biggest comeback for the Mountaineers in more than a decade. It was also the second most points the team had ever scored. It was an instrumental win for them in terms of winning the conference. Steve Slaton set a school record for touchdown passes, etc.
There is no valid comparison between this and something like a car wreck, which is forgotten almost immediately by all but the families involved.
You are also mistaken about the need for an article to loudly proclaim some special event in order to be included on Wikipedia. Go look at almost any article on a secondary school or primary school on Wikipedia. There is nothing in most of those articles to claim the school has set any record, or been at the top of any list. The same is true of most articles on small towns like Coleman, Texas or Capel St. Mary in the UK. The Beas River sets no worldwide records. It is not even one of the biggest rivers in India, yet we have an article on it. Wikipedia strives for completeness. In order to give a balanced view of the world, we have to include things that are not the biggest and best or most widely known of their category. Johntex\talk 16:27, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
"biggest comeback for the Mountaineers in more than a decade". If you nitpick enough in any football game, you'll find some sort of minute record being set/broken, but that's not historic notability. Also see WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS Corpx 18:49, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS provides no reason for deleting anything. It is a straw man argument. WP:N is what matters. It says, "This page in a nutshell: A topic is presumed to be notable if it has received significant coverage in reliable secondary sources that are independent of the subject." This topic has multiple independent sources and it is presumed to be notable. Johntex\talk 18:55, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete per nom. Simply not notable enough. Stevie is the man! Talk • Work 17:41, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep. Important game in the history of the Big East, which was still recovering for the ACC exodus. --Bobak 18:42, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete. Oh good God. Fails notability. I think logic analogous to WP:BLP1E should apply to sports games. An article about a whole rivalry (with reliable sources) might be appropriate, and would support a merge into such an article if one wants to create it. I therefore would support a future undelete for any enterprising editor who wants to document this apparent Louisville v. West Virginia legacy. Cool Hand Luke 03:22, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete. This article doesn't even do a good job of covering the game. It makes no mention of how controversial the onside kick call was, or that Big East officials issued a retraction saying how badly they screwed it up. But NPOV issues aside, we don't need 60 new articles a week during the D-1 NCAA football season which summarize ESPN.com. shoy 19:00, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
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The result was redirect to Pets Evacuation and Transportation Standards Act. Mackensen (talk) 18:18, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Snowball (Hurricane Katrina dog)

AfDs for this article:
Articles for deletion/Snowball (Hurricane Katrina dog) Articles for deletion/Snowball (Hurricane Katrina dog) (2nd nomination) Articles for deletion/Snowball (Hurricane Katrina dog) (3rd nomination)
Snowball (Hurricane Katrina dog) (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) – (View AfD)

The article fails the notability criteria. It is not a soapbox, and it is not Wikinews Hurricanehink (talk) 21:43, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

  • Delete per WP:NOT#NEWS even though I like the story. Ten Pound Hammer • (Broken clamshells•Otter chirps•Review?) 23:52, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Merge to the Hurricane article as per many suggested in the previous afd.--JForget 00:24, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep. It seems to me that notability is best determined by significant coverage in reliable sources independent of the subject, rather than the opinion of Wikipedia editors. The article could be improved by editing, and the use of inline citations, but the subject and its surrounding discussion is certainly important, notable, and verifiable. It also exhibits historical significance as background to the Pet Evacuation and Transportation Standards Act, and is discussed in this context by notable and reliable sources. It therefore warrants a separate article, and should not be merged. I would like to know how the article fails WP:N and WP:SOAP. --TreeKittens 00:30, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
Comment One problem is that many of the sources in this article are no longer accessible. I've been examining them closely as I have edited the information down (to the provable and necessary) into a separate article on Pets Evacuation and Transportation Standards Act. While the background section in the new article could use expansion--particularly on whether or not Snowball really was found (alas, no sources!) I believe that this article should be redirected accordingly. :) --Moonriddengirl 14:38, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep per TreeKittens. The article's subject was apparently heavily covered by national news. Now, I know Wikipedia is not Wikinews, but given that the dog and the resulting news coverage may have inspired legislation (which needs more sourcing in the article), I think it's a keep. --Bfigura (talk) 00:53, 30 August 2007 (UTC) (see below) Bfigura (talk) 17:28, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Merge per Moonriddengirl. --Bfigura (talk) 17:28, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Merge to the Hurricane article. Actually, I think the article should be substantially pruned and included as a "background" section in a new article on the currently non-existent Pets Evacuation and Transportation Standards Act. I'm tempted to write the article myself, but it's much too late where I am. Maybe somebody in a different time zone will take the initiative. :) (see below)--Moonriddengirl 01:24, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
Comment I have created the PETS article (well, am categorizing, so I suppose technically "am creating") in case it seems like an appropriate merge point for this article. I could not include any references to the dispute of Snowball's location, because I could not find any references. --Moonriddengirl 14:34, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Edit down and merge with Hurricane Katrina. - Nascentatheist 02:16, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Redirect to Pets Evacuation and Transportation Standards Act. (My response has changed significantly enough to warrant a new line, I think.) Not all of the information is included in that new article, but what isn't included is largely not there because it is not Wikipedia:Verifiable. Those searching for Snowball would still be able to read verifiable information about him or her, and the legislation seems far more valuable as an article. If other users don't agree with that, I would propose a merger with Social effects of Hurricane Katrina rather than the primary Hurricane Katrina article. There is already a section on animals within that specific document. --Moonriddengirl 15:54, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete per WP:NOT#NEWS. Mention can be made (per above) at the PETS act page. Eusebeus 18:12, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Oh good grief. Strong delete, we're not Wikinews. Without sources indicating that the dog did in fact inspire anything, there's nothing for notability here, either. Also, the quotes are copyvios as they aren't referenced and certainly aren't fair use. --Coredesat 21:09, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete also per WP:NOT#NEWS. Current event without much historical notability. If the bill actually passes, include a small mention about this dog in there Corpx 00:04, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
Comment The bill did actually pass. With an overwhelming majority. In May of 2006. :) Pets Evacuation and Transportation Standards Act. --Moonriddengirl 00:14, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
Yea, that's sufficient coverage for this dog. Delete & Redirect there Corpx 00:42, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete per WP:NOT#NEWS, but don't bother with a redirect. Article has only one incoming link (from Social effects of Hurricane Katrina that can and should be retargeted; and "Snowball (Hurricane Katrina dog)" is hardly a plausible search term.--Nilfanion (talk) 01:11, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment This House of Representatives transcript specifically links Snowball to the PETS act [1] . Also this article by Prof. Leslie Irvine of the University of Colorado [2], published in Animal Liberation Philosophy and Policy Journal in 2006 shows that the dog is still discussed by reliable sources HTML version. These suggest lasting independent notability to me. Thanks a lot to Moonriddengirl for creating that great article though! --TreeKittens 05:57, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
  • comment Good sleuthing! I've incorporated the transcript into the PETS article. :D --Moonriddengirl 12:39, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Weak keep People, pets, and events can be extremely newsworthy without having the long-term importance appropriate for an encyclopedia, as stated by policy WP:NOT#NEWS and essay WP:NOTNEWS. But in this case, in addition to the news stories about the added trauma of Katrina evacuees additionally having to abandon their companion animals like Snowball to some unknown hell, the article seems to state that this particular tearful parting was a factor in consideration of national legislation requiring the U.S. emergency preparedness organization to plan for evacuating pets as well as people. The weakness of the "keep" is because it is not specifically a "Snowball law" like other tragedies led to "Amber laws" and the like. Edison 06:38, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
  • If the link to legislative change can be proven using verifiable references, it's a definite keep. If it can't it's a merge with Hurricane Katrina. Either way I am against deletion. -- Roleplayer 23:57, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Merging to Hurricane Katrina is inappropriate, as there is nothing here that deserves inclusion on that page. That's especially true if we can't verify the bit that matters... Without the legislation, Snowball is nothing more than a random human interest story. If the link to legislation is established it deserves mentioning in the background to PETS, not an article in its own right.--Nilfanion (talk) 10:35, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment Ok, so it seems some agree that the information is verifiable and worthy of inclusion - it is just a matter of where it should be placed. I am sympathetic to your point of view, but I would suggest the the dog deserves only a passing reference in PETS and Hurricane Katrina. The best way of doing this, in my opinion, is to have a small article on the dog, and link to it in the main text of the relevant section of those articles. I don't think the whole background of the dog is relevant to them, but the references (particularly those in the new PETS article) establish notability. Unfortunately, I have not had time to edit the Snowball article to attribute the quotes and improve it, but I think a separate article with proper linking is the most elegant way of presenting the information, rather than spreading it over two or more articles. I agree it is an implausible search term. Thanks, TreeKittens 23:45, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
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The result was delete per WP:ORG. KrakatoaKatie 13:02, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Delta Upsilon (Lambda Iota Chapter)

Delta Upsilon (Lambda Iota Chapter) (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) – (View AfD)

Non-notable chapter of a notable national organization. All the claims of notability relate to the house and not the chapter. Even those claims are weak; is the house really notable because it's on the street that inspired Nightmare on Elm Street? Still, that doesn't demonstrate any notability for the chapter. —C.Fred (talk) 23:20, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

  • Delete per WP:ORG. Since the article pertains to the organization, I don't think the unsubstantiated claims of their house inspiring Nightmare on Elm Street really help prove notability of the fraternity. (ie, I don't think the fraternity would inherit notability from the movie by virtue of their house, even if the link was documented by a WP:RS.) --Bfigura (talk) 23:41, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep The notablitly claim that was deemed unsubstantiated is referenced at http://www.potsdam.ny.us/history.html, and is otherwise in a trivia section, not the main body of the article. The longevity and size of the organization are notable, per WP:ORG. That it was a long-lived independent organization before being a chapter of Delta Upsilon also makes it notable for inclusion. 128.153.221.46 19:40, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment As now reflected on the article page, the source listed only claims that the Movie found inspiration from a student film, not that the student film featured the house in question. Also, please note that in order to pass WP:ORG, the organization needs to be documented (ie, the subject of, not mentioned in passing) by reliable secondary sources. This isn't done in the article. --Bfigura (talk) 19:44, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete every frat/sorority will have some kind of interesting story, but I do not think we should be having articles for each campus chapter Corpx 00:03, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete - no real claim of notability. -- Roleplayer 23:58, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
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The result was Keep --Haemo 20:38, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] GURPS Runal

AfDs for this article:
Articles for deletion/GURPS Runal (2nd nomination)
Articles for deletion/GURPS 4e Basic Set Articles for deletion/GURPS 4e Basic Set (2nd nomination)
GURPS Runal (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) – (View AfD)

Book of gaming instructions (written in Japanese) that fails notability guidlines WP:BK as article details game elements, provides no context, and links to publisher and other books do not demonstrate notability for this entry from an independent viewpoint. Enthusiasts will say it is part of a notable series GURPS, but lack of article content suggests that this article does not contribute to this assertion. --Gavin Collins 22:29, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

  • Neutral I quite agree on the non-notability of this item. But: Modifying my opinion to keep, in view of the later reference to the Runal novels. Moreover: (this editing: Goochelaar 13:06, 1 September 2007 (UTC))
    • notability guidelines WP:BK are not relevant here, because the subject is a book of "gaming instructions", while those guidelines explicitely exclude reference works and instruction manuals;
    • Gavin, please let the "enthusiasts", if and when they appear, have their say without you trying to anticipate their arguments. Thanks, Goochelaar 22:55, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment Hmm, this is a Japanese book that is apparently the setting of over 20 novels? I'm going to go out on a limb and say that this may be notable, but that sources in English may be thin on the ground. I suggest somebody check the Japanese Wikipedia for information. Or at least, that somebody who knows Japanese check the publisher's website: [3] isn't going to help me, even if I installed the right character set, it wouldn't tell me if the Emperor of Japan had declared it as a Holy Book. I suggest at the least, consultation with bi-lingual Wikipedians. The same applies to any action on Group SNE. FrozenPurpleCube 23:00, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
Also, I've looked, and I can't see any game elements on the page. I don't think there's anything even remotely related to the GURPS system at all on the page. Disadvantages? Advantages? Templates? Lenses? Skills? Nope, none of that. FrozenPurpleCube 23:12, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Note: This debate has been included in the list of Japan-related deletions. -- FrozenPurpleCube 23:03, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep if the 20+ novels claim can be verified, otherwise Redirect to List of GURPS books Percy Snoodle 12:03, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment For those interested, I've set up a discussion on Talk:List of GURPS books where we can hopefully handle this subject directly without further AFD's. FrozenPurpleCube 15:18, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete yet another GURPS book with no coverage from independent reliable sources Corpx 00:01, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
Did you look for Japanese sources? FrozenPurpleCube 01:05, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
Burden of proof to find the said sources lie does not lie on me. I looked within my available means. Corpx 01:55, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
And? You didn't say you had looked for them, so how am I to know? And in this case, the foreign language sources are likely to be the important ones. So I asked. And I repeat the question, did you look for Japanese sources? If you have, then that'd mean something. If you haven't, then we're still waiting to hear from somebody familiar enough with the language. FrozenPurpleCube 04:14, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
No, I did not look for Japanese sources. Corpx 09:12, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment A link has been added in the article to the Amazon page with the novels related to this setting. So they should at least exist. --Goochelaar 09:01, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep since connection to 20+ books series seems to have been confirmed. Article does clearly need work, though. Edward321 02:53, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep per recently-added reference for notability. -- JHunterJ 12:25, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep Notable enough that a unique GURPS game setting be created in another language, I don't know of hand if even AD&D hass been released in Japanese, and to be the basis of 20+ novels makes it doubly notable.KTo288 02:43, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep as the game has spawned over 20 novels, which makes it definitely notable. And yes, D&D/AD&D has been released in Japan. ···日本穣? · Talk to Nihonjoe 05:45, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
    • Comment thanks Nihonjoe for satisfying my curiousity.KTo288 17:42, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
      • No problem. I should note that I own a GURPS set in Japanese, as well as two of the Runal novels. ···日本穣? · Talk to Nihonjoe 05:27, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Note: This debate has been included in the list of Game-related-related deletions. --Gavin Collins 16:26, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
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The result was Delete per violation of WP:NOT#HOWTO. Non-admin closureJForget 22:43, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Rubik's Cube for Dummies:Solve the Rubik's Cube using simple English words

AfDs for this article:
Articles for deletion/Rubik's Cube for Dummies:Solve the Rubik's Cube using simple English words
Rubik's Cube for Dummies:Solve the Rubik's Cube using simple English words (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) – (View AfD)

Blatant infringement of WP:NOT#HOWTO. Original author removed prod. Oli Filth 22:26, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

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The result was speedy delete under WP:CSD#A7. KrakatoaKatie 01:02, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Merced skimmers

Merced skimmers (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) – (View AfD)

non-notable — Jonathan Kovaciny (talk|contribs) 22:16, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

  • Speedy Delete non-notable swimming group with no assertion of notability. Candidate for deletion under WP:A7. I'll be tagging as such. --Bfigura (talk) 22:25, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
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The result was delete, fails WP:NEO. KrakatoaKatie 13:04, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Modern Gallae

Modern Gallae (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) – (View AfD)

Appears to lack any cites to independent reliable sources required by the attribution policy. Google hits seem to be mostly from Wikipedia mirrors. Karada 22:07, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

  • comment - seems to be almost a neologism. With additional ref's could be fine (if odd subject). Ghits is a poor indicator of notability (under my real name I show up with lots of hits and I am totally un-notable). --Rocksanddirt 22:16, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete, fails WP:N and WP:NEO. Nothing in Google News Archive, one result in Google Books, a very limited mention.[4] --Dhartung | Talk 22:43, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete also per WP:NEO, unless sources are found to prove otherwise Corpx 00:00, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete neologism -- Roleplayer 00:00, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
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The result was merge and redirect to Mark Rogowski. KrakatoaKatie 13:10, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Jessica Bergsten

Jessica Bergsten (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) – (View AfD)

This biographical piece is completely unreferenced, and has been tagged as unreferenced for nearly a year with no improvement. Since nobody is improving the article, I think it's prudent to remove the possibly inaccurate content from Wikipedia. There's also some POV problems (for example, "beautiful"). Mikeblas 15:38, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

  • Redirect to Mark Rogowski, since she's only notable for being the person he murdered. I'd suggest merging of any sourced information from the Bergsten article, but as the nom says, there are no sources for any of it.Propaniac 15:52, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
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Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, TerriersFan 21:51, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Merge and redirect to Mark Rogowski. Murder victims are not inherently notable. It's unfair that e.g. missing persons or unsolved cases mean the victim gets an article and not the culprit, while in cases where there is a conviction it's often the other way around. (We really need to enshrine this in WP:BIO or some subguideline. It's basically WP:BLP1E for the deceased.) --Dhartung | Talk 22:46, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Merge as per above as the person is only notable for the murder and would be more suited for the killer's article.--JForget 00:26, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
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The result was no consensus. KrakatoaKatie 17:57, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] GPnotebook

GPnotebook (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) – (View AfD)

Prod contested with no reference to original concern. Subject is an online medical reference resource, article shows no sign of compliance with WP:WEB. There is an IMDb style "Foo on GPNotebook" template and google has plenty hits, but... sources? Deiz talk 14:42, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

  • Keep this article is not beyond saving, doing a Google search of GPnotebook with the additional fields in turn of "The Lancet", "BMA" or "The Medical Times" has thrown up some possible sources, including a description of the site on the page of a British University with a School of Medicine. I'm sure that farther sifting of the Google results in this vein will give us all the sources we need.KTo288 23:05, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
Comment found an article from a reputable source (BMJ with history and details of the site.KTo288 21:05, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
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Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, TerriersFan 21:45, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Redirect as article fails notability criteria WP:ORG per Deiz, despite it being potentially a useful source of medical information. I have added the link to the links section in the article Diagnosis. --Gavin Collins 21:16, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
    • Comment WP:ORG states "A company, corporation, organization, team, religion, group, product, or service is notable if it has been the subject of coverage in secondary sources. Such sources must be reliable, and independent of the subject." the British Medical Journal is as reliable and as independent as they come and the [article] (page s77) I placed on the articles discussion page has a history and overiew of the site. However I'm rather new to wiki lawyering so I don't know what the per Deiz dictum is however I've been told that on AfD's there is no assumption of precedence but every article must be judged on its own merits. By my reading of the WP:ORG it is notable enough for inclusion, and the are enough available attributable sources to support the article as it stands. That it is a stub now is no reason to delete as it can be expanded, with enough sources at present to at least a section on its founders, history and use of technology KTo288 01:40, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep. Notable enough. [Although not necessarily as reliable as certain other medical internet sites.] :-) Axl 16:49, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
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The result was delete. PeaceNT 12:26, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Laws in the Harry Potter world

Laws in the Harry Potter world (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) – (View AfD)

As far as I can tell the article is 100% original research (see WP:OR) - there are no secondary sources quoted and though much has been written about Harry Potter I do not think much ghas been written about the laws of the world WP:NOTINHERITED. Since no sources are given it seems likely that the article does not meet the primary notablility criteria - WP:NN and there is no real world content so it does not meet the specific requirements set out in WP:FICT. As it stands the article (in my opinion is pure) fancruft. Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of information.

Subjectively I also think the title sounds pretty terrible but that's besides the point. Guest9999 21:32, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

Delete per nomination. --Gerry Ashton 21:42, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

Feh - I like this sort of crap. Though it does need some sort of refernces, even to either Ms. Rowlings comments or third party summaries/reviews of the issues. --Rocksanddirt 22:00, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

  • Delete Ultimate fancruft. Dannycali 22:06, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Weak Delete Unlike some recent AfD's that have centered on the HP universe, I think this one has a valid target. If we took out the WP:OR, we wouldn't have a real article left. And I don't think the laws (unlike, spells, for example) play a strong enough role to justify WP:N. But, if someone produces a 3rd party book with substantial information to back this article up, I'll change my mind. --Bfigura (talk) 22:42, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Weak Delete along the same lines as above. There's just enough information in the books to give some basic information about this, and the article is very well written, but it really does need something separate from the books to help back things up. There's also a fair bit of extrapolation that can only be attributed to OR. I suppose delete it, but definitely no prejudice on re-creation, as this could be a useful article to have for background on the series. Hersfold (t/a/c) 23:28, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Weak delete; I imagine these 'laws', particularly the first two, which are pretty central, are covered elsewhere on WP. Hornplease 01:12, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete. OR and fancruft. Thin Arthur 05:55, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete as Fancruft. Eusebeus 18:15, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete per all of the aboveJForget 22:41, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete per WP:FICT - All in universe information, and lacking any real world notability. Transwiki if found appropriate Corpx 23:59, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete, even me who is a huge Harry Potter fan and mostly votes to keep Potter atricles that come up to Afd. I have to say delete as well. I have said it before, the articles are branching out to much, SOME things in the HP universe deserve their own articles, but not this. **Ko2007** 20:44, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete per WP:FICT, but for the umpteenth time will you leave out the OR, Guest9999? I'm finding it really hard to assume that you're not just ignoring the editors who have argued this before. Happy-melon 16:28, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Reply I consider it to be original research on the basis that I think that essentially the reader of a book is like an eyewitness of an incident. That this incident is in print and so may be verifyable doesn't change that these types of articles are based on editors reporting on the fact rather than documenting an issue based on primary and secondary sources. [[Guest9999 17:08, 2 September 2007 (UTC)]]
  • Delete - it makes interesting reading, but it's basically fancruft. -- Roleplayer 00:01, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Transwiki to the Harry Potter wiki. It's cruft, but it does have its place on the internet- just not Wikipedia. -Phi*n!x 00:06, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Transwiki to the Harry Potter wikia. Raymond Giggs 08:24, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
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The result was move to Bathroom Singer and keep. KrakatoaKatie 13:16, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Bathroomsinger

Bathroomsinger (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) – (View AfD)

Unknown TV show, without many sources to be found. Perhaps a vanity or ad article. Jmlk17 21:30, 29 August 2007 (UTC) *Delete per WP:CRYSTAL, if it's in the audition phase as the article states. May eventually pass notability with reliable sources, but not right now. Eliz81(talk)(contribs)

  • Keep, after moving to Bathroom Singer. Have a look at this [5].Hornplease 01:32, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep it's amazing what adding a space can do! Eliz81(talk)(contribs) 02:00, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep Its a New reality show on Sahara Filmy Channel, just one week old as of today. I have provided the official site for the show in article. Zareef Ahmed 17:45, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
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The result was delete. Could have been deleted as CSD#A7. KrakatoaKatie 13:19, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Montreal VIP

Montreal VIP (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) – (View AfD)

No indication of notability with reliable sources. — Swpbtalk|edits 15:35, 30 July 2007 (UTC) 21:04, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

  • Speedy Delete clearly fails WP:CORP. Eusebeus 18:16, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete mostly trivial coverage from sources and I dont think that's enough for a local business Corpx 23:59, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
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The result was Delete. Carlossuarez46 21:23, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] I'm Always Right

I'm Always Right (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) – (View AfD)

This article fails WP:WEB and WP:V. Its only claim to notability is the unverified assertion that a local radio station mentioned it once, the rest reads like an advertisement. With an Alexa ranks of 1,711,490 to boot, the article should be deleted RWR8189 21:02, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

  • Delete as non-notable advertisement. It is also impossible to make it conform to WP:NPOV without third-party sources. Jakew 21:41, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete unless somebody can establish notability through coverage from independent sources Corpx 23:58, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete unless notability is established Computerjoe's talk 16:44, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
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The result was delete. KrakatoaKatie 18:09, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Feral Scholar

Feral Scholar (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) – (View AfD)

Article fails WP:WEB and WP:V and should be deleted. This blog does not appear to notable, I have not been able to find non-trivial coverage of the blog in reliable sources, lots of chatter in the blogosphere but nothing verifiable. With an Alexa rank of 1,049,643, any remaining relevant information can be moved to Stan Goff. RWR8189 20:42, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

  • Delete. Blogs must pass WP:WEB independently of their author(s), preferably only having their own articles when there is substantial importance of the blog demonstrated. --Dhartung | Talk 22:48, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete per lack of sources talking about this blog Corpx 23:57, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
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The result was delete. KrakatoaKatie 18:04, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] GROGGS

GROGGS (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) – (View AfD)

Non-notable bulletin board system. It had a following among geeks at Cambridge University in the 1980s and 1990s but is almost totally unknown outside Cambridge. The article has been a stub for quite some time now and does not cite any references or sources to establish notability. — jammycakes (t)(c) 20:07, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

  • Delete unless reliable third-party sources can be found. Jakew 21:42, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete per lack of notability Corpx 23:57, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
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The result was redirect to List of non-player characters in Diablo#Deckard Cain. 'KrakatoaKatie 13:31, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Deckard Cain

Deckard Cain (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) – (View AfD)

I'm pretty sure it's a hoax. Has no sources or references Pheonix15 20:19, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

  • Delete, fails WP:RS, WP:V. The first Google hit is a YTMND page. Ten Pound Hammer • (Broken clamshells•Otter chirps•Review?) 20:40, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Speedy Delete fails WP:A7 at the very least. May be a hoax based on a character in the Diablo game series. --Bfigura (talk) 20:43, 29 August 2007 (UTC) Redirect per Chunky Rice. --Bfigura (talk) 01:45, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete looks like fancruft built on the Diablo games, this site explains how he fits in there. Content is unencyclopedic and would require complete re-write to get it otherwise. Delete w/o prejudice for re-creation, in case someone is able to build a decent article about the character and his role in the game. Hersfold (t/a/c) 21:20, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete - It appears as a Diablo-based hoax and has ne references, to say the least. TheInfinityZero 21:42, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Redirect Looks hoaxy, but could be a legitmate redirect to List_of_minor_characters_in_Diablo#Deckard_Cain. -Chunky Rice 23:18, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Redirect per Chunky Rice as he is an important character in Diablo and Diablo II. The biographical information is a hoax so it should be deleted. A re-write might not be a good idea as he is not that notable in real life like say Cloud Strife. --Lenticel (talk) 01:34, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Comment Looks like there is a such character. Perhaps it should be a redirect. I still think the current content is a hoax though--Pheonix15 18:41, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
Oh, I think we all agree on that. -Chunky Rice 18:44, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Redirect per Chunky Rice. -- MacAddct1984 17:04, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Redirect as per above. -- Roleplayer 00:02, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
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The result was delete - original research with strong POV problems. KrakatoaKatie 18:17, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Power and Control

Power and Control (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) – (View AfD)

An unreferenced diatribe. Alksub 20:21, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

  • Strong delete - utterly incoherent, unstructured rambling original research, with no references. Oli Filth 20:23, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Comment I doubt it's original research but it could be clearer--Pheonix15 20:39, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete, not much more to say here, just ... wow. Eleland 20:24, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Weak Keep Wow! what an article. It could be rewritten to be more clear etc--Pheonix15 20:37, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete due to original research essay and lack of references. No prejudice against a sourced re-creation titled Power and control wheel which has numerous Ghits in domestic violence programs like this one. Canuckle 20:45, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete per Oli. It still sounds like a diatribe. Not to mention failing WP:RS. --Bfigura (talk) 20:50, 29 August 2007 (UTC) See below
  • Weak Keep pending cleanup and sourcing. It looks as though there is the makings of an article here. --Bfigura (talk) 01:29, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete Barely coherent essay - highly POV, with a good smattering of OR. Iain99 21:25, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete - as per Iain99 and created due to a possibility of a meds imbalance. --WebHamster 21:31, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
  • STRONG STRONG STRONG keep - it's an amazing article, the author is clearly working on it to provide references, detail and cleanliness. I cannot stress enough it must be kept. Surely Wikipedia must begin to look at these articles, and not destroy them, but allow people to improve them. Porterjoh 21:45, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Comment - Personally, I don't believe an article should be created until the author has the article mostly or completely finished. I've seen in the Newpages have a dozen times, an article that reads nothing but "Don't delete this, I'll work on it later". If an article does not yet meet stub requirements, it shouldn't be added to Wikipedia. TheInfinityZero 21:47, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
      • Comment - Well, take it off then, if the author can back it up. Porterjoh 21:51, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete OR - gotta go. MarkBul 22:15, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
  • keep - find some references for the poor newbie, and show what an encyclopedia is. The subject is fine, the article blows. --Rocksanddirt 22:36, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment - in an effort to at least make it readable I've re-formatted the article and done a basic wikification. You never know it may sway someone's vote :) --WebHamster 23:37, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    • first keep vote - thank you for each piece of constructive criticism, thank you in the highest order to WebHamster for an incredible clean up job (I have no idea how you did that) and thank you to Aqthoclea for suggesting Wiki styles and methods not yet known to me. I appreciate the POV perspective and humbly suggest that the Power and Control Over Women IS POV as is the Power and Control over Men, it seems to me however that with each on opposite sides of a scale the equal NPOV. OR the male perspective was peer reviewed without adverse comment through private letters, hence it is published and peer reviewed.That perspective has existed for over twenty years. The female perspective was simply inserted into the Public Domain purposefully with out claim to author or copyright. This persepctive has existed for more than thirty years.Both absolutely began as novel narratives of proposed conditions: they now have existed for so long as to be accepted concepts. The original Power and Control Wheel is now found in USA Government manuals and I have made request of friends on the cite, permission to cite and license to include. I am following a similar approach on the Power and Control over Males Wheel. The Power and Control concept as a political tool, and both wheels, are rambling, incoherent and probably less than precise and yet find their way into serious public policy discussions. There has been an assertion that the article is diatribe, I personally see no bitterness, abusive speech or satire: I do find it ironic to need to defend an effort at definition and illustration of political tools and concepts that have existed for decades. I apologise for my tardiness, cut and paste just is not working for me: I loose text, cites, hyperlinks et al, I do not know why. I apologise for this lengthy debate entry, if knowledge is power, than I seek only to impart some small part of power to each Wiki reader from some small understanding of a concept that has been used in the western world for a considerable period of time.BobV01 01:21, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Keep per Rocksanddirt but get get sources. Cheers, :) Dlohcierekim 02:16, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Awesome! Accurate, but references would be good.— Chadleek (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
    • Delete as OR or at least SYNTH. The only cited reference is another Wikipedia article. Dbromage [Talk] 04:12, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Comment I have added but a few references but I must sleep, friends are arriving to add links, references et al please hold onBobV01 05:44, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Comment - You have done an admirable job of tidying up the article, and making it more coherent and readable, so many thanks. However, the article does still fall short, in that it's still littered with POV and unreferenced claims, and I'm not sure whether directly repeating the content of the wheel is some sort of copyvio or not. I will try to address these concerns myself when I have more time later today. Oli Filth 08:05, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Comment Got a few more references in, and will substantiate "unreferenced claims", again sorry I am so slow. POV is a problem: there are essentailly two opposing POVs; again I assert that- two opposing POVS presented together net a NPOV, and yet I acknowledge the concern. On one side is a group who assert a global patriarchy and oppose gender neutral lanquage, on the other side is the other half of the world who assert their own instances of injustice and rights. A consistent problem has been weak empirical evidence, propaganda and POV discussions rather than NPOV. I really hope a Wiki editor complains about "so you got references, why are they not cited above" as in getting the little numbers next to the points in the body that the references substantiate. Other than caffiene, I am undrugged despite assertions to the contrary, and yet for them and my resultant smile - thank you: I have tried the style guide and help, and have to date, gotten no where.BobV01 14:32, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment An AfD discussion lasts for five days, so no need to drug yourself up with caffeine to get it finished :-) - there's plenty of time to improve the article. However, I suggest that you you read WP:NPOV throughly before you make any more edits. Too much of it still reads like a partisan essay rather than an encyclopaedia article. In particular, note that statements which are obviously matters of opinion need to be removed or else clearly ascribed to someone, not presented as fact. For example, do not say "Most notably obnoxious in the first Power and Control Wheel is the Economic Portion..." but rather something like "The Economic portion has been criticised by John Doe for 'denying budgets as a relevant family finance tool' (reference), but was defended by Joe Bloggs as '...' (another reference)". Also read WP:NOR and in particular the section on synthesis, as I think there's a bit of this in the article. Best, Iain99 16:06, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment I have labeled BobV01's three independent votes as "first, second, and third". Early and often... Eleland 14:47, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Comment I have added a few references and links, I have a whole body of empirical studies to reference yet, I truly need to get a few other things done first though.BobV01 15:36, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
      • Comment Just in case it wasn't clear, this is really pointless, and you're making your own side look dumb. Make your opinion known once, if you have more salient information, go ahead and post it, but don't give the impression you're trying to "stack" the debate. Eleland 15:41, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete per nom, riduculous original-research essay. wikipediatrix 00:47, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete This is an original research diatribe. There is nothing that can be salvaged here. The sources cited are not actually being used in an encyclopedic manner. Just because it "looks" like an article with good formatting does not mean that there is any encyclopedic content. Someone with some writing skills appropriate to Wikipedia's encyclopedic style could start from scratch writing an article about the "Power and Control Wheel" graphic, but nothing from this article (other than the graphic itself) would be useful for the new article. OfficeGirl 20:04, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Weak Keep. Needs cleanup and a great deal of format and NPOV work. Deletion of some OR wouldn't hurt either.(RookZERO 03:55, 2 September 2007 (UTC))
  • Delete - the article is a synthesis and therefore original research--Cailil talk 16:40, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Strong Delete Many of the sources don't even mention the text their supporting. Contains a lot of synthesis of published material. Even uses wikipedia as a "source". I don't think it's possible to clean this up. Even if it is notable, it would be best just to start over. Neitherday 16:43, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment I have, today, requested some reviews of the article, to date. I wondered what on Earth Neitherday could be talking about until I clicked first note that I got to, generally in the ball park, it probably is not my intended Footnote, Please be aware that others have been kind enough to help with formatting, and that there have been a few Foot Note and Reference additions: More importantly I added poorly formatted refs and foot notes, I cede without hesitation that the footnotes need reconcilliation, I intend to do that. Some may disagree, but I am not trying to advance a position, I hope the perception of synth comes from the footnote situation. Coments regarding POV are also welcome, I have attempted to correct that situation but remain unsure of my success.Thank you to everyone who has offered critiquesBobV01 17:18, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment In addition to the footnote reconcilliation, there are Wiki links to articles not yet written: Interpersonal relationships, misandry caucus to name but two, yes I have work to do.BobV01 17:30, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
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The result was delete. Author may wish to contribute to wikisource. Cool Hand Luke 03:25, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Population statistics for Israeli West Bank Outposts

Population statistics for Israeli West Bank Outposts (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) – (View AfD)

Possible speedy delete based on WP:RS, WP:NOT#STATS, WP:OR and possible WP:COPYVIO The leading paragraph of the article/page is a OR collection of unreferenced claims. In fact, EVERY sentence is POV and false. The article is missing context, the list lacks any form of logical structure, and both basically confusing to a reader unfamiliar with the subject or even one very familiar. The main section is a list which is merely a copy&pasted spreadsheet from a non-neutral and highly controversial organization and there is also virtually no way to verify/confirm the data. The disputed list already exists 1:1 on the 'source' website, there is no reason to reprint it again on WP. The list is not even legitimate material to merge to Population statistics for Israeli West Bank settlements Shuki 20:08, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

  • Note: This debate has been included in the list of Israel-related deletions. -- Shuki 20:14, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Neutral It's useful. You say every sentence is NPOV. I assume you mean POV or not-NPOV. You also seem angry--Pheonix15 20:31, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Thanks for pointing that out. Not angry, in fact I'm also surprisingly AGF on this one too. --Shuki 20:44, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
      • Comment Sorry for being a dick. I just thought that the reason for deletion seemed a bit agressive. Your reply seems to show that it wasn't meant to sound like that--Pheonix15 18:34, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
I'm not backing off the AFD or its reasons none of which accused the creator of POV or POINT (which would usually be expected whenever the subject of settlements in Israel is brought up). If the list, its premise and its data could be confirmed by an objective entity, then there might be a case to keep. Now that I think about it, the main subject at hand 'outposts' is not even explained/developed on the main 'Israeli settlement' article or otherwise so this list is like coming out of nowhere on top of everything else. --Shuki 19:52, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete It doesn't strike me as very non-neutral - could you provide an example? I will agree that we don't really need self-confessed statistical information, but if the article can be fleshed out some, this could be useful. It's hard to tell if the file is copyrighted or not, as the source site is in Hebrew and the search on the English version doesn't work. We of course have to assume copyright, so I'd say delete for now unless we can prove otherwise. Hersfold (t/a/c) 20:47, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Weak delete I'm not really familiar with the state of the settement articles, but I suspect this is a POV-fork of one of them, made for the purpose of introducing Peace Now statistics, which are probably contested by the government. As such, its simply the reprinting of a primary source with a bit of numerical analysis. That said, if it could be fleshed out into 'Demographics of Israeli Settlements in the West Bank', it might be useful. But, like List of Idol Temples above, that can be best done, IMO, by deletion and re-creation in time. Hornplease 01:16, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete or Transwiki per "Articles which are primarily comprised of statistical data may be better suited for inclusion in Wikisource as freely available reference material for the construction of related encyclopedic articles on that topic" in WP:NOT Corpx 23:55, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete-Unless major editing is done to this article, it should be deleted. The only source I see is a spreadsheet that gives no reference as to where it is from. Many of the outposts listed, are not considered outposts; for example the British police station. Another example is the outpost listed as unknown. How can you add an outpost to the list unknown. Nothing is listed under the outpost except that it is in Hebron hills. This article does not represent accurate facts in it's current format. Leppi 08:19, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. No sources given, written as a resume, clearly promotional. KrakatoaKatie 13:47, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Ben Bolt

Ben Bolt (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) – (View AfD)

Article is blatant copyvio. He is a non-notable subject. Not one single citation. Article's creator has removed PROD tag's, repeatedly. Possible COI. ScarianTalk 20:03, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

It's not a copyvio of that page, as the bottom of it indicated that it was copied from Wikipedia, not vice versa. FrozenPurpleCube 21:20, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete per WP:BIO. Even without copyright issues, I don't think this passes WP:N. (There certainly aren't any sources cited anyway). So unless someone wants to drastically improve it before the AfD runs out, delete. --Bfigura (talk) 21:30, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete Fails notability without references, and appears to be heavily edited by "Ben Bolt" himself, which could make it spam. The359 21:38, 29 August 2007 (UTC)


Comment: My name is Ben Bolt. I am the owner of the copyrights for all photos and www.benboltguitar.com. There is no legal reason to delete this article according to the rules of Wikipedia. I Ben Bolt have given permission to Wikipedia to use freely all information including all pictures. This article has been revised numerous times without any problems what so ever until now. Let us, allow Wikipedia to decide what is best in this case. Do you think that is fair? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Benbolt5 (talk • contribs) 21:40, August 29, 2007 (UTC)

  • Coment - A few things: there's no way we can no for sure whether you are the supossed Ben Bolt or not. In addition, articles aren't deleted on Wikipedia only for the purpose that the articles remain legal. I give Wikipedia permission to make an article about myself, but I doubt it'll happen, as I'm unnotable. Thirdly and lastly, this is how Wikipedia works. An administrator, at some point, will see this and, taking note of our comments, will decide what should be done to the article. TheInfinityZero 21:54, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment - I'll assume for the sake of argument that you are Ben Bolt. But, if you did write the article (as suggested by The359), this is somewhat frowned upon under WP:COI. The logic is that there is no way to write a neutral article about yourself. But even with COI/POV issues put aside, the article probably needs to be changed to prove notability to escape deletion. See WP:BIO. --Bfigura (talk) 22:22, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete non-notable, and written.... oddly. Just a mess, not salvagalbe. MarkBul 22:19, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete for multiple policy violations:lacks notability, reliable sources, and smacks of self-promotion, for starters. Biruitorul 22:22, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment this soruce says he is nationally known and published. Unfortunately, I'm not sure who he is known by, or if his books meet enough notability to warrant coverage of him. However, it should at least be looked into, to determine if the person meets any of the relevant notability criteria. Reliable sources as to some award, music, or other usage would be nice. If they can be found, this article might be raised to an appropriate standard. I am concerned with the subject of the article being involved, and I strongly recommend against that, however, I can't say that this is a copyvio, blatant or otherwise. FrozenPurpleCube 22:41, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
BTW, I suggest that somebody look at this person as regards Wikipedia:Notability (academics). FrozenPurpleCube 22:55, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment Just a note to point out that Ben Bolt is also a psuedonym used by Ottwell Bins [6]. I don't think the subject of the discussion has any published (or unpublished for that matter) books. --Bfigura (talk) 22:47, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
Let's see, Ottwell Binns died in 1935. [7] . Amazon search [8] gets me quite a few books published in the last 10 years? I think we can agree that Ottwell Binns didn't publish any of those. Unless he's a time traveling guitarist as well as a novelist? FrozenPurpleCube 22:55, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
Whoops. *inserts foot into mouth* Although a time-traveling guitarist would definitely be notable. --Bfigura (talk) 23:08, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete Non-notable, reads like a promo or resume. - Special-T 13:33, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment According to this source[[9]] Ben Bolt has written more than a dozen books still in print. It also states he has three best sellers, along with being a publishing visionary. Who cares? Can anybody tell me who's Mel Bay and Cherry Lane, his publishers? Where did all these no names come from? DELETE! Madamhuss Madamhuss 17:12, 30 August 2007 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Madamhuss (talk • contribs) 16:50, August 30, 2007 (UTC)
According to Music Trades [10] it's the foremost publisher of guitar instructions in the world. A similar statement is on this NPR [11] story. Apparently, Mel Bay has taught the world. Whether or not this guitarist merits coverage, I don't know, but the company/person certainly does. FrozenPurpleCube 18:50, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Oxymoron So, what we have here is a non-notable identity with a notable publisher that has bagged three best sellers? Evidently it is Mel Bay who has made the claim that Bolt is the first to use a new format for learning. That is note worthy. Why wasn't that fact stated in this article? I also looked this character up on his site. He seems to be friends with other guitarist's, David Russell and the Los Angeles Guitar Quartet. Both are grammy award winners according to Wikipedia 2004, 2005. Other friends include several international contest winners like Eduardo Fernandez? All with international carreers and many on major record labels. Bolt studied with many of the same teachers, Segovia and Carlevaro. Birds of a feather flock together? Maybe. However, I could have my picture taken with the Pope, I'm I Catholic? What is needed here is to put all the facts in context.Madamhuss 13:07, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment Many major publishers of music educational material claim revolutionary new teaching techniques as part of their advertising and marketplace hype. - Special-T 14:22, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete per WP:BEANS (all the good guidelines were already taken). Name-dropping is not the same as asserting the notability of the subject. Sheffield Steeltalkersstalkers 21:15, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Devil's advocate True however, is this no body really dropping names? The pictures were taken long before this deletion process started. Birds of a feather (never) flock together? We need to stay cool if we're going to get rid of this nonsense. If someone produces credible infomation before the 5 days, then what? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.19.138.230 (talk) 04:29, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment I've noticed numerous edits stating this article is being deleted as the reason for their edits. This includes anywhere in Wikipedia giving reference to this article. The five days aren't up, that is unless I can't count to five? What motive does any editor have to improve an article per Wikipedias invitation? This smells like a personal vendetta without a neutral point of view. No credible reasons are given in their edit summary. Why the harrassment? Where is Wikipedias bouncer? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.19.138.230 (talk) 18:31, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
    • Me, too. I have no previous knowledge of Ben Bolt, but I noticed this AFD because I had seen links to this article being deleted as "nonnotable."--orlady 18:58, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
  • BouncerHow it works is they evaluate after the trial period. It takes 5 days.Hookworm 20:45, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Save It is my opinion this article should be saved. The new edits address previous complaints to an acceptable standard. References have been placed. When looking at all of the other classical guitarists in Wikipedia, this article may not rank as the best, but certainly not the worst. Grounds for deletion based on, "I've never heard of this guitarist, delete" is not a sound justification for deletion. For example, suppose I haven't heard of everyone in Wikipedia. Does that justify my opinion to delete or edit an article without a just cause? Of course not. Please remember as editors, Wikipedia was founded on having access to information that one source can't possibly offer or understand. This is significant. Why? Because we care, that's why! Shall we as editors not think of Wikipedia first, and ourselves second? If we're honest with each other, I know we would all nod our heads and agree. SAVE! Hookworm 00:03, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment FWIW, two of the contributors to this discussion - Hookworm and Madamhuss - are brand-new users whose only edits are to this Afd page. - Special-T 19:24, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment Yes, but one could say the same thing about - Markbul —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.19.138.229 (talk) 20:06, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment Not sure what your point is, since there is no such user. - Special-T 20:34, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
I believe the commenter intended to refer to User:MarkBul--orlady 22:34, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Thank you. Different case, though: User:MarkBul began editing in June and has weighed in on many, many Afd discussions; the users I mentioned only created user names in the past few days, and their only edits are to this discussion. - Special-T 23:12, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
  • You might want to check on your facts. I went to their welcome page. Wikipedia welcomed them on August 29,2007. Only two entries in their history, both on the same day they created their account(s) 8/29/07. Now, when did they recommend to delete according to this page you are now reading? Read it and weep! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.19.138.229 (talk) 23:35, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
  • For the record. 156.34.219.247 has been a coward from the get-go. He is the one that is non notable. Editors beware! Can he show himself? Does he have the guts? 156.34.219.247 I have my doubts. I'm waiting. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.19.138.229 (talk) 01:04, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
Comment: Please do not be rude to other editors. Comment on content, not the contributor. ScarianTalk 08:09, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
Comment I don't see any edits to this page or to the article by IP 156.34.219.247. - Special-T 11:18, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
That user did not edit the article, but deleted most of the internal links pointing to it. Review Special:Contributions/156.34.216.159 --orlady 11:38, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
Again, thanks for your excellent detective work! - Special-T 12:13, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
That user 156.34.216.159 evidently edited classical guitarists as well. The user 142.166.250.52 edited this article twice on Aug. 29 with no previous edits on any other articles, and user 74.13.114.233 edited a total of 6 times, 5 of which were edits on this article. All were done in the last week of Aug. with no previous history to their credit. All three users come from Canada.

Now concerning my credibility. Madamhuss, Hookworm, and Hookworm2 are the same. Why would I have different accounts? Because mysteriously after some comments on this article I couldn't log in again. That's why. I had to create another account twice. Is it possible to delete an editor using computers where they can't login? You bet it is! Why? Because, the majority rules, and if one wants to delete, and another wants to keep, the deleters must discredit and get rid of the keepers at all costs. Now, let's see if Hookworm2 has problems with login. I bet not, but if that should happen, I'll be back. You can count on that. You can also count on Wikipedia to get to the bottom of this charade.Hookworm2 13:46, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

  • Case in point You're right it's MarkBul My mistake, they had their first two entries begining when this issue began. How convenient. The case in point. If there's no issue with copyvio and notability issues have been addressed, what are we talking about anyway? If you look at the history it's quite revealing. Bogus edits, correct undo of bogus edits back and forth until notification for delete. Putting everything into context it seems clear to me someone wants to delete Ben Bolt for personal reasons, far from neutral. Then go to the history on Classical Guitarists. That really gives it away. The article has merit. KEEP. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.19.138.229 (talk) 22:35, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep The fact that Ben Bolt has written many music books for Mel Bay (a major player in the field of music education publications) convinces me that he's notable (see his bio and pub list at http://www.melbay.com/authors.asp?author=35). The article here was created/edited by people who don't know wikipedia conventions, but that's not a reason to completely trash it. Fix the article, but keep it.--orlady 19:25, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete non-notable Peter Fleet 02:42, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
I noticed you are from Canada and you think editors should login to make comments. I agree. We should always be able to login. Hookworm2 14:01, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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The result was Speedy Keep. Non-admin closure. Hersfold (t/a/c) 20:59, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Daniel Wayne Smith

AfDs for this article:
Articles for deletion/Daniel Wayne Smith Articles for deletion/Daniel Wayne Smith (2nd nomination)
Daniel Wayne Smith (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) – (View AfD)

Non-notable IamMcLovin 19:50, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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The result was merge and redirect to poodle hybrids. MastCell Talk 17:47, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Pekeapoo

Pekeapoo (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) – (View AfD)

Contested prod. With only one source that does not comprehensively deal with the breed (What's Your Dog's IQ? is the title), the subject clearly fails the criteria of WP:N. While poodle hybrids in general are notable, this breed when taken alone is not. Delete and redirect to the aforementioned article. As a side note: the breed is probably recognized by the American Canine Hybrid Association. Considering that the only requirement for "official recognition" by this organization is the payment of $5 fee, it is not in any way a reliable barometer of notability. VanTucky (talk) 19:46, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

  • Delete Poo dogs must go - non-notable. MarkBul 19:51, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

*Delete non-notable "breed" and unreferenced article. Only 700 hits on google for the name Pekapoo. Jerazol 21:04, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

  • Redirect to poodle hybrid. -- Karada 09:21, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep. I came to this debate from reviewing another, unrelated article that links to Peekapoo, and was surprised to see a debate on deletion. Counting the various spellings I get over 100,000 web hits on Google, so it seems to be a fairly popular breed. (Try searching for "peekapoo" rather than "pekeapoo" - the former appears to be more widely accepted (93,000 hits), though the latter is probably more proper (9,000 hits). Jerazol appears to have searched for "pekapoo," which is not a widely-used spelling - and still found 700 hits.) Not to commit a Pokemon error, but we have dozens of variations of orchids. Such is the beauty of Wikipedia -- we can include not only "orchid" but also "rare orchid that grows only in the wilds of East Patagonia." So what would be the rationale behind excluding a widely available variation of dog? I'd argue for keep.--TheOtherBob 00:32, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment Notability is verified solely though reception of significant coverage in reliable, published sources. Passing a Google test, when not a single decent source for verification of facts exists, is not an acceptable reason to keep an article. The recent commercial viability of this hybrid does not entail firm notability. Your last arguments about orchids boil down to WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS. The bottom line is: no reliable published sources focus significantly on this dog, which both suggests it is not notable and prevents the necessary verification of any info in the article. If a subject cannot be sourced, then it should not have an article. VanTucky (talk) 00:40, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
To take your points in reverse order, I noted that my orchid argument sounds like a "Pokemon error" so I understand your objection. However, the argument is not that other stuff (i.e. Pokemon) exists, but rather than an established rule for inclusion of biological variations exists. (If you're confused about the distinction let me know; I'm glad to explain, but don't want to make this response overlong.) If we apply the same rule to dogs that we do to anything else in the natural world, we would include all reliably-sourced variations. So your best counter is that the peekapoo is not accepted as a separate, distinct variation by reliable sources (this is your notability argument).
However the notability of peekapoos as a recognized, distinct variation can be easily sourced. Let's start with the dog breed web encyclopedias: [12],[13], and [14]. Next we have no less than the New York Times as a source. [15] Then we have the books, e.g. The Complete Idiots Guide to Designer Dogs [16], and The Complete Guide to Mutts: Selection, Care and Celebration from Puppyhood to Senior. And finally we have the thousands of websites by people who own, sell, or just like the breed. See, e.g. [17]. (The 100,000 Google hits, while not reliable sources in themselves, are highly persuasive evidence that the breed is recognized as a distinct variation.) Given all that, it seems clear that this is an accepted, reliably-sourced variation of an animal, and that we would ordinarily have an article about it. --TheOtherBob 04:14, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
The idea that this should be kept simply because it exists is not valid either. We deal with subject because they are notable. The sources you have just given are trivial. None of them significantly deal with this variety of dog alone in any fashion, but generally deal with poodle hybrids. Not one of those sources demands that this article be kept separate from a larger article on poodle hybrids. Again, a Google test is not an acceptable way of passing judgment on the notability of subjects. Popularity or commercial viability is not to be conflated with the Wikipedia standard of WP:N, as you can clearly tell from the history of articles such as Cavachon, Boglen, and Bassador. VanTucky (talk) 15:37, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
I don't believe I ever suggested that a breed should be kept merely because it existed. Rather, I'm arguing that when you have an accepted, sourced variation, it should be included -- just as with any other animal. The standard I'm explaining complies much more closely with the notability standards than yours would -- you would delete an article about a breed in the face of multiple, independent, reliable sources discussing it. It's funny, when you get in a debate like this and someone takes the position that no citations exist -- then you show them citations, and they say "oh, well, then those are trivial." They're not - several are multi-page explanations of the breed, care and feeding, etc. Even the New York Times is more than trivial, as it explains what a peekapoo is and recognizes it as an separate breed. The sources I've cited don't limit themselves to "poodle hybrids," as you suggest. But even if a source generally discussed the various poodle hybrids, we would ordinarily include those discussed therein. Consider the case of the Brown-chested Martin, a type of swallow. Are there books solely about such martins? No - they appear in encyclopedias of swallows. But would we nonetheless typically have an article about them? Of course - it's an accepted, sourced variation. As to the old Google test, the idea that notability is not fame is correct -- but commercial viability and popularity strongly suggest notability. (Or, to put it another way, you don't have to be famous to be notable, but if you are famous, you're probably notable as well.) If there are thousands of people discussing a breed of dog, then it makes sense to say that the breed is notable -- to step out of Wikipedia for a second, it's more than a little bizarre to say that so many people have taken note of something that we don't deem "notable." As to the examples you cite...I don't know, are you just trying to tell me that Other Stuff Doesn't Exist? Sure, other stuff was deleted, and perhaps properly so, perhaps not. If those breeds lacked reliable sources, etc., then bravo. If they were deleted in the face of reliable sources, as you propose here, then we screwed up. --TheOtherBob 16:11, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
This idea that confirmed variations in breed/type/subspecies should automatically be notable does not comply with any of the current variations of WP:N and is not a standard that is grounded in either firm precedent or policy. Your statements about "recognizing it as a separate breed" are false, as the only official body to recognize the pekeapoo as a breed is the American Canine Hybrid Association, which is a paid recognition association that is widely discredited as a promotional body. The pekeapoo is not a breed in most basic definition of that phrase as it applies to dogs, it is a type of hybrid. Considering the massive amount of Google hits and such that would suggest notability for a truly notable type such as Labradoodles, the pekeapoo pales in comparison. In consideration of the multitude of popular varieties of hybrid, this particular one has simply not received the amount of individual coverage to suggest it is more notable than deleted or redirected articles such as Cockeranian, Chug or others. VanTucky (talk) 16:21, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
Again with "Other Stuff Doesn't Exist." Perhaps we should not have deleted those as well - I don't know. Your argument, then, seems to be not that reliable sources are required, but that recognition by some sort of "official body" is required. That does not comply with WP:N -- if reliable sources (as here) devote non-trivial attention, then the breed is notable regardless of whether the AKC or any other governing body agrees. It is recognized by reliable sources as a separate breed, hybrid, or whatever - whether it is its own breed, species, genus, if reliable sources are devoting substantial attention to it, it's a notable _____. (Fill in the blank with whatever you like - the important part is the "notable.") --TheOtherBob 16:33, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
I wasn't saying notability had to be confirmed for dogs through an "official source". I was saying that you are incorrect in calling this a breed. It neither has distinct, concrete characteristics that "breed true", nor is it recognized by anyone but the ACHA. Notability is confirmed through significant coverage in reliable sources. VanTucky (talk) 03:41, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
And I'm saying that it doesn't matter whether it's a breed or an imaginary unicorn; its notability is confirmed through the significant coverage in the reliable sources discussed above. --TheOtherBob 12:48, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
No, when the reliable sources only provide trivial coverage, bits of information of small importance in the rest of the source and single-sentence dicdefs, then the article fails WP:N. simply having sources does not equal automatic notability. Sources must sufficiently allow for the verification of facts, and the sources provided now fail to do so. One the sources even fails the requirements of WP:RS. Brandweek, a minor trade publication that reprints press releases and acts as a booster, isn't a reliable source. VanTucky (talk) 01:33, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
Well, I hadn't responded because (a) I have a job, and (b) this conversation has pretty much reached a conclusion - we're looking at the same sources, but where I see multiple reliable sources and significant coverage, you see...well, I guess you don't see anything (which is fine -- people can look at the same things and disagree). Nonetheless, I should respond to the last bit you added, where you said that Brandweek was not a reliable source. I guess what you're saying there is that Brandweek is not reliable because there's a danger that it just re-printed a press release issued by...peekapoos. (Ok, this just became the most absurd conversation two adults (presumably) have ever had.) Seriously, though, I'm sure Brandweek does re-print press releases. However, it has an editorial staff and also publishes its own (edited) articles, as I understand it has done since about 1986. Sure it's a trade publication -- but the trade is marketing, and in any event no one has ever suggested that trade publications were not reliable sources. Even local newspapers are reliable sources in most cases -- there's no reason at all to think that this publication would not be. You have a decent (if wrong, in my view) argument here -- no need to press it to absurdity, man. And now back to work. --TheOtherBob 02:19, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
Oh, I'm sorry. When I said they weren't a reliable source, I just assumed you would not take it mean I was suggesting dogs are printing press releases. My bad. However, the idea that unscrupulous breeders looking to make a quick profit with a popular variety of dog would attempt to boost their visibility by doing so is not absurd. Brandweek is not a reliable source whatever the subject matter. Sources don't magically become reliable because it is impossible or unlikely that they are being influenced by outside forces on the subject. When a source is known to have poor fact checking and they are generally considered to prejudiced (say, in favor of businesses and products potentially profitable), it is not reliable. VanTucky (talk) 02:39, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
Oh, I'm sorry, they must not have jokes in Kentucky (seriously, man, get a grip - we're talking about a type of dog, we can have senses of humor). Anyways, I see absolutely nothing to suggest that the article in Brandweek was written by breeders (or peekapoos...) Maybe we've hit upon the problem here - you think that this article, and all reliable sources out there, are written by "unscrupulous breeders." I see no evidence of that whatsoever -- no conspiracy to promote a breed, but rather an acknowledgement of the fact that it exists and has become popular. So Brandweek is "generally considered to be prejudiced" in favor of businesses (as opposed to the WSJ, that old bastion of consumer-friendly writing.) Generally considered by whom? "Known to have poor fact checking" by whom? The author of this particular story, Ginger Danto, appears to also write for the New York Times, [18], and nothing in her article suggests any bias towards or against the subject. Indeed, a quick search at the NY Times shows that they find Brandweek reliable enough to cite [19], so I really don't see where you're coming from. Throwing weasel words around to try to discredit what appears by all accounts to be a reliable publication is grasping for straws -- and you don't need to...your argument is otherwise credible (if, again, wrong in my view). --TheOtherBob 03:33, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
Forgive me for not thinking you could just be joking. But as to the idea that I think the article, or any other poodle hybrid article, is written solely by breeders...I don't. It's not only implausible, but the edit history doesn't suggest it. I am saying however, that there is nothing in the is article that cannot be included in the general poodle hybrid article. I'm not sure who added it, but the article even admits that pekeapoos have "few distinguishing characteristics". I think the sources in the article verify strongly that the dog is notable enough to include prominently in a list of common poodle hyrbids, but I am firm in the belief that they do not support pekeapoos being notable enough for an entire separate article. VanTucky (talk) 03:52, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete. Reliable sources do not seem to exist, so fails WP:N. Cool Hand Luke 03:27, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Redirect/Merge to/with poodle hybrid. - The hybrid is basically just a combination of 2 breeds, which are already described in separate articles. Since there are so many potential hybrids, it seems more reasonable not to have a separate article on each, but instead a single article on poodle hybrids, which mentions/discusses the different common hybrids available Jerazol 13:00, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Note: This debate has been included in the list of Organisms-related deletions. -- John Vandenberg 03:36, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
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The result was Delete per WP:MADEUP and WP:SNOWBALL. -- 09:28, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Quadicle

Quadicle (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) – (View AfD)

Contested prod. After a plea by an IP editor in an edit summary I left the article, heavily tagged, for a few weeks, and asked the creator and major editor to address my concerns re: WP:VERIFY, WP:NOR, WP:NEO and WP:MADEUP. Two weeks later and no change (that'll teach me!). The main grounds for nomination are lack of verifiability - or indeed any proof of existence. I think just the "History of the Quadiclists" section qualifies it. kateshortforbob 19:28, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

  • Delete Hoax, or non-notable at best. MarkBul 19:52, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete as utter bollocks. Quadicle Society? Mass quadiclicide? *head asplode* Tony Fox (arf!) 20:07, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Hugely Strong Delete as QBS (according to the article, Quadicle B.S.) It starts out shaky and just gets worse from there. Hersfold (t/a/c) 20:53, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete per nom. Wikipedia is not the Urban Dictionary. Fails WP:NEO strongly. --Bfigura (talk) 20:54, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete - as per everyone else. Until I read the article I thought it was about a condition of someone with 4 testicles :0 --WebHamster 21:36, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete I think this must be a hoax. I'm pretty sure it's unsourceable: Google returns basically nothing except for WP and some myspace links. Jakew 21:50, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete - It seems like either a hoax or spam. Either way, it's got to go. TheInfinityZero 21:58, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Early closing, see above. -- Karada 09:26, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
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The result was Delete. Carlossuarez46 21:24, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Sonny Gambino

Sonny Gambino (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) – (View AfD)

No real assertion of notability (other than was son/grandson), no references, and full of highly-contentious claims. Google brings up 26 hits; most appear to be unrelated. Article has already been speedied once. Oli Filth 19:03, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

  • Delete fails WP:BIO, as no sources cited also fails WP:BLP. Hut 8.5 19:15, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete as suspected hoax. Any Gambino member this important would show up in Google News Archive or Google Books. There was a Salvatore Gambino, but he was born in the 1930s. --Dhartung | Talk 19:18, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete as per Oil. ScarianTalk 20:56, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete - Where are the sources? TheInfinityZero 22:02, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete. I'm not convinced that this is a hoax (there are a number of hits for "Salvatore Gambino" in Google's News and Books). However, the WP:BLP issues are so severe that I think that the best thing is to delete the article for the time being. I have no objection to recreation of the article with reliable sources cited throughout. Jakew 23:08, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete per nom.--Bigtimepeace | talk | contribs 18:19, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete per nom. Dsol 09:22, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete per all above, plus recommend salting as I believe it is likely this will be recreated in much the same format. --cholmes75 (chit chat) 18:55, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
Agree this needs to be salted, editor who created it is placing references to Sonny G in a number of other articles, for example, 1950.--Bigtimepeace | talk | contribs 19:11, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment - now the content of this article has been blanked by an admin for serious breach of WP:BLP, I believe we can move straight to a speedy delete. Oli Filth 21:09, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
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The result was Delete. Carlossuarez46 21:25, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Dr. Cathy Wendland-Colby

Dr. Cathy Wendland-Colby (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) – (View AfD)

Not Notable Notwoohoo 19:01, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

  • Delete as a resume, but next time you nominate can you give a better reason than this — iridescent (talk to me!) 19:13, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete per WP:NOT. --Bfigura (talk) 20:55, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete - Appears to fall under biography rules and was probably made by Cathy Colby herself, breaking point-of-view requirements. TheInfinityZero 22:07, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Comment There's nothing in WP:COI to forbid writing about yourself as long as it's properly sourced etc — iridescent (talk to me!) 22:27, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
  • 'Delete "best chiropractor in town' in a town of 20,000 is not ntoabiity for wp purposes. DGG (talk) 00:13, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete not notable. Sasha Callahan 05:37, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
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The result was Keep. Carlossuarez46 00:09, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Chris Carter (baseball)

Chris Carter (baseball) (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) – (View AfD)

Non-notable minor league baseball player, has not played in the major leagues, fails WP:BASEBALL. "Could" make the roster if a happens, and b happens, and if he's good enough in spring training. WP:CRYSTAL. Corvus cornix 18:34, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

  • Note: This debate has been included in the list of baseball-related deletions. —Truest blue 16:26, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep. The guy as i can see was not bad in college. The references cover all the material un the article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by M.V.E.i. (talk • contribs) 18:38, August 29, 2007 (UTC)
  • Speedy Keep per WP:BIO "Competitors who have played in a fully professional league, or a competition of equivalent standing in a non-league sport such as swimming or tennis." WP:BASEBALL is not a Wikipedia policy.Smashville 18:59, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep, passes WP:RS, WP:V, WP:N. Ten Pound Hammer • (Broken clamshells•Otter chirps•Review?) 19:03, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep, meets WP:BIO standard of having played in a fully professional league. Kinston eagle 19:25, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Speedy Keep not only passes WP:BIO, but I can also say without a doubt that reliable sources exist for him. He could even make the majors (which isn't a condition of WP:BIO) in 3 days or so. New England Review Me!/Go Red Sox! 20:01, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep He has made some all-star teams in the minors which makes him notable. Someone really needs to work on that article though.. too much POV guess work about his future.. "he could be the starter next year..." yea, well.. so could lots of other people... Spanneraol 20:42, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep. Minor league All-Stars are notable, and there's basically a 99% chance that Carter is going to go on the Red Sox's 40-man roster at the end of the year anyway (since he's a good prospect and would otherwise be eligible for the Rule 5 draft). -Hit bull, win steak(Moo!) 21:15, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete Minor league baseball players are not all notable. The WP:BIO is a guideline, not law, and the "every player that has stepped on a field" guideline is much disputed. Dannycali 22:07, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Weak Keep - Although I, personally, prefer a more meaty article for athletics, the article seems to meet article standards. It meets the WP:BIO requirements. TheInfinityZero 22:09, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete Minor League All-Star doesn't cut it for me, currently it's more or less a nn minor league player with crystal ball written all over it. Jaranda wat's sup 23:17, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment We have been here before,-- the specific rules take precedence over the more general--that's why they were written. Otherwise there would be need for nothing besides WP:N. Specific guidelines can be changed. Utill they are changed they are in effect, but this of course does not mean a particular article cannot be notable in some particular way. That I cannot judge. DGG (talk) 00:11, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep - Okay, he is not a major league player, but he appears to have been a pretty good college player on a very good college team, has been a good minor league player, and the article seems to meet article standards. It meets the WP:BIO requirements.John1951 02:18, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Speedy Keep. Has made minor league All Star teams, and has terrific AAA stats. If we delete it now, we'll just be remaking it in a year or two. There is an article on Charlie Zink, who has never played a proffesional ball game. Kntrabssi 12:11, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
    Aw, crap, I still have to clean that one up. -Hit bull, win steak(Moo!) 16:55, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep passes WP:BIO Sasha Callahan 05:40, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete per WP:BASEBALL--Truest blue 16:26, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
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The result was Keep. Carlossuarez46 00:11, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Juan Miranda

Juan Miranda (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) – (View AfD)

Non-notable minor league baseball player, has never played in the major leagues, fails WP:BASEBALL. Corvus cornix 18:32, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

  • Note: This debate has been included in the list of baseball-related deletions. —Truest blue 16:26, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep. He is in a big team and i dont belive they paud for him 2 million $ without a reason. Give him time, and so about the article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by M.V.E.i. (talk • contribs) 18:40, August 29, 2007 (UTC)
  • Speedy Keep per WP:BIO "Competitors who have played in a fully professional league, or a competition of equivalent standing in a non-league sport such as swimming or tennis." WP:BASEBALL is not a Wikipedia policy. Smashville 19:28, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep, meets WP:BIO standard of having played in a fully professional league. Kinston eagle 19:28, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Not a triple A player (which I consider "fully proffesional"), fails WP:N so Delete and WP:BASEBALL is not policy (I removed that section until it's discussed better on the proposed athletes page). Jaranda wat's sup 19:50, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Keep as former Cuban National League player, I don't agree with Double-A reasoning though. Jaranda wat's sup 22:25, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep all players in Double-A are paid, therefore it is fully professional, therefore he passes WP:BIO. New England Review Me!/Go Red Sox! 19:55, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
Same with semi-proffesional players, they are paid, samw wih teachers, lawyers, etc, getting paid isn't a reason for keeping an article. Jaranda wat's sup 19:57, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
It is when the policy states that it is. WP:BIO says, as I mentioned above, "Competitors who have played in a fully professional league, or a competition of equivalent standing in a non-league sport such as swimming or tennis." Minor league baseball is a fully professional, not a semi-professional system. It's not a matter for interpretation, it's a known fact. Smashville 20:00, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Strong keep, double-A is professional enough for WP:BIO. Ten Pound Hammer • (Broken clamshells•Otter chirps•Review?) 20:33, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep Seems to be lots of media coverage of his status as a "cuban defector".. Article needs to be polished up a bit though. Spanneraol 20:36, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete I have never seen anything that any player who hit AA baseball is instantly notable. A lot of this also fails WP:CRYSTAL Dannycali 22:09, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep - Although I understand about people considering the article a breaker of the Crystalball and WP:BIO, I believe that the article fits WP:Bio fine. TheInfinityZero 22:16, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Note I am making a proposal for sports notabilty at User:Jaranda/Notabilty (sports). Right now it's a very rough draft but it will include atheletes, seasons, games, etc. Jaranda wat's sup 22:29, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Jaranda, I noticed that the hockey guidelines you posted allow for the inclusion of minor league all-stars. Spanneraol 00:25, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
    • I didn't write it though, copied from their guidelines, also first-team all-star means started on the all-star team which is like 6-7 players in a team. I'm writing the baseball one, but open for discussion on it of course Jaranda wat's sup 00:52, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete, non-notable minor league player who has not played any professional baseball. I've seen plenty of articles (and AFDs) on AA players and found no evidence that all AA minor leaguers are inherently notable. --Coredesat 21:12, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Keep given that he was on the Cuban national team. --Coredesat 01:00, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep. I don't think his limited minor-league service gives him notability, but he was on the Cuban national team. --Fabrictramp 21:58, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Let me see a link of that and I'll change my vote to Keep Jaranda wat's sup 22:23, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
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The result was Keep. Carlossuarez46 00:12, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Alan Horne

Alan Horne (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) – (View AfD)

Non-notable minor league player who has never played in the major leagues. Fails WP:BASEBALL. Corvus cornix 18:30, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

  • Note: This debate has been included in the list of baseball-related deletions. —Truest blue 16:12, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep. He made nice achievments in the league he was in. —Preceding unsigned comment added by M.V.E.i. (talk • contribs) 18:40, August 29, 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep, meets WP:BIO standard of having played in a fully professional league. Kinston eagle 19:30, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Speedy Keep per WP:BIO "Competitors who have played in a fully professional league, or a competition of equivalent standing in a non-league sport such as swimming or tennis." WP:BASEBALL is not a Wikipedia policy. Smashville 19:34, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
  • WP:BASEBALL is not policy, borderline in WP:BIO as minor leagues, especially the Eastern League which is an A league not the highest league and a good 90% of the players don't make it to the Big Leagues, "nice achievements" isn't a reason for keeping, Delete Pitcher of the year in Double-A is ok I guess, Weak Keep without prejudice to future AFD if he fails to reach the big leagues. Jaranda wat's sup 19:47, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
The policy says nothing about "highest" league. It says "fully professional league". Minor Leaguers are all paid what is considered a living wage to play baseball. Every single athlete in the system is a professional. Therefore, it is a fully professional league. Smashville 19:58, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep passes WP:BIO since he plays in Double-A, which is fully professional. And this is coming from a Red Sox fan. New England Review Me!/Go Red Sox! 19:59, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep Eastern League Player of the Year honors make him notable. Spanneraol 20:30, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep. The award is actually "Pitcher of the Year",[20] but it's still enough of a significant accomplishment to make him notable among minor league players. -Hit bull, win steak(Moo!) 21:10, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Weak keep because of Pitcher of the Year. --Fabrictramp 21:56, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
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The result was Keep. Carlossuarez46 00:13, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Grand Prix Arizona

Grand Prix Arizona (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) – (View AfD)

Race was never run and has now been canceled as of 8/28 by the promoters and Champ Car. No previous runnings of this event exist as this was to have been the innagural year. See: link JohnnyBGood t c VIVA! 18:31, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

  • I'm not entirely sure where I stand on this. The fact that the event was cancelled in spite of local government support and a lot of lead-up work may be in itself notable. It certainly seems to pass notability standards as there are adequate reliable sources regarding this event, but as you state, it never happened. I'm going to err on the side of caution and say weak keep due its notability even as a non-event. ɑʀкʏɑɴ 18:37, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep. It's nicely written and we cant know about the future. —Preceding unsigned comment added by M.V.E.i. (talk • contribs) 18:41, August 29, 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep. An inaugural fully planned out major sporting event cancelled in the middle of the season seems extremely notable. Smashville 19:05, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Note - I've rewritten the article to take care of a lot of copy-and-paste material as well as source some of the statements. ɑʀкʏɑɴ 19:22, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep Some things are notable even if they don't happen, some things are even more notable for not happening. This might be one of the latter. FrozenPurpleCube 19:29, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep, I agree, some things are notable even for not happening, and this is one of them. Passes WP:RS. Ten Pound Hammer • (Broken clamshells•Otter chirps•Review?) 20:35, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Strong Keep, other defunct motorsport venues have articles, and as M.V.E.i. stated, we cannot foresee the future. --Aika 21:49, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
  • True defunct venues have articles, but this isn't a defunct venue. It was never a venue to begin with. You have to run a race somewhere before it can become defunct. JohnnyBGood t c VIVA! 21:58, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
It may never have happened, but the mere anticipation of it happening makes for a case of notability on its own. FrozenPurpleCube 00:58, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
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The result was Keep. @pple complain 14:47, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Yorkie poos

Yorkie poos (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) – (View AfD)

Contested prod. The sources added by the user who contested the prod in no way meet the qualification of "significant coverage". The first is a one-sentence news mention from 1968 (long before poodle hybrids gained the immense popularity they enjoy today), the other two are general books on canine hybrids which do not focus specifically on this breed. I removed a citation to a wall calendar featuring the hybrid, as it in no way comes under the definition of a RS. While poodle hybrids in general are very notable, this breed is decidedly not so when taken on its own. Its only real "claim to fame" is perhaps membership in the American Hybrid Canine Association, but that only entails that a $5 fee was paid to "officially recognize" the breed. Delete and redirect to poodle hybrids. VanTucky (talk) 18:09, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

  • Delete and redirect to poodle hybrids, per nom, for lack of reliable sources. Ten Pound Hammer • (Broken clamshells•Otter chirps•Review?) 18:15, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Redirect per the exact same reasoning I gave for the Lhasa Poo AfD. Hersfold (t/a/c) 18:32, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Redirect - Yep. I guess someone could pull up some Reliable sources, but the point is, is that the breed by itself does not appear very WP:N even with sources. --Tλε Rαnδom Eδιτor (tαlk) 19:12, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep: My sources satisfy "Significant coverage is more than trivial but less than exclusive." I'll also point out that if Amazon sells calendars, license plates, t-shirts, and stuffed animals specific to Yorkie Poos, that's clear evidence of notability. Billgordon1099 19:27, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment Unfortunately, one-sentence mentions and other small sections of larger works are trivial. None of the sources focus solely and significantly on the breed, and needless to say, Amazon.com cannot be used as a reliable source to verify encyclopedic information. If no reliable way of verifying factual assertions exists, and no published sources exclusively and comprehensively deal with the subject, then having an article is inappropriate. The commercial exploitation of something is not a reliable barometer of notability; case in point, there are hundreds of thousands of pornographic sites in every language focusing on any bizarre fetish imaginable. But we do not consider them notable. Popularity and commercial marketability are not synonyms for the concept of notability. I would also like to indicate that this would seem to be a WP:POINT issue with user Billgordon, as every single contest to a related prod he has made so far included the edit summary "'No to deletionism". VanTucky (talk) 19:35, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep. Nor, of course, are there any sources devoted solely to the Brown-chested Martin; rather, it's covered in a book about swallows. This breed of dog appears to have received significant coverage in reliable, independent sources -- the mentions therein are more than trivial, though less than exclusive, as WP:RS requires. Indeed, it appears that there is a breed club [21], and quite a few websites devoted to the breed. To address the WP:POINT issue, remember to assume good faith; people who consistently disagree with you aren't thereby making a WP:Point. --TheOtherBob 13:09, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
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The result was delete due to lack of reliable sources to establish notability. For the record, as far as I can tell, there was never an AfD regarding this subject, just infractions of CSD A7 and G12, so the content was not subject to speedy deletion as a re-creation of material deleted by an XfD discussion. — TKD::Talk 04:26, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Schatar Taylor

Schatar Taylor (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) – (View AfD)

This article has been deleted before under different page names, and the character does not pass WP:BIO Gamer83 18:30, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

  • Delete I agree this is a non-notable person. If the page is a true recreation post AfD, then speedy, WP:CSD#G4. Flyguy649 talk contribs 18:37, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete Reality show contestants who do not win are nonnotable. Speedy if it's a recreation, per Flyguy.--Sethacus 20:58, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete per WP:NOT#NEWS - Has not done anything notable outside the show Corpx 01:29, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Do Not Delete She has had more credits than just Flavor of Love and Flavor of Love Girls: Charm School. She has had many academic and singing achievements as well. There is enough information and credits about her to sustain the article. Besides, I worked really hard on it. :D ~Drew
    • Comment None of which is sourced at all......And how hard you worked on the page is totally irrelevant.Gamer83 19:31, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment This AFD from 6 days ago was ignored for some reason....Gamer83 17:48, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
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The result was delete; redundant. Mackensen (talk) 18:50, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] List of London streets and roads

List of London streets and roads (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) – (View AfD)

Redundant list. There is already two categories for streets and roads in London. New England Review Me!/Go Red Sox! 17:36, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

  • Keep. A useful list that needs expansion. —Preceding unsigned comment added by M.V.E.i. (talk • contribs) 18:43, August 29, 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete (sorry Regan!) The categories adequately cover the list aspect of this. The entries on the individual roads don't add any further information that would be lost if moved to a category. The list only covers roads that already have pages, so the "we'll lose the redlinks" argument doesn't apply here. Finally, this has far too much potential to spiral into an indiscriminate list of information, since so many people will want to add the street where they live/their favourite singer lives/their school is etc — iridescent (talk to me!) 19:20, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment I've notified WP:LT and WP:LONDON of this AfD, as users with enough of an interest in the subject to have informed keep/delete arguments are most likely to be loitering on one or the other — iridescent (talk to me!) 19:25, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
  • This could not possibly include every street in London. That way, we would have more articles on streets than any other in the whole of Wikipedia! Instead rename to something like Notable streets in London so that it only includes those which are very well known, such as Pall Mall and Old Kent Road. But then again even this is a bit of a grey area. Simply south 19:42, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete This would mean that every street in the world needs listing in Wikipedia. Wikipedia is not an encyclopedia of everything. MarkBul 19:57, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete unless additional, noteable information can be inserted. as per WP:DIRECTORY. This is a category. Tbo 157talk 20:21, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep - additional information can be added to this list if it is not deleted. Such as an explanation of what each street is famous for. The Transhumanist 22:00, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete - Fails WP:Directory. Every street doesn't need a Wikipedia page. TheInfinityZero 22:27, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete - Duplicates category. Regan123 22:37, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete as redundant to category. Interesting but doesn't need an article. Thin Arthur 05:56, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep only if expanded to include info not in the category. — AjaxSmack 08:16, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete much as it pains me, however there is little more here than can be easily categorised. -- Roleplayer 00:28, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete per iridescent. shoy 19:12, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
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The result was Delete. -- Anonymous DissidentTalk 06:35, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Korea Kwangop Trading

Korea Kwangop Trading (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) – (View AfD)

No assertion of notability. Google search yields only 194 hits, and no hits on google news. New England Review Me!/Go Red Sox! 17:21, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

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The result was no consensus, defaulting to keep. Can't sleep, clown will eat me 04:27, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Archive for Research in Archetypal Symbolism

Archive for Research in Archetypal Symbolism (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) – (View AfD)

Article appears to fail WP:NOTABILITY, WP:WEB. Hu12 17:20, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

  • Keep. Well written. —Preceding unsigned comment added by M.V.E.i. (talk • contribs) 18:45, August 29, 2007 (UTC)
  • Weak Delete - I will just barely say Delete. First of all as a question of notability this is a collection of 17,000 phtographs. I know perhaps it is not the largest, but nonetheless it is a very impressive collection. Okay now the fact is that there is no sources that have been found for this article so it can be verified. If someone can provide some Reliable sources I will change my !vote. --Tλε Rαnδom Eδιτor (tαlk) 19:08, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Weak Delete This collection is connected with the work of Carl Jung. I find online references to it, but not much of significance. The page links to very little in Wikipedia - not quite notable. MarkBul 20:06, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep. Plenty of reliable sources establish notability (Google Books finds references in 65 books, many of which seem to discuss the subject in detail). Jakew 22:14, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
"A significant event was the establishment of the Archive for Research in Archetypal Symbolism (ARAS), a large collection of pictures and commentary on their ..." Analytical Psychology: Contemporary Perspectives in Jungian Analysis By Joseph Cambray, Linda Carter I SBN 1583919996 At least one clear one-- Apparently important in its field. DGG (talk) 00:31, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
And here's another: "Two very practical links to the development of analytical psychology emerged from these annual gatherings. First, Olga Froebe-Kapteyn was encouraged by Jung to develop an archive of pictures portraying different archetypal symbols. She amassed a great number of pctures which eventually became the foundation for the Archive for Research in Archetypal Symbolism (ARAS), which is now housed in several American Jung Institutes, as well as in Zurich and at the Warburg Institute at the University of London. The pictures and the commentary are valuable resources for analysts and academicians interested in art history, culture, and symbolism." -- The Jungians: A Comparative and Historical Perspective, Thomas B Kirsch, ISBN 0415158613. Jakew 11:11, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep WP:WEB guidelines do not necessarily apply simply because the org in question has a website. ARAS also has physical repositories in New York, Los Angeles, Chicago and San Francisco. The Encyclopedia of Archetypal Symbolism, developed from ARAS resources, is reviewed by Publisher's Weekly as "an astonishing book, an important publishing event and a significant sourcebook of body wisdom."[22]. Patricia Sohl, the curator, was Visiting Lecturer in Health Policy and Ethics at the Harvard School of Public Health for 13 years and is now on staff at the Stanford Center for Biomedical Ethics.[23] These seem to indicate a level of professionalism and a high standard of scholarship. Also, to answer Tλε Rαnδom Eδιτor (above) the collection is not just photographs but also written material.--Bookgrrl holler/lookee here 01:03, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
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The result was Speedy Keep, nominator fucked up. New England Review Me!/Go Red Sox! 19:21, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Rachael MacFarlane

Rachael MacFarlane (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) – (View AfD)

Not sure she is notable enough for inclusion. Most of her roles seem to be small parts. New England Review Me!/Go Red Sox! 17:15, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

  • Speedy Keep. Major regular role/member of main cast as daughter Hayley on primetime network TV show American Dad!. Smashville 19:15, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
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The result was speedy delete as no assertion of notability made, and appears to be spam for something which can't be verified anyway. ···日本穣? · Talk to Nihonjoe 23:51, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Tsuin Tsuuro

Tsuin Tsuuro (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) – (View AfD)

This article is about a non-existent, likely made-up manga series. If it already began, why is there no publisher — or is this an unverifiable future event? If it first debuted (or will debut) in Japan, why is there no Japanese script for the name? Do mangaka usually have American names? What's with the unpolished look of Image:Character head.jpg, supposedly by the illustrator of the manga?

Searching for "tsuin tsuuro" on Google brings up only Wikipedia and material copied from it; likewise, the search terms "つうろ" and "通路" (both tsūro) bring up nothing related, either, and I wouldn't even know what to use for "tsuin" — "ついん"? "ツイン"? "ツイン通路", a likely name, brings up some pages on trains and hotels, but nothing related to the article's subject.

There are no sources to back up the article in question, and it has the smell of vanity on it. —TangentCube, Dialogues 17:15, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

In addition, I am also nominating Tsuin Tsuuro minor characters (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) for deletion, as it is directly related to the main article, and should be deleted or kept along with it. —TangentCube, Dialogues 17:22, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

  • Note: This debate has been included in the list of Anime and manga-related deletions. ——TangentCube, Dialogues 17:26, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete both - this looks like someone trying to make their non-notable pet project look good by using impressive descriptions; neither of the "mangakai" turn up any results through Google. Even if it does exist, there's no indication that it's notable - no publisher name, no indication of who it's released through, etc. Tony Fox (arf!) 20:14, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete as unverifiable. There is absolutely no evidence that the subject is notable, much less that it actually exists. --Farix (Talk) 20:28, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
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The result was DELETE, not much left after spam, non notable. Rlevse 11:38, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Furqan center

Furqan center (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) – (View AfD)

Spam. Non-notable group. New England Review Me!/Go Red Sox! 17:12, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

  • Comment Sure reads like an advert, but in this case, I haven't a clue as to how to go about determining notability. I mean, is it a religious center or, as it appears to me, more of a business? In any case, the only source I can find is the group's own website, which is mostly in Arabic, even at the English link. And no, I don't read Arabic.
    • Delete Well, after digging a little more, I've convinced myself that notability is not established, certainly not outside Saudi Arabia. Also, if the advertising bits of the article were removed, little of value would remain, which makes it a borderline speedy candidate. —Travistalk 19:16, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Weak delete I edited the article to remove advertising and for NPOV and formatting. There isn't much left. If an Arabic speaker can dig up some proper references, it might be worth keeping and expanding. (The article is better, but I've certainly made a mess of this AfD discussion. Sorry about that.) —Travistalk 19:40, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete as it stands, but give it the full five days to run & don't snowball - it might be that an Arabic speaker will have more luck finding WP:RSs for this — iridescent (talk to me!) 19:27, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
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The result was Delete. Carlossuarez46 00:17, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Black Dragon Association

Black Dragon Association (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) – (View AfD)

I personally don't think this association is notable. There are other associations with this name, but I couldn't locate this particular one on google [24]. A number of claims in the article are... unsupported, so to say. Tizio 17:09, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

  • Delete. No assertion of notability. --John 17:08, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete possible hoax. The article doesn't even clearly define what the subject is or does. VanTucky (talk) 17:58, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete - Hoax, probably. TheInfinityZero 22:32, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Not To Delete I am 100% sure that this Group exists. Give more time & tell what to put to prove it. There are many ways to prove it. One can't find this on the internet, this is because it is from Myanmar & it just started to appear. — Digimon9 (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
  • Not To Delete - This particular group actually exists and is growing in popularity at Myanmar. It deserves not to be deleted and known to all TheOne 22:32, 29 August 2007 (ADB)
  • Not To DeleteI don't think this page is a joke. I have heard of BDA and I've actually seen these guys out in the streets, driving around with their signal lights on. The problem of this page is that it is not phrased properly. Probably the user wrote this article has a bad english background. Give him time. I'm sure he/she can pull it off. — Wdstanley (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
  • Delete real or not there is no notability --Childzy ¤ Talk 14:05, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete students' joke/hoax, no sources that indicate existence. Melsaran (talk) 10:46, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete, fails WP:ORG. Google did not help. Carlosguitar 19:49, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
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The result was Merged to Green Party candidates, 2007 Ontario provincial election. utcursch | talk 08:22, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Elaine Kennedy

Elaine Kennedy (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) – (View AfD)

Non-notable activist, who has so far failed in her election attempts in Ontario. Sources claim her as recipient of a medal, but it turns out there's more than 20,000 others who got it as well. Just doesn't quite clear the bar of notability. (If she wins her election, she will, and we can reconsider this issue at that time.) Realkyhick 17:00, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

Update: Move to merge into Green Party candidates, 2007 Ontario provincial election and close discussion. Prior convention does appear to dictate listing in an article covering all candidates by a party in an election cycle unless they are notable for other reasons, such as prior office-holding. (Didn't know about this convention when I nominated to delete.) Realkyhick 04:49, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete, NN local activist-politician, fails WP:BIO. --Dhartung | Talk 17:59, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

I honestly don't understand Realkhick's continued efforts to have this article deleted. In response to his comments above, this is the first time Elaine Kennedy has run in an election, so to say she has failed in her election attempts is inaccurate. I agree that Ms. Kennedy is not notable to Realkyhick in Kentucky, but she is without a doubt notable to the 98,900 residents of her district in Ontario and the provided references already establish that. How does the number of people who have received an award deminish its notability? The Queen Elizabeth II Golden Jubilee Medal is a well known award (in Canada) for people who have "made a significant contribution to their fellow citizens, their community or to Canada." Please see my other notes on the article's talk page before deleting. I am actively tring to find other online sources for references - the bulk of the information for this article was taken from non-online sources at the local library. As media coverage increases with the lead-up to the election in October, I will be able to improve this article and its references. SDSGResident 19:32, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

    • Comment: If this is her first run for office, that is even more reason why she is not notable by Wikipedia standards. If she had run multiple times and lost, she might be notable just for all the attention she got in the process. But that is not the case here. Sorry for the math error, but you actually hurt your case by pointing that out. Realkyhick 07:04, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete the world is full of such people - interest in a cause, join a committee, run for office. A paragraph in a local rag announcing candidacy does not make a person notable. Even winning an election does not guarantee notability per WP:BIO, so announcing does not contribute at all. And Wikipedia is not a crystal ball - future media coverage is not relevant here. MarkBul 20:15, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep seems notable to me.--Zingostar 20:20, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete per nom & MarkBul. Carlossuarez46 21:20, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Note: This debate has been included in the list of Ontario-related deletions. -- John Vandenberg 03:37, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Per prior discussions, candidates for elected provincial or federal office in Canada are always entitled at minimum to inclusion in a merged list. Merge to Green Party candidates, 2007 Ontario provincial election. Bearcat 03:48, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
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The result was delete. CitiCat ♫ 02:45, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Backwards Man

Backwards Man (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) – (View AfD)

It's just one scene of a movie. Not worthy of its own article. DodgerOfZion 16:52, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

I personally believe Backwards Man is notable enough to have his own article. Most Internet memes atleast get a mention in the article they pertain to, and they haven't appeared in a theatrically-released film. At the very least, the Backwards Man article deserves a merge with Freddy Got Fingered with its own section. EctoplasmOnToast 17:08, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
Other than a few references to the movie here and there, I don't see how it's notable at all. It's not a meme, just a particular part of a controversial movie. DodgerOfZion
  • By all means delete; not even barely notable on its own. If some fan so desires, he will merge some of it in the main article. --Goochelaar 17:42, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
  • eleteD. .mlif eht fo txetnoc eht ni neve elbaton yleraB .TCIF:PW sliaF --Dhartung | Talk 18:02, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
I am now... It's a pity. DodgerOfZion
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The result was delete. Cool Hand Luke 03:29, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Needahotel.com

Needahotel.com (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) – (View AfD)

Queried speedy delete for spamming Anthony Appleyard 16:34, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

  • Delete, spam. Realkyhick 17:02, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete. No independent refs. Created by an spa. Assume spam. Alexa ain't impressed either. -- RHaworth 22:28, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete as spam. Created by SPA with COI. Dbromage [Talk] 04:17, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Speedy delete as blatant advertising. ornis (t) 10:40, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
  • comment How is this page SPAM or advertising? --Darragh.Flynn 10:46, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete - a good alexa ranking would have swung it for me, but without it this is just another ad for a non-notable company. -- Roleplayer 00:30, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
  • comment Alexa is a terrible basis on which to judge a websites ranking. I presume you are familier with the term SPYWARE. Alexa base their statistics on a small pool of web users that have been "infected" with the Alexa toolbar. In case anyone is interested, altough I feel I am fighting a loosing battle here, I have put some acurate statistics online for your inspection. Please see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Analytics_www.needahotel.com_20070101-20070903.pdf for stats from Google Analytics.--Darragh.Flynn 09:07, 3 September 2007 (UTC) Thanks.
    The alexa ranking is not the only criteria on which I am making my decision, I just didn't say that because it's been said before. -- Roleplayer 11:34, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment The article has been improved and is no longer written as an advertisement/spam. The website is claimed (on the article) to have received certain awards; however, they are currently unsourced, so notability is still an issue. I've done some research, and as I can gather, Needahotel.com has been given the "Best Travel Internet Booking System" award, a Northern Ireland Travel award (from gotobelfast.com — official travel guide of Belfast), a Ryan Academy Award (not sure if this one is notable) and recognized as the Best Hotel Booking Engine in 2004 by Irish Travel Trade. I have no opinion about the other awards listed on the article, but if they are all accurate, this article can reasonably meet Wikipedia:Notability (web). PeaceNT 11:18, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Nuke --SkyWalker 11:23, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
    • Could you please provide your argument? Best, PeaceNT 11:26, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
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The result was redirect. Mackensen (talk) 21:43, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Lhasa poo

AfDs for this article:
    Lhasa poo (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) – (View AfD)

    Contested prod. User claimed that there were over 800 Google news hits of reliable sources for the article, but provided none as a citation. Articles should never be kept simply because they passed a Google test. While poodle hybrids as a type are very notable, this breed specifically is not, failing the test of "significant coverage" as defined in WP:N. As a side note: the breed is probably recognized by the American Canine Hybrid Association. I find that, considering the sole qualification for recognition is a $5 fee, this is not a reliable source affirming notability. Propose that the article is deleted and redirected to poodle hybrids. VanTucky (talk) 15:46, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

    • Delete and redirect to poodle hybrids. Not notable on its own. Realkyhick 17:03, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Redirect to poodle hybrids, but don't delete to maintain history. This site does state that "This hybrid cross is recognized by the American Canine Hybrid Club," but that's really the only site I could find that isn't there for the sole purpose of advertising dogs or breeders. 2 of the sites in Google's top 10 on "Lhasa Poo" were domain holders or disabled. Doesn't really seem to be notable, as notability requires significant coverage in reliable sources, implying more detail, more reliability, and more sources period. Hersfold (t/a/c) 18:30, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Redirect - Per Hersfold's reasoning. --Tλε Rαnδom Eδιτor (tαlk) 19:16, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Delete or redirect as per previous comments. Jerazol 21:12, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Redirect to poodle hybrid. --Pharaoh Hound (talk) (The Game) 22:26, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Merge. Close call. Having looked at the sources I think the breed is notable, but not so notable that it needs its own article. If someone were able to point to more significant coverage, I'd move to keep. --TheOtherBob 13:16, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
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    The result was delete without prejudice. Cool Hand Luke 03:31, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

    [edit] Jackson Williams

    Jackson Williams (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) – (View AfD)

    Baseball player who is playing in the minors, which does not constitute notability per WP:Baseball's limits or WP:BIO's. Has not played in the majors. Delete, without prejudice of recreation when/if he plays at a professional level. AllynJ (talk | contribs) 15:45, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

    Technicality: has only played for his college, but regardless, isn't a professional level. Same outcome & reasoning.

    AllynJ (talk | contribs) 15:47, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

    • Note: This debate has been included in the list of baseball-related deletions. —Truest blue 16:07, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
    • Delete, non notable athlete. Corvus cornix 18:37, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Delete I'm usualy for keeping everyone, but this guy was just recently drafted and has started playing in the rookie leagues.. A bit too early I think for him. Spanneraol 20:40, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Delete sorry rookie leagues are going too far, clearly not fully proffesional Jaranda wat's sup 23:12, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Keep, meets WP:BIO standard of having played in a fully professional league. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kinston eagle (talk • contribs) 00:54, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Rookie Leagues aren't really fully proffesional Jaranda wat's sup 00:57, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
      • Agreed. This is college baseball; if he does make it to the minors that's another story, but he hasn't yet. (And as I said, without prejudice of recreation... etc.) AllynJ (talk | contribs) 07:43, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Delete per WP:BASEBALL --Truest blue 16:07, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
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    The result was no consensus, split down the middle with cogent arguments made by nominator and discussion participants. KrakatoaKatie 18:41, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

    [edit] Shih-poo

    Shih-poo (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) – (View AfD)

    While poodle hybrids in general as a type are very notable, this breed in specific has recieved no significant coverage as defined under WP:N in reliable, published sources that would suggest it is notable. Delete and redirect to the aforementioned article. As a side note: the breed is most likely recognized by the American Canine Hybrid Association. As the sole requirement of breed recognition is a $5 fee, this patently fails the test of reliability. The ACHA is a degree mill for dogs. VanTucky (talk) 15:33, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

    • Keep: Term seems obviously notable; I've added sources. As an outsider, I get the impression that there are strange kennel/breeder politics regarding official breeds and the recognition of hybrids, e.g. The Modern Kennel Conundrum, so I also have some WP:NPOV concerns about the effort to delete dog hybrids (Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Dogs#WP:PROD_nominations). (Is there a more specific tag than WP:NPOV that covers this?) Billgordon1099 19:06, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Comment Unfortunately not a single source you added significantly covers the breed alone. These sources are decidedly trivial, comprised of tiny mentions among many other topics. I would also like to indicate that this would seem to be a WP:POINT issue with user Billgordon, as every single contest to a related prod he has made so far included the edit summary "No to deletionism". VanTucky (talk) 19:49, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Keep. Nor, of course, are there any sources devoted solely to the Brown-chested Martin; rather, it's covered in a book about swallows. This breed of dog appears to have received significant coverage in reliable, independent sources -- the mentions therein are more than trivial, though less than exclusive, as WP:RS requires. To address the WP:POINT issue, remember to assume good faith; people who consistently disagree with you aren't thereby making a WP:Point. (I feel like I've made this argument before.) --TheOtherBob 13:23, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
    • Comment WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS is not a valid argument to keep this article. The mentions are absolutely trivial, as they go into no significant detail on the subject. A cursory mention of the dog is not significant coverage. When editors show a long pattern of action that is said by them to be based not on the merits of the situation but on a larger principle (inclusionism/deletionism), then it clearly violates WP:POINT. Assuming good faith does not mean ignoring strong evidence of a pattern of behavior. VanTucky (talk) 15:32, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
    • Oh, I'm nowhere near WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS -- your snap response there just misreads the argument. I'm saying that we don't -- and never have -- asked that reliable sources devote themselves solely to one subject in order to be non-trivial. (And gave an example of the way in which we typically apply that.) Indeed, it's right there in WP:RS -- the source must devote significant, but not necessarily exclusive, attention to the subject. The sources cited are far from trivial - they devote several pages to discussing the breed. As to the AGF concept - assume good faith means that you assume that someone with whom you disagree lacks ulterior motives. Here you jumped right to "he has an ulterior motive, so I don't have to assume good faith." Since he has an ulterior motive, you can then assume that his arguments against you, his searching for citations, etc. are meant to disrupt the encyclopedia to make a WP:Point rather than a good-faith belief in his position. (You do understand that accusing someone of violating WP:Point means that you are accusing them of disrupting the encyclopedia, right? If not, then you shouldn't be slinging that around.) But that's (respectfully) nonsense. Disagreeing with you is not a WP:Point. Finding citations for articles you think should be deleted doesn't disrupt the encyclopedia. It's a meritless accusation, and a pretty rude one, and I think you should withdraw it - but I'll leave that to you. --TheOtherBob 16:27, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
    • Let's break this down. Those not in favor of keep are saying that this is better dealt with in the general poodle hybrid article, because this variation is not notable enough on is own to merit an article. Coincidentally, not a single source focuses on the Shih-poo, and only mentions it in relation to poodle hybrids as a whole. Thus, none of these sources prove that the variation is notable. Since you find examples to compare helpful, take a look at Maltepoo. At first glance these two articles look about the same. But the Maltepoo article has a reference that is very significantly dealing with the hybrid, thus proving that Maltepoos are specifically notable. None of the references in the present article do so, only confirming that Shih-poos are worth listing when speaking of poodle hybrids. So the encyclopedia article should, in accordance with the source material, speak of Shih-poos in the context of a larger encyclopedic discussion of poodle hybrids. VanTucky (talk) 19:24, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
    • Yes, I do find reference to rules helpful, particularly use of it in precedent. You're proposing a new rule unseen on Wikipedia before: that if a subject has a source devoted entirely to it, then the subject gets its own article, but if the subject only has a section of a larger work devoted to it then the subject will be merged into a larger Wikipedia article. (Or at least that's what I understand you to be saying - what you said earlier was actually that you supported deletion and re-direction rather than a merge. But based on your comment above you may have intended to suggest a merge instead.) That new rule would directly contradict both how we treat other subjects, and the explicit language of WP:RS. Since you're proposing a new rule, what you need to explain is how we would then treat examples like the Brown-chested Martin above -- the proper way to treat it is the way we treat it now: in a separate article. Nonetheless, I could support a merge -- as I have with other "poo dogs" that have less adequate sourcing. I think there's enough sourcing here for an independent article, but it's closer than other hybrids/breeds so a merge could make sense if done correctly. --TheOtherBob 20:48, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
    What vital content, that isn't basically the same as all other poodle hybrid stubs, couldn't be merged with the general article? I don't really see any, it's like Zetawoof says below. The "distinguishing characteristics" that are in this article are nearly exactly the same as all other poodle hybrid articles. There is a general notice that they are supposedly quasi-hypoallergneic or at least non-shedding. There is a bunch of uncited nonsense about temperament (I seriously doubt any poodle reference compares their temperament to a Shih-tzu) and the basic definition of what a poodle hybrid is. VanTucky (talk) 15:29, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
    • Redirect To poodle hybrid. Too obscure to merit its own article, and can be adequately covered in poodle hybrid. --Pharaoh Hound (talk) (The Game) 22:23, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Delete. Like many articles on minor canine crossbreeds, this article explains what the cross is (i.e, a poodle/shih tzu cross), but fails to explain how it distinguishes itself from any other possible pairing of breeds. Simply explaining that a dog of this breed "will take characteristics from both of its parents" and characterizing the breed as having a "widely varying appearance" doesn't help matters much. It's worth noting that, although this article has a few references, most of them appear to simply be used as references for the name itself, not any characteristics or further information! Zetawoof(ζ) 16:33, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
    • Note: This debate has been included in the list of Organisms-related deletions. -- John Vandenberg 03:35, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
    • Keep Keep based on the current sourcing in place. • Lawrence Cohen 16:58, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
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    The result wasWithdrawn by nominator while I still have concerns about notability, the sourcing is still incidental accounts in relation to John Howard the recent editing of the article by Sarah and Lester has removed the serious issues of it being a John Howard attack page and POV fork. Gnangarra 00:33, 2 September 2007 (UTC)


    [edit] Lyall Howard

    Lyall Howard (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) – (View AfD)

    Lyall Howard the article says He is notable for being the father of current Australian Prime Minister, John Howard., notability isn't inherited. Additionally WP:BIO#Criteria for notability of people has 6 criteria for people, Lyall doesn't meet any of them. Lyall's service records shows no decorations or mentions in dispatches only that he was gased in france, as was tens of thousands of other soldiers he was discharged as a private so theres no rank to establish notability. Owner of a service station isnt notable, only the PNG plantation issue gets close, but that's WP:BLP1E and the use of dummies/proxies wasn't confined to just Lyall, which then has undue weight issues in that 2 of the 4 properties were purchased by Lyall's father Walter yet this article focus is on Lyall but includes Walter's property in every statement. Gnangarra 15:09, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

    Reply: I wish to point out that someone recently changed the wording of the intro which made the subject sound less notable than previous versions. I will change the intro to more accurately refect his life.Lester2 15:20, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
    resp I note Lester has add more information(inc. sourcing) and reworded the lead, the issue still remaiins the sourcing is about John Howard not Lyall the additional content is about Walter not Lyall. The issues of notability, undue weight have yet to be addressed. Gnangarra 01:14, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Merge to the article about his notable son? Corpx 15:34, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Delete Only one of the articles is really about this person; the others mention him in the context of discussing the PM's history. We can add any useful information to an appropriate section at John Howard article. -FisherQueen (Talk) 15:41, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Speedy Del Per Gnang. Twenty Years 15:46, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    comment speedy isnt appropriate based on my nomination because WP:CSD states Non-notable subjects with their importance asserted: Articles that have obviously non-notable subjects are still not eligible for speedy deletion unless the article "does not assert the importance or significance of its subject". If the article gives a claim that might be construed as making the subject notable, it should be taken to a wider forum. emphasis added. A claim for notability is clearly stated in the article and included in the nomination Gnangarra 15:52, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Keep The practice of dummying in PNG is notable, and in Lyall Howard we have a link between this colourful episode in Australian imperialism and Lyall's notable son. --Pete 17:14, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Delete The article is a badly written attack piece on a non notable person, centered around an incident wikipedia has yet to even find notable. If people agree it is notable then a sub section should be created at History of Papua New Guinea. Prester John -(Talk to the Hand) 17:48, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Delete: The subject is not notable however the events in PNG may be notable. It is probably worth deleting the current article and exploring an article of "dummying in PNG" (which in itself is probably poorly attested) rather than hiding it in an article about a low notability person. Shot info 23:08, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Keep (?): A while back i would have sympathised with the argument that this Lyall Howard material should be merged into the John Howard article. However, that piece is a bit of a war zone, and to some extent the peace is being kept by moving some material out of it into appropriate separate entries. i do not think it is helping Wikipedia if we argue on one page that contentious material is better in a separate entry, and then elsewhere say that that separate entry's is not notable and should be deleted. Another alternative might be to merge this to the history of PNG. For the moment, though, i favour keeping, and revisiting this whole debate one day in either a few months or a few years when John Howard is no longer PM and a longer-term view can be taken of all this. We should take advantage of the dynamic nature of WP to keep material like this for periods, recognising that it will perhaps not be notable for all time. hamiltonstone 00:35, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
    notability at WP is permanent once acquired. This is an encyclopedia, not a transient news publicationDGG (talk) 00:36, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
    Creating a WP:POVFORK because another article is subject to an edit war isnt normally the way the community establishes notability. Gnangarra 01:22, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Delete the notability is so marginal generally and the crime relatively minor, so I see no basis for keeping on either account. BLP is otherwise satisfied by the documentation. DGG (talk) 00:36, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Regretfully, delete. Regretfully, because the accusations themselves are probably notable for John Howard; also, this is a model article about a minor individual in terms of referencing. All the references, however, are to articles that specify notability only with reference to John Howard, and I can't see that Lyall is in himself notable. Hornplease 01:23, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
    Much like Josiah Franklin, hmm? Let's pull that flag down andsee who stands up. --Pete 03:39, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
    Skyring/Pete, instead of just voicing WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS your welcome to nominate Josiah Franklin article, like this it doesnt assert notability. Though I'd expect given your above comment most people would say its a bad faith WP:POINT nomination and it'd get speedy closed. Gnangarra 04:49, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
    I looked at it, intending to see what sort of arguments would be mustered in support, but there are [probably enough mentions of JF in biographies of his famous son to constitute enough secondary sources. Perhaps LH is included in biographies of his famous son? Don't have time to look at this right now, about to hit the road for a twelve hour shift. --Pete 04:58, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
    • KeepThe material needs to be edited to remove any disparaging undertones and possibly developed into a completely different article but I'd like to keep it. I think this material is a very important part of the JH story which is obviously not appropriate for the main bio and I think it would be a shame to lose it. Sarah 05:42, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Keep per Sarah. It would wrong to merge all of this into the JH article. While it does need some minor tweaking to move away from being an underhand attack piece, I think that fathers of notable sons are worth knowing a bit more about, and this is too interesting to be lost for the sake of a hardline interpretation of the notability guideline. —Moondyne 09:01, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Keep There was coverage of his dealings in PNG in reliable sources. Notable enough. Recurring dreams 11:50, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Keep There appear to be enough reliable and independent sources to meet notability requirements. Gillyweed 11:53, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
    comment In the article sources 4 and 5 are the same piece written by David Marr for fairfax, at best its a soap box which alleges inappropriate behaviour by John Howard based on actions by his father before JH birth that were legal. Reference 2 is about John Howards(Aust Government) defence policy. reference 3 is about a Senate inquiry into JH(Aust Government) industrial relations policy. reference 6 is a book about JH and G.W.Bush and the alliance between US and Australia. Only reference 1 is actually about Lyall but its the same documents retained for 376,000 or so Australian service personal from WWI, as I said in the nomination there nothing in his records that asserts any notability, no decorations, no rank etc. When you look at WP:N A topic is presumed to be notable if it has received significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject. there's no significant coverage of the subject only incidental coverage in article about his son. Gnangarra 13:02, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
    I've found plenty of articles on Factiva and tomorrow I'll check the Australia/New Zealand Reference Centre but I think all of the information can be sourced to other references. The article is definitely verifiable by reliable sources. Sarah 14:22, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Keep We're still working on the article and it is still expanding. He's notable for 3 reasons: 1: The New Guinea plantations coupled with a high-level government inquiry into the matter with historical records and transcripts of those accounts 2: The extraordinary meeting on the battlefields of World War I, and 3: He's the father of the Australian Prime Minister. Of the references supplied, all have accounts of Lyall Howard, and more than one are entirely about him. Please let this article grow! Lester2 15:05, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
    comment Point 1 -- the event may warrant an article, but Lyall wasnt the only person involved rough calculation he had 2.5% of the land granted(inc Walters grant). 2. refers to a 4 word entry in a dairy thats not in the public domain. 3. Being someones father isnt notable, if that person is notable then his father gets included there. Gnangarra 02:45, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Delete per nom. The only reason any of these stories were published in the first place is becuase he was the Prime Minister's father. Otherwise, the man would be entirely non-notable. It seems to me that the only purpose of the article is to disparage the Prime Minister using information that could not be kept in the article on him. It is a blatant POV fork and has no place in Wikipedia. Those editors who seem so committed to having this information in Wikipedia should look at writing an article on the topic of plantations in the colonial period in PNG. -- Mattinbgn\ talk 20:51, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
      It's an article spinoff, not a POV fork. Just because content is moved from one large article and used to create another article, doesn't make it a POV fork. I can't speak for anyone else but I don't find Lyall's story notable in the context of the plantations or PNG and I have no interest in writing about PNG plantations. I find the whole Lyall story interesting in the context of John Howard. JH has spoken in some depth about his father numerous times and I think this is an important part of the JH story which cannot and should not be in the main bio. As for the BIO guideline, in my opinion, the question is has Lyall Howard been the subject of non-trivial coverage by reliable sources and the answer is yes. And if that isn't convincing, then I would argue to keep it purely on the basis of Moondyne's position that this "is too interesting to be lost for the sake of a hardline interpretation of the notability guideline". The other issues raised here, like undue weight and such, are editorial issues, not reasons for outright deletion. Deleting an article which offers an interesting and *completely verifiable by reliable sources* background to our second longest serving PM simply because it falls between the cracks of typical notability criteria is like cutting off our noses. Sarah 01:26, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
    It really can't be classed as an article spinoff as the material was never suitable for the John Howard article to be spun off from. There was a disagreement between editors about the inclusion of material and the end result was a new article was created. Surely, that is a POV fork. With a spin out a summary version would normally be included in the main article, which surely wouldn't be suitable here. I agree the topic is interesting but not because of who was involved but because of what happened. The focus of this article seems to be on Lyall Howard, an otherwise non-notable person when I see the focus should be on the activities (dummying) which took place of which Lyall Howard was only one of many involved. The article as it stands is non-encyclopedic trivia about a non-notable individual designed to justify the inclusion of material that wasn't suitable for the John Howard article. -- Mattinbgn\ talk 02:18, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Delete per Gnangarra and Mattinbgn. The article has improved since I first read over it, but I still err on the side of the subject not being sufficiently or independently notable.--cj | talk 02:52, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
    Article updated. The Lyall Howard article has had significant work on it since the above comments were made. I hope the Wikipedians who have already commented on it have time to reread it for a second opinion. The additions considerably affect the notability of the subject. On 2006, author Les Carlyon published the book The Great War, which signnificantly refers to Lyall Howard's war diary, not because he is the PM's father, but because it provides a rare historical account documenting it from a soldier's manuscript. The historical photograph shows Lyall Howard's battalion leaving Melnourne in 1916. Lester2 19:56, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
    • Keep per Sarah. The article contains information about verifiable, significant, relevant events pertaining to the immediate family of a notable living person. The war service, petrol station ownership and other aspects of Lyall's life inform the background of one of Australia's most enduring political figures, and serve as a genuinely interesting historical thread in the Howard family tapestry that ought not be lost --Bren 06:28, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Keep As a non-Australian who'd be hard pressed to name any Australians other than Shane Warne and Harold Bishop, I came away from this article feeling like I'd learned something. Whatever the reasons for the man being famous, he does receive press coverage in his own right, and I can't see a problem with this article at all. I've never held with people who say WP:USEFUL is an invalid keep reason; as long as it's properly sourced, in my opinion WP:USEFUL is the Wikimedia Foundation's primary purpose — iridescent (talk to me!) 19:18, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
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    The result was Delete. Carlossuarez46 05:10, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

    [edit] Albert Dunbar Wedemeyer

    Albert Dunbar Wedemeyer (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) – (View AfD)

    Fails WP:BIO and the guidelines of the Wikiproject military history. His father is notable, but notability is not inherited. Prod removed without addressing the problems. Fram 14:32, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

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    The result was keep. Cool Hand Luke 03:35, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

    [edit] What Witches Do

    What Witches Do (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) – (View AfD)

    Fails WP:NB --EAEB 14:28, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

    • Weak delete. It does seem to have a real publisher and a fair number of google hits, but 661,468 Amazon sales ranking doesn't help support notability, and the only review I could find- at least, I think it's a review- is in Hebrew. -FisherQueen (Talk) 15:48, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Keep - as Wiccan books go, this is really one of the more historically notable ones. However, due to the publication date, most reviews will have been in print and are unlikely to be found on the web. This AfD should be posted to the appropriate projects and time should be given for older Wiccans with print archives from the period to search for reviews. Essittam 16:52, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Strong Keep - I agree with Essittam above. - Debeo Morium: to be morally bound (Talk | Contribs) 17:54, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Keep, the references give some strong support for the notability and meets the requirements for WP:NB. The Hebrew site found is a review, I've got a site translator on my browser. Hersfold (t/a/c) 18:41, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Keep per Essittam. IPSOS (talk) 23:48, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    • merge I am an ex-wiccan and do know of this book but this article is stub like with very little to it anyway. Why not just merge/make a section in Stewart Farrar the author, who has his own article?Merkinsmum 00:43, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Keep or merge. This is a fairly important work in the history of neo-paganism as a movement. The Amazon ranking may be slightly misleading, since my understanding is that this particular version is out of print, but was republished with additional material under a new title. - Smerdis of Tlön 13:46, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Keep - notability is confirmed. -- Roleplayer 00:31, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
    • Strong Keep. There are other pagan-related books slated for deletion via PROD at the moment which I would not argue with (by Gerina Dunwich and Silver Ravenwolf.) But Farrar's book was written a generation ago when such texts were as rare as hen's teeth, unlike the modern confetti of 'Wiccan' texts. It's a big fish in a small pool which is why there may be few mainstream references (sorry, no pun intended...). But it definitely deserves to stay. Kim Dent-Brown (Talk to me) 12:47, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
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    The result was Keep, of typically poor quality for product articles, but poor quality is not a deletion criterion. Carlossuarez46 05:12, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

    [edit] Nokia DX200

    Nokia DX200 (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) – (View AfD)

    Prod contested by User:Petri Krohn, so starting an AfD. This article contains no claim of notability for the product. It is completely unreferenced. WP is not a catalog of products. While there are truly notable products (like the Corvette, or the Macintosh), this isn't one of them. Mikeblas 14:05, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

    • Note: This debate has been included in the list of Technology-related deletions. -- → AA (talk) — 14:33, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Speedy Keep It is a specialised subject and as such information is not readily available since it's a proprietary product. It is used in telephone exchanges and there are a handful if different types running the world's telephone systems. Other's include System X (telephony), System Y, DMS-100. Google Books and Google Scholar have ample information to establish notability. However, I agree with the nom that this (and the other articles I've linked) are in dire need of sourcing. → AA (talk) — 14:52, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Speedy Keep - In fact the DX200 may be more notable than the Corvette, or the Apple Macintosh. It is used by a far larger number of people, and produced more revenue for its maker. Anyway, I have rewritten the article with references and claims of notability. -- Petri Krohn 12:54, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
      • Comment. The vast majority of people who use this product don't know they're using it. More relevant to this discussion, most people who aren't using this product don't know they're not using it, either; it doesn't have features notable to anybody outside the industry, and the end user isn't even aware of its presence. As such, I think fancruft applies. -- Mikeblas 21:03, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
    • Speedy Keep - per above. Greswik 15:09, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
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    The result was delete. discounting the WP:SPA Jaranda wat's sup Sports! 21:21, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

    [edit] Ben Shields

    Ben Shields (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) – (View AfD)

    Doesn't meet WP:BIO; only claim to fame is being the youngest councilor in a particular area which I think falls short of meriting an encyclopedia entry. Shell babelfish 13:53, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

    • Delete local politician and I do not think people of such small scope of notability should be listed here Corpx 15:33, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    • KEEP Is he not the youngest councillor in Australian History?- yes he is! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.101.53.116 (talk) 01:22, August 30, 2007 (UTC)
    • Keep Ben Shields is the youngest elected politican in Australian Political History. Surly this warrents an item on Wiki? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jez1985 (talk • contribs) 01:25, August 30, 2007 (UTC)
    • Delete nn politician no sources of notability. Carlossuarez46 01:55, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Delete Per nom. -- Mufka (u) (t) (c) 12:38, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Delete fails WP:BIO Sasha Callahan 05:46, 31 August 2007 (UTC
    • Keep seems notable and fine to me--Zingostar 20:23, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
    • Comment the AfD tag was removed from the page by vandals. I've restored it, but would somebody more familiar with AfDs than myself let me know whether the fact that the tage was missing from the page for four days has any effect on the AfD? Also, I'm going with a Weak keep on this one: if he's truly the youngest municipal councillor in Australian history, I think that clears WP:BIO, although I'd expect more media coverage than is currently cited on the page. Sarcasticidealist 22:20, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
    • Keep - This guy is not just the youngest municipal councillor - he is the youngest elected politician in australian history. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.101.62.208 (talk) 05:44, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
    • Keep - though some sources are needed. cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 06:00, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
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    The result was Delete. Xoloz 13:29, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

    [edit] 2007 SCSSRU Premier Division Grand Final

    2007 SCSSRU Premier Division Grand Final (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs)

    This is an article on a non-notable subject. Albatross2147 13:37, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

    • Neutral comment. Per WP:JNN, "simply stating that the subject of an article is not notable does not provide reasoning as to why the subject may not be notable". Secondary sources cited seem to suggest notability. Dbromage [Talk] 00:18, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Neutral comment. Please explain how this page is WP:NN--RockerballAustralia 07:34, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
      • Self evidently non-notable I would have thought. It's a provincial junior match in an minor competition between two schools. The sport played is relatively minor compared to say Rugby League in the SC area. The game is hardly of an historic nature with no notable players. It is unlikely to be written about in 10 years time even in a book covering only the great games of the SCSSRU. It is a vanity article of interest only to the players, some of their parents etc.. At best it should be mentioned in a section covering the 2007 season in an article on the SCSSRU. The quoted secondary sources would be par for the course in a provincial area. The newspaper copy and photos were probably supplied by the school or a parent - I get the same sort of coverage or better in the local meeja using the same methods (ie supply copy and digital photos) for the activities my kids are involved in (even making the front page of the Daily Tele once). It's a no brainer these days. If this article stays we are going to see vanity articles for thousands of Little League baseball games. I am not a deletionista by the way and would not argue that an article on the SCSSRU should be deleted. Albatross2147 23:12, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
        • You make some interesting points. The SCSSRU Premier Competition is considered to be a tough competition by the QRU. As for your comment about Rugby Union being relatively minor compared to Rugby League on the Sunshine Coast is misguided. Coverage of the event was not doe solely by local media. Reference number 2 on this page refers to the video of the game. It was not produced by a local. Finally as to your statement as to whether the game would apear in a book about the greatest games in the SCSSRU, I can't see where you are coming from with it. I doubt you were there. --RockerballAustralia 08:31, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
      • The article does not provide any clues as to why the game is in any way notable? I mean The first fifteen minutes was full of penalties against Grammar. Well that's an unusal event in RU - not. The TV coverage was so far as I can see limited to the provincial TV news - they cover two came toads having a race to to a puddle on a slow news night. It wasn't like the lads went the biff and the resultant all-in with spectator participation made the national news. (Now that would have made the game notable.) I realise that the point I was making about the game not even being notable enough for anything beyond a minor reference in a book solely about the SCSSRU has gone over your head so I leave that to lie. And of course I wasn't at the game. Like most of the Australian population I wouldn't cross the road to watch RU: vide the average crowd at SRC games to date: 2483 - hardly a paying proposition. Albatross2147 13:29, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Note: This debate has been included in the list of Australia-related deletions. -- John Vandenberg 03:35, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
    • Delete - schools rugby union has no public profile in the area and there is nothing in this article to assert any notability about the game itself. The presence of secondary sources are needed to establish notability but don't guarantee notability; the subject itself must also be notable. See here for a relevant discussion. TerriersFan 03:53, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
    • Delete. Unencyclopedic, non-notable event. Keb25 04:15, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
    • Delete - NN. Spawn Man 07:42, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
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    The result was Keep. This article presents a list of events dispassionately; it represents an attempt to convey controversial (but obviously highly encyclopedic) information with reasonable economy. The selection criteria for the list are problematic, as only the actions of one group are represented; this is not necessarily, however, a NPOV violation. While the article title for any "List of non-military individuals killed by Israeli forces during the Second Intifada" (my feeble attempt at neutrality) is obviously another point of friction, such a list would convey equally encyclopedic information. Such lists might be linked to each other to provide a full view of the conflict. The division of casualties by group-affiliation in a conflict is not arbitrary, though it is sure to be contentious what to call these groups in a conflict of this kind. It is a neutral (though very sad) fact that Palestinians and Israelis have killed each other. Division of the casualties by partisanship is permitted for reason of economy. If Wikipedia somehow systemically fails to portray events held to be crucial by one group, that is a question beyond the scope of one AfD, and requires a "centralized discussion", RfC, or the like. Xoloz 13:57, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

    [edit] List of attacks committed during the Second Intifada

    List of attacks committed during the Second Intifada (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) – (View AfD)

    "The criteria used for this list: deliberate attacks against civilians in which ten people or more have been killed." These are arbitrary criteria and thus original research; furthermore, the criteria have been carefully designed to apply to only one side of the conflict. I'm sure Palestinians would say that suicide bombings are not "attacks against civilians" because Israel is heavily militarized with universal conscription, but that Israeli operations against them are. Furthermore, the standard is not actually being applied - the real standard is obviously "major attacks against Israelis". As evidence, note that the "Megiddo junction massacre" is listed sourced to an Israeli Ministry of Foreign Affairs site which explains that most of those killed were soldiers. The article was previously nominated as part of a mass nom along with lists of attacks by specific groups such as Hamas, etc. There's nothing inherently wrong with those articles because they list attacks of a specific group, and are honest about it. This article was recently moved from List of massacres committed during the al-Aqsa Intifada, an even more clearly POV title; now it's just a better disguised POV fork. Eleland 13:29, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

    • Delete: Firstly, this article is construed so as to exclude deaths of one side of a conflict, by means of its definition of "massacre", which must be "accidental". IDF automatically presents its thousands of Palestinian civilian victims as accidental, and do not conform to this arbitrary definition. An airstrike on populated areas has the necessary element of foresight to constitute intention and murder under most legal systems - it is thus legally equivalent to a suicide bombing. The effect is equivalent to an article called List of Massacres committe by Serbs in the Bosnian war. Secondly, an perhaps more importantly, an article listing Israeli massacres was deleted as POV [[25]], so this one whould be aswell.

    --Burgas00 14:27, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

    • Delete per nom as the criteria are arbitrary. --Agamemnon2 15:27, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Keep Eleland, saying the criteria for the list are arbitrary isn't a reason for deletion, if the criteria were open I get the impression you'd be saying it should be deleted because it didn't have clear criteria. Of course these suicide attacks against civilians are, well, exactly that. The fact that Hamas et al thinks Israeli women and kids are legitimate targets is because they're terrorists who target civilians. This article isn't original research, all these attacks happened and can be referenced by any number of sources. There are, in short, no good reasons for deletion here. If you want to write another article about Palestinians killed in the conflict, go ahead, but that's got nothing to do with this one. Nick mallory 14:55, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
      Comment: Such an article was created an deleted in an AFD... See: [[26]], --Burgas00 18:13, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
      Comment Are you arguing that Israeli attacks are not "deliberate", or not "against civilians"? Eleland 15:06, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Delete or Merge back - Listing these events under Second Intifada, is synthesis, unless the synthesis is cited from a reliable source Corpx 15:32, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Keep There is nothing wrong with this article that editing couldn't fix. Since this is 8-9 kilobytes long, if the "ten or more" criteria for the list were eliminated, the list could easily be lengthened. The list would not be arbitrary because it deals with killings in a specified place and time period. Want coverage of Palestinian deaths? Insert coverage of Palestinian deaths in this article. Nothing says you can't split the list into sections for "Attacks with 10 or more victims" and "Other attacks". You'd probably also want to split the list up into Palestinian victims and Israeli victims. All can be done without deleting. Noroton 22:09, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Keep per previous discussions (AfD2, AfD1). This was previously at "massacres" instead of "terrorist attacks", neither of which are limited to one side. That is, it isn't Wikipedia's job to enforce a false parity just because no intentional mass-killings of one side have been documented. TewfikTalk 09:11, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Keep - I'm open to suggestions about the title, but this information clearly belongs in

    Wikipedia. I also agree with Tewfik's point that we shouldn't create balance when there is one. --Leifern 13:50, 30 August 2007 (UTC) comment: In the intifada twice as many Palestinians were killed as Israelis, a good number of them civilians. You are talking about "creating" balance? :-)--Burgas00 21:32, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

    • keep Eleland's proposal is rank with POV. The incredibly weak, and arguably malicious, defense that the Israelis murdered were not civilians cannot be reasonably applied to the Dolphinarium massacre (13 of the 21 victims were not yet 18 years old) nor to the Sbarro restaurant massacre (7 of the 15 victims weren't yet 18 years old) nor to any of the other ones on this list because they were all attacks in public places (often where children are present) against non-combatants such as pizza restaurants, amusement parks, buses, and a Passover celebration. Those that were contemporarily in the army (or reserves) were probably not even in uniform, and even if they were, they would not be counted as a "military casualty." I doubt that a attack against civilians in a public place in Syria (which has similar universal conscription laws) would get be considered "military targets" as Eleland implies for attacks against Israeli civilians. --GHcool 06:19, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
    Please distinguish correctly between my own POV and POV which I have correctly attributed to others. In the specific case which I mentioned, the soldiers were uniformed reservists traveling to a military base, on a civilian bus route which served that military base. It is clear that Israel has also used aerial rockets and bombs to attack "militants" in public places where children are often present, for instance the attack on Salah Shehadeh's apartment building which killed at least 12 people, mostly civilians, including children. Furthermore, individual soldiers and settlers often kill one or two people at a time with no pretense of it being "collateral damage" - this happens practically every day - but the article's standard has been set to exclude these attacks even though they add up to thousands. It's only in very exceptional cases like that of Iman al-Hams, where a TV crew captured the incident, that the world notices. Eleland 17:11, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
    Eleland is wrong when he/she equivacates between the targeting of civilians in civilian areas such as amusement parks and pizza places to targeting terrorist infrastructure which is often, purposefully, in civilian areas. He/she is also wrong when he/she claims that people in the West Bank kill each other "practically every day." --GHcool 20:19, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
    Eleland is male and prefers to be addressed in the second person. I have not equated pizzeria bombings aimed at civilians to airstrikes on apartment buildings aimed at militants with the certain knowledge that many civillians will die; they are not exactly the same, although they are very similar. In any case, making this call ourselves, as the article does, is POV and original research. And according to B'Tselem, 660 Palestinians were killed in 2006; unless the number of persons killed per incident follows a drastically unusual statistical distribution, that means that Palestinians are being killed several times a week. Eleland 00:59, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
    Eleland's opinion is noted. It is also noted that he thinks that I am addressing him, when I am actually addressing the Wikipedia community. Since we don't see eye to eye on this issue, I don't feel it is worth my effort to convince him that I am right; therefore, I concentrate my efforts on the Wikipedia public. It is troubling to think that Eleland feels the need to turn this into a personal argument between two editors; it reveals a lack of confidence that his position is the correct one. Here's hoping that the Wikipedia content guideline triumph over WP:SOAPBOX. --GHcool 05:40, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
    Eleland's proposals are "rank with POV," "incredibly weak," and "arguably malicious," Eleland is "not worth convincing," Eleland's positions "reveal a lack of confidence," Eleland is soapboxing. And yet somehow Eleland, who has patiently clarified his positions, confined his asides to a single reminder that he is male, and not said a word about GHCool, is somehow the one who "feels the need to turn this into a personal argument between two editors," troubling the innocent GHCool.--G-Dett 23:44, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
    • Keep But with a rewrite to include Israeli terrorist attacks on Arabs (e.g. Eden Natan-Zada's Shfaram attack) as the article is highly POV in its current form, "only attacks on Israelis by Palestinians will be classed as "Massacres"" being a blatant example (this will involve relaxing the minimum number of people killed criteria, but that is subjective POV anyway). Number 57 08:09, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
      • (edit conflict) That text was inserted by Burgas00 in an unacceptable WP:POINT violation, which I reverted as soon as I saw it. TewfikTalk 08:13, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
        • OK, glad to see that has gone - very naughty of Burgas00, especially when he is voting to delete - but the article does need what few Israeli attacks there have been adding. Number 57 08:16, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Keep and delete then keep and delete before you keep or delete. You can even merge it with List of massacres commited by Israeli forces or you can just stop voting because it bothers wikipedia. -- FayssalF - Wiki me up® 09:54, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Strong Keep I previously left a detailed comment, but it was removed. Look in the history. --EAEB 15:35, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
    • delete, unless it can be balanced The list is POV cherry-picking of attacks by Palestinians against Israeli Jews. Also, the lede and the list refer to each attack as a massacre, which is both untrue (see Massacre) and extreme POV. (Not even the individual articles that are Wikilinked use the term massacre!) The only alternative to deletion, in my opinion, is balance, like List of massacres committed during the 1948 Arab-Israeli war, but I don't think such balance can be achieved with recent and on-going events. — Malik Shabazz (Talk | contribs) 18:13, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Delete, or at least move to a title that can possibly be neutral. I suggest something like "List of attacks during the Second Intifada" (avoiding the terms "committed" and "terrorist") and covering attacks by both sides. Possibly "armed actions" instead of "attacks"? --FOo 18:45, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Keep Every one of them is sourced. We don't balance one list of atrocities with another. We write an objective article about each. This list is objective, and the criteria clear. The political implications are another matter and discussed in the main article. That the facts may have for many people an obvious political implication one way or another is not the fault of the facts or a lack of NPOV. The title is objective. Justified or not, they are attacks, and I think "2nd Intifada" is a neutral term. DGG (talk) 08:04, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
    • comment - are we now allowed to use the word strong in afd's? Does it count for two, or multiplied by ten? Are 'strong' votes counted seperately? --Shuki 21:53, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
    • Keep per tewfik. --Shuki 21:55, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
    • Delete per nom. In any asymmetrical conflict the nature of the atrocities carried out by the two sides will naturally be distinctive to each; this page represents a very obvious gerrymander calculated to produce a one-sided list. Tewfik and Leifern's defenses against this charge – i.e., that it's not for us to "create balance" – are cute but uncompelling. An equal and opposite gerrymander could easily be contrived, as everyone here knows: List of war crimes committed during the Second Intifada, List of violations of the Geneva conventions and international law during the Second Intifada, Forms of collective punishment during the Second Intifada, Illegal land confiscation during the Second Intifada and so on. I'm not a fan of WP:POINT-violations, so I won't go and create any of these propaganda articles to balance the propaganda article we're discussing, but we may rest absolutely assured that the various policy principles invoked here by partisan editors to justify this propaganda article would be summarily if selectively jettisoned were any of those articles to be created. Let's have a little candor here shall we.--G-Dett 22:06, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
    • Delete per nom and G-Dett. This information could be useful to an NPOV article on "Casualties during the Al-Aqsa/Second Intifada" where everyone killed as a result of an attack of any kind by either side can be listed and categorized. Perhaps, it might serve as a sobering experience that builds bridges in shared misery. Tiamut 22:32, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
    • Comment Burgas00 and Eleland have been making straw-man edits to the article. Mark Chovain 00:54, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
      • Yeah, that's what I did. I quoted the lede in its entirety and then changed it to fool people. Burgas00 made a change and was reverted with an insufficient and confusing edit summary, so I unreverted him. Why don't you go after whoever it was who moved this from "List of attacks" to "List of terrorist attacks"? Eleland 00:56, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
    • Delete - One-sided, unbalanced. If the article is to be kept, all casualties (from both sides) need to be listed.--Kitrus 08:17, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
    • Keep - Article is well sourced and notable. Should not be deleted for reasons amounting to the existence or non-existence of other articles per WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS. Prester John -(Talk to the Hand) 08:46, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
      • Comment I do hope my argument wasn't mistaken for an OTHERSTUFFEXISTS argument. My point in invoking hypothetical articles analogous to this one was not to say that we'd need those for balance, much less to say that because those don't exist this shouldn't, but rather to demonstrate what's wrong with this article to good-faith editors whose political views may be clouding their judgment, or who might indeed be unaware of the underlying politics in "lists" such as this.--G-Dett 16:25, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
    • Delete - The article sounds like a propaganda flyer, more than a Wikipedia article!--Skatewalk 15:40, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
    • Keep it's a list, it has clear criteria, it's cited. In fact, it has the same criteria as List of massacres committed during the 1948 Arab-Israeli war. The problem seems to be some editors think it makes Hamas, al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades, and Islamic Jihad "look bad". Killing civilians makes them look bad. <<-armon->> 07:23, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
      • Comment You've got "look bad" in quotes, so that your strawman argument will look like it's been attributed. Nice touch. Yes, killing civilians makes Hamas, Islamic Jihad, and the IDF look bad, whether the killing takes the form of low-budget acts of terrorism (suicide bomb packed with nails in a pizzeria) or spectacular war crimes with real production value (two-ton bomb dropped on a residential neighborhood, wiping out a family and declared a "great success"). What hasn't occurred to you, Armon, is that there are editors here who don't share your goal of buffing up the image of one side, but are more concerned about Wikipedia "looking bad" when we type up and pass out these propaganda flyers.--G-Dett 11:22, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
    List of massacres committed during the 1948 Arab-Israeli war makes Jewish militias, Irgun, etc look bad, but thems the breaks. There are editors here, (i.e. you) who object to a cited list of facts because it lacks the necessary apologia about their tactics in asymmetrical conflict. I regard that as simply pov spin and an invalid reason to delete. I'll leave it to others to decide which makes WP look worse. <<-armon->> 21:37, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
    • Keep per Armon. gidonb 09:49, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
    • keep, any lists like this are obviouly POV... however, they serve as a base for someone who wants to explore into one topic or the other with seriousness. if we were to apply a "Wikipedia looking bad due to propaganda flyers", we should also delete "list of villages depopulated in palestine" (or whatever the name of that page is). JaakobouChalk Talk 12:25, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

    Comment Jaakobou, what about the deletion of this? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/List_of_massacres_commited_by_Israeli_forces I have nothing against this article, as long as it is renamed and ensures that civilian casualties on both sides, (i.e. including Palestinians) are represented. I think we should all agree that this is the only acceptable compromise. --Burgas00 12:42, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

    you ignored my point and raised a poorly copy-pasted article as an "improper example".. the similarities are smaller than the differences. please look at the list i've mentioned and let me know if you're willing to compromise and have it deleted. JaakobouChalk Talk 20:14, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
    • Keep per above. Briangotts (Talk) (Contrib) 14:21, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
    • Keep per Tewfik. 6SJ7 16:06, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
    • Keep and remove any caveats/disclaimers in the lead. A list of attacks is just that. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 20:27, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
    • Keep with the note per Jossi, the article is well sourced and neutral POV: the attacks happened, and were notable to both those who took credit for them and those who were victimized by them. The fact that the one side may claim that victims were legitimate targets is irrelevant, if we find a source from the other that all woe that the Palestinians suffer is legitimate do we delete all mention of that too? Hardly. Carlossuarez46 05:21, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
    • Keep just because a small vocal minority dislike the subject is not grounds for deletion. Kyaa the Catlord 15:42, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
      • Nor was it put forth as such.--G-Dett 17:11, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
    • Delete, merge or rewrite adding attacks by IDF in which large numbers of Palestinian civilians were killed. Otherwise this remains a one sided political pamphlet unworthy of any encyclopedia. Kyaa, I didn't know you represented a "silent majority"! ;-) Peace.--Bursa444 16:40, 6 September 2007 (UTC) — Bursa444 (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
    • Keep and remove caveats/disclaimers in the lead per Jossi so that there is nothing keeping this article from representing civilian casualties on both sides of the conflict, just a straightforward list of attacks. --MPerel 19:21, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
    • Keep - per Tewfik, Armon, Jossi and Carlossuarez46. No valid reason for deletion. ←Humus sapiens ну? 21:44, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
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    The result was merge and redirect to The Meanest Of Times (non-admin closure). John Vandenberg 02:38, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

    [edit] Flannigan's Ball

    Flannigan's Ball (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) – (View AfD)

    Non-notable album track. Joltman 12:55, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

    • Merge into The Meanest of Times - (and redirect accordingly) this does not need a stand alone article. Pedro |  Chat  15:34, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Merge and redirect per Pedro. Bláthnaid 17:37, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
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    The result was keep. Merger with Bengali people could, and probably should, be discussed on the article talk page. MastCell Talk 17:51, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

    [edit] Bangal

    Bangal (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) – (View AfD)

    Tagged as unreferenced for several years. I looked, but couldn't find any sources that would confirm the information in this article; if someone else is aware of such sources, I welcome them. FisherQueen (Talk) 12:41, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

    • Strong Keep: This is a widely used ethno-regional term for East Bengalis (i.e Bangladeshi). As for Corpx's question, no this is a different term from Bengali. Bangal and Ghoti are two terms widely used to represent East and West Bengalis respectively. Thanks. --Ragib 16:48, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    As for Fisherqueen's request for references, have you tried googling with key words "Bangal ghoti"? These words often appear together, so if you were trying to find "bangal", the results containing the actual context and use of the word might have been buried in other usages. Example references can be: this, this, this, etc. Thanks. --Ragib 16:54, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Strong keep. I contested the prod, with the edit comment 'obviously' as I thought that a bit of googling would make it clear that this is a very common concept. I also introduced the first one I could find, an article in the Telegraph about differences in diet between Bangals and Ghotis which I thought would make clear that this is a generally understood division. Perhaps I should have been clearer in my objections, and I apologise. Hornplease 01:27, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
    The articles are not on the words, rather the phenomena, which is verifiable and well established one. (as seen from the references I provided above, from reputable news sources and one academic journal). --Ragib 03:35, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
    In spite of the references provided - separate articles on these seem overkill. I suggest we can merge them with Bengali people and/or Bengali cuisine? Arman Aziz 06:45, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
    For an equivalent, see, Wessi and Ossi, or scouse and Geordie, or any of a dozen others. Really. Hornplease 05:42, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
    • Comment - Is this article really about Bengal? The second paragraph explains the term Ghoti. It's confusing. Either clarify it or delete this entry--NAHID 00:00, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
    • Keep, a number of google books mention ghoti and bangal so there will be more out there. One of the incoming links Talk:Aleister_Crowley/Archive_2 gives a book quote that goes towards the obviousness of this being a well known subject. The article is a bit confusing, but Afd is not cleanup - someone will probably need to hit the stacks to clarify and expand it, and what is current in the article will help them know where to start researching. This is too big for a dictionary entry. John Vandenberg 03:29, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
    • Merge and redirect to Bengali people. The sources only support the first line. The fact of this being a valid term doesn't mean that we need an article. The rest of the article is unsourced, and possibly unsourceable, thus failing WP:V. OTOH Bengali people is deficient in discussing this term so a merge will improve that article also. I would add that the article may be in error in describing the term as derogative; it certainly isn't used in a pejorative way in the sources I've seen. TerriersFan 03:36, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
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    The result was keep Ryan Postlethwaite 11:27, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

    [edit] Bayern Munich 1 - 2 Norwich City

    Bayern Munich 1 - 2 Norwich City (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) – (View AfD)

    Single match report of a not particularly notable second round football match Stephenb (Talk) 12:38, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

    • Delete Non notable etc--Pheonix15 12:50, 29 August 2007 (UTC) Changed opinion
    • This discussion has been included in WikiProject Football's list of football (soccer) related deletions. ChrisTheDude 13:18, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

    *Delete —Preceding unsigned comment added by Childzy (talk • contribs)

    • CommentKeepclarifying my opinion --Dweller 09:33, 31 August 2007 (UTC) It is probably the most notable match in the history of Norwich City F.C., but the article's not in very good shape and I'm not sure of the Football notability criteria for individual matches. I'll check at the WikiProject. --Dweller 13:30, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
      • Further to that, Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Football/Notability#Single_matches is somewhat helpful, but far from definitive. In the context of the history of Norwich City, this is an extraordinarily notable match, far more so than the victory over Vitesse Arnhem in the previous round, the loss to Inter Milan in the next, or even the 2nd leg of this tie (which finished 1-1). There's bags of RS available. The football guidelines seem to indicate that a match that is notable for one of its teams (the example given is the first World Cup match played by a side) may be notable. If that stands up, I opt for Keep. --Dweller 14:04, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
        • NB - I have requested members of the Football WikiProject to contribute to this AfD. I am happy for them to persuade me that this match is not notable. --Dweller 14:13, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Keep or at very least, merge as the template on the article page states. Unfortunately, WP Football doesn't have anything up about formatting for match articles, nor any defined notability standards. The discussion on said notability seems to be leaning towards World Cup and other international/national competition games, which this is. It was a bit of an upset, and will certainly be notable once we know what notable is in these cases. Definitely clean it up (I'll go fix the headers now), but don't delete. Hersfold (t/a/c) 14:06, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Keep I think there are a few momentous games in clubs' history that are notable, and this is one. ArtVandelay13 14:10, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Merge into History of Norwich City F.C. then Delete. Number 57 14:15, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
      • For info, "merge and Delete" is not a valid option under the GFDL, it would have to be "merge and re-direct"..... ChrisTheDude 14:16, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
        • Actually it just says it isn't advisable as it is confusing, but I think I phrased it in an understandable way - the detail should be mentioned in the History of NCFC article, but there is no point in having a redirect from such a title, so delete it. Number 57 15:43, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Delete - The match is not the final of a major competition like the FA Cup or the Champions League, and is therefore not notable. - PeeJay 14:19, 29 August 2007 (UTC) Keep - the notability of the match has been established. - PeeJay 20:46, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Weak can't decide yet... - unfortunately, I think while some consider this to be the "most notable" match in Norwich's history, it's subjective, the criteria for its notability are not clear, it's not like a WC, UEFA, FA Cup final, or a disaster occurred. However, the only defeat suffered by Bayern at their old ground is reasonable, but I do wonder how many other match/club combinations this could apply to. As for the merge, don't you just hate it when people slap a merge tag on and then don't bother discussing it? I'll come back to this when I've had more thought on the matter... Regardless of the decision, the aritlce definitely lacks citation... The Rambling Man 14:26, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
      • Weak Keep - still concerned over subjectivity but provision of citations has helped assert notability of the match in question. More work is still required if kept as the rest of the article remains unreferenced. The Rambling Man 10:57, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
        • Article expansion has been performed well, and cited adequately. It's a keeper. The Rambling Man 17:30, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
    • I have added some cited context and cited the main notability claim (that of the only defeat of Bayern by a British team). --Dweller 14:36, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Delete - I probably have enough material to write a reasonable Manchester United 3-5 West Bromwich Albion article, but I'm not convinced it would be notable enough for a whole article in Wikipedia. I'm also uncomfortable with how the article is named. Although in this instance it is clear which match is being referred to, I'm worried about the eventual possibility of disambig links such as: This article is about the 0-0 draw between Rochdale and Darlington on 10 March 2007. For other 0-0 draws between these two teams, see Rochdale 0-0 Darlington (disambiguation). I'm stretching the point but you see what I mean, hopefully. --Jameboy 15:59, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
      • I'm not aware of anyone regarding those matches as being particularly notable. There's enough material to write an article on any match, but this one carries certain claims of particular notability. --Dweller 17:21, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
        • NB Just for clarity, I would opt for delete if this were an article about Norwich's matches in the next or previous rounds, as they were not notable. This is perhaps the exact point Jameboy is referring to... the 0-0 Rochdale-Darlington is not notable. This is. --Dweller 19:36, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Delete It is notable only in the context of the history of NCFC: football fans without a particular interest in that club will have myriad other matches that they consider more significant. Laden with POV and opinion, it reads like a pean to the efforts of the Norwich players that night. Kevin McE 17:03, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    Comment: I had been invited on my talk page to reconsider. I acknowledge that there is less POV language, but it is still in essence a match report, and a match report is a work of journalism, not of encyclopaedic fact. If this stays, is every team to be invited to propose its most famous match as an article? Kevin McE 23:20, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
    • Merge to History of Norwich City F.C. - It is a notable event in the context of Norwich's history, but away from that it is not that notable (it would be a mere footnote in Bayern's history, for example). Oldelpaso 18:16, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
      • Please see my response to Thin Arthur, below. --Dweller 15:52, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Keep having weighed this up, I believe this match is significant to the history of Norwich. Rather than merge with History of Norwich City F.C. I believe this should be a sub-page as the article is already very long and there is enough significance for this article to stand alone. Englishrose 18:20, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Delete - while this was a fine result for Norwich City, individual matches at this stage of a competition aren't notable enough. A mention in the Norwich City article, fine. A mention in the 1993-94 UEFA Cup article, fine. An individual article - no. - fchd 19:44, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Delete or alternatively Merge to History of Norwich City F.C.. The match itself is not notable enough to deserve its own article, and it is much better to cover the event into the club's history article. --Angelo 20:30, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

    *Merge per everyone. It's the most notable match in Norwich's history. Porterjoh 21:27, 29 August 2007 (UTC)Porterjoh changed his mind, see below. --Dweller 17:38, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

    • Keep - this is a notable game in both clubs' history. Nothing above convinces me that there is a good reason to delete it. TerriersFan 23:23, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Merge to wherever. I don't think individual matches are particularly notable unless it's a tournament final. Thin Arthur 05:58, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
      • That can't be true. There are any number of matches from history that weren't finals that are massively notable, for a multiplicity of reasons. What about Scotland's victory at Wembley against the 66 World Cup Winners? Hillsborough. Belo Horizonte, 1950. The Hand of God match. etc etc etc. The Scotland match is a good example... massively notable in Scottish history, a mere footnote in English, Oldelpaso. --Dweller 15:52, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
      • Merging is only meant for when a lack of sources means that a decent length article can't be written. This article is already a decent length. If you think the match is non-notable, you should vote delete. Epbr123 17:16, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Keep - notable match. Epbr123 13:03, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Merge to History of Norwich City F.C. —Lesfer (t/c/@) 15:25, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
    • NB Comment Terriersfan and I have substantially enhanced the article of late. Review of the article by those who've already expressed an opinion would be appreciated. --Dweller 15:48, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Keep - I've changed my mind. It's notable enough to stick and it's a superb article Porterjoh 17:36, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Comment - I have added further sources to underscore notability and, with others, cleaned it up and restructured. TerriersFan 17:53, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Keep Has been been made into a good article with plenty of reliable sources demonstrating the notability of the match. While I would generally believe individual matches should not be notable, where strong evidence of notability can be shown they should be fine as has been done in this case. Davewild 18:51, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Weak keep Has dramatically improved since my first vote. I still don't think it's very notable though--Pheonix15 20:53, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Keep well I'm convinced, it has turned out as a very good and well referenced article and im sure with continued work in the future it will be fine, not 100% sure on notability but who are we to decide, there are articles on much less notable things than this. Great work with all the editing --Childzy ¤ Talk 22:03, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Keep as notability is established, but I suggest it be moved to something like Bayern Munich v Norwich City (1993), as I know of no precedent for using the scoreline of a game as an article title, other than Germany 1 England 5 (2001) and Arbroath 36 Bon Accord 0, but in those instances it was the specific scoreline itself that was notable..... ChrisTheDude 22:21, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Keep Certainly a notable match and the article has been well researched with a good variety of respectable sources. I do, however, agree with ChrisTheDude that the article's title should be changed and his suggested alternative looks good to me. Mls11 00:07, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
      • If the consensus is to keep the article, a rename move sounds sensible and ChrisTheDude's suggestion is a good one. However, I'd float it at the article talk page first, to assess consensus. Better to debate it there than here. --Dweller 09:28, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Delete Wikipedia is not a report site. Raymond Giggs 06:50, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
      • Agreed. This article however, is already more than simply a match report. Furthermore, there is consensus that articles about notable matches are encyclopedic. This AfD needs to decide if this article is about a notable topic, sourced by reliable sources. I'm sorry if you disagree with the consensus surrounding inclusion of single notable matches, but a consensus it is. --Dweller 15:52, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
    • Comment as I was asked to review the article from another user, let me note my anti-keep vote is motivated by a personal distaste for match articles. Wikipedia is not a report site, as the user above noted, and I don't think there's enough space for a single match that is important solely for a single football side in the whole world. We all football fans probably have a match we remember best (to me, it's obviously a 5-0 win for Palermo in the 2003-04 Sicilian derby, for instance), but I wouldn't ever start an article about it, because I feel the issue can be best covered and fits better within the club history, with no need for a separate article. --Angelo 20:41, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Comment - I'm abstaining, I have no opinion on the matter of this match or any other such articles, but please, please, if this is kept - by keep, no consensus, whatever - rename it. The title is exceedingly unhelpful in identifying the match to anyone but those who happen to know it. I can't actually think of a better title (why couldn't it have been in the Quarter finals? That'd make naming it much easier :p), but as it stands it's completely ambiguous as a general encyclopedic title. AllynJ (talk | contribs) 21:52, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
      • Please see above for discussion of rename. --Dweller 15:49, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
    • Merge to History of Norwich City F.C., not nearly notable. Notability within one team's history is not sufficient to make it worthy of its own article, especially when the match is not even a final or part of a top-level competition. Keeping this as it stands would allow lots of single-match articles to be written, based on subjective assessments of what is notable for any one team. The article is well sourced, though, so the bulk of it should be kept, but only as part of the broader article. --Gabbec 04:54, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
    • Comment - we are not short of server space so why does it matter how many single match reports we have? TerriersFan 21:32, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
    • Comment - a merge would surely unbalance the 'History' article? TerriersFan 21:30, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
    • Comment Most of this debate has centred on notability: I would raise the issue of whether what is essentially a match report is encyclopaedic? Kevin McE 10:41, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
      • Interesting, however, one could strip out the "match report" elements and it would still be a decent stub+ article. Hence the concentration on notability. Besides, there is consensus that such articles should exist, subject to notability. --Dweller 10:53, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
    • Comment - there is no issue with notability - notability comes from compliance with WP:N which requires multiple sources which this article plainly has. The main objection is based on WP:IDONTLIKEMATCHREPORTS, which has yet to be agreed :-) Objections to match reports are understandable but not based in policy. However, a move to eliminate match reports, which is entirely valid, should apply to across the board to all sports. TerriersFan 16:20, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
    I do like match reports in my newspaper, but they are journalistic writing, dealing with description, perception and impression, and not encyclopaedic. To that extent, I do not see that any new policy is needed. Maybe this is not the place to raise the issue for final resolution (where might be?), but the issue is nevertheless relevant here. Kevin McE 12:30, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

    I have made some further improvements to the article today, enhancing the sections explaining why this result was such a shock (and therefore notable). --Dweller 13:56, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

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    The result was Delete. Wow... it is fairly depressing that an article lacking reliable sources achieved good article status. Keep commenters argument "but, it's a good article!" is entirely unconvincing, given the quality of those references. Using the proper, nifty citation tags for an author's webpage on his own creation does not render that source reliable. As the keep commenters offer nothing substantive in their commentary, no evidence rebuts the prima facie case that these sources are highly dubious. Xoloz 14:20, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

    [edit] Zig Zag (character)

    Zig Zag (character) (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) – (View AfD)

    Furcruft, not-individually-notable fetish character from a webcomic. The webcomic itself was kept but that is not an excuse to write an article about each individual character. - ∅ (∅), 12:33, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

    Keep: This character is very notable within the furry fandom, and is one of the most popular (see the referenced Furtean Times survey). ISD 13:03, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    Within the furry fandom, yes, I'm a fur myself, and a skunk to boot, so God knows I have heard enough of Zig Zag to last me a lifetime. Lots of things are notable within the furry fandom but not outside it. I assert that Zig Zag is one of those things. - ∅ (∅), 13:29, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    Well, I believe that she is notable. After all, she appears in not just one, but several webcomics. Zig Zag can be considered to be something of an icon of the furry fandom. And if this article is good enough to be a good article, I think it is good enough to stay on Wikipedia. ISD 16:57, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Strong keep, This article is clearly of a notable subject, given that it's been rated as good article. I cannot possibly fathom a GA candidate ever being deleted. Ten Pound Hammer • (Broken clamshells•Otter chirps•Review?) 17:52, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Delete, no reputable sources let alone any suggesting notability. Wow, if a weasely-worded criticism section with a single source of "Weird_guy_in_the_corner" is part of a "good article," then I guess I need to start nominating some of mine. --Dragonfiend 07:41, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Delete, per Dragonfiend. Can't quite figure out how this became a good article, myself. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Lychosis (talk • contribs) 20:38, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
    • Comment - Just a minor correction: the character was created by an individual going by the pseudonym "Max Blackrabbit." She was popularized in Sabrina Online, but did not originate there. As others have pointed out, she's very notable within the Furry fandom, but I doubt there's any notability outside of that. -- 68.156.149.62 02:16, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
    • Response - I've corrected the article as you asked. ISD 07:32, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
    • Delete per nom and Dragonfiend. I don't see how this is a GA to begin with. - Eulerskunk 15:51, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
    • Comment I don't have a particularly strong opinion about this, but it seems like it would be better to merge the article's contents into another related article rather than delete it. GreenReaper 20:05, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
      • I don't think Wikipedia needs this content... this is a bad article about a non-notable character, and should never have been promoted to GA status in the first place. - ∅ (∅), 04:26, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
    • Note: This debate has been included in the list of Fictional characters-related deletions. -- John Vandenberg 02:23, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
    • Delete Regardless of the outcome of this AfD, this article should be removed from GA status, as it clearly fails it. That aside, this would seem to be very non-notable. -- Ned Scott 03:47, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
    • Comment - I'll tell you one thing; boy is that skunk hot! ;) (This is meant as a joke, I'm not really attracted to small furry animals... Really I'm not. I swear I never touched the racoon, she's a liar!) ;) Spawn Man 07:48, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
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    The result was Delete. Carlossuarez46 05:23, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

    [edit] Axemorph Demon

    Axemorph Demon (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) – (View AfD)

    A character from the Dreamblade series. Contains what could be considered Dreamblade-cruft info about points being worth whatever...too narrow an article for Wikipedia? Moglex 19:36, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

    • This AfD nomination was incomplete. It is listed now. DumbBOT 11:49, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Delete A quick google search shows that it is impossible to verify the contents of this article. There is also concerns over notability as well. --Siva1979Talk to me 12:25, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Delete unless real world notability is found Corpx 15:26, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
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    The result was delete. Singularity 20:54, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

    [edit] List of Linksys products

    List_of_Linksys_products (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) - (View AfD)
    • Delete - Is a niche (relatively speaking} product catalogue an appropriate encyclopaedia article? WebHamster 11:11, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
    • This AfD nomination was incomplete. It is listed now. DumbBOT 11:49, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Delete as list of products is not notable. --Gavin Collins 11:52, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Delete. Indiscriminate collection of information; WP is not an advertising medium or a catalog. -- Mikeblas 14:07, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Delete per not directory of Linksys products Corpx 15:26, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Delete Does not serve as a useful guide to navigation, a template would be better. Wikipedia is not a directory. Pedro |  Chat  15:38, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    without reference to this particular list, i think such a list is generally much less obtrusively commercial than a template, which highlights that each product in every related article. DGG (talk) 08:08, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
    • Delete. While I disagree with the above deletes claiming a list of products doesn't belong on Wikipedia, there's no information in this one. Someguy1221 21:22, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
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    The result was delete. Singularity 20:55, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

    [edit] PLUS Markets Group

    PLUS Markets Group (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) – (View AfD)

    Written in advertising style, no sources, one external link to advertised website. Unsalvageable. Soleron 15:34, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

    • Delete per Soleron. Plus Trading is a significant share trading platform for small companies, but notability to come. --Gavin Collins 12:38, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
    • This AfD nomination was incomplete. It is listed now. DumbBOT 11:49, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Delete per lack of coverage Corpx 15:25, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Delete seems to have minimal coverage in third-party sources, suggesting lack of notability and verifiability. Jakew 22:42, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Delete per lack of notability and sources. Not quite blatant enough for a speedy. Dbromage [Talk] 00:16, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
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    The result was Keep while weight of numbers stack up for deletion in this case the question of notability and advertising have been addressed. Article uses primary sources WP:CORP says that PS are acceptable providing notability is established with secondary sources, its listed on HKSE - major stock exchange listings are a good indicator of notability, multiple awards - another good indicator. WP:CORP says by listing it at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion if no notable content remains this article does have notable content. Gnangarra 03:16, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

    [edit] Teleeye

    Teleeye (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) - (View AfD)

    Remove: No claim to notability. My search for reliable sources to support notability comes up with nothing. Does being a public company automatically make a company notable? Sounds like a company trying to advertise its products more than an encyclopedia entry. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Cbc1960 (talk • contribs) 2007/08/29 10:09:15

    • This AfD nomination was incomplete. It is listed now. DumbBOT 11:49, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Note: This debate has been included in the list of Hong Kong-related deletions. -- KTC 13:22, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Delete as advertising. Doesn't quite fit the bill for GSD G11, but it needs a lot of NPOV work and I'm not finding any reliable sources either - it's mentioned plenty of places, but always on sites that are trying to sell their products. Hersfold (t/a/c) 13:54, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Delete Does not satisfy WP:ORG. Needs substantial coverage in independent and reliable sources, and is sourced only to its own website. Perhaps by the end of the AFD period someone can dig out additional sourcing. Edison 15:16, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Comment - I created this article. Admittedly it was challenging to find sources to establish the minimum notability. However, I hope that the addition of these sources will add to the notability of the article. One, page published by the City University of Hong Kong is an organization snapshot which among the general overview includes a list of industry awards to which the Teleeye Group has received internationally. Secondly, a link to a Teleeye Group page which details the employment of the system in successfully solving a murder case in a Philippine mall. Third, a CityU press release detailing the awards that Teleeye Group has won. Luke! 21:28, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

    Remove: Still appears like a company trying to advertise its products more than an encyclopedia entry. Is it really notable? Agree with Hersfold's finding above. Cbc1960 2007/09/02 14:20:15 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Cbc1960 (talk • contribs) 21:25, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

    Comment - This is not intended to be a personal attack; however, I find it interesting that the nominating editor's edit history comprises of only 3 edits, all of which have only been to nominate this article for deletion. Perhaps an underlying motive? Luke! 01:08, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
    Comment - I came across this article, thought it read like an advetisement, revisited a few days later and it still reads like a self-promotion. In any case, let's not get personal, we should let the article speak for itself. Cbc1960 3 September 2007 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Cbc1960 (talk • contribs)
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    The result was delete. Singularity 20:58, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

    [edit] Alleycatsdavidloga

    Alleycatsdavidloga (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) – (View AfD)

    The notable subject is covered adequately at Alleycats, there is no reason for this extremely poor quality article to exist, and absolutely nothing worth merging with Alleycats. I attempted to prod this but the prod was contested. Xorkl000 11:44, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

    • Delete of course. I was gonna speedy it but it doesn't quite pass G1. Eleland 13:07, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Delete as a poorly written duplicate. The title is so odd (why just the first name of two of the people in question? Indeed, why any at all?) it doesn't even warrant redirecting to the article instead. AllynJ (talk | contribs) 13:58, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Delete per AllynJ • nancy • 12:58, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
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    The result was merge and redirect. CloudNine 19:11, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

    [edit] In Joy Still Felt

    In Joy Still Felt (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) – (View AfD)

    There has been no real content on this article, concerning a volume of Isaac Asimov's autobiography, since its creation, nor any attempt to expand since its stubbing (which occurred nearly a year ago). My feeling is that any meaningful content it could have (on the author's life) is more appropriate to the article Isaac Asimov, being biographical in nature. Mark H Wilkinson (t, c) 11:36, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

    • Merge to Issac Asimov or In Memory Yet Green (more appropriate, I think) with no prejudice on re-creating at a later date. This could be expanded significantly, but right now it's hovering just over a sub-stub with no obvious intention to expand it. At the moment, it's little more than a redirect anyway. Hersfold (t/a/c) 13:25, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Merge and redirect to In Memory Yet Green. The second is no less important than the first, but the name recognition is lower (the first has the advantage of being a bildungsroman). --Dhartung | Talk 18:25, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
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    The result was delete. KrakatoaKatie 17:45, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

    [edit] Noooxml

    Noooxml (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) – (View AfD)

    Article fails WP:NOTABILITY, WP:NOT. Article was created by an WP:SPA account with no other edits other than related to noooxml.org. Wikipedia is WP:NOT#SOAPBOX.

    See also Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Spam#http:.2F.2Fspam.noooxml.org Hu12 11:20, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

    • Delete unless sources giving coverage are found Corpx 15:23, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Weak delete per lack of independent coverage to meet WP:ATT. This Google search shows that very little has yet been published about this campaign, although the broader issue is being discussed on many websites and a few magazines. Wikipedia is not Wikinews. So far the NoOOXML campaign hasn't had enough impact to stand out from tens of thousands of Internet advocacy campaigns (including Microsoft's propaganda campaign supporting the opposing side of the issue). If it gets further published attention beyond open-source advocacy sites, it might merit a merge into a parent article on the document-format controversy, but so far I don't see sufficient sources for that. Barno 18:44, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Delete unless something can be found that meets WP:ATT and WP:NN. --A. B. (talk) 20:32, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
    Comment -- slightly off-topic: see the accusation of Microsoft COI editing at Talk:Noooxml. This is consistent with press reports on the issue of Microsoft COI editing. I think this is something to watch for (although, as I pointed out to the Noooxml article's author, 2 wrongs don't make a right). --A. B. (talk) 20:32, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
    • Delete for all the obvious reasons. It is just people wantiing to promote their petition site hAl 21:40, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
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    The result was delete. There was no support for the retention of the page and no material to merge that is not available elsewhere. There is no point to a redirect since this is not a likely search term. TerriersFan 22:42, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

    [edit] List of Invaded episodes

    This article is basically a copy-and-paste of material which already exists at Cartoon Network Invaded. Each individual Invaded episode already has it's own dedicated episode page, listing them together on one page is redundant. Yngvarr 11:16, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

    • Delete or Redirect to Cartoon Network Invaded#Shows. Episode lists should only summarize each episode, not go into huge detail as is done on the dedicated articles. Since there's only five episodes anyway, I don't think a separate list is necessary, simply redundant to what it already in the article. Hersfold (t/a/c) 13:31, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Delete this is just plot summary + Trivia - information only pertainable to the fictional universe Corpx 15:23, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
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    The result was delete. You may redirect as needed. Mackensen (talk) 21:47, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

    [edit] Drax (Doctor Who)

    Drax (Doctor Who) (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) – (View AfD)
    Drax (Time Lord) (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs)

    Article recently deleted and redirected to The Armageddon Factor without prior discussion. I have no strong personal opinion on keeping or deleting or merging the article, but I felt it appropriate it open it up for a wider discussion. If I do have an opinion, I feel from looking at other articles within Category:Time Lords that this one has perhaps an equal potential to grow, or perhaps a larger article be created out of all the minor Time Lord characters. SilkTork *** SilkyTalk 10:45, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

    • Redirect to The Armageddon Factor. There isn't much to say about the character that can't easily be contained in his main (and only) television appearance. Drax's book appearances are scant, and the material on that can be contained in the relevant novel/merchandise articles; the character suffers from little real world coverage and there isn't even a whisper of a hint that he'll be resurrected for the current television and book series. As such, a separate article represents an unnecessary content fork which can only serve to duplicate material which properly belongs elsewhere. Like Castellan Kelner, Drax (Doctor Who) could most profitably be used as a redirect. --Mark H Wilkinson (t, c) 11:15, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Delete as non-notable per WP:Fiction. Despite having a loyal fanbase, notability critera should still adhered to when articles are created. --Gavin Collins 11:48, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Delete Just a one-episode character. Also added Drax (Time Lord) which is an left-over from the move to Drax (Doctor Who). — Edokter • Talk • 12:12, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Delete or Redirect to Partial list of Time Lords. Information about the charachter and story could be placed there. StuartDD ( t • c ) 13:28, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Redirect to The Armageddon Factor. Redirects are cheap, and it will discourage anyone else from recreating the article. Generally, there is no good reason to nominate a redirect page for ddeletion. —gorgan_almighty 13:36, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    Ooops! My bad. I forgot to restore the text when nominating for deletion. I have done that now. I hope people have been looking at the history, and not !voting on a simple redirect! SilkTork *** SilkyTalk 07:25, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Delete per lack of coverage from reliable, independent sources Corpx 15:22, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Redirect to The Armageddon Factor. It's not inconceivable that someone could look up this character, and a redirect would be useful at the disambiguation page Drax per WP:MOSDAB, which says "This guidance to avoid piping means that a link to a redirect term will sometimes be preferred to a direct link, if the redirect term contains the disambiguation title and the redirect target does not." —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 15:00, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
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    The result was speedy delete as spam and not asserting notability.-Wafulz 13:18, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

    [edit] ScanBangla

    ScanBangla (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) – (View AfD)

    Written by user:Scanbangla. Pure spam? -- RHaworth 10:43, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

    • Speedy Delete Nothing to salvage even if the company is notable (which doesn't appear to be the case). Pure OR and agree with nom, it is evidently, spam. → AA (talk) — 11:04, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Speedy Delete as spam. Arman Aziz 11:34, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Speedy delete. Corporate vanity: main contributor and creator was Scanbangla (talk · contribs). MER-C 13:03, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
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    The result was Delete. Carlossuarez46 05:26, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

    [edit] Food Is Not Love

    Food Is Not Love (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) – (View AfD)

    No sign of any verifiable sources at all. (Contested prod) Pak21 10:12, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

    • Delete unattributed and non-notable. Carlosguitar 11:39, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Delete per lack of coverage Corpx 15:21, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Comment There was, several months ago, some coverage of this podcast on the Bravo TV network home page -- apparently it got a good review -- but my (quick) searching has not been able to uncover it now. That was the only verifiable source I had on it... so I cannot argue with a delete on this. That said, the podcast is on indefinite hiatus and has lost one of its hosts, apparently, so it may not so much need an entry anyhow.Deltopia 18:56, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
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    The result was redirect to GURPS 4e Basic Set. Singularity 17:34, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

    [edit] GURPS 4e Lite

    AfDs for this article:
    Articles for deletion/GURPS 4e Lite
    Articles for deletion/GURPS 4e Basic Set Articles for deletion/GURPS 4e Basic Set (2nd nomination)
    GURPS 4e Lite (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) – (View AfD)

    2nd Nomination for this game guide fails Wikipedia:Notability (books) guidelines, the article itself has no content or context other than link to publisher's website and in contravention of WP:NOSPAM --Gavin Collins 08:49, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

    • Delete GURPS may be notable, but this booklet fails primary notability criteria as there are no non trivial WP:RS references.Obina 09:27, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Redirect to GURPS or List of GURPS books. Article is non-notable per WP:BK, and redirect will discourage re-creation. Percy Snoodle 13:01, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Redirect to GURPS 4e Basic Set. --Agamemnon2 13:38, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Redirect to the Basic set article, it can be appropriately covered there. However, as far as it goes, GURPS Lite is reasonably notable, reviewed in places like [27], and industry magazines like KODT. That said, there's really not much to say about it that can't simply fit in the article on the main set. Of course, you could have just done the redirect yourself if you weren't so focused on deletion. I do hope you're not going to try to nominate that for deletion. It would be misguided on your part. FrozenPurpleCube 19:37, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Comment For those interested, I've set up a discussion on Talk:List of GURPS books where we can hopefully handle this subject directly without further AFD's. FrozenPurpleCube 15:18, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Redirect to List of GURPS books or other target. -- JHunterJ 12:27, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
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    The result was delete. Singularity 17:28, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

    [edit] Cavachon

    AfDs for this article:
    Articles for deletion/Cavachon Articles for deletion/Cavachon (2nd nomination)
    Cavachon (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) – (View AfD)

    procedural nomination Article was nominated for deletion via WP:PROD but had been previously considered at AFD in March 2006; the outcome of the prior AFD was Keep. The current deletion nomination via PROD was accompanied by the following reasons: "The subject fails notability, as its only significant coverage is from the American Hybrid Canine Association, which only requires that a $5 fee be paid for membership." User:Ceyockey (talk to me) 08:38, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

    • Delete as patently failing the tests of WP:N and WP:V. VanTucky (talk) 15:36, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Delete short unreferenced stub article, with little claim to notability. Jerazol 21:01, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Delete Not notable. --Pharaoh Hound (talk) (The Game) 22:18, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Weak Keep Cavachon breeds are sold at pet stores. I did not know what mix of breed it was so I referenced Wikipedia. I think this has notability. -- Thenewdeal87 14:36, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

    (See http://www.pets4you.com/cavachon.html and http://groups.msn.com/CavachonDogs)

    • Comment Notability is determined by significant coverage in reliable, published sources, not commercial viability and anecdotes. VanTucky (talk) 19:03, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
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    The result was merge into Hsiung Feng III. KrakatoaKatie 17:15, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

    [edit] Taiwan missile test (2006)

    Taiwan missile test (2006) (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) – (View AfD)

    Both of the source links are dead and I cannot find any information on whether or not this test actually took place. --CWY2190TC 08:13, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

    • Merge to Hsiung Feng III. There's an article on the then-upcoming test at Jane's[28] (subscription) but generally the test did not receive the coverage that DPRK or PRC tests "across the China Strait" do. --Dhartung | Talk 08:43, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Merge with Hsiung Feng III-Pheonix15 12:27, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Merge or delete - I can find articles referring to the then future test from back when this article was written (admittedly in Chinese), but I cannot find any sources reporting the test actually taking place. If sources can be find and provided reporting it taking place, then I recommend merge as minor effect during the missile development. If no post-test sources can be provided, I recommend delete as non-verifiable that the test actually took place and the article merely being a past crystal ball. KTC 13:35, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Note: This debate has been included in the list of Taiwan-related deletions. -- KTC 13:37, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Merge with Hsiung Feng III and source properly. The two cited references are no longer available. Dbromage [Talk] 04:20, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
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    The result was Delete, this is little more than a neologism dictionary definition without content of a real world notability/usage or why it is important, much of what is called Plan B here is covered in turn state's evidence. Carlossuarez46 05:29, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

    [edit] Plan B (law)

    Plan B (law) (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) – (View AfD)

    PROD concern was "Utter BS - this is not a real legal term. It may have been used in a TV episode, but that's it." → AA (talk) — 08:33, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

    • Delete. Nothing corroborating found through Google News Archive or Google Books. This does sound more like TV law, or a particular plot. --Dhartung | Talk 08:46, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Delete it was a minor recurring plot item from The Practice - and that article already covers this topic --Xorkl000 12:59, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Comment That's where I heard it. --Dhartung | Talk 19:42, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Keep I created it because we do use it in my legal community, contrary to the very bitter ip address' claim. I don't know that I would be broken hearted if it was deleted, though, since there does seem to be a dearth of citations...probably because it is the type of term that would not be used in an opinion.Mneumisi 13:23, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
    • well find some citations because as you indicate above it seems to be original research --Xorkl000 21:07, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Comment, this is a neologistic legal term. I am not going to touch it. Bearian 23:59, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Comment - note that theres not much corroboration from google, ghits for '"plan b" "criminal defense"' [29] show unrelated results. '"Plan B" Law' is the same. --Xorkl000 11:42, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
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    The result was keep. Regardless of the accuracy or folly of these "theories", they exist, and they continue to garner substantial mainstream media attention. Spike Lee's HBO film When the Levees Broke is a good example. The article needs some cleanup, but its presence improves the encyclopedia. KrakatoaKatie 17:10, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

    [edit] Alternative theories regarding Hurricane Katrina

    Alternative theories regarding Hurricane Katrina (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) – (View AfD)

    Article really doesn't serve any purpose at all except to talk about supposed "conspiracy theories". There are serious NPOV issues with the article. There are few reliable sources in the article. Wikipedia is not a blog or a personal sounding board. Need I talk about anything else? Dr. Cash 06:46, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

    • Strong Delete Just chock full of POV junk, and has no purpose other than agenda-pushing. Jmlk17 07:04, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Strong Keep As article shows, various persistant rumors, theories, and common misconceptions have gotten considerable media attention. Article provides some context, analysis, and in some appropriate instances debunking. Room for improvement, but a useful article. -- Infrogmation 07:07, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Delete There are barely any reliable sources. Most of the links are to blogs and even forums. Not to mention major WP:NPOV issues. ---CWY2190TC 08:20, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Delete, mostly unsourced POV conspiracycruft. I see no way this could possibly be useful, and Wikipedia is not a blog. --Coredesat 08:34, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Delete. Utter failure of WP:NPOV's text on "undue weight". "Opinions" of such people as Fred Phelps mean nothing. Conspiracy theories lack foundation. Sjakkalle (Check!) 09:26, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Comment While everyone knows the weather is controlled by Martian Jews and Venusian Republicans from their secret undersea base on the dark side of the Moon, perhaps this could be a decent article allowing such drivel to be firmly debunked. Such theories, although entirely wacky, do exist. Nick mallory 11:37, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Strong delete it's hilarious but not exactly encyclopediodic--Pheonix15 12:30, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Strong keep This article is of sufficient quality to be kept. I think this AFD is merely attempt to white-wash over what really happened in August of 2005. --EAEB 14:30, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Delete The whole basis of this article is synthesis Corpx 15:19, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Keep, because so long as everything is cited, this article concerns a fairly notable disaster that has indeed been the focus of all kinds of alternate theories. Just consider the following, for example: [30], [31], [32], etc. Sincerely, --Le Grand Roi des CitrouillesTally-ho! 15:26, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    If an article has to depend on references to snopes to keep it alive, it should probably be deleted. Other references in the article, like franklinavenue.blogspot.com, godhatesfags.com, or newsfromthefridge.typepad.com, are rather "embarassing" sources, and don't even come close to meeting the standards of WP:RS. Dr. Cash 19:58, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    Are you purposely ignoring the Nature, The Guardian, TIME, CNN, and MSNBC sources? --Pixelface 13:49, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Weak keep It needs severe editorial pruning and improvement, since it contains both plausible theories, such as "global warming makes hurricanes more severe" but dismisses it with the unsourced statement "Most climatologists today believe that the relationship between climate change and hurricane intensity is unproven, and that the increase in hurricane activity noted over the last 20 years, can be accounted for by factors other than climate change such as the 25-40 year cycle." Then it talks about God causing the hurricane, or conspirators with weather control machines controlling it, and mixes it in with discussions of conspirators blowing up levees to flood the black neighborhoods. So widely reported conspiracy theories are entitled to a balanced discussion, even if their truth is dubious, but the article should not be a grab bag of notions that are not held only by a tiny fringe group. Wikipedia, like Snopes, can serve a debunking function. Edison 15:33, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    Note: Snopes is not an encyclopedia, and Wikipedia is not Snopes. We're not here to debunk this type of junk, nor should we be providing space for conspiracy theories and wackos to post this nonsense. Dr. Cash 20:00, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    Then you may want to nominate the Apollo Moon Landing hoax accusations article for deletion next. --Pixelface 13:51, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Strong Keep - the NPOV claims are bogus, the article lists various theories most of which contradict the others. If undue weight was applied to one or other, then that would obviously be an issue. In practice, it's a good strong article, I was surprised to read it after reading the comments here. It collects together a large number of related issues and presents them in a fairly unbiased, well written, way. It gives a good historical picture of the reactions to Katrina and its aftermath. I'm bewildered, to be honest, that there's so much support for its deletion. Have all you guys read the article, or did you get no further than the title? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Squiggleslash (talk • contribs) 15:45, August 29, 2007 (UTC)
    Claiming this this isn't POV is bogus; it's ignoring the greater issue with keeping this kind of crap on wikipedia. Dr. Cash 19:58, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Keep I see no POV issues. The claims listed are POV, but the article does not deal with them in a POV manner. Citations look good, may need editing - as does most of Wikipedia. MarkBul 18:09, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    You can't be serious?! The citations, for one, are in horrible shape! Mainly just a bunch of external links, and many of them blogs and personal accounts. Hardly what I'd call, "journalism". Dr. Cash 19:52, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Keep. The initial purpose of this article was to keep a wide variety of fringe theories from popping up in the "mainstream" article on Hurricane Katrina. It has served that function well, and (so long as interest in Hurricane Katrine keeps riding high, will continue to do so). Cheers! bd2412 T 19:01, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    Given that it's now two years later, I don't see this as a problem. The main article on Hurricane Katrina is featured, and this article has been largely ignored, as it's just a bunch of hogwash theories and bullcrap,... Dr. Cash 19:52, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    [citation needed]! Aw, banana oil sez you. :-) Take some time to check it out, and you will find that the article deals with topics which have been repeatedly raised in television, documentaries, leading main stream magazines, newspapers, etc. Some portions of the article handle them rather well. You may, for example, consider the suggestion of deliberately blown up levees hogwash-- but you'll find it hard to to spend any time talking with or reading first hand accounts of people who lived through it in the Lower 9th Ward without encountering that impression repeatedly. The article gives good background on why many people suspect that while pointing out the lack of evidence that such actually happened. -- Infrogmation 21:59, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    The problem is that the article is still heavily POV with nonreliable sources, written like a blog entry, which Wikipedia is not. This is simply conspiracycruft. --Coredesat 21:08, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Merge a portion of global warming awareness-raising to [33] and also Merge the sourced portion of God's wrath back to main article as per style of [34]. The hurricane did spur discussion about global warming and how/why a deity might allow such a disaster to happen. Delete the rest. Canuckle 21:48, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
      • We can't merge and delete as that would be a GFDL violation. --Coredesat 21:08, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
        • Huh? Canuckle 21:24, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Keep While it certainly needs major cleanup, this could potentially become a very good article and has some content worth keeping. Jedibob5 00:53, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
      • Potentially anything could become a good article. However, the vast majority of this content is POV, and we don't keep POV things. --Coredesat 21:08, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
        • WP:NPOV#POV forks recommends "facts and major Points of View on a certain subject are treated in one article." If the majority of this content is POV, then clean it up with an eye to WP:Undue weight. And if the remaining minority is NPOV, fold it back into the main article. Canuckle 21:24, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Possibly keep a very weak keep because the present article is one of the more confused major WP articles I have seen--the first part discusses the general relationship between possible global warming and the increase in hurricanes, which is at least a rational hypothesis, though it has no specific relation to this specific hurricane. . the second discusses whether God brought it about in retaliation for the sins of New Orleans or the nation in general--a different type of hypothesis altogether, and not capable of being settled one way or another by human evidence. The third discusses whether some of the flooding was deliberate, yet a third completely different sort of theory that is at least capable of proof or refutation. This has to be divided and rewritten not to be a farce. DGG (talk) 01:35, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
      • Don't forget the "intentional weather manipulation with space rays" theory. The global warming stuff is becoming more mainstream, but at the time of the storm there were howls of protest and edit wars against including global warming in the main "Hurricane Katrina" article. Cheers! bd2412 T 22:47, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
    • Merge per Canuckle and possibly split per reasons by DGG. This is a bit of a "Jack of all trades" article. Some information is credible but a lot is crackpot. Thin Arthur 06:00, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Weak keep but I think it needs a major rewrite. Much of the article seems to give undue weight to fringe theories, but I do see some sources like The Guardian, Nature, TIME, CNN, and MSNBC. I think there should be an attempt to salvage the article based on any sources deemed reliable. We have other articles on alternative theories [35]. This article could be seen as a POV fork, although it may also just be a spinoff of the Hurricane Katrina article. Moving certain theories to this page instead of the Hurricane Katrina article might not be a good effort to represent a neutral point of view, although having this article could be seen as an attempt to represent views fairly. It seems like the Apollo Moon Landing hoax accusations article exists to debunk various theories. We have the articles Titanic alternative theories and 9/11 conspiracy theories. I think the rumors about the levees in New Orleans may be notable, as they were widely reported in the mainstream media in the U.S. It looks to me like some of these theories are significant and have been published in reliable sources. The title of the page "Alternative theories regarding Hurricane Katrina" could be seen as biased, but at least the word "conspiracy" isn't in the title. --Pixelface 13:46, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Keep, as long as article is maintained, and more effort is made to stress that these are not widely-accepted theories. I remember hearing about many of these on fairly mainstream media, they got the coverage and sparked the debate needed to be considered notable in my book, even though everyone knows that they were untrue. Just because something is crackpot doesn't mean it isn't encyclopaedic, per Pixelface's examples, and other stuff like Flat Earth Society and Christianity etc.. Jdcooper 14:59, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Comment I'm seeing a lot of keeps, that mainly come with recommendations to salvage the article and try to revive it. But looking at it's edit history, there doesn't seem to be much interest in the past couple of months in actually editing it, so I'm beginning to doubt why so many people are interested in it now, after editing interest has seriously dwindled down and the article still looks like crap. Maybe some of you folks that are pushing for it's revival to salvage it should be bold and make some of these changes yourselves. Dr. Cash 06:07, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
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    The result was delete as non-notable. Could have been speedy deleted under WP:CSD#A7. KrakatoaKatie

    [edit] Joseph William Bailey Hardman Medford

    Joseph William Bailey Hardman Medford (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) – (View AfD)

    Non-notable author who's only book was on his family history. Neither reference is a reliable source New England Review Me!/Go Red Sox! 06:15, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

    Delete These pages violate wikipedia's WP:NOT#DIR, particularly the section about genealogical entries and were created by User:JAYMEDINC, who is a member of the same family to which these pages refer. Anarchia 08:28, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
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    The result was Speedy Keep, withdrawn by nominator per evidence presented to me on my talk page. New England Review Me!/Go Red Sox! 15:33, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

    [edit] Mir Ghazan Marri

    Mir Ghazan Marri (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) – (View AfD)

    Been around since last October and still unsourced. Zero google news hits New England Review Me!/Go Red Sox! 06:03, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

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    The result was keep. Singularity 17:23, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

    [edit] Nkosi's Haven

    AfDs for this article:
    Articles for deletion/Nkosi's Haven
    Nkosi's Haven (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) – (View AfD)

    No assertion of notability. exactly one google news hit. New England Review Me!/Go Red Sox! 06:00, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

    • Keep per coverage from independent sources Corpx 06:47, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Keep As per Corpx. The number of news reports suggests it satsifies WP:NOTE. Anarchia 08:18, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Keep seems like a legitimate article. PatGallacher 10:04, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
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    The result was no consensus, particularly on how much information is needed to avoid being a crystal ball. There is good-faith disagreement here, and no clear overriding policy violations. — TKD::Talk 06:32, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

    [edit] Victorian general election, 2010

    Victorian general election, 2010 (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) – (View AfD)

    WP is not a crystal ball. Far too early. This was prod'ed but prod notice removed so brought here. Bduke 02:51, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

    Are these by-elections related to the 2010 election? The reference given makes no mention of 2010 at all. BTW, I've notified the original author of this debate. Kevin 03:44, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    Yes, they are related to the 2010 election - I've found another reference from the Herald Sun. -Malkinann 03:54, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    That link says nothing about the 2010 election. The by-elections now have nothing to do with the 2010 election. --Bduke 04:12, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    Those articles should be either a post-note to 2006, or a short article in their own right eg under Victorian by-elections, 2007, or an alternative such as Albert Park and Williamstown by-elections, 2007. This should only be done if the by-elections are themselves notable, but as they replace an outgoing premier and deputy premier they're not likely to be short of WP:RS coverage. Orderinchaos 04:20, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    ^^^Agreed. Timeshift 04:29, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Delete The by-elections replace outgoing members of the current parliament. They will have to stand for re-election in the 2010 election so the current by-elections have nothing to do with the 2010 election. This is a crystal ball article for an event which exists on a timetable only at this stage.Garrie 04:14, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

    *Delete. It seems clear that the upcoming by-election has no connection, and it is too soon for the 2010 election article. Kevin 04:33, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

    • Keep - The election is set on a fixed date a bit over three years away. I believe the article is worth keeping as parties will commit to policies should they win government. The article is the logical place to note these policies as part of an ongoing election campaign. It may only grow slowly during the pseudo-campaign, but people will use it as a reference point - the more often they do, the more often they will contribute to it. If we say that it is just too early to start the page, we don't do justice to the democratic process. George1966 04:38, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Keep but remove the 2007 by-elections. It's not too soon for a 2010 election as it is the next election scheduled at the end of the current fixed term. Per WP:CRYSTAL, "Individual scheduled or expected future events should only be included if the event is notable and almost certain to take place." Elections are notable and this one is (almost) certain to take place on an already known date. I don't think it violates WP:CRYSTAL as there is no undocumented speculation and no original research. The one that should be deleted is Victorian legislative election, 2010 as it is not part of the Victorian election template and contains original research. Dbromage [Talk] 05:02, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    Keep i agree. the date is certain and the event important enough to keep. put the by-elections in after they have been complete Kringle7 07 05:14, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Delete per WP:CRYSTAL. Only thing certain is the date, and I dont see why we need an article when only the date is known. Recreate when more info is available Corpx 06:46, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
      • Comment. Exactly which part of WP:CRYSTAL do you claim it violates? The policy does in fact say "Individual scheduled or expected future events should only be included if the event is notable and almost certain to take place." Dbromage [Talk] 06:58, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
        • It is certain to take place, as is United States presidential election, 2028, but I fail to see why we'd already make an index for it Corpx 07:02, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
          • Comment. Please read what WP:CRYSTAL actually says about future events. "Examples of appropriate topics include 2008 U.S. presidential election, and 2012 Summer Olympics. By comparison, the 2016 U.S. presidential election and 2036 Summer Olympics are not considered appropriate article topics because nothing can be said about them that is verifiable and not original research" Anyway, I've added more information already known about the 2010 election. Particularly notable is the use of mapping software for the first time to better predict the number of voters expected to attend each polling place, as a result of long queues in 2006. Thus the article meets WP:N, WP:V and WP:RS.Dbromage [Talk] 07:16, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
      • Is there any such information available for this election, other than the date? Corpx 07:18, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
      • Neutral While there is some material to write about, I'm not convinced the amount of material warrants this article Corpx 14:11, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Keep - as above (next election). —Preceding unsigned comment added by Fosnez (talk • contribs) 07:00, August 29, 2007 (UTC)
    • Delete per WP:CRYSTAL - nothing is known about this election other than the date and it will be held - nothing more can be said about the election that is verifiable and not original research. There is not even any preparation for the election, unlike say the US Presidential elections there is not a long lead up. Recreating the article in 2009 - two years from now would be plenty early enough.--Golden Wattle talk 07:18, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
      • Comment. Exactly which part of WP:CRYSTAL do you claim it violates? You might care to read the revised version of the article. More is known than the date. And of course there is preparation. It's not like the Victorian Electoral Commission sits twiddling its thumbs for 4 years between elections. Dbromage [Talk] 07:21, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
        • Response to comment - I have reread the article and appreciate the attempt to add additional info. However, as per Mattinbgn below I retain my opinion that the article should be deleted. Suggested recreation in two years time is not a reason to keep now. The additional information in the article is better placed in the article on the VEC. The fact that the VEC are not idle between elections (one would hope not) is not reason to have an article, rather it is a reason to add to the article on that body.--Golden Wattle talk 21:49, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
          • So exactly which part of WP:CRYSTAL do you claim it violates? Dbromage [Talk] 00:00, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
          • You are getting exceedingly boring with your repeated questions - it is not useful to keep restating the question when I feel I have already dealt with it - what part don't you understand. When I read By comparison, the 2016 U.S. presidential election and 2036 Summer Olympics are not considered appropriate article topics because nothing can be said about them that is verifiable and not original research. and only generic information is known about the item - in my view this article falls into that space. The bit in this article about how the VEC might or will respond belongs in the article about the VEC (and has now been placed there) - as has been said elsewhere it will not have been included in the article if it had been written closer to the date. We know there is an election to come, we know who will run it - this is not an encyclopaedia article at present - nothing more than the dates can be said about it. This is in my view only generic information. TThat generic information is already elsewhere in the wikipedia, including the article on the VEC and the article on State Elections in general (and was there in both cases even before this article was created.) As siad below I suggest a general article on Victorian elections might be interesting - especially considering the 2006 changes to dates--Golden Wattle talk 05:12, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Keep now that there is more than just the date. Kevin 07:24, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Keep An election is notable, whilst this election is a small period of time away, it is still notable. Twenty Years 08:10, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Keep This does not violate "Wikipedia is not a crystal ball", we also have an article on e.g. the next UK general election, the crucial issue is not the time away but whether you can write an article which is more than pure speculation. PatGallacher 10:15, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Delete no decent article can be maintained this far out from the election.--cj | talk 12:26, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Strong keep Agree with Dbromage [Talk]. Preparation is already in progress and it is verifiable. See point 1 of WP:CRYSTAL--Pheonix15 12:35, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Delete With all due respect to the contributors, there isn't much worth keeping in the article at present. The table shows the results of the last election, the details of the numbers of electorates and voting arrangements for each house are better dealt with in the Parliament of Victoria article and to be honest the use of mapping software seems to me of limited interest and relevance (although it may be of some use in the Victorian Electoral Commission article). It would be unlikely to make it into the article on the election if there was more relevant content available. Delete for now and recreate closer to the election when a broader range of material can be sourced. -- Mattinbgn\ talk 12:51, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    "Not much worth keeping" is not quite the same as "nothing worth keeping". At least we know the exact date, that's more than we know about the next UK general election, which has an article. Also we should be cautious about using WP:CRYSTAL to delete an article which almost certainly will be re-created within the next couple of years. PatGallacher 14:02, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    The WP:NOTINTERESTING argument doesn't fly. Dbromage [Talk] 00:00, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Delete Agree with Mattinbgn and others' reasoning - there is absolutely nothing one could say about the next election which would not be purely speculation at this point, other than the date. Orderinchaos 13:36, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
      • Comment. Would you care to point out exactly which part of the article other than the date is purely speculation? Dbromage [Talk] 00:00, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
        • For starters:
          1. It *will* take place on that date. bduke has addressed this issue in more depth.
          2. There will be 88 electorates on that date.
          3. Technology will not change between now and 2010, and there will be no state elections between now and 2010 in other states which can trial ideas (for better or worse) that the VEC may decide to use, or not use, as a result. Orderinchaos 04:40, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
          • How is this unsourced speculation? Sources are cited. Dbromage [Talk] 05:17, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
            • Just because a media outlet or an individual at the VEC is doing the random speculating, does not mean that we should necessary follow. We're an encyclopaedia, not a news service. Orderinchaos 06:21, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Strong Keep Notable but it has to be cleaned up a bit, and set to wiki standard. IamMcLovin 20:03, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Weak delete. I proposed deletion, but once my objection was considered and it was clear editors wanted a chance to have some time to improve the article, it was my hope we could hold off on AfD for several weeks to give those editors a chance. The nominator had every right to start this AfD, though. Since that's where we are at, I have to agree that WP:CRYSTAL suggests an article with this level of detail isn't appropriate for the project at this point. Erechtheus 00:07, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Comment The part that talks about how even events that are almost certain to occur shouldn't be written about when you can say little more than the obvious about them. We know what the first named storm in the north Atlantic will be in 2009. We have every reason to expect there would be at least one named storm in any year. We know that storm would have to have winds of a certain sustained speed in order to exist. Even given all of that, an article is not appropriate. I'd suggest what is in the article now is in line with what could be said about that named storm. Erechtheus 00:24, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Comment. Where does it say that events that are almost certain to occur shouldn't be written about when you can say little more than the obvious about them? It does say that anticipated events must be verifiable and scheduled or expected future events should only be included if the event is notable and almost certain to take place. Elections do not fall within the predetermined list or a systematic pattern of names such as cyclones. Dbromage [Talk] 01:51, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Comment Based on what you say, would it be your position that an article about the 2014 general election would also be appropriate at this time? Erechtheus 02:15, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Comment. It comes down to common sense. 2014 is not the next election. However based on the examples given in WP:CRYSTAL, an article could be created for the 2014 election as soon as the 57th Parliament is elected. There are no specific criteria for what should and shouldn't be included in Category:Future elections and there is a template for future elections (the article is so tagged). Note that there is also a Category:2010 elections. Dbromage [Talk] 02:42, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Comment In that case, you and I just aren't reading WP:CRYSTAL to say the same thing. It appears as though you are suggesting that once iteration x of an event has happened, as long as the event is notable, iteration x+1 of the event is entitled to have an article. I don't believe it is supposed to be read that way. I think the examples cited were chosen because they are topics that are obviously very well covered in the press on a global basis. The Commonwealth of Virginia holds statewide elections for every seat in the General Assembly once every four years. It next happens in early November of this year. You seem to be suggesting that the moment the polls close, it would be appropriate to start an article about the 2011 elections. I don't think that would be appropriate absent an appropriate nucleus of reliable sources discussing that election. I don't see that for the Victorian general election, 2010 at the present moment. Erechtheus 02:50, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Each article can be dealt with on its merits if and when it is created. The introduction to WP:CRYSTAL says "Wikipedia is not a collection of unverifiable speculation." Which part of this article is unverifiable speculation? Indeed where does it say events "shouldn't be written about when you can say little more than the obvious about them". Dbromage [Talk] 03:03, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
    • CommentThat's the inference I draw from the way the part of CRYSTAL dealing with the predetermined list or systematic pattern of names. I would submit that this type of election article qualifies because there is a predetermined list of names for these elections. They come in four year intervals. I take it you read item 1 and item 2 in WP:CRYSTAL to be mutually exclusive. I do not. It's really all about the differing ways the two of us are interpreting that portion of the policy. Erechtheus 03:13, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
    • WP:CRYSTAL item 2 quite clearly deals with "a predetermined list or a systematic pattern of names, preassigned to future events or discoveries" and the examples given are cyclones and large numbers. Item 1 deals with scheduled or expected future events and the examples given are elections and the Olympic Games. This article clearly meets all the requirements of scheduled or expected future events. Dbromage [Talk] 03:58, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Comment I submit that this article qualifies as both. It's certainly an event, but the article also has a systematic pattern of names. I could name the next 25 articles in this series. They'd be "Victorian general election 2014", "Victorian general election 2018", "Victorian general election 2022", "Victorian general election 2026", and on and on. Erechtheus 04:15, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
    • I submit that you're wrong. Elections are covered in point 1. "Victorian general election, 2010" is not a preassigned name in the same way that Tropical Cyclone Alex is a preassigned name. "XXXX geneal election, YYYY" is simply an article title convention adopted by Wikiproject Australian Politics. The election and this article about it quite clearly meets all the requirements of scheduled or expected future events, is about a notable event, is verifiable, cites reliable sources and does not contain any unsourced speculation or original research. Dbromage [Talk] 05:13, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Comment. I nominated this because the discussion at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Australian politics#Victorian general election, 2010 suggested it. However, let us look at this in some detail. Do we really know an election will be held in 2010? In the normal course of events, yes, we do. However, what if there was a crisis and members of the government crossed the floor and defeated the government on a vote of confidence. Would that not lead to an earlier election? That election would be for the normal term, would it not? Or am I wrong about the way elections work in Victoria? Further, is there a possibility that the number of seats will alter before 2010 when boundaries are redistributed? Again, probably not, but are we certain? This article does contain speculation. My other concern is that if this is kept, we will all forget about it and we may not have enough people watching it to keep vandalism away. Everything that is in the article now is already in the Victorian Electoral Commission article, or could be. It is just too early for it. --Bduke 00:46, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
      • Somebody has provided a ref for the last Saturday in November and that ref explains why - doesn't say what would happen in a crisis but I think the Governor just hauls in another leader to form a government - I don't htink they go to the polls. Fixed terms were introduced in 2006 as per Electoral systems of the Australian states and territories#Victoria so it hasn't been tested there yet. It seems to me that we need an article on Victorian elections more than we need this one at present! Or as mentioned above the VEC article could do with some work. --Golden Wattle talk 01:25, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Comment. This is the best solution, as long as somebody is prepared to put in the effort. Let's create a page on Victorian elections, put in all of the important information from past elections, include the date for the 2010 election at the top, and leave a link to this discussion in the talk page. Then (as I see it) the debate here is satisfied on all counts - a 2010 election page can be re-created when there is more information available. We could redirect the 2010 page to the page for all elections. It also means that only relevant information from the past three or four elections is included in the main article - so you don't have to trawl through each election page (1999, 2002 etc) to find worthwhile information. I'm still against deletion - but if this proposal gains consensus, I'll go with it instead. George1966 01:50, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Comment. Articles about scheduled or expected future events only violate WP:CRYSTAL if there is unsourced speculation. Where is the unsourced speculation in this article? If the number of seats changes before 2010, these details can be updated and sources if and when that happens. This article passes WP:N, WP:V, WP:RS and has not been proven to violate WP:CRYSTAL in any way. Dbromage [Talk] 02:04, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Comment. I agree - but I'm trying to find some middle ground that is acceptable to all. George1966 02:13, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
    My argument is that it can't be improved, so inherently violates the above. Also, I think any closing admin would note the number of times you have commented in this debate and questioned pretty much every delete voter. Orderinchaos 04:36, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
    By what stretch of the imagination do you content that it can't be improved? That implies it can never be improved, which is not the meaning of WP:DP. It quite clearly can be expanded as more information becomes available, which will certainly be the case as the event will happen. WP:NOEFFORT says "an article should be assessed based on whether it has potential for expansion". Dbromage [Talk] 05:13, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
    No stretch of the imagination required. It will sit as a stub basically in its present state for almost 3 years, and may create a precedent for other similarly meaningless articles to be created elsewhere. Orderinchaos 06:36, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
    A hypothetical WP:NOEFFORT at some stage in the future is not a reason to delete it now. The edit histories of other election articles show a non-trivial amount of editing between the time they are created and the start of the actual campaign, for example Australian federal election, 2007 has been under more or less constant editing since October 2004 (it was created only 2 days after the 2004 election). The 2007 NSW election article had non-trivial editing for 14 months before the actual election. This is not an WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS argument, it's a "don't underestimate the Wikipedia community" argument. Dbromage [Talk] 07:10, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
    • This is correct. The election dates for the Parliament are fixed in law. Once elected, whoever holds a majority in the Legislative Assembly is invited to form a Government. If at some later stage during the term of the Parliament some members cross the floor, or there are enough by-elections to change the makeup of the LA, the Governor can invite the new majority to form a new Government. But that does not affect the term of the Parliament and the date of the general election does not change. The 57th Parliament will be dissolved by the Governor on 2 November 2010 regardless of who is in Government at the time or how many times the Government changes during the term. Dbromage [Talk] 05:30, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
    Not completely true. If a government is unable to function (i.e. is constitutionally deadlocked), then necessarily, an election would have to be called. This happens anywhere in the world. Also, the date can be altered due to major events, natural disasters and all manner of other things. Just because a piece of legislation gives a date does not change any of these factors. Orderinchaos 06:22, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
    SAnd of course the legislation could be changed. But as things currently stand and as cited by sources, the article is factually correct and does not violate WP:CRYSTAL. Dbromage [Talk] 06:29, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
    Exactly (re legislation) - any government at any time has the option of repealing, or modifying, fixed term legislation. I have modified the article to account for the slightly uncertain nature of the predictions. Orderinchaos 06:32, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
    The edits are reasonable. In the unlikely event the Act is changed, the article can be too. Dbromage [Talk] 06:46, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Strong keep and do not redirect, ever. This is not crystal ball gazing. The political science lesson in this debate is interesting but not really relevant. Thin Arthur 06:02, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Following my earlier comment and those from others, the appropriate wording is "The Legislative Assembly has a fixed four-year term. Barring exceptional circumstances, elections are held on the last Saturday in November every four years (see Constitution Act 1975 s.38 and s.38A)". Note the "barring exceptional circumstances" which is not mentioned for NSW. The source is Research Note no. 14 2006–07 Timetable for the next Australian elections as at 8 December 2006 from the Parliamentary Library. I believe that Orderinchaos is correct that an election can be held if nobody can get the support of the house to govern, but I do not have a source for it. The phrase "barring exceptional circumstances" should be added to the article. If it is, I have no strong views. I still think it would be better to wait to have a specific article on the 2010 election and put the material elsewhere, so I am not withdrawing the nomination. --Bduke 09:10, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Keep This is the next election which is almost certain to happen and there is verifiable information on the date already. Generally believe that having an article on the next election is a good idea as soon as the previous election has taken place. Davewild 18:37, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
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    The result was delete due to the consensus that this has problems with original research, reliable sourcing, and being a loose association of items. — TKD::Talk 06:09, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

    [edit] Ecumenopolis in popular culture

    Ecumenopolis in popular culture (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) – (View AfD)

    Trivial unsourced cluttered list of mentions. RobJ1981 05:02, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

    • Delete isnt it original research to put these mentions under "Ecumenopolis" ? Corpx 06:45, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Keep, while I agree that the list needs a good cleanup, I don't believe this is original research and provides a useful resource to reference this new word against (I hadn't heard of it before) - Fosnez 07:03, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Keep, I am with Fosnez, just need a clean up and provide references and notes if possible. Carlosguitar 12:03, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Delete - in the absence of reliable sources identifying each of these as ecumenopolises this is OR, and it's also a directory of loosely associated items. Otto4711 12:53, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Keep, per Fosnez. --Le Grand Roi des CitrouillesTally-ho! 14:09, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Delete, violates WP:V, WP:OR, WP:RS and WP:TRIVIA. Corvus cornix 18:42, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Delete This is a one-line dicdef and a trivia section, both of which are clear violations of policy — iridescent (talk to me!) 19:37, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Delete This article is just as long as the original subject. It's barely a notable term to begin with, it could easily be merged and widdled. Dannycali 22:05, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Delete. As it currently stands, none of these cities are in fact backed up with citations demonstrating either (A) that they do what is claimed or (B) that they are referred to with this word. Given that there's a list of five or so in the main article on the term, I think that's really all we need. BigHaz - Schreit mich an 05:49, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
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    The result was delete. Singularity 17:16, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

    [edit] Chevrolet Corvette in popular culture

    Chevrolet Corvette in popular culture (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) – (View AfD)

    A very trivial, unsourced and cluttered list of mentions isn't encyclopedic. RobJ1981 04:50, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

    • Neutral It could be easily kept if it was well-sourced. I just added {more references} tag. -- GarbageCollection - !Collect 05:28, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Delete per list of loosely associated items. An encyclopedia is not the place to document each time a particular car was seen in a movie Corpx 06:44, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Keep - but the list needs a big trim, might a suggest a chainsaw? Fosnez 07:04, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Delete - for all the same reasons that similar lists for the Mini Cooper and the Citroen CS were deleted. This is a directory of loosely associated topics, a trivia dump seeking to capture any appearance of a particular make and model of car. Otto4711 12:54, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Keep per Fosnez and also because my students told me that they find these "in popular culture" articles among the most interesting and special aspects of Wikipedia that really makes this site stand out above other encyclopedic projects. Can these articles be improved? Sure! Everything can be improved, so let's focus on improving rather than destroying. Sincerely, --Le Grand Roi des CitrouillesTally-ho! 14:36, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    • A good exercise for your students would be to have them read WP:NOT and try to formulate arguments in favor of this article that address the policy problems with this and so many other pop culture articles. These appeals to emotion and teary-eyed comments about how "special" these lists are don't answer the objections. I would also note that by saying "per Fosnez" you are offering no argument for retention because Fosnez offered no argument for retention. A bare keep comment carries no weight in an AFD discussion because AFD is not a vote. Otto4711 17:05, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    I'll run the idea by the classroom coordination people to see what they think. Best, --Le Grand Roi des CitrouillesTally-ho! 16:10, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
    • Delete, violates WP:V, WP:OR, WP:RS and WP:TRIVIA, and Le Grand Roi des Citrouilles's comment violates WP:ILIKEIT. Corvus cornix 18:43, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Delete Per reasoning of other users, is total trivia junk. Every vehicle pratically has been in "popular culture" many times. Dannycali 22:12, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Delete as yet another one of those "I see a [X] in this movie/video game/music video!" lists, which are pretty much by definition loosely linked and indiscriminate trivia. That they're interesting and whatnot is, of course, no reason to keep any articles like this. BigHaz - Schreit mich an 05:51, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Delete per Corvus Cornix and Corpx. I'm the one that moved this stuff out of the Corvette article, where it took up a sizable fraction of the overall article. Sorry for that... I didn't realize it at the time, but now I see that I should been bold and just deleted the content altogether.—Mrand T-C 16:41, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
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    The result was delete. No sources to verify claims of "award-winning", fails WP:BIO and WP:NOTFILM. KrakatoaKatie 16:03, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

    [edit] Andi Reiss

    Andi Reiss (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) – (View AfD)

    Apparently created by the article's subject, a director with writing/directing credits to one film (another supposed to be in production). IMDb entries on subject[36] & film[37] are essentially empty. Some claims to award & working with notable figures in film made in the article, but unsubstantiated. On the face of it, not clearly and sufficiently notable per WP:BIO or WP:NOTFILM. The COI aspect also comes into play. cjllw ʘ TALK 04:38, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

    • Delete Gnews turns up one trivial hit. Online coverage is sparse, although Cargo did play several film festivals. I can't find any awards won, and has only made one feature film. Subject may get there in the future, but doesn't currently meet notability requirements. Horrorshowj 23:44, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
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    The result was merge and redirect to body modification (or could consider redirected to body integrity identity disorder with consensus of involved editors). MastCell Talk 17:55, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

    [edit] Body nullification

    Body nullification (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) – (View AfD)

    Unreferenced minor variant on Body modification; what little content is varied could be merged into that article. The majority of the slightly over 600 google hits for this term are Wikipedia mirrors. This article has remained unreferenced since its inception in 2003, despite tagging for references in July 2006. Risker 04:32, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

    • Delete unless reliable sources giving coverage to this term/practice are found Corpx 06:43, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Delete - lack of sources Fosnez 07:06, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

    Delete, unattributed. Carlosguitar 12:11, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

    • Comment Yuk. People really do this? Nick mallory 13:30, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Keep or Merge into Body integrity identity disorder and Body modification. As the nominator already suggests merging, I want to point out that the process of merging articles does not involve deleting parent articles, but instead redirecting them to the merged article. Deleting after a merge removes article and author history, thereby violating the GFDL. In addition, the topic is (via Google) not only supported by Wikipedia mirror, but also by other sources: [38][39][40] --Cpt. Morgan (Reinoutr) 14:24, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
      • Comment: I am getting a virus alert when I check the first reference you have indicated above so of course won't even open it let alone use it as a reference, which then leaves only two references from a single source, BMEzine. If this is a notable enough paraphilia to be included in another article, I have no problems with it being merged, but I have no interest in doing it myself and do genuinely doubt it is notable. Please feel free if you think it is worth keeping. Risker 14:48, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
        • It is a word document containing a previously web-published article on body modification, that is probably the reason its triggered. I have now found the proper (non .DOC) weblink for same ref: [41] --Cpt. Morgan (Reinoutr) 18:07, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Delete Wikipedia has more than enough spam from these freaks. --EAEB 14:32, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
      • Could you please explain how having "more than enough spam from these freaks" is a proper reason to delete an article on a valid, existing concept? --Cpt. Morgan (Reinoutr) 17:47, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
      • Yea that isn't a valid reason for deleting the article Jaranda wat's sup 00:28, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Comment, I added references to the article (3 new ones and one from above). --Cpt. Morgan (Reinoutr) 18:02, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    You so obviously have not looked at the actual references I added to the article. Didn't I just state that they were new ones (in order words, different from the ones above). For your convenience, here are the references I also added to the article:
    --Cpt. Morgan (Reinoutr) 19:32, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    Actually, yes, he probably did. In order, they are:
    • A brief, unreferenced dicdef at the end of an article on a completely different subject.
    • An unreferenced dicdef
    • A self published book
    • An essentially self published article that mentions the term but does not even describe it.
    I am hard pressed to say that any of these "references" would meet the requirements of WP:V. Risker 22:57, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    Ofcourse he didn't. He was obviously referring to the earlier links, which indeed include "user submitted writing" and a "wiki page", just as he is calling them. In addition, I disagree with your interpretation of these references:
    • The article is not on a completely different subject, it is about (another form of) unusual sexual behavior and includes some other exampes, including this one.
    • Definition is from BMEzine, which make a perfect source. Do we now also require our references to be referenced?
    • I don't know if the book is self published, I could not find that information, but I will take your word for it. But, it is a book on body modification and it includes the term
    • The term is used, explained (although not completely correct).
    I'll refrain from commenting hereafter. --Cpt. Morgan (Reinoutr) 06:31, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
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    The result was Keep per WP:SNOW, near-unanimous voting. Non-admin closure JForget 22:47, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

    [edit] Brainwashing 101

    AfDs for this article:
    Articles for deletion/Brainwashing 101 Articles for deletion/Brainwashing 101 (2nd nomination)
    Brainwashing 101 (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) – (View AfD)

    Very few notable sources that discuss this work, only returns 300 Google hits, only 46 minute long "film" David Shankbone 04:12, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

    • Note, I have notified the participants of the previous AfD, one of whom was a main contributor to the article. The nominator of that AfD is no longer with us, so I did not notify that editor. Earlier contributors appear to be inactive. - Crockspot 05:19, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Delete as nom. This film only returns 300 Google hits. It was nominated for deletion before, but it was apparently seen as in bad faith because it was nominated by an SPA. Fails almost all guidelines for notability to have its own article. Most of the sources simply mention the film, but don't discuss it; such as a brief note that it is being shown at an (unnotable) film festival. A possible merge with Evan Coyne Maloney may be in order. Although the New York Sun, a newspaper with a circulation of 150,000 in a city of 18,000,000, is somewhat notable, the rest of the sources are all Bucknell University student groups who talk about it because there was a minor ruckus. The few notable sources dug up in the first AfD ring more of "even of a broken clock is right twice a day" than anything about a quirky little filmlet that has had an impact anywhere, with all of its 300 Google hits. The Chronicle "blurb" doesn't even mention the film, although presumably the paid version talks about it somewhere; and The Times article from 2005 is interesting, though in retrospect this clearly has proven to be an unnotable 46 minute film short. --David Shankbone 04:12, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Strong keep. Google return is actually 11,000 hits. In addition to the sources I added prior to this nom, there were several others I found from Hollywood Reporter, Guardian, Weekly Standard, and Opinion Journal. I'm sure if I broke a sweat, I could find many more. Clearly notable enough, and the article can probably be expanded. Last AfD was in May, why now all of a sudden? - Crockspot 05:04, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Actually, unless musings about writing to Mormon friends qualify (found on only the third page of hits), there are quite a few people out there who use the phrase "brainwashing 101" that have nothing to do with the film, which is why I added the director's name, since the film isn't really discussed without mentioning his name. Your links mostly mention the film in passing, with it meriting one or two sentences. This makes it notable? --David Shankbone' 05:27, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Notable enough. I think your search parameters were too restrictive. Searching with just Maloney increases the hit count to almost 1,600. - Crockspot 05:41, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    • That's not true, it's actually less at 274. Crockspot, you are Googling and looking at the first page and that number, which doesn't factor our "repeats" or pages where there is simply a mention of the film on one website about 100 times, or so. So far, you haven't really shown how this is notable, and if anything, seem to be showing how it is unnotable. --David Shankbone 11:07, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Yes, because as I explained, you only look at the first page. In reality, there are only 274 hits. You have to go to the last page of hits to see unique pages. Usually if you can reach a last page, the subject isn't particularly notable by this measure. --David Shankbone 12:11, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Oh really?[42],[43] The unique results are only calculated on the first 1,000 hits, not over all hits. So the actual number of hits for this page is between 300 and 800. Fram 14:50, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    • That was actually an education for me - I had no idea. So, there goes that. I did a strike through --David Shankbone 17:15, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Comment The only part of WP:NF that seems relevant here is, "The film is widely distributed and has received full length reviews by two or more nationally known critics.". I suggest the discussion focus on whether or not the film is "widely distributed", and whether or not it has been reveiwed by a "nationally known critics". No opinion myself. Mark Chovain 05:51, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Keep - ample sources as per Crockspot - Fosnez 07:07, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Keep. Crockspot is right, it has enough sources. Fits into WP:N just fine. --Dennis The Tiger (Rawr and stuff) 08:33, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Keep - plenty of references from reliable and big name sources. Notable. Ben W Bell talk 12:24, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Strong Keep This article cites a sufficient number of references to establish notability. I think there is a POV reason behind this AFD. --EAEB 14:33, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Keep and Speedy close per WP:SNOW. Nothing has changed since May except that the film has gotten more publicity since then. And the context of the nominator's last few hundred edits put the nomination in a questionable light, and I request an admin warn about disruptive POV-pushing. THF 16:59, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    LOL - request away, although an admin is likely to WP:AGF, as they should. --David Shankbone 17:15, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    • And I don't think this is a Snow issue, and the AfD has only been open for 12 hours. Let it run its full course. It's just annoying you; WP:COOL, THF, WP:COOL. Stop taking everything personally. Really: it's not all about you. --David Shankbone 17:19, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    • I have to say that I had my doubts about this nomination, in terms of it being a WP:POINT violation related to other disputes that you are involved in currently. But that is unrelated to my reasons for supporting a keep, and therefore why I did not mention it initially. For example, on a biography related to this article, you admit on the talk page that the subject is indeed notable, yet you placed a notability tag on the article within a day of making that statement. Perhaps you have perfectly valid reasons for these actions, but those reasons are not readily apparent. - Crockspot 17:34, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

    I wonder why the speedy close was reverted? I see nothing improper about it. If you look at the first AfD, it was also closed speedy, and early. There are no delete votes save the nomination. Why waste everyone's time here? This is an obvious snowball, and no, not that kind of snowball. - Crockspot 18:34, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

    In twelve hours we have a snowball, after you canvassed the original keepers? I don't think so. It's a barely notable 46 minute piece of propaganda, that has since been made into a feature length piece of propaganda that is notable. Delete or merge is merited. Casting doubt on my good faith only serves as a strawman, but I don't mind. Why the need to speedy close instead of allowing it to run its course? If it's a keeper, it's a keeper. No big thang. --David Shankbone 18:43, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    It doesn't affect my psyche one way or the other. Bear in mind though that there was an early close of an AfD last week that was immediately reopened, but because of some technicality, all votes after the close and reopen were invalidated, and the AfD was forced closed. I can't say that I understand the exact reasons, but it might be worth looking into. - Crockspot 18:53, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    If you want to look into it, you are welcome to do so. Since a non-admin closed, and was immediately reverted, I don't think there is really much of an issue; if that was the case, any old editor could force a hand by just closing. Doesn't seem very wiki, does it? Nah... --David Shankbone 18:59, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    I had to dig back a few hundred edits, it was Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of inventions shown on American Inventor (second nomination), which was reopened again, so not sure what is going on there. - Crockspot 20:33, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    Doesn't sound like this has anything to do with this AfD. --David Shankbone 20:38, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
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    The result was delete. Consensus is that this list is irredeemably unencyclopedic — in particular, a violation of WP:NOT#DIR. — TKD::Talk 05:42, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

    [edit] List of Aristotle University of Thessaloniki faculties, departments and laboratories

    List of Aristotle University of Thessaloniki faculties, departments and laboratories (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) – (View AfD)

    Not suitable topic for an encyclopedia. If people want to see a list of 'faculties, departments and laboratories' at a university, they should go to the universities webpages. Anarchia 04:05, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

    • Delete. This is suitable info for a homepage.K14 04:33, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Merge and redirect to University of Thessaloniki. Most are external links. Wikipedia is not a directory: WP:NOT#DIR. -- GarbageCollection - !Collect 05:38, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Delete per WP is not a directory of this kind of information Corpx 06:42, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Keep Before creating this article, I asked other experienced members of wikipedia (from WikiProject Universities) and they gave me some tips on how to improve the article about Aristotle University of Thessaloniki. One of those was to eliminate all lists found inside the article (eg the list about the faculties and departments) and create a new article about them. This is what I did and now my article is nominated for deletion.
    Furthermore, I would like to add that it is very common for university articles to provide lists of faculties, departments, laboratories, people, members, presidents and so on as seperate articles. For exaple see the following pages:
    List of Massachusetts Institute of Technology departments and laboratories, List of Dublin City University faculties, schools, research centres and laboratories, List of University of Cambridge members, List of Imperial College London people, List of Towson University presidents, List of University of Southern California people, List of University of Washington student organizations, and many more!! Are you willing to delete these articles as well?
    I personally think that all these articles, including the one we are talking about, are suitable material for an encyclopedia. Yesterday I spent 5 hours gathering all the information found in the nominated article and now I feel deeply disappointed. Maybe I shouldn't have listened to the experienced members' advice... -Chggr 06:52, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    I do understand your feelings of frustration, especially given the time you have put into this and the fact that you were following experienced advice. Sometimes people establish patterns of behaviour and it takes a while to realise that they are not appropriate. I think that this is what is happening here. As I wrote briefly above, lists like this one do not contain information that is suitable for an encyclopedia. When editing wikipedia, we are recommended to consider "When you wonder what should or should not be in an article, ask yourself what a reader would expect to find under the same heading in an encyclopedia." I do not understand why anyone would come to Wikipedia looking for information such as this rather than looking at the universities webpages. It violates WP:NOT#REPOSITORY as it consists mainly of links. It violates WP:NOTE as there is no claim to any degree of notability. The fact that there are other pages the same as yours does nothing to alter these facts. And, yes, if consensus is that this article should be deleted, I will nominate some of them for deletion. Anarchia 08:09, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    Well I think that a complete article about a university should contain a list of its faculties, its departments and its laboratories. Otherwise it wouldn't be complete. It is essential for the reader of an article about a university to know which faculties, departments and laboratories this university has. I think that a complete list of all this information cannot be integrated into the university's article because it would make it boring and messy. Thus for this purpose the creation of a new page is necessary and that's what I did. Any user who doesn't want to view all this information will simply not follow the link. On the other hand, if the user wants to see if the university has a certain laboratory (eg. phonetics lab), then this page is very important to him and would save him from a lot of searching. You said "I do not understand why anyone would come to Wikipedia looking for information such as this rather than looking at the universities webpages". It's a fact that most information in any of wikipedia's articles can be found if one searches the internet. This of course doesn't mean that we should close down wikipedia!!! Returning back to the subject of interest, the fact that each faculty, department and laboratory name is an external link to its official page, makes the page even more useful to someone who wants to retrieve more information about it. But if you want, I can remove all those links so that that WP:NOT#REPOSITORY is not violated. But according to my opinion, such an action will make the page less useful. Moreover, the WP:NOTE violation you pointed out is pretty subjective. I think that the article is notable, otherwise I wouldn't have created it in the first place. And I was prepared to add more information to the article, more sources, etc, but within 14 hours from its creation, you nominated it for deletion. I think you should have waited to see what comes out of it and then nominate it. Finally, the article List of Massachusetts Institute of Technology departments and laboratories, which is pretty much the same case, has been there from 22 November 2006 and nobody has nominated it for deletition or had any objections to it. Personally I think that both articles should stay. I would like to point out that it is common practice to remove all listings from university articles and create new pages to hold this content. If you start nominating all those auxiliary pages, you have a lot of work to do. --Chggr 09:32, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    My view is the same. I am only one person, however. I am happy to wait and see what other people think, and will definitely do so before nominating any more pages for deletion. Anarchia 09:49, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Keep The article was created for the best of reasons, is well sourced and entirely legitimate. Nick mallory 12:00, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Delete While I agree that the article is well organized, I don't think WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS is a valid defense against the claim that that Wikipedia is not a repository of external links. It's not that I doubt the notability of the University or it's departments, just that I don't see any grounds in the guidelines or policies for keeping the article, since it seems to fail WP:NOT. (Which is a shame given the the work that went into it.) --B figura (talk) 21:19, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    As I said before, I think that an article about a university is not complete if it doesn't provide a list of its faculties and departments. The wikipedia visitor must be informed about the scientific areas a university deals with. I believe you will agree on that. It's also a fact that a complete listing of all this information inside the university article makes it boring, unclean and very long. So what I did is simply to transfer all this information to an new page, following the tips some experienced users from WikiProject University gave me. This is my main argument and I think nobody from the "delete side" has answered to it yet. It is a pretty reasonable arguement! Furthermore, I don't understand why this new page should be deleted, provided the fact that it is very common for university articles to seperate such information (about people, departments, presidents and so on) and create new pages to hold it (see the links I gave before, and there are many many more!). It's not about two or three cases. The majority of university articles follow this practice, so this arguement is not simply a WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS arguement. Moreover, I don't understand why you think that this article violates WP:NOT#REPOSITORY. If you think that because it has many links, I can remove them so that the article satisfies you. But I believe that it will be less useful to the wikipedia user. The fact that it has many links, doesn't automaticaly justify a WP:NOT#REPOSITORY violation. Personally I don't think that it is a link repository. I think that it provides a listing of all university's faculties, departments and laboratories and for some of them it also provides and external link. The user who wants to search for further information about a laboratory for example will follow the link to the main page of the lab. If all these links are deleted, then the wikipedia user will have to search on Google in order to find the main page of a lab and thus spend valuable energy and time. Sorry if I am getting boring, but I'm trying here to defend an article on which I spent more than 5 hours of valuable time and I don't see why it is not legitimate. –Chggr 06:27, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Comment I'm not really convinced that it's necessary to have an entire article devoted to listing departments, unless those departments are so notable that they have their own articles. If there's a policy/guideline/essay that says otherwise, let me know though. (I can't comment on the claim that a "majority of schools have such a page", other than to say that the first two Uni's I checked (Princeton and Harvard) don't have equivalent pages). As for why it's a repository of links, it's because the page contains nothing but a list of (mainly) external links. I'm not saying that it isn't useful, just that if someone did want a list of departments for the Uni, then google would probably take them here. Wikipedia isn't a directory, so there's no need to comprehensively list out all the departments/labs, unless a reasonable number of them have wikipedia articles. (Such as the research tab here). All that said though, I'll be interested to see what the consensus is, since I think it could affect other university sites. --Bfigura (talk) 19:27, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
    In my previous comments, I just said that it is very very common for university articles to remove all listings (of people, alumni, presidents and of course faculties labs and departments) and create a new page to hold this content. About the two articles you mentioned (Princeton and Harvard), well, Princeton does have a List of Princeton University people. Furthermore, I will agree with you that Aristotle university provides a web page with all its faculties and Departments. But it doesn't provide a web page listing all its laboratories. That is the real information found inside the nominated article and which took me at list 5 hours to gather. Finally you mentioned the MIT Template, saying that "there's no need to comprehensively list out all the departments/labs, unless a reasonable number of them have wikipedia articles". I looked at the MIT Template and found out that the majority of articles listed in the template are actually link repositories. For example: MIT School of Architecture and Planning, MIT School of Engineering, MIT School of Humanities, Arts, and Social Sciences and so on. Chggr 06:33, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
    As above, see WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS. This is not a good argument. Anarchia 06:45, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Delete this article is not encyclopedic. Argos'Dad 01:49, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
    • Delete. What about this is encyclopedic? The departments and laboratories, if encyclopedic, can be simply included in the University article. Vegaswikian 02:08, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
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    The result was delete. — TKD::Talk 16:07, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

    [edit] I Broke It, I'll Fix It

    I Broke It, I'll Fix It (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs)

    Non-notable country song which missed the top 40, artist of song does not have a Wiki article. --Caldorwards4 03:51, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

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    The result was keep due to sufficient reliable secondary sources. — TKD::Talk 05:09, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

    [edit] Bada Bing

    Bada Bing (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) – (View AfD)

    This article about a fictional bar in The Sopranos, and the article does not show notability through reliable secondary sources, and functions mostly as a plot summary. I proded this article, it was later redirected to The Sopranos, and the article was then un-redirected, so I am listing here to gain a consensus. Phirazo 03:52, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

    • Keep though I don't object to a redirect per se, the bar is in fact notable, both in the fictional work and in real life. In fact, it's a real bar, and the recent finale of the series has lead to a well-noted auction of the furnishings. [44]. [45]. [46]. I'm not sure that a redirect to the name of the real place is advisable, but there's no real question of notability on its own here. FrozenPurpleCube 04:38, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Keep as per FrozenPurpleCube - Fosnez 07:08, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Keep, prime example of filmed location having real-world significance. --Dhartung | Talk 08:49, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Delete or Redirect. It's a fictional strip club. Note that it has no references -- that's because it's not notable. An article about a building would include the history; who built it, the architecture, and so on. An article about a business would include information about its profits, owners, history, and so on. None of that is available for The Bing because it's fictional. -- Mikeblas 14:11, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    It had no references because nobody has bothered to add any. It happens. However, I added some just for some recent events. Whether or not there are references showing its further details is silly, no particular content is required to make an article on something. In addition, everything you're asking about *is* applicable to the actual club where it is located. Somebody, could, if desired add that information. It wouldn't be unreasonable. FrozenPurpleCube 14:38, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Keep Above and beyond the club's significance in the show, the club has received worldwide media attention in the past several weeks for its role in the Sopranos. The reliable and verifiable sources provided satisfy the Wikipedia:Notability standard. Alansohn 18:23, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Keep due to popularity as catchphrase. Has now entered OED. [47]. Canuckle 21:27, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
      • Comment The article is about a fictional bar, not the catchphrase. They are two completely different things. --Phirazo 17:04, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
        • My apologies for lack of clarity. I thought editors would read the reference provided which clearly states that the series -- including the club -- were responsible for a real-world impact of popularizing the catchphrase to the extent that it was added to Oxford English Dictionary. As this and other sources and claims for notability have been added to the article to answer your sourcing and notability concerns in the nomination, I suggest that it may be appopriate for you as nominator to rescind the nomination. Canuckle 19:23, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Keep Notability? Almost every episode of one of the most popular shows in history takes place here. This article could definitely use more references and any history that may have been stated on the show. There could also possibly be info about the real strip club used. MrBlondNYC 23:04, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    • As much as I'm usually inclined to despise in-universe articles which are too often unreferenced plot summaries of insufficient notability, the references of reliable, published secondary sources now included in the article assert sufficient notability. —AldeBaer 01:40, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
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    The result was delete as original research. KrakatoaKatie 15:57, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

    [edit] Self managed learning

    Self managed learning (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) – (View AfD)

    Jargon-laden article, most of whose references can be traced back to Ian Cunningham and the Centre for Self-managed Learning.[48][49]. No visible notoriety beyond this one organization. Alksub 03:05, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

    I am sorry you are considering this article for deletion, I wrote it because I am studying lots of different approaches to learning and self managed learning is a development from models such as action learning, which I noticed there was a piece on. I clearly haven't fully understood all the guidelines for how to write a good article and am keen to learn. I am confused about the point that all references going back to Ian Cunningham. Ian is, as far as I know the originator of the concept in the same way that Reg Revans started off Action Learning so it not surprising that a lot of stuff goes back to him but I have got some other references and will find ways of including them. Please give me some time to fully understand the Wikipedia guidelines and Jargon so that I can avoid offending anyone further with my initial amateur attempts at creating a piece.--Learning Adviser 09:46, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

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    The result was Keep — Caknuck 07:36, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

    [edit] Ben Domenech

    Ben Domenech (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) – (View AfD)

    This person seems to only be notable as the co-founder of a website and for being asked to resign from his job. Steve Dufour 02:58, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

    • Keep - That Web site happens to be RedState, a major conservative blog, and that job was a blogging position with Washingtonpost.com. He was asked to resign after an investigation determined that he had plagiarized more than a dozen articles that were published under his byline in his college newspaper and in The National Review Online. Even without the plagiarism flap, he would be encyclopedic for the RedState founding. FCYTravis 03:02, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    The article contains almost no information on RedState. 90% of it is about his job with the Post. Steve Dufour 03:04, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    Then... add information about it. Deletion is not a substitute for improvement. FCYTravis 03:06, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Keep per FCYTravis. Robertissimo 03:29, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Keep. Notable on three counts: founderco-founder of a significant website, writing for a major national publication, center of a significant plagiarism scandal. Gamaliel (Angry Mastodon! Run!) 03:52, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    The article says he was a co-founder of the site. He only held his job with the Post for 3 days. WP is not the news. Thanks. Steve Dufour 04:02, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    BTW the article on RedState only cites itself and two other blogs, except for the Washington Post story on their problems with Domenech. Steve Dufour 04:27, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    WP is not the news, but news coverage is a criteria we use to assess notablity. The reason he held his job for such a brief period was because of the scandal. Gamaliel (Angry Mastodon! Run!) 04:34, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    That was my point. The scandal and his resignation were just a news story. Steve Dufour 04:46, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    And that news story is one of three reasons I'm voting keep as I feel it establishes sufficent notability. Gamaliel (Angry Mastodon! Run!) 04:49, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Keep per FCYTravis. Thanks. Maxamegalon2000 05:22, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Keep per Travis and Gamaliel. Guettarda 13:28, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Delete Lots of college students plagiarise. I'm glad that one got caught and hope he serves as an example to warn others. However he does not really have the kind of permanent notability that WP is looking for. Redddogg 13:52, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Delete I am not arguing for deletions based on policy, but rather, (a) this person is utterly unimportant, (b) the controversy around him so minor, and (c) the individual's minimal accomplishments -- even if he has received press coverage in the past. A good analogy would be high school sports figures, who do in fact receive press coverage but are also utterly unimportant. Quatloo 02:31, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Merge to Purported United States journalism scandals where he will feel right at home. This article is a WP:COATRACK because its subject is known only for one episode which shows him in a bad light. He did not qualify under WP:BIO before his plaigarism was exposed. I say this even though I find the article quite satisfying and enjoyable to read. Edison 15:53, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Comment: FCYTravis calls RedState a "major" conservative blog. I don't see any evidence at all, anywhere, that it's major. If it can be shown that it's major, then Domenech's notability would be supported. If RedState isn't major, then Domenech's notability rests with a single, scandalous event and I'd agree with Edison, that the article should go, with information merged into the scandals article. (see Keep !vote below) How do you establish that the blog is "major"? I'm not sure, but someone might start with some factual assertion of its notability in the RedState article. Noroton 18:23, 29 August 2007 (UTC) -- updated Noroton 00:37, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Keep per FCYTravis/Gamaliel. Ossified 20:30, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Keep. In addition to his later exploits, he was the subject of a 946-word profile in the Washington Post when he was just 18 years old. That source alone means the subject meets WP:BIO. He was further profiled as part of "ELECTION 2004: Rising stars in the Republican Party" in the Atlanta Constitution, and named among the top ten bloggers by the Evansville Courier & Press in 2003. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 21:17, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
    Maybe he has a special talent for fooling newspaper people. The Washington Post even gave him a job :-) Steve Dufour 22:09, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
    Will Beback, could you please provide links to those articles? I'm having trouble finding them. Noroton 22:53, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
    I found them in ProQuest, an archive of newspapers, etc. You may be able to get access to the database through a library or university. Here are the citations. If you'd like me to quote excerpts I can post them on the talk page. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 23:05, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
    • An Early Eye for Political Punditry; Teenager's Pointed Views Play in Conservative Circles; [FINAL Edition] The Washington Post. Washington, D.C.: May 7, 2000. p. V.01
    • VIRGINIANS ARE JOUSTING IN ONLINE 'BLOGOSPHERE'; [City Edition] Pamela Stallsmith. Richmond Times - Dispatch. Richmond, Va.: Aug 24, 2003. p. A.1
    • BLOGGING YOUR MIND INTERNET WEBLOGS PROVIDE EASY FORUM FOR IDEAS AND OPINIONS; [Final Edition] Evansville Courier & Press. Evansville, Ind.: Nov 7, 2003. p. M.15
    • ELECTION 2004: Rising stars in the Republican Party; [Home Edition] TOM BAXTER, ANDREA JONES. The Atlanta Journal - Constitution. Atlanta, Ga.: Aug 29, 2004. p. A.7
    • Keep See: this sample of the first several paragraphs of the Washington Post article, which is clearly about Domenech and meets our definition of significant coverage from a reliable source. From what little I saw of the Atlanta Journal-Constitution article (the first two paragraphs here), it also appears to be significant coverage of Domenech from a reliable source (although he's apparently one of a number of people featured). This is clear, convincing evidence of WP:Notability. Combine it with the scandal and with whatever coverage we have in the article and that the other sources Will provided, and the case for notability is solid, now. Will Beback, thanks for your enormous help. Noroton 23:49, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
    I've added information from the Washington Post article. Noroton 00:25, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
    • keep - Domenech absolutely meets notability requirements, given the number and quality of citations in the article. Sufficient sourcing is available to write an NPOV article, there is an article, and there should still be an article after this AfD. DickClarkMises 23:11, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
    If this AfD decides to keep the article please do some work to correct the undue weight now given to his college plagiarism and his having to quit his job on the Washington Post. If he is notable it is as an Internet commentator, not a dishonest college student. (I will not edit the article since I was the one who nominated it for deletion.) Thanks. Steve Dufour 00:11, 3 September 2007 (UTC)


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    The result was Delete, pertinent info already has been merged — Caknuck 07:33, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

    [edit] Power of 10 Ratings

    Power of 10 Ratings (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) – (View AfD)

    Unneeded statistics that are not notable enough on their own to deserve a separate article; would require constant upkeep to keep article current. DachannienTalkContrib 02:43, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

    (Note: Promoted from prod to AFD due to comment on my user talk page.) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dachannien (talk • contribs) 02:45, August 29, 2007 (UTC)
    (Also note: Article was moved after AfD creation to Power of 10 Episodes.) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dachannien (talk • contribs) 01:26, August 30, 2007 (UTC)
    • Delete, would too easily become outdated even if merged to the main Power of 10 page. Ten Pound Hammer • (Broken clamshells•Otter chirps•Review?) 03:53, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Delete, WP:INDISCRIMINATE#4. This is statistics, not proper info. On the list of episodes it might have its place as a comment.K14 04:39, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Delete per lack of notability for ratings of this TV show Corpx 06:40, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Delete per Corpx.--Getaway 13:27, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Merge into the show's article. This would make the show's article more substantial and relevant. -- Mikeblas 14:15, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Merge per Mikeblas. J-stan TalkContribs 20:33, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Delete per WP:ATT and notability guidelines. "the highest ratings the timeslot had seen since Mid-May" would not be an encyclopedic assertion of notability even if sourced. I presume all published sources refer back to ACNielsen's press releases of their Nielsen ratings. While there may be brief mentions of this show's ratings in newspaper and magazine articles about the show, or conceivably in articles about each week's ratings, I doubt there are any mentions (independent pieces, not those generated by a PR person) giving significant coverage to the show's ratings. What little coverage exists can be summarized in the show's article, and need not be repeated at this level of detail. If any of the article's content is merged to Power of 10, then a redirect is needed, but otherwise I would recommend no redirect. Barno 00:37, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Merge. Ratings are fairly common tv show article fodder. And it's useful if it's in moderation. I'd suggesting merging and then taking out the chart but keeping a summary of the ratings. --WoohookittyWoohoo! 00:48, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Ratings for the start of a series or the average ratings for a season might be worth including, and any significant change in ratings relevant to an event that hit the news would be worthwhile (e.g., ratings falling after a timeslot change or killing off a character). I do think the material in this article goes into more detail than desired, though. --DachannienTalkContrib 01:18, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Merge, agreeing with Woohookitty. The chart is unnecessary, as ratings for every episode is not important, but ratings for the pilot, special episodes, and average ratings are important and should be on the main page. --Jon Terry 14:18, 31 August 2007 (UTC)


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    The result was keep. PeaceNT 08:51, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

    [edit] AAA Travel High School Challenge

    AAA Travel High School Challenge (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) – (View AfD)

    Unreferenced, non-notable competition, and article bordering on spam. Ford MF 02:41, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

    • Keep 600+ GHits including several links to news stories from USA Today and other papers. Wl219 03:15, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Note: This debate has been included in the list of Schools-related deletions. —TerriersFan 04:24, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Keep Article now has references and evidence of notability Billgordon1099 05:20, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Keep Sources provided establish notability. --Hdt83 Chat 05:46, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Keep - The sources provided establish that the article is verifiable. A Google search also indicates that the topic has plenty of independent sources and is hence notable. Camaron1 | Chris 10:28, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Keep - Many contestants of the National Geographic Bee go on to compete in this competition, arguably the geography bee of high school. --HansTAR 18:12, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
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    The result was delete. Singularity 17:08, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

    [edit] Matt Sauerhoff

    Matt Sauerhoff (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) – (View AfD)

    Delete - disputed prod. Subject fails WP:BIO, which requires significant roles in notable productions. Two episodes of The Sopranos and a voice in a video game doesn't make the cut. Otto4711 02:33, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

    • Delete minor roles alone are not enough to confer notability Corpx 06:39, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Delete no major roles or significant coverage in reliable sources. Eliz81(talk)(contribs) 00:20, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
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    The result was No consensus — Caknuck 07:30, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

    [edit] List of Canadian musicians

    List of Canadian musicians (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) – (View AfD)

    Redundant with Category:Canadian musicians. Since the page has an internal note stating that it is only for musicians that already have articles, it appears to serve no function that the category and its subcategories do not already provide. Chubbles 02:36, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

    • Delete per nom. GreenJoe 03:22, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Keep - This is a beautiful list. It is far more comprehensive than the category (which has only two entries), and this list includes annotations. The Transhumanist 03:34, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Delete again, much better served with a category. Inclusion criteria into this is way too loose Corpx 06:38, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Delete This is to big a list to be helpful. It will never contain more that a random selection of Canadian musicians. Lists are useful compared to categories, but not lists this big, and forever changing.Obina 09:34, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Comment - the category is virtually empty. If this list is deleted, then there will be no navigation aid for Canadian musicians at all. The Transhumanist 21:45, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Delete Agree this is redundant while Category: Canadian Musicians exist. - IamMcLovin 19:54, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Keep. I don't understand why lists are suddenly deletable. This is NOT the same content as any single category. Deleting this would remove a valuable alternate method for looking up this information. older ≠ wiser 01:33, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Category:Canadian musicians does not replace this list, as the content is diffused across a large number of subcategories. The category listings are not annotated. The "related changes" function, useful for keeping tabs on recent changes to a large number of Canadian music articles at once, does not work for categories. Members of Wikipedia:WikiProject Canadian music keep watch of this list—note that it is on the to-do list there. When one of us writes a new article, it can be an effective way to alert other members of its presence so that other eyes may take a glance over. In contrast, something new appearing in a category does not show up on a watchlist. Keep. --Paul Erik 02:21, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Delete. It's ironic that the main advantage lists have over categories (allowing users to add redlinks and help new articles to be created) is being prevented by editors of this list, who are removing any redlinks added. Delete it as redundant to the categories and against the whole idea of lists. Crazysuit 05:00, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Lists are not redundant with categories. They serve different purposes, and Wikipedia policy has always explicitly spelled out that a list is not deleted just because a category also exists — see Wikipedia:Categories, lists, and series boxes, which explicitly states that lists and categories should be used in synergy, not in exclusion to each other. The category, further, is not comprehensive in the same way as the list is; Category:Canadian musicians contains only subcategories, not individual articles, and is thus navigable only if you already know what subcategories an article is in. If you only know the musician's name, the category is useless as a navigation system. (Don't believe me? Using only the category system — no going to the list or the search box — find Phil Nimmons in no more than three clicks. You'll only be able to do it if you already know exactly which three clicks will get you there. And if you already know that, you didn't need to look him up in the first place.) The deletion rationale is thus invalid; keep. Bearcat 06:57, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Keep. Lists and categories supplement one another, and both are valuable tools. SriMesh | talk 02:21, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Keep per The Transhumanist, Paul Erik, Bearcat et al. Regarding replacement with categories, the Wiki category navigation remains rather crude and primitive and will probably stay that way for a long time. Lists such as these remain essential as navigation and descriptive tools that are customisable. Dl2000 02:39, 4 September 2007 (UTC)


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    The result was No consensus — Caknuck 07:27, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

    [edit] List of bands from Canada

    List of bands from Canada (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) – (View AfD)

    Redundant with Category:Canadian musical groups. Since the page has an internal note that says it is only for bands that already have articles, it appears to have no function that the category and its subcategories do not already serve. Chubbles 02:32, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

    • Delete This is sheer redundancy. Calgary 03:08, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Delete per Calgary. GreenJoe 03:22, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Keep - It has several functions that categories do not serve: Lists work with the "related changes" command, categories don't. Therefore, using "related changes", this list is highly useful for patrolling articles on Canadian bands, to spot vandalism, etc. Lists are easier to build and maintain (centralized location), and it is a lot faster to build a comprehensive list than a comprehensive category. Lists are easier to view - once downloaded, paging is server independent and therefore instantaneous. Changes to lists can be tracked, changes to categories cannot (categories don't have histories, only pages do), so if a link disappears, we can spot it (bt on categories, there's no easy way to spot missing links). As articles, lists can be linked to from See also sections, categories generally aren't (style violation). The Transhumanist 03:26, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Note that Category:Canadian musical groups does not have a listing in the way that List of bands from Canada does—the articles are diffused into a large number of subcategories. And this kind of list provides functions to editors that categories are unable to provide, not least of which is the "related changes" tool. Granted, this list would be more valuable to readers (as opposed to editors) if it were annotated; see Talk:List of bands from Canada#Table suggestion for an example of what this might become. Keep please. --Paul Erik 05:18, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Delete Categories can contain thousands of articles. Think about this list in 2010 at least. Don't forget that some editors enjoy adding red links to articles like this one. It is everything but unmaintainable. -- GarbageCollection - !Collect 05:42, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Delete Agree a Category:Candadian Bands will serve the purpose much better Corpx 06:38, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    You mean Category:Canadian musical groups. And if you don't see why it doesn't serve the same purpose as the list, use the category to find the band Farm Fresh in no more than three clicks. Let me know how you make out. Bearcat 07:14, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
    I personally think that the more organized they are, the better it is. Corpx 06:53, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
    • Keep. I don't understand why lists are suddenly deletable. This is NOT the same content as any single category. Deleting this would remove a valuable alternate method for looking up this information. older ≠ wiser 01:33, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Delete. It's ironic that the main advantage lists have over categories (allowing users to add redlinks and help new articles to be created) is being prevented by editors of this list, who are removing any redlinks added. Delete it as redundant to the categories and against the whole idea of lists. Crazysuit 04:49, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Lists are not redundant with categories. They serve different purposes, and Wikipedia policy has always explicitly spelled out that a list is not deleted just because a category also exists — see Wikipedia:Categories, lists, and series boxes, which explicitly states that lists and categories should be used in synergy, not in exclusion to each other. The category, further, is not comprehensive in the same way as the list is; Category:Canadian musical groups contains only subcategories, not individual articles, and is thus navigable only if you already know what subcategories an article is in. If you only know the band's name, the category is useless as a navigation system. (And no, this is not a justification for eliminating subcategories.) The deletion rationale is thus invalid; keep. Bearcat 07:07, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Keep. Lists supplement categories, and both are valuable tools. SriMesh | talk 02:23, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Weak keep, not redundant with categories because it provides an overall index, although I'd much rather see some annotation. Kappa 09:29, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Keep for the reasons that Bearcat stated. The article policy of only including bands with wikipedia articles should be discussed, but that issue is not justification for deletion.TheDarknessVisible 18:44, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
    Essentially, that's a way to ensure that the list only contains genuinely notable bands, so we don't end up with a list to which every 14-year-old punk rocker in Canada feels entitled to add his own non-recording garage band. Bearcat 06:24, 4 September 2007 (UTC)


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    The result was delete. PeaceNT 08:38, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

    [edit] Lanunachas

    Lanunachas (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) – (View AfD)

    The article has no sources. A Google search shows nothing but this article. It also reads like a hoax. Delete Boricuaeddie 02:18, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

    • DeleteI'm not sure if it's a hoax, but it doesn't seem to be notable. 2 ghits, none in gbooks or news. Even Metacrawler only yields 7 hits, 2 from wikipedia the rest spam. Reserve the right to change my mind if someone comes up with references,, but can't see keeping it at present.Horrorshowj 02:27, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Delete This article is likely a hoax. A quick google search shows up no hits at all. It is also impossible to verify the contents of this article. --Siva1979Talk to me 02:33, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Delete, No sources found, nothing in the Paranormal Database, and very likely a hoax. Dreadstar † 03:08, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Delete as suspected hoax. I've done several different google searches for this one, and haven't beena ble to verify anything. —gorgan_almighty 14:08, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Summary delete - bad faith. User has been warned about vandalism to Ireland. --Red King 19:09, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
      • Who, me? I've never vandalized an article, much less Ireland. --Boricuaeddie 19:21, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
        • I think he means the user who created this hoax article. —gorgan_almighty 20:14, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
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    The result was keep. PeaceNT 08:38, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

    [edit] Edison Welding Institute

    Edison Welding Institute (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) – (View AfD)

    Non notable company/organization (not sure which one this is). Either way, only 3 google news hits, and two are press releases New England Review Me!/Go Red Sox! 02:08, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

    • Keep Someone at a university with journal access is needed to improve and reference the article, but the subject seems notable. Google scholar has 510 articles, Google books 204 articles, for example [50], and ProQuest 55 documents providing many articles showing that this is the leading institute in North America on the science of joining materials. It is a joint effort of the government and university system of Ohio with industry. Edison 02:41, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Keep As described above, EWI appears to be notable based on its research impact. Unfortunately the welding community doesn't appear to be big on free web content, which makes sourcing difficult. I did manage to find sources from the New York Times, Businessweek, and two Columbus papers, which I've added to the article; the "Blue Collar Computing" project actually looks kind of interesting. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Billgordon1099 (talk • contribs) 06:50, August 29, 2007 (UTC)
    • Note: This debate has been included in the list of Business-related deletions. --Gavin Collins 12:24, 29 August 2007 (UTC)--
    • Keep. There seems to be a wealth of reliable secondary sources on this organisation (see here, and that's just from one news source). There seems to be a lot of notable information out there, so this article could easily be greatly expanded. —gorgan_almighty 14:15, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Keep per, inter alia, this, this and this. David Mestel(Talk) 21:06, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Keep. Seems notable per sources. Thin Arthur 06:10, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Keep per above. Bearian 00:00, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
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    The result was delete. PeaceNT 08:39, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

    [edit] Chris McJesus

    Chris McJesus (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) – (View AfD)

    None of the references demonstrate notability. Alksub 01:46, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

    • Delete No reliable sources to establish notability. Sounds like a hoax. --Hdt83 Chat 02:10, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Delete Lacks reliable sources on the internet. (Search for "Chris McJesus" -wikipedia returns only 5 results, most of them are blogs). Also, the name of "Chris McJesus" sounds a bit to similar to Jesus Christ, don't you think? Like to be a hoax as well.--Alasdair 02:16, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    Book is for sale on Amazon, so it's not a hoax. I'm sure the choice of pseudonym was intentional, but not relevant to notability.Horrorshowj 03:05, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Delete. Author of a single book published by a vanity press, with no other notability claimed or established. Deor 02:24, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Delete Lacks sources. NHRHS2010 Talk 02:41, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Delete Lack of references online is bad for something this recent. Not finding any reviews of the author's 1 book online. Book isn't notable, and there's nothing to indicate separate notability for the author. Notified article creator of AfD. Horrorshowj 03:05, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Delete Non-notable. Cheers,JetLover 03:12, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Delete no reliable sources to establish notabillity. Oysterguitarist 04:55, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Delete (Can somebody close this per WP:SNOW)? Anywho, no sources, no notability, no verification, and is likely a hoax.--PrestonH 04:59, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Delete per above. --EAEB 14:35, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Delete This article violates WP:OR too. I don't see any reason to keep it.--NAHID 19:59, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
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    The result was delete. — TKD::Talk 16:04, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

    [edit] History of the Brahma Kumaris movement

    History of the Brahma Kumaris movement (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) – (View AfD)

    This is a (partial) copy of Brahma Kumaris World Spiritual University created by a new editor who has persistently refused to engage in discussion or participate in consensus building on that article. It other words, it is intended as a WP:POVFORK. There is no need to break the history out of the article. "Original" copy and paster removed a prod tag. IPSOS (talk) 01:40, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

    Delete Given the history including numerous sockpuppets, bannings and arbitration, a fork like this is totally inappropriate. There needs to be concensus developed for material on THAT page, then, if the article gets big enough, then a moving of it, not one user, who doesn't work towards concensus at all, coming over here and starting something. Sethie 04:58, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

    Delete The repeated re-inclusion of copy-vio posters [51] that a previous editor Green108 was using as a basis for original research gives some indication where the article is heading. As a background, I have filed an SSP report on this editor and I also suggest reading this discussion page as this shows how strongly and stubbornly the original research is being promoted even after being clearly exposed as such by Utcursch. In the interests of disclosure, I must state that I am a member of the BKWSU and am primarily concerned with BKWSU-related articles due to the attacking nature of the article as it used to be. I am very grateful to the unaffiliated editors who have helped bring the article up to Wikipedia's standards. Regards Bksimonb 06:51, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

    No decision has been made on the copyright status of the posters. --Lwachowski 23:04, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

    Delete per nom. ColdmachineTalk 07:06, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

    Delete Totally inappropriate. Riveros11 13:43, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

    Keep. I started this topic, moving the first paragraphs from the main BKWSU topic. The article was flagged up as a stub and requires time development but the material are there to do so, both with regards to the early and recent history. Where the main article documents the beliefs and lifestyle, this topic is intended to

    • frame and document that within social and historical factors
    • allow for a not only a much bigger, detailed picture
    • a chronology of accurately documented dates and events uptodate.

    Of course, it only makes sense if linked to form the original article. There would not be enough room to do so. It would not be directly relevant to the main topic.

    Within the history of Pre-Partition India, and being on the border of India and Pakisthan, the organisation is noteworth for its role in almost bring down the Sindhi government invoking the involvement of the British Raj. It is intended to place it within its context of the experience of the mainly Hindu Sindi Pakisthanis, Amir and the Bhaiband communities. Good reference material exits from the 30s, 70s and uptodate.

    It is as easy for individuals to brew up shortsighted prejudices and accusations, attempting to block any non-BKWSU involvement on technicalities, as it is for them to use the undo button to delete others work. It is neither productive nor does not create well referenced articles. As Bksimonb correctly discloses of himself, Riveros11 is also a BK follower. Their intention appears to be block the development any of these topic beyond the limitations of the current BKWSU own publicity material. --Lwachowski 23:02, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

    But why come over here and create a new page? Why not work this material into the main BK page and then remove or expand it if that page got too large?
    Because a lot of the material you introduced here would not fly there.

    :Given your edit history, and that you introduced all sorts of wikilinks, but neglected to leave a wikilink to BKWSU! tells the whole story. Sethie 23:40, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

    • Addition. Actually I did add a Wikilink back to the main article. It was removed by IPSOS. I would argue that tells even more about the whole story . [52].
    Sethie. It would have taken less energy to have just added to yourself rather than write a line whindging. That is what the Wiki is all about. There are no categories either yet because I have not had time.
    • I have started development of the timeline. Obviously at present it is just a sketch as if the article is going to be deleted there is no much point putting too much work into it ... but again, the idea is that other can contribute rather than squash new idea and research. I hope this illustrates why it will be a useful and valid page. --Lwachowski 05:00, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
    You appear to have inserted the commnunity site and other links into the article. This was removed from the BKWSU article after an rfc. This just backs up what Sethie says in that you are (re)introducing material that won't fly on the original article. Bksimonb 05:10, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Delete - after looking at the edit war going on over at the main article, this clearly appears to be a POV fork per nominator. GlassFET 14:30, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
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    The result was delete. PeaceNT 07:20, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

    [edit] Independent University of Australia

    Independent University of Australia (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) – (View AfD)

    Orphan since October 2006 and unreferenced since April 2007. No evidence that such an institution ever existed. The only Ghits -wikipedia are the resume of somebody who claimed to have "earned" degrees there. Zero references in the Parliament of Victoria Hansard. Not on the Register of Recognised Education Institutions in Australia. Dbromage [Talk] 01:27, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

    • Note: This debate has been included in the list of Australia-related deletions. -- Dbromage [Talk] 01:33, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Delete as spam lacking any verification of notability in reliable sources. Considering there isn't even a link to the "school's" website, it could even be a hoax. VanTucky (talk) 01:34, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
      • Comment. It's not spam and I don't think it's a hoax as such. The rumours do go back to 1972 but I think they are just that - rumours. Even if it did exist as a degree mill it's not a notable one. Dbromage [Talk] 01:43, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Delete per WP:HOAX. Like any tertiary institutions, I'd expect mentions on the web, or at least search results. (including unreliable sources like MySpace entries, blogs of students there, if it exists, it should have students, and at least one student will blab their life out etc.) But there are only 3 results when I tried on Google. This suggests that it is either not notable, or merely a hoax.--Alasdair 01:52, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Delete You'd think the guy who founded it in 1972 would have a google hit.Mbisanz 02:17, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Delete as non-notable even if it's not a hoax. KTC 03:45, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Note: This debate has been included in the list of Education-related deletions. —KTC 03:45, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Delete As you can see from the talk page, I expressed concern about this article's lack of verifiability over a year ago. Even if it did exist, it doesn't seem at all notable. --Canley 09:28, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Delete. Long time speculation but no sources. Thin Arthur 06:11, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
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    The result was redirected to mixed-breed dog. DS 16:44, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

    [edit] Cockeranian

    IP disputed prod. The article utterly lacks any verification of the subject's notability through reliable sources. While poodle hybrids in general are very notable, this particular variety is not. It should be deleted and redirected to the aforementioned article. While a recognized breed by the American Canine Hybrid Association, the only criteria to meet for the organization is that a $5 fee be paid. Thus, it patently fails the test of reliability. There are many Google hits to buy the dog, but none at all in a search for news sources. VanTucky (talk) 01:12, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

    • Merge to Mutt MarkBul 01:52, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Delete. No reliable sources are apparent, and there's no evidence this crossbreed is even particularly popular. Even the Google results (~950 hits) are entirely unremarkable for a crossbreed - compare 29,600 for the relatively unpopular "boxerdoodle", and over 500,000 for the better-known "labradoodle". Zetawoof(ζ) 02:12, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Delete. AOL Jerazol 08:39, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
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    The result was Nomination Withdrawn. Non-admin closure. Leuko 19:58, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

    [edit] Legal instruments of Jehovah's Witnesses

    Legal instruments of Jehovah's Witnesses (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) – (View AfD)

    Wikipedia is not the phone book. Most of this article is directory information for various religious organizations. Leuko 00:52, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

    • Comment I could see an argument to keep, but the section at the end needs to go. FrozenPurpleCube 00:54, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
      • What's really left though? Leuko 01:04, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    The most encyclopedic stuff in the article is the few parts with descriptions and not just directories. But the argument to keep would not rely solely on the content of the article, but also the concept. After all, the organization of a religion is something that needs to be covered at least in part. But how much? And in what form? I'm not sure yet. FrozenPurpleCube 01:13, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Keep a lot of this article is worthwhile and worth keeping, issues with the excess of details can be dealt with, we can be bold and do some cropping.KTo288 —Preceding unsigned comment added by KTo288 (talk • contribs) 01:38, August 29, 2007 (UTC)
      • Comment: Probably only the first two paragraphs are worth keeping, and we can probably merge them somewhere. Leuko 01:46, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
        • Comment I've had a go at pruning it, don't know how long it'll stay pruned for.KTo288 02:48, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Delete/Merge Looks like a directory level entry to me. Merge whatever non-directorial info deemed appropriate back into the main article Corpx 06:37, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Note:Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Jehovah's Witnesses have been notified of this debate. --KTo288 09:55, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Keep as notable and well-sourced. Chop it down to size. I added this to WP Law. Bearian 23:53, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Keep Yet another instance where WP:NOT has been utterly misinterpreted and misused. Above and beyond the fact that no phone numbers are listed, the purpose of the article is to describe the organization's often opaque corporate structure, which it does using reliable and verifiable sources to satisfy the Wikipedia:Notability standard. Alansohn 05:44, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
      • Did you look at the state of the article when it was nominated? I would argue it was not a misinterpretation of WP:NOT at all, but it has been cleaned up since then. Leuko 13:44, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
        • I did. It contained phone numbers. It consisted primarily of a description of the corporate governance of the organization. With very little effort, other editors were able to remove all of the phone numbers and what appeared as directory information and left us with an article which seems to have a consensus for retention. There is no reason that this article needed to be submitted for deletion to accomplish these goals. Alansohn 19:21, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
          • There was a couple of paragraphs worth keeping, but 90% was just addresses and phone numbers of various chapters. As the article is cleaned up now, and there seems to be a consensus to keep it, I'll withdraw the nomination. Leuko 19:58, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
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    The result was delete. PeaceNT 08:36, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

    [edit] Administrative incompetence

    Administrative incompetence (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) – (View AfD)

    Listcrufty grab-bag essay tagged as unsourced for three months; clearly devoted to original synthesis of ideas behind an originally devised title and somewhat of a POV fork as such. Topic is, in a sense, notable, but it is unclear what an article about it will add to the 'pedia; we do not have articles on incompetence in other fields. Eleland 00:40, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

    • Delete as patently original research failing notability as a neologism. VanTucky (talk) 01:36, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Delete per lack of sources + WP:NEO Corpx 06:36, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Delete unsourced, made up almost entirely of original research and unlikely ever to be anything other than a grab-bag essay because the topic is just too broad. There's certainly important information out there on the topic, but it would need to be in articles about management styles and philosophies, wouldn't it? I'm sure we have some. Noroton 21:04, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Note: This debate has been included in the list of Business-related deletions. —Noroton 21:10, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Delete per Corpx and Eleland. I don't see how this could possible pass WP:OR, WP:N, and WP:RS. Good candidate for a snowball close perhaps? --Bfigura (talk) 21:23, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Delete this mess. Bearian 23:54, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Delete per above. - Aagtbdfoua 20:50, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
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    The result was delete. PeaceNT 08:36, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

    [edit] ISPIM First 25 Years

    ISPIM First 25 Years (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) – (View AfD)

    This is an unreferenced essay. Alksub 00:41, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

    • Delete: Blatant WP:OR. Leuko 00:55, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Delete Unreferenced! NHRHS2010 Talk 01:44, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Delete A readthrough suggests that it is written like an advertisement (violates WP:SPAM), or is simply original research. The user name of the author suggests a conflict of interest too.--Alasdair 01:45, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Delete unrefrenced, original research. Oysterguitarist 04:45, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Delete WP:OR (lacks sources in many ways).--PrestonH 05:01, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Delete Unreferenced Czac 13:33, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Delete per all above. The entire article is written in HTML, and look at those Fig (image) placeholders! The whole article looks like its been cut'n'pasted from a webpage that was generated from a word document. Could well be a copyvio as well. —gorgan_almighty 14:26, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
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    The result was delete. — TKD::Talk 16:01, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

    [edit] Little Rock hip hop

    Little Rock hip hop (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) – (View AfD)

    Article comprises a few sentences of original research and an unsourced list. ˉˉanetode╦╩ 00:18, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

    • Delete per nom. Leuko 01:00, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Delete per Leuko. NHRHS2010 Talk 01:48, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Delete per NHRHS2010. Calgary 03:05, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
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    The result was Speedy Delete by User:SchuminWeb. Non-admin closure. Leuko 04:23, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

    [edit] Battlefield Baptist Church

    Battlefield Baptist Church (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) – (View AfD)

    No indication of notability. Most of article is also a copyvio of the church website. Alksub 00:17, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

    • Speedy delete as A7 and G12. Marking as such. Leuko 00:57, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Speedy per Leuko. If rejected, delete as failing notability criteria. VanTucky (talk) 01:38, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Speedy delete per nom. It looked like copyright violation of the church website. NHRHS2010 Talk 01:45, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Delete There are ways in which a church can be shown to be notable. Generally substantial coverage is required in multiple independent and reliable sources, to satisfy WP:N and the more specific WP:ORG. This article fails those. Edison 02:54, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
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    The result was delete. PeaceNT 07:27, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

    [edit] 100 Greatest One-hit Wonders

    100 Greatest One-hit Wonders (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) – (View AfD)

    Non-notable list. Alksub 00:09, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

    • Delete - Unsourced, and even if it wasn't, completely non-notable (it's a replica of one list from a TV show from 5 years ago). Oli Filth 00:12, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Delete as unsourced and inherently POV. The non-US bands seem to have had only one hit in the USA, but ignores their home countries. Dbromage [Talk] 01:31, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Delete this isn't VH1. Take your OR trivia elsewhere. Possible speedy as copyvio of the show? VanTucky (talk) 01:39, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Delete because 1. not notable list 2. unreferenced NHRHS2010 Talk 01:46, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Delete Violates fair use without critical commentary, and without critical commentary from reliable secondary sources, this list is presented as The Truth, and is thus POV. --Phirazo 03:11, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Delete - eo 12:05, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Delete POV and OR, and this would be extremely hard to fix. Hut 8.5 17:23, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Delete - Could find nothing at VH1 Site that confirms this list. SkierRMH 20:29, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Delete for all the above rerasons, plus the fact that it is far from a well-researched list. even if it was possible for "a list of the best one-hit wonders" to be NPOV, it would at least have to contain one-hit wonders. So (to take just two out of many examples from the list)... which of Suzi Quatro's three number one hits does it list? And why is the Devo hit listed no the one that charted highest or for longest? Grutness...wha? 01:29, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Comment I don't care if this list gets deleted, but at least it's sourced now. Maher-shalal-hashbaz 02:11, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
    True - it's sourced now, however sourced as a TV documentary series. If re-written/presented as that it might be a very weak 'keep' (as a documentary series), but presented solely as a list, all of the other concerns above still stand. SkierRMH 15:03, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
    • Delete "greatest" is inherently subjective. We're an encyclopaedia, and everyone will have a different point of view on the matter. VH1 may create such a list, Wikipedia may not. Melsaran (talk) 11:03, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
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    The result was delete. PeaceNT 07:27, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

    [edit] Bearcat egg

    Bearcat egg (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) – (View AfD)

    Was tagged for speedy, does not seem to me to actually fit any speedy criteria, so I've brought it here. This seems to be a minor item from a game (Project .hack), so I would tend to think this is not worth inclusion in the encyclopedia. Heimstern Läufer (talk) 00:05, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

    • Delete as speedy tagger per nom, non-notable object in a game. Ten Pound Hammer • (Broken clamshells•Otter chirps•Review?) 00:14, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    • 'Delete per above' NHRHS2010 Talk 01:47, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Delete No sources to verify content or establish notability. --Hdt83 Chat 02:07, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Delete This is notable, how? Calgary 02:50, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Delete per nom. Maxamegalon2000 05:23, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Delete - will Wikipedia ever be free of the non-notable article subjects and content that seems to constantly reappear? -- Anonymous DissidentTalk 06:40, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Delete Per nom Czac 13:34, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Delete per...WP:N. No assertion of notability, no relevance to the real world, so WP:FICTION too.Ravenmasterq 03:49, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Delete Per all of the above. ♠TomasBat 00:47, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
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    The result was Delete. Carlossuarez46 05:33, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

    [edit] Objectivist politics

    Objectivist politics (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) – (View AfD)

    article is original research, lacks notability, concept is not frequently used either in academic or regular circles, does not cite secondary authors to establish notability, cannot be substantively improved because it really does not seem to exist in popular or academic usage Buridan 14:07, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

    • Delete per WP:OR. --EAEB 14:38, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Delete The article as written is entirely OR based strictly on Ayn Rand's writings, and is therefore reliant on primary sourcing. There are substantial references to objectivist politics in the outside world, mostly related to libertarianism, and I would have no objection if the article was recast to include those lines of thinking. Right now the article does not appear to be salvageable without wholesale pruning and re-referencing. Time for someone else to try again.. Acroterion (talk) 15:27, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Comment This is part of a series of articles on Rand's material. They rely on much the same set of references from Rand herself. The problem for each is that it fails to demonstrate the notability of the topic in accord with Wikipedia:Notability. This could be done by providing references to secondary sources that discuss critically (in the English sense in which criticism is not always negative) the specific topic of the article. If, for example, Wikipedia:WikiProject Objectivism took this up as a priority, we could leave the articles to develop. Otherwise, delete as per nom. Banno 23:52, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Transwiki Objectivism is based primarily on Ayn Rand's philosophy, thus it's unsurprising it relies largely on primary sources. Even the main article notes the hostility the philosophy faces in academia. May qualify as WP:OR as a result. However, it seems accurate for the views of Objectivists, and is well done. Move to Wikibooks and allow users to put out a nice collection of Objectivist applications. Unless secondary sources can be found obviously.Horrorshowj 00:08, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

    *Strong Keep The article is sourced on the most reliable source available: published non-fiction. The sources are 'directly related to the topic of article'. My point is that the article is in no way origninal research. The article relies on reliable, published primary sources. The books authored by Ayn Rand alone are non-trivial and therefore supply significant coverage of the topic in detail. The rationale for the nomination is simply wrong. Karbinski 17:22, 30 August 2007 (UTC) Karbinski 15:02, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

    the rationale is that it is original research bodged together without any secondary citations, without any significant citations beyond the author being researched and presented. there is no evidence of notability provided in the article beyond the notability of the author cited, who already has many articles, perhaps this could be merged into one of those, else it should be deleted.--Buridan 14:41, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
    Then it should be no problem to establish notability by providing citations to secondary sources. Banno 21:23, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Delete Although I disagree with the notion the article as a whole is original research, I am convinced that the central article on Objectivism offers sufficient encyclopedic content for this topic.Karbinski 15:02, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Comment there appears to be an inconsistent between the strong Delete vote here and the lack of consensus on Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Objectivist theory of value. Banno 20:32, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
    • comment you put that up as notability, this is up as original research and notability, and not cited appropriately, etc. etc.--Buridan 21:44, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
    • Delete. No independent reliable sources means no way to satisfy WEIGHT or avoid OR. It also means this article fails notability. Cool Hand Luke 03:40, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
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    The result was redirect to List of Guild Wars characters. KrakatoaKatie 15:52, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

    [edit] Sylvari

    Sylvari (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) – (View AfD)

    Content fails notability test, WP not a Crystal Ball, and all similar content has been merged into List of Guild Wars characters GW-fan 17:48, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

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