Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Log/2006 October 27

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The result was Speedily deleted per WP:CSD G7 - original author (same numerical address) blanked the page. - Smerdis of Tlön 13:56, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Cityblock

This article reads like an advertisment. I proded it twice and the tag was twice removed. So now I put it here. Opinions? --Tone 07:13, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

• Delete, it does sound like a ad, and has only itself as a source. Qaanaaq 07:31, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Weak delete as it seems they could pass WP:CORP if it were NPOV and referenced, which this article is not.--Dhartung | Talk 08:13, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Delete A very small business - £96K profit and it seems no employees yet - not even the directors. WP:Corp talks about companies used in stock market indexes and the like, or notable due to multiple media reports. Also this article is more about the CEO's other small business monstermob.Obina 09:05, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Delete. I don't think there's any reason for it to be here, plus "recognised as one of the North West's leading entrepreneurs" sounds rather weaselly to me. BTLizard 09:37, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Delete Non-notable business now, and article is poorly written, close to being advertisement. --SunStar Net 11:33, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Delete Nothing here that's not already said in Martin Higginson. Otherwise fails WP:NN. SkerHawx 11:45, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Delete per nom --NRS | ^T/_M\^B 12:31, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Delete. Advertising. User:Peopleinfo seems to have been created just to advertise this Martin Higginson and his company. Robinoke 12:50, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Delete per nom. Very NN. --In ur base, killing ur dorfs 13:00, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

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The result was merge to Stoughton, Massachusetts. --Ezeu 22:54, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Stoughton Fire Department

Delete. It's a fire department with no particular notability. The article goes into great detail about the particulars of the organization but does not assert importance. Deprodded without comment. ... discospinster _talk 00:11, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

• Merge into the Stoughton, Massachusetts article. Fire departments are notable by definition, but are best covered in their town's article. The stuff about uniform colours and such needs to go though. Andrew Lenahan - Starblind 00:22, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Merge as above keeping what little notability there is in the Stoughton article. Jcam 03:17, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Merge as above. They may be verifiable, but they are not really notable. Small town fire departments don't warrent media coverage outside of their own local area, so they aren't that independantly notable. --Jayron32 03:46, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Delete. As per nom-- not notable. Nephron  T|C 04:02, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Merge This article can be merged into Stoughton, Massachusetts. Daniel5127 (Talk) 06:47, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Merge only a few details about the size of the department and its chief. The rest is non-notable. --Dhartung | Talk 08:15, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Strong Delete. I don't think that "by definition" local branches/services of government are notable. The information is certainly verifiable, but once you peel back the unimportant information, you're left with "Stoughton, MA has a fire department." (Just like every other city of 15,000+ population in the U.S.) There are only 12 fire departments listed in Category:Fire_departments and only 39 in Category:Fire departments of the United States (most of these are stubs). Contrast Warsaw Fire Guard, which demonstrates notability beyond doubt. Certainly if a fire department participated in a notable event, such as 9/11 (see Arlington County Fire Department), the Great Chicago Fire, or even demonstrates a long history of notable service (e.g. the Warsaw Guard article), then the department warrants mention. But to think that details about every city and village's fire departments are encyclopedic is a bit bizarre to me. Information has to be notable, and the fact that a city has a fire department -- well -- isn't. (I would also support deleting many of the other non-notables in the categories listed above.) SkerHawx 12:08, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Merge as per Jcam. --NRS | ^T/_M\^B 12:34, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Merge the the town article. As Kurt Vonnegut noted, fire departments are a vital agency, since we live on a planet with about 20% of the air consisting of a highly reactive chemical, Oxygen, and they are the agency which is charged with preventing the rapid catastrophic combining of that chemical with us, our loved ones, and our possessions, even at significant risk to their safety. Edison 12:41, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Merge no reason to have it's own page. Audiobooks 18:28, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Merge per Starblind. P.B. Pilhet / Talk 19:21, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• merge into the town article makes most sense really Yuckfoo 01:48, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

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The result was Speedy keep - CrazyRussian talk/email 12:41, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Model Warship Combat

WP:V - CrazyRussian talk/email 00:21, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Withdrawn. - CrazyRussian talk/email 12:41, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

• Keep I'm undecided about NABGO, but the general article on this should stay. It does seem to be a hobby with many clubs and societies in several countries. Andrew Lenahan - Starblind 00:30, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Keep seems to be a valid, international hobby. But move to Model warship combat --Steve 01:21, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Keep A google search turns up MANY websites devoted to this hobby. I am not that interested in this hobby, but it doesn't make it non-notable. Definately keepable. --Jayron32 03:49, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• 423,000 hits on Google. Looks like a keeper to me. Nephron  T|C 04:07, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Technical comment: That would be 5,480 Google hits only.[1] You have to use the exact term, not every website which uses the three words anywhere in the text without much of a relation.Fram 11:15, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Keep, but 1) sources will have to be added, and 2) remove the specific group links as they wouldn't pass WP:EL. ColourBurst 05:16, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Keep but move per Steve. I'm not 100% certain this is the best name but it's descriptive enough. Backlink to miniature wargaming needed, too. --Dhartung | Talk 08:20, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Keep What made anyone think this was a candidate for deletion? Over anxious deleter. --Ughmonster 09:27, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Weak keep - Doesn't seem to be notable, but keep it for now. Let the editor provide more sources and add more matter --NRS | ^T/_M\^B 12:36, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus, leaning towards keep. JYolkowski // talk 21:12, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] B. H. Carroll Theological Institute

Unnotable unaccredited "institute." I get 342 yahoo hits for "Carroll Theological Institute". This "institute" does not even have classrooms, and while its website in 2004 said it hopes to have accreditation one day, there is no independent accreditation group/board that mentions this. The last afd was "no consensus" due to inclusionists claiming two church publications make it notable. Arbusto 20:46, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

• Keep I questioned the good faith of this AfD as soon as I saw it on my watchlist, and Arbusto did not disappoint, starting in with a baseless attack on those who voted to keep this article as "inclusionists", accompanied by the use of "scare quotes" to imply that there is something unseemly going on here. A thorough read through the published, verifiable, independently-sourced articles included in the article regarding the school shows that it is quite genuine. That a new school is not accredited by a national accrediting agency does not make it a diploma mill, nor does the timeframe in obtaining such accreditation constitute any evidence of non-notability. Despite the lack of traditional news coverage, the articles provided and available online provide clear satisfaction of every aspect required by WP:V. I find the use of "scare quotes" and other derogatory suppositions regarding those who voted to keep the article in the previous AfD to be yet another staggering violation of WP:AGF by Arbusto, and the bad faith shown in taking another stab at destroying this article so quickly to only add to the issues. Based on the sources provided, I have few doubts regarding the notability of this institution, but many regarding the nomination. Alansohn 21:10, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

Two church sources (from 2003, 04) make it notable how? It doesn't even have a campus. Or approval to operate in the state, which is required by Texas law.[2] Arbusto 21:16, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

You again are falsely characterizing the sources. These are independent, verifiable and reliable sources that describe the institution and its no programs, satisfying WP:V; they are not "church sources". I know of no Wikipedia standard that requires an educational institution to have a brick-and-mortar campus; apparently, in our computer age, schools have the ability to offer classes electronically over this thing called the "Internet". The article you provide is completely and entirely accurate, but entirely irrelevant to the article in question. You again try to falsely imply that the B. H. Carroll Theological Institute is offering degrees in violation of Texas law, and provide a source that talks about some other school. What on earth do you have against this school? Alansohn 01:19, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

Pointing out the lack of notability of the topic does not mean an editor has something "against this school". Removal of a non-notable school article from the encyclopedia is not a judgement on the school itself, but only on the appropriateness of including an article on it in the encyclopedia. —ptk✰fgs 06:31, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

Lack of official permission to operate is by no means a barrier to mention an entity in Wikipedia, or we could not mention any rebel group, any subversive movement, or any underground operation. We only note whether there is a reliable and verifiable source to show notability. We are not a state licensing and regulatory agency. Edison 12:56, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

• Delete. Unaccredited, non-notable. Even the person voting keep admits "the lack of traditional news coverage". Crabapplecove 23:58, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
• Delete Has WP:V issues since the only sources are two partisan articles. JoshuaZ 01:32, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment To address the issues raised regarding WP:V, the publications listed in the article are independent and verifiable in full compliance with WP:V. The fact that they cover church-related news makes them no different from any other "industry" publication that neutrally covers a particular subject. Additionally, it was only a lack of effort that fails to turn up other sources. Google News Archive provided several additional references in such "partisan" publications as the Fort Worth Star-Telegram, Dallas Morning News, San Antonio Express-News, Kansas City Star and the Atlanta Journal-Constitution, all of which should pass the WP:V test of even the most rabid deletionists. Alansohn 13:27, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Um, the "sources" include "Fort Worth Star-Telegram": Obituaries Oct 19, 2004 that says "Those desiring, please make memorial contributions in Dr. Drakeford's name to the BH Carroll Theological Institute", "Atlanta Journal-Constitution, The: Amen Corner Nov 22, 2003 Baptists in Texas plan to open the independent Carroll Theological Institute."

The Fort Worth Star-Telegram is an obituary and the only reference to this "institute" where to donate money. Is that the best WP:V you have an obituary?

Do you have a source that this place is legally operating. Those articles mention that "Carroll Theological Institute" will be opened in 2004. Isn't it notable enough for press coverage since its been open? Arbusto 18:07, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Arbusto, do you even believe a fraction of the stuff you're writing? You pick the two least relevant sources included in the search to represent all of the other articles that directly mention the school and its programs, again deliberately misinterpreting the information provided to falsely push your agenda. Will you ever demonstrate the intellectual honesty necessary to address ALL of the information provided, and stop manufacturing requirements that you feel this article doesn't meet? Where is the criteria that specifies your made-up rules? Alansohn 12:43, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Keep Per above, ALL schools are inherently notable -- Librarianofages 06:49, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

Oh really? Show me where it says such a thing in Wikipedia policy. Anyone can start an unaccredited "school" and there's nothing notable about 99 percent of those who do. wikipediatrix 15:28, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

• Delete. An "unaccredited Christian Baptist institution" that "does not hold classes in any conventional sense" and only "teaches Baptist principles and practices" is not a school in any sense of the word. All churches and prayer groups teach their principles and practices, that doesn't mean they're schools just because they say they are. I could start thirty of these kinds of online "schools" sitting here at my computer this afternoon and be no more or less valid. wikipediatrix 15:28, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
• Delete unaccredited school with no assertion of notability. —ptk✰fgs 18:19, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
• Delete per nom and JoshuaZ. Small pseudo-institute with no assertion of notability. Prolog 06:25, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
• Keep The coverage in independent reliable sources allows us to write an article adhering to the policies WP:NPOV and WP:V. Contrary to the commentary above, one of these sources is from this year, not from earlier years. Getting accreditation is a multi-year process for a new school. See the section on accredidation here for where they are in the process. I assume the editor who claimed they could lauch lots of "equally valid" online schools in an afternoon is a college/university president, as this was founded by one fired as part of a theological (not academic) dispute. See [3]. GRBerry 15:56, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment What independnent reliable sources? All we have are a few religious publications with obvious strong biases in the matter. JoshuaZ 16:08, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
    • Comment The Baptist publications are independent reliable sources. They are not by close affiliates of the institute. For those who don't follow Christian denominations, baptists are about as unorganized as something can be and still be worth having an organizational label for. Independent for discussing notability and for WP:INDY purposes means just independent of the particular organization/person/etc... under discussion. Religious POV newspapers are just as legitimate as "alternative" newspapers with a politically left POV (which we use as independent reliable sources on politically left topics). The Baptist Standard is a print newspaper/magazine that has been publishing since 1888, see [4]. The Associated Baptist Press is a news bureau based in Florida with offices in Washington D.C. and Texas, see [5]. GRBerry 18:14, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
      • I find the comment by JoshuaZ that the sources used are "religious publications with obvious strong biases" to be disturbing and confusing. What is their bias? Each of these sources are used to provide factual information, not to offer an opinion. Each source used is an independent entity that covers religion. The implication that these sources are invalid is false, if not patently offensive. Alansohn 13:27, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
  • The issue here is notability. There are two sources tied to churches. That's all there is. Yes, accreditation is a multi year process; Are they a canidate? Can you verify they have applied for accreditation? All regional accreditators require a school have a library, this doesn't even have a campus. Arbusto 16:10, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
    • The only one of these points relevant to notability is that the false claim about the independent sources. The sources are not tied to churches. The publishers have near pseudo-denominational affiliations, which is very, very different. (Baptists aren't even really a single denomination; in the U.S. they were for about 50 years, but have been becoming more and more fragmented since they original association broke up due to the same tensions that led to the Civil War.) See the response above for more details about what the publishers are. There have been multiple published, independent reliable sources primarily about them, which is the foundational basis for almost all criteria for notability, and we have no consensus criteria for schools to assert a tighter standard. (The notion of tighter standard for schools is laugahable, given the general AFD discussion about schools.) A trivial google search also produces additional reliable sources. There are 34 articles in The Baptist Standard that refer to the school (natural, given that it covers Baptists in Texas) [6]. It has been covered by the North Carolina baptist newspaper, which isn't exactly local to the school, [7] (this also incidentally mentions a near 5,000 volume donation to the Institute's physical library plus a second smaller one, proving from an independent reliable source that the institute does have a library). GRBerry 18:14, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
      • • Comment Coverage of specialized subjects is often in specialized publications. Particle physics developments are covered in specialized physics journals, and Baptist religion is covered in Baptist religious publications. We do not refuse to have articles about Quarks because only books and journals about particle physics, which are obviously biased toward tiny invisible no-see-ums, discuss them. Edison 13:03, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Two sources fails WP:CORP which states "The company or corporation has been the subject of multiple non-trivial published works whose source is independent of the company or corporation itself." Moreover, you need accreditation in Texas to be a legitimate school. Please provide a WP:RS that this "school" is recognized by the Texas Higher Education Coordinating Board(a group that oversees higher education in Texas). Arbusto 01:45, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

I am starting to think that you are either not listening or severely biased. First, "multiple" means more than one. So even if there were only two, which has been false for the entire time this discussion was underway, multiple is met. But we have linked in the article and referenced here, from at least three different independent publishers four different non-trivial published works primarily about the institute. Then I pointed out that one of those publishers has thirty-four different articles that mention the institute. Your arguments hold no water. Plus we have JJay's statement below that it was covered by the city paper, even though their archives aren't freely available to use it as a source. And not being accredited is not a reason for deletion; we have multiple categories for non-accredited schools. GRBerry 12:34, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Please try to turn down the attitude and keep your personal observations about other editors to yourself. And as for the other sources, I don't think publications like the Baptist Standard or the Biblical Recorder count, because they violate, at least in spirit, WP:CORP's dictum that the source be "independent of the company or corporation itself". It's for this reason that we don't give as much weight to articles about Scientology that come from Scientologist news services. Lastly, I think the authors of WP:CORP meant "multiple" to be more than just two, because even a hot dog stand in Iowa can manage to get two puff-piece articles written about itself in some paper or other. wikipediatrix 13:45, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Comment To address the issues raised regarding WP:V, the publications listed in the article are independent and verifiable in full compliance with WP:V. The fact that they cover church-related news makes them no different from any other "industry" publication that neutrally covers a particular subject. Additionally, it was only a lack of effort that fails to turn up other sources. Google News Archive provided several additional references in such "partisan" publications as the Fort Worth Star-Telegram, Dallas Morning News, San Antonio Express-News, Kansas City Star and the Atlanta Journal-Constitution, all of which should pass the WP:V test of even the most rabid deletionists. Alansohn 13:27, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

WP:CORP indicates that the school must be the subject of the articles, not just be "mentioned". Is the school specifically the subject of these articles? And are they actual articles per se, or are they blurbs on the "Religion" page of said papers? wikipediatrix 13:45, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

You could always click on the link provided, and check for yourself. Sunject lines such as "Four leave Southwestern Baptist to join new seminary", "Baptist seminary may find itself at home in Arlington", "Texas Baptists to open independent institute" and "Theology education taken to churches" would all seem to be "about" B. H. Carroll Theological Institute, not just mere "mentions" as your scare quotes seem to fear. Though you (and all others who voted to delete) should click on the link and check the sources for yourself, and not take my word for it. The article has been updated with several of these sources, which have been included in the article with links to the references. Alansohn 14:04, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Scare quotes? Um, no, they were quote quotes. I was quoting the editor above who stated "one of those publishers has thirty-four different articles that mention the institute." And a mention isn't good enough. Many of the articles you refer to came out before the school opened, and are apparently simply passing along what was received in the school's press release. This too, is dealt with in WP:CORP. Again, any hot dog stand in Iowa can accomplish same, but that doesn't make it notable. wikipediatrix 14:43, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

First there are no sources. Then the sources are "biased" baecause they're church-related. Now the sources are indeed from widely-accepted news sources, but came out too soon, before the school opened. Every source listed and provided in the article meets every standard specified by WP:V, WP:RS and especially WP:CORP which specifies that The company or corporation has been the subject of multiple non-trivial published works whose source is independent of the company or corporation itself, which is clearly met by the sources provided. I'd suggest spending more time rooting out Wikipedia's overflowing bounty of Iowa hot dog stand articles. Alansohn 15:02, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Yes, you did quote me saying "one of those publishers has thirty-four different articles that mention the institute." You apparently didn't notice the immediately prior sentence (which you need to read to understand the quoted one, because the antecededent for "those" is in the prior sentence) that says "But we have linked in the article and referenced here, from at least three different independent publishers four different non-trivial published works primarily about the institute." The bit about thirty-four is for people who don't think four is enough and are willing to look at the evidence that has been provided. I think four that meet every test in WP:CORP and WP:INDY is enough to defeat the claim about inadequate sourcing, so I'm not going to waste my time looking at the other thirty-two. If you feel that you need more in order to change your opinion, I point you back to the link I posted above so that you can go read all of them. GRBerry 15:34, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

• Delete per nom. nn school. Carlossuarez46 18:57, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
• Keep. Fort Worth Star-Telegram covered the founding of the school with multiple articles. That's good enough for me. I also agree with Alansohn that the nom's attempts to stigmatize other users is clearly out of order. --JJay 21:08, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
• Keep, passes WP:CORP per GRBerry and JJay. Kappa 07:48, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
• Keep, obviously there exists a pretty substantial amount of verifiable information on this topic. Christopher Parham (talk) 13:36, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
• Comment: Note to closing admin.: ALL some the keep votes are from school inclusionists that voted keep last time. Probably due to this afd being added to the school deletion watch list. That is even though it not being a university, college, public or primary educational that awards degrees or diplomas. Arbusto 17:53, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Reply Note to closing administrator (using Arbusto's "logic"). The exact same individual who created this AfD is the same deletionist who created the original, failed AfD. As a particpant in the original AfD, by his own argument, he should be forbidden to participate in this AfD. Any and all of his comments, particularly his attacks against individuals who have voted to keep, should be ignored in their entirety. For that matter, shouldn't Arbusto have been forbidden from creating a second AfD? Can anyone (let alone Arbusto) show where Wikipedia:Watch/schoolwatch/Schools for deletion archive has a qualification that schools to be included must be "a university, college, public or primary educational that awards degrees or diplomas". Arbusto, please stop finding more excuses and start addressing the facts: Every source listed and provided in the article meets every standard specified by WP:V, WP:RS and especially WP:CORP which specifies that The company or corporation has been the subject of multiple non-trivial published works whose source is independent of the company or corporation itself, which is clearly met by the sources provided. Stop attacking individuals and start addressing the facts that have been presented. Alansohn 20:08, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

  Another False Statement I opined keep this time, and didn't particpate in the last AFD. Ditto for User:Librarianofages. Ditto for User:JJay. Ditto for User:Christopher Parham. Indeed, the only keep opiner to date that participated in the last AFD is User:Alansohn. In addition to being false, the prior comment is a failure to assume good faith. (It also reflects not understanding that AFD is not a vote, it is a discussion, and should be closed on the strength of the arguments, and repeatedly making deletion arguments that are obviously false does nothing for the strength of of ones other arguments.) As for me, the claim that I'm a school inclusionist is easily refuted; read User:GRBerry#Notability. The fourth bullet point is about schools, and this one looks like it will meet my permanent standards for introducing a new educational methodology to seminary education, not just my temporary keep standards. GRBerry 18:33, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

You're right not all. However, this happened last afd when the school inclusionists astrotrufted this afd. Arbusto 19:37, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

• • Could both of you calm down please? Also, GRB as to the matter of introducing a new education methodology, the standard precedent for any other type of article (for example software) is that we only write articles after others have found the introduction of the new thing to be notable. That doesn't seem to have happened yet. JoshuaZ 18:43, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

    • Thanks for the reminder; I'll try to calm down and focus more on my for pay job. I do think those outside the Institute are already starting to see the new methodology as notable, as evidenced by some of the articles linked in the article. But my keep opinion would stand even if that methodology never caught on elsewhere, because there is more than enough independent reliable coverage, some of it from outside the region, which meets my temporary standards. Also, does your prior opinion still stand given the enhanced sourcing the article now has (significantly expanded today)? GRBerry 19:11, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

      • Comment Some comments above violate WP:AGF and WP:NPA, by seeking to discredit the comments of other editors based on their supposed membership in a group of "inclusionists" or deletionists." Talk about the article, not the other editors. I have voted to delete the articles for far more schools and churches than I have voted to keep, but I voted to keep this article.Edison 13:13, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Comment: Using the exact same standards, I could start my own unaccredited "online bible school" out of my living room, send out press releases and get friends in the media to write puff-piece articles about it (not to mention the inevitable articles from religious media), create my own Wikipedia article for it, and point to this AfD if anyone squawks about it. Surely this is not what was intended by WP:CORP. wikipediatrix 18:54, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

  Go ahead, and if you get the secular media in your city to report that you persuaded professors to leave another seminary to teach at yours, I'll be quite happy to opine that the article on yours should be kept. If you can't, there is a real difference in the basis for keeping this real Institute of higher education and your hypothesized online bible school. (That link goes to a source already linked in the article.) GRBerry 19:11, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

How does a professor leaving a seminary for this one make any difference regarding WP:CORP? wikipediatrix 19:15, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Having independent reliable sources write articles primarily about it means that it is notable to the WP:CORP standard "The company or corporation has been the subject of multiple non-trivial published works whose source is independent of the company or corporation itself." This has been discussed extensively above.

In this particular use of the statement, it undercuts the argument that you could create an equivalent school out of your living room, and explains how the hypothetical AFD for your hypothetical school would not be equivalent. This is a real school, not a diploma mill. The evidence on this seems quite clear to me, even looking just at the sources already in the article, never mind the things I saw when I went looking for additional evidence. We have, between the article and this discussion, proof of staff that were college professors before they joined this Institute, a library in excess of 5,000 volumes, a founder that was formerly a college president, and multiple published articles in multiple independent reliable sources that are primarily about the Institute. GRBerry 19:46, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Nowhere in your comments do I see an explanation of why this is "not a diploma mill". Saying it doesn't make it so. I see nothing in WP:CORP that says having college professors and college presidents associated with you makes up for its other shortcomings. (Tell me again, where exactly is this "library in excess of 5,000 volumes" if they don't have a brick-and-mortar building??) wikipediatrix 20:20, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

I said the evidence was in the sources already in the article. But I'll copy it here for your covenience. To quote our article diploma mill "an organization that awards academic degrees and diplomas with very little or no academic study, and without recognition by official accrediting bodies." (Emphasis added.) At the present they lack accreditation, as everyone knows - Wikipedia even sources the article to their statement that they aren't accredited. However, the other test for being a diploma mill is "awards academic degrees and diplomas with very little or no academic study". A cursory glance at their admission requirements shows that they want students with the ability to do academic study. (This is most blatantly obvious for the advance studies program. "For admission each applicant must submit to the Committee of Senior Fellows for Advanced Studies a research paper either previously prepared (an ungraded copy) or prepared especially for the application on a subject in the student’s chosen major field of study. This paper should be 25-35 pages in length. The paper should represent the applicant’s best quality of research and writing. The form and style should follow the 6th edition of Kate Turabian, A Manual for Writers of Term Papers, Theses, and Dissertations. The paper will be graded in terms of form, presentation, and content to determine whether the applicant is capable of doing research and writing at an advanced level." But it is visible in the admission requirements for all three levels of studies.) Since I went to a school where the typical course was 12 units of credit, I have trouble interpreting course units as used elsewhere, but I'm sure that 48 units in 24 courses for their lowest level or 78 units for one of the second level programs (PDF and PDF), plus a recommendation to take half as many courses per term as one would elsewhere (second to last paragraph), is not "very little or no academic study". See also second paragraph of their statement on accreditation, linked in the article.

I don't know where the physical library is; I'm not in the same part of the world as the Institute. I just know that we have reliable evidence that they have it. I'd guess it is in Arlington, Texas, given that they have a center there where the professors are. If you really care, drop them a line. GRBerry 20:52, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

• • wikipediatrix, if I understand correctly, you are acknowledging that the article does meet the WP:V, WP:RS, WP:N and WP:CORP standards, but you are stubbornly insisting that the article be deleted because "Surely this is not what was intended by WP:CORP"?!?!?! Why are you concocting a ludicrous hypothetical slippery slope scenario, and not addressing the arguments that have been presented for the article in question using the guidelines provided. If you feel that WP:CORP needs to be amended, go ahead and work to change it, but for now, it's the gold standard, and it has been met. Alansohn 20:08, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

"Concocting a ludicrous hypothetical slippery slope scenario", eh? Wow. Sorry, not taking the bait. wikipediatrix 20:20, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

No bait to be taken, especially when you can just grab a weiner at one of those mythical Iowa hot dog stands, avoiding the fish breath. Any response to the WP:V, WP:RS, WP:N and WP:CORP standard issues? Alansohn 23:48, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

• Comment: The standards for WP:CORP state that The company or corporation has been the subject of multiple non-trivial published works whose source is independent of the company or corporation itself., all of which was met with the "church" sources and is more than met with the coverage added based on the items retrieved from the Google News archive. The WP:CORP standards were created knowing full well that any new and growing company will make efforts -- including hiring PR people, whose sole purpose is to obtain such coverage -- to get articles published in the media, the more the better. That these articles cover the subject in a neutral manner, describe teh school in the context of its "competitors" and within the current Baptist theological framework, meets the "multiple non-trivial published works" standard. That the school was covered by papers in the Dallas/Fort Worth area could be chalked up to local religious coverage that spits back the contents of a press release (I'm surprised this charge hasn't been made yet), but newspaper articles in serious papers based in Kansas City (519 miles from Arlington) and Atlanta (a whopping 800 miles away) bespeak a newsworthiness that meets the WP:CORP standard, using sources that are inarguably valid per WP:V and WP:RS, which ergo, by definition fulfil the WP:N standard. Whether it's Iowa hot dog stands or basement diploma mills, those nonexistent hypothetical cases are irrelevant to the question posed in this AfD. Alansohn 23:48, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
• Comment: So the question is whether articles from a few years ago published by The Baptist Standard, Biblical Recorder, Fort Worth Star-Telegram, Dallas Morning News are multiple non-trivial published works. I have to say it is a little misleading though because your Dallas Morning News, 5 November 2003 and Fort Worth Star-Telegram, 5 November 2003 are published on the same date on the same topic in the same region so I don't a point in attributing them (as they are in the article now) as different sources, but lets get some more opinions. If you could supply more concrete sources to prove notability for this unaccredited "school," prove it is recognized by the Texas Higher Education Coordinating Board, or demonstrate fame in any way I'll withdraw this. Arbusto 00:21, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Arbitrary section break

 AFD relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so that consensus may be reached.
 Please add new discussions below this notice. Thanks, Arbusto 00:23, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

• Delete Even if you believe that all schools are notable (fortunately I do not) this institute wouldn't qualify. "The institution does not hold classes in any conventional sense. Rather it trains students in 15 “teaching churches” scattered across Texas, as well as through interactive lessons taught over the Internet" Its not a school, its a church afilliated organization and a non-notable one at this point. If they actually get accredited, bring the article back. But we aren't here to speculate on whether it will be accredited as an actual school. Oops, guess I put this in the wrong place the first time around Montco 01:20, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Comment: Relisted?!?! There wasn't enough discussion already?!?!?! We seem to be driving this off of WP:CORP, a standard that the article meets and that makes the issue of accreditation moot. If I recall from previous review of the relevant articles, THECB recognition can take two or more years, and B. H. Carroll Theological Institute can't pursue regional accreditation until it has the required state certification. Alansohn 01:28, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

I'm not sure relisting was a good idea(probably should have gotten closed as a no consensus). However the CORP matter is less than established. I'm not sure everyone is convinced this meets WP:CORP. In particular that these are actually non-trivial sources. Furthermore, if we lack sufficient sourcing to make an article that meets WP:V that's also a legitimate reason to delete, indeed one required by policy. JoshuaZ 01:32, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

C'mon! The school was not only covered by papers in the Dallas/Fort Worth area, but was also listed in newspaper articles in serious papers based in Kansas City (519 miles from Arlington) and Atlanta (a whopping 800 miles away). Which of the Fort Worth Star-Telegram, Dallas Morning News, San Antonio Express-News, Kansas City Star and the Atlanta Journal-Constitution are you questioning in terms of WP:V? What more do you want to see? Alansohn 02:07, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Actually, a nominator relisting a discussion is almost always a bad idea. Relisting should be left to a closing admin who can decide whether more discussion increases the odds of having a clear consensus. Some participants at Deletion Review consider relisting by a partisan as reason to overturn a closure. GRBerry 14:47, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

• Delete per crabapplecove. TJ Spyke 01:37, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment: Your vote makes it appear that you haven't read past the first few paragraphs of this AfD. Can I strongly suggest that you read the article, as it has been revised significantly after the AFD was created. Alansohn 02:07, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Delete non-notable, marginal church organization; not even a school in any meaningful sense. Making the local paper Getting a couple of articles printed in a couple of papers three years ago does not make anything notable. Opabinia regalis 01:55, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Please assume good faith. Your first edit on this page was an attack on me. Stop this. Arbusto 02:10, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Let's get this straight; In extremely poor faith, you open an AfD just weeks after your first attempt to delete this article failed. You write up an AfD that starts out stating that "The last afd was "no consensus" due to inclusionists claiming two church publications make it notable", attacking those (including myself) who made good faith arguments to retain the article and genuine efforts to improve this article. Please read your own explicit attacks in the nomination before accusing others of attacks. Alansohn 03:09, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

• Keep (edit conflict) Holy well-poisoning, Batman. Calm down, everyone. Yes, persistent school inclusionists are tiresome and yes this really isn't a school, but the issue is notability and verifiability, as JoshuaZ rightly points out (though I disagree with his ultimate conclusion). Let's look at the sources to see if they establish these. The "church sources" are articles in independent wire services or publications that appeal to Baptists; however, there is no apparent connection with the seminary itself. They are independent and seem credible to me. Also, this has been covered by major daily newspapers. The sources (and, since Uncle G doesn't seem to be participating in this discussion, let me be the one to point out that you have to actually read the sources) noted the controversy surrounding this organization: it was founded by four moderate Baptist professors forced out of another seminary when it was taken over by fundamentalists (who dispute the propriety of this college using the name of the other seminary's founder). The coverage in the mainstream and religious press generated by this controversy makes this subject notable. (I cannot believe my first edit after coming back from a longer-than-expected wikibreak is to keep a freaking school!) JChap2007 02:19, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Keep We need to keep cool heads here. I was ready to vote delete right away on this one, but further research bears out. By the so-called "tests" this seems non notable on face value, but deeper digging DOES turn up multiple, independent coverage. The various "tests" we apply for notability are meant to get us LOOKING for notability, but they by themselves do not mean that something fails the primary notability criterion. There is multiple coverage, it is covered in a fairly extensive way, and by independant sources (I know it's "religious" press; but then again you look for music reviews in the music press, don't you???). Just because it fails a guideline doesn't mean it is AUTOMATICALLY not notable. It means we should check it out. When one checks it out, it passes. --Jayron32 03:56, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Keep. A Google News Archive search indicates that there are reliable sources for this see [8]. Capitalistroadster 04:08, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

• Delete. Looks like an insignificant little school to me. Even if it were accredited-- I don't think it would be notable enough for WP. Nephron  T|C 04:15, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment Is this Delete based on a failure of the article to meet an actual exisitng Wikipedia policy, or is this merely based on your original research? Alansohn 05:39, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Keep per Alansohn, Capitalistroadster, and GRBerry. I could care less how many Yahoo hits you can or cannot find, this institution is easily notable enough for a project which endeavors to be the complete sum of all human knowledge. Silensor 05:54, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Delete-sources are necessary to write about an already notable topic, but do not in themselves establish notability. Unaccredited diploma mills would rarely be of any note, and this one doesn't seem any exception. Seraphimblade 06:53, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Exactly. As per my previous point about a hot dog stand in Iowa, just because something has press coverage sources they can point to still doesn't make something notable. My Uncle Ned has been in the newspaper many, many times - more so than this diploma mill - but he still isn't notable. wikipediatrix 13:20, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

• Keep per Alansohn.  ALKIVAR™ ☢ 07:15, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Keep, seems notable, nicely referenced. Everyking 07:32, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Keep per Alansohn. bbx 07:33, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Weak Keep It barely scrapes in. If it was accredited, i may remove the 'weak'. Qaanaaq 07:43, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Keep per Alansohn and Jayron32. I looked at both debates and as they went on, those arguing for deletion just ignored more and more of the citations of independent verifiable sources. Renomination a mere month after the first discusson closed also looks very suspicious to me. Quendus 11:35, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Delete Strong Delete. Absolutely no recent GNews Hits (so lack of recency and importance). The only article that links here is about the school's founder. Without accredidation, it's just simply not a school (any more than Catholic diaconate formation programs, which confer tons of knowledge -- and ultimately a ministry on students -- through a rigorous academic experience too). There are plenty of things that meet WP:V (which this does) (changed my mind, see below) that are still not notable enough to include in an encyclopedia. Once the school is accredidated, recreate as needed. SkerHawx 12:26, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Comment: Unfortunately, there is no criteria whatsoever that requires a school to be "accreditated" to have an article, nor that articles have to be "recent" to be valid. As you acknowledge that WP:V is satisfied, and that the sources meet WP:RS, which part of WP:CORP is not met by this article? Alansohn 12:34, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

• Comment: First off, WP:CORP is a guideline, not the Bible, and not WP policy. There's a gut check about whether something is notable. 400 students? I can name thousands of high schools with more. Coverage in the Fort Worth paper? I can provide tens of thousands of articles if local news coverage is all it takes to be notable enough to be an entry in an encyclopedia. Per your comment, there's also no criteria that says that I can't use a lack of accredidation and any shred of recent coverage to help form my opinion as to whether this Institute matters beyond its own walls. Lack of accredidation means it's not a school that can confer degrees, which means that it's in essence a Bible Study group. Typically, notable organizations will have ongoing coverage or be historically significant. This fails both. And by the way, the Dallas News article cited is future-looking ("hopes to start classes", "will be based somewhere between Dallas and Fort Worth", etc. Both Ft. Worth newspaper articles focus on the four founders resigning their prior posts and joining this new project prior to the Institute ever teaching a class. No secular (i.e. "independent") news coverage exists after the Institute is founded, so I'm not sure that helps the article's case. SkerHawx 13:44, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

• Further, here are some precedents, all of which pass WP:V but were deleted. The point is, they failed notability: Texas Baptist College, Baptist College of Ministry, Kansas City College and Bible School. Of particular interest is this precedent: International School of Management that cites a host of other precedents. The question you asked made me dig a bit deeper and do more research, and as such I've changed to a strong delete. Peace. SkerHawx 13:44, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

• • Comment I think there is a false standard invoked here, that an article must be deleted if it has insufficient "recent GNews Hits" This is no Wikinews. Many birds, Kings, high schools, and State Highways have no recent GNews Hits either, but they somehow retain their articles. Edison 13:23, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

• Comment. The article doesn't cite one piece of independent news (i.e. community news) after the Institute is founded. SkerHawx 13:44, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

• Response On what basis are you claiming that the 2006 article from the news bureuae Associated Baptist Press [9] is not independent. There is no link between the ABP and the Institute. This independent coverage has been a source for the Wikipedia article since before this AFD began. The claim that both are Baptist is not a serious claim that they are related parties; as reading our coverage of Baptists could tell you. Baptists just aren't as organized or like minded as most other denominations are; they are splintery like the Independent Catholic Churches. Per Baptists in the United States, there are four separate major groups of Baptist denominations. The ABP self describes in part as "Working out of our Jacksonville, Fla.- based headquarters, and with bureaus in Washington and Dallas, ABP provides daily coverage of Baptist news, news from the nation's capital, and other general news and information of concern to Christians in the U.S. and around the world." GRBerry 14:42, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

• Response. I understand how loosely affiliated Baptist Churches are. But the article's author, Marv Knox, is the editor of the Baptist Standard, and the article you cite by the ABP is a direct copy of an article printed by Knox's Baptist Standard [10]. Another "independent" article cited (The Biblical Recorder) is written by Mark Wingfield, who worked for the Baptist Standard directly under Marv Knox [11]. The third article is by Ken Camp. Camp replaced Wingfield directly under Knox at the Standard when Wingfield returned to ministry. So, although Baptist churches are very loosely affiliated, it seems all three of the authors of the four referenced articles currently work for, or worked for, the Baptist Standard (and they all worked together and know each other intimately). That's not independent. Two of the other references provided are directly from the school's web site. Okay, now deep breath... Take a look at this article Baptist General Convention of Texas. Guess who one of the founding members of the BGCT was? That's right - B.H. Carroll. Guess what the official publication of the BGCT is? You got it -- the Baptist Standard. I hope that helps clarify what I meant. Peace! SkerHawx 16:37, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Response: So let's get this straight, even though the article meets each and every criteria of WP:V, and the sources meet WP:RS, all of which satisfy WP:CORP, one of the most widely agreed upon standards in Wikipedia, if not THE Bible, we should ignore all of this. Why? Because each and every author of every single one of the articles published about the school are all part of the vast right-wing Baptist Cabal. Somehow, despite the fact that the Fort Worth Star-Telegram, Dallas Morning News, San Antonio Express-News, Kansas City Star and the Atlanta Journal-Constitution are all independent nationally-recognized publications, with editors and publishers looking over reporter's shoulder's, each member of the cabal was able to pull the wool over their eyes and get an article published. Send your theories to Dan Brown, it sounds like a great plot for a new book. But, other than that, it's pure unsupported original research. You'd be hard pressed to find any group of reporters covering any one industry -- Recording, Iowa Hot Dog Stands or Baptist churches -- who haven't worked together at some point in their career. Alansohn 17:30, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

• Reply I'm sorry, I don't see any citations from the San Antonio, Kansas City, or Atlanta papers in this article. The Dallas and Ft. Worth papers are responding to a press conference covering a notable event (the abrupt resignation of four faculty members at SBTS, as below.) And I searched the papers you mentioned, and they all have articles from (only) November 2003 indicating the same information (faculty resigns, to form new institute - note future tense). SkerHawx 17:42, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

• Further note: Two of the three secular articles cited are from Nov 5, 2003 (Dallas & Ft. Worth papers). These articles were covering a press conference [12] on Novemeber 4, 2003 and seem to be covering the abrupt departure of the four faculty members from Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary as much (or more) as covering the new school. Of course, both articles are (as mentioned above) future tense, since no such Institute existed yet. I'm not paying $2.95 to see the full text of the third article, but the only visible paragraph just repeats the information already known from the first two. Look, the Baptist Standard is the official paper of the BGCT, and all of the religious articles covering this came from the Baptist Standard or its writers. All but one of the articles was published in the Baptist Standard directly (see my citations above). This isn't a conspiracy, it's a Public relations strategy. WP:V is crumbling on this one. Take care, SkerHawx 17:38, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

• Almost convincing Where this falls apart is the link between those editors and the Institute. Yes, the Institute is named after one of the founders of the BGCT. But he was also a founder of the Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary, from which the staff broke away. We wouldn't say that the Institute was affiliated with SWBTS because of using one of their founder's names. The argument was enough to go make me look and see if the BGCT supports the Institute. The BGCT's page on the schools they support does not mention this Institute. The results of a search at the BGCT's page don't show any sort of affiliation. They show trivial mentions a scholarshiop given to a student at the institute, a member of the Institute staff leading a tour group in the U.K, an event being taught by folks from Baylor University held in part at the site of this Institute, that the Institute is one of ninety-seven exhbitors at the 2006 convention, and one of nine schools of higher education hosting a special event at that convention. (The policies of the BGCT do allow non affiliated organizations to exhibit, I checked, and the hotel chain exhibiting is adequate evidence of that.) I also checked the Institute's web You've convinced me that a lot of the articles were written by people who know each other. You've also convinced me that those writers are the world experts on what events among Texas Baptists are newsworthy. You failed to convince me that they have any affiliation with the Institute, which is what independence is all about; see WP:INDY. So I continue to conclude that the articles are by independent sources. GRBerry 18:48, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

• Last one This will be my last post on this AfD discussion, simply because I'm just not that passionate about whether or not this article is ultimately deleted. I'll answer your question and then just let the facts speak for themselves. Everyone is welcome to vote for a delete or a keep. Alas, you asked for some more detail, so I'll respond this last time. Here you go... Check out the BGCT member church web site [13] and cross-reference it with the institute's teaching churches [14]. A 100% match on all 17 churches. Charles Wade, executive director of BGCT, welcomed the Institute in "...our ongoing effort to train effective Christian leaders..." [15]. Dr. Russell Dilday, one of the founders of the Institute was a former president of the BGCT [16]. This is the bottom line ... the Institute and the Baptist General Convention of Texas have the same deposit of faith. Their visions are aligned, whether or not BGCT explicitly supports the Institute or not. The Baptist Standard is an official publication of the BGCT, and as a religious newspaper it writes from a certain paradigm. There's nothing wrong with that, it's just not unbiased. (If Catholics in Atlanta created a Catholic Theological Institute, the Archidiocese of Atlanta's official paper (The Georgia Bulletin) would cover it (so long as it was in line with Catholic teachings). I wouldn't consider that to be an independent source. Nor would I consider other Catholic publications an authoritative source to help establish WP:V. So I'm just saying that the beliefs of the official voice of the BGCT and the beliefs of the Institute are 100% on target. As such, the BGCT (and therefore the Baptist Standard) have a vested interest in promoting the Institute. That's all. Peace, my friend. SkerHawx 20:38, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

• Keep - What's the point in deleting this ? Above users have made things pretty clear --NRS | ^T/_M\^B 12:38, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Keep We are not a regulatory agency, nor are we interviewing graduates of the school as potential employees, so even if it were a giant unaccredited diploma mill, we should only look at notability, not legitimacy. This is the same principle on which we have articles about religions without having to prove the truth of their claimed miracles and the existence of their particular god. Similarly we have articles about hoaxes and pseudoscience, without certifying the truth of the claims. We are not the arbiters of truth, just of verifiable notoriety. The school has faculty formerly with the mainstream Southern Baptist seminary, who were pushed out by the fundamentalist takeover of that denomination. The school is widely mentioned in Baptist publications, has 400 students, and trains them in 15 churches. It appears to be notable.Edison 12:52, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Delete As per original nom. The only thing I take away after reading all of this mess (and losing some sanity as a result) is that the school is *still* not very notable. And we (the users and editors) *are* a regulatory agency, at least in terms of what gets posted and kept on Wikipedia. It doesn't meet WP:CORP any more than a diploma mill does. --In ur base, killing ur dorfs 13:07, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Delete As per nom. And let's get this straight - the B. H. Carroll Theological Institute is NOT a school. That's a thing that kids go to and every school is notable and important in its community. It is argued often that every school is therefore worthy of an article in Wikipedia. I change my mind about this every week! But, I repeat, this is NOT a school - it is a non-notable, unapproved organisation with no classrooms. Emeraude 16:59, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

• Comment Anyone who thinks this meets WP:V should take a look at Skyerhawx's above comments. JoshuaZ 17:02, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

• Keep Notable, verifiable, probably a sketchy enterprise (i.e., not really a 'school,' but more like a 'ministry' of some kind), but the article is quite clear about the lack of accreditation. Auto movil 17:55, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Weak Keep may be notable enough. I would err on the side of keeping it. --Kf4bdy ^{talk contribs} 17:56, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Keep this page meets all of the rules to keep for a business. Audiobooks 18:33, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

• Acts 20:35 & Psalm 2:4 There is something very odd about this site. It seems to be written by someone who wants to paint the instituion in the worst possible light - perhaps the intention is to get it deleted for some reason? Having looked there appears to be three institutions trying to suggest they inherit the Caroll name. I've checked the web site, it looks pukka - it even does greek and that's not for the feeble minded. I've sent an email to the institute suggesting they look at the web page.

--Mike 19:46, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

• Weak Keep This appears to be fairly sizeable institution, if rather new. Comment: Arbustoo and others seem to focus on accreditation as a sole criterion for whether something counts as a legitimate higher education institution. I agree that for an ordinary college, that is a good rule. However, for a seminary or other "vocational" type schools (perhaps, say, a school of auto mechanics) I think the rule is not always applicable - the students' prospective employers (in this case, Baptist congregrations) don't care if the school is accredited, they want someone educated by a group that they themselves trust, and who can demonstrate their knowledge of the field. So, I think we need to focus on other factors - age, size, prominent graduates, connections with established denominations, press, etc. On another point, there also seems to be a tradition of distance education in theological education - probably because prospective ministers can't afford to attend a college full-time. I agree that this makes the institutions less notable, but I don't think it should disqualify them, just because there are fraudulent institutions that use the same methods. --Brianyoumans 20:57, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

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The result was delete. - Mailer Diablo 06:47, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Ark 22

Non-notable fanmade game, fails WP:SOFTWARE. Andre (talk) 00:21, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

• Delete not seeing any reliable sources. Andrew Lenahan - Starblind 01:09, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Delete NN, might deserve a bullet point in Game Maker it's game engine --Steve 01:27, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Note: This debate has been added to the list of CVG deletions. -- moe.RON ^{Let's talk | done} 01:55, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Delete fangame, the end. Danny Lilithborne 01:56, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Delete. Google yields 17,800 hits. That is small but sizable following. That said, IMHO it still doesn't meet in WP:SOFTWARE. Nephron  T|C 04:20, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Delete per nom, though Danny's comments pretty much mirror my personal attitude towards fanmade games. EVula 05:04, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Delete No verifiable assertions of notability. The Kinslayer 10:28, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Weak Keep If Google is showing 14,400,000 hits, then no need to delete. Also, if other games can remain in Wiki, there's no point in deleting this --NRS | ^T/_M\^B 12:43, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

• I'm afriad I question the validity of that google search. 'Ark 22' is a very generic name so it stands to reason that most of those results have nothing to do with this game. How about providing direct links to some of those websites that establish notability? And as for the other games arguement, I feel judging any article in relation to another is a very poor thing to do, as articles should only be judged in relation to Wiki policies and guidelines, and secondly, most fan games are now being examined with a view to deletion if notability is not provided. The other games are usually only being 'allowed' insofar as no-one has had time to look at a specific article, but check the CVG project page to see just how many fan games are currently at AfD, and more are sure to be nominated soon.The Kinslayer 12:53, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• First off, you forgot to add quotes around your search term, and even with quotes a search for "Ark 22" brings mostly unrelated stuff, e.g. "... they came to Henderson from Hot Springs, Ark. 22 years ago..." and lots more. A More reasonable search specific to this game would be "Ark 22" +"Game Maker" which brings us 43 unique Google hits. Andrew Lenahan - Starblind 15:47, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

• delete nn Audiobooks 18:36, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Weak delete Nice article, but I don't think it meets notability req's. P.B. Pilhet / Talk 19:26, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Delete - I did a Google search for "Ark 22" game and received only 1080 hits. Nothing to suggest notability, however. Torinir _{( Ding my phone My support calls E-Support Options )} 20:48, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Keep The notability criterion is a subjective argument, which does nothing other than put the burden of proof on the article's author every time a discussion of deletion comes up. The article is notable because it has actual content. Rōnin 22:32, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

• Comment Please read the verifiability policy. Self-published material, because the threshold for creating them is very low, should have more rigorous requirements for verifiability (never mind notability, which requires multiple non-trivial third-party instances of verifiability). The reloaded interview is not sufficient, because most of the article is asking the creator questions (the content that the creator answers is considered primary source material). The fact that it's published on the web should not make the verifiability requirements less stringent then other forms of self-publishing. ColourBurst 23:46, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

• Delete per nominator and previous comments. --Kunzite 05:19, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

• Delete per nom. Anomo 09:51, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
• Keep NOT A FUCKING FANGAME!--=='''[[User:E-Magination''' ==]] 12:50, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
• Delete - fails WP:V, WP:RS. Wickethewok 19:32, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

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The result was delete. - Mailer Diablo 06:48, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Mario War

Non-notable fanmade game, fails WP:SOFTWARE. Andre (talk) 00:28, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

• Delete Two-sentance substub about a freeware game, no claims to notability included. Andrew Lenahan - Starblind 01:12, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Delete, NN --Steve 01:28, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Note: This debate has been included in the list of Japan-related deletions. -- Ig yqzs 01:55, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

• Note: This debate has been added to the list of CVG deletions. -- moe.RON ^{Let's talk | done} 01:56, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Itsa me Delete Danny Lilithborne 01:56, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Delete per nom. EVula 05:03, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Delete with a lightning powerup. Daveydweeb (^chat/_patch) 05:25, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Speedy Delete - Red koopa shell this non-notable unverifiable fan game post haste! The Kinslayer 10:15, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Delete, I don't know about red koopa shell, maybe green shell it. I say delete as per nominator and Starblind. 147.10.248.218 12:51, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Sorry that was me but I didn't realize I wasn't logged in. James086 ^{Talk | Contribs|Currently up for Editor Review!} 12:55, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Speedy Delete Stub about a fan game, need I say more? Outlaw640 14:21, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Keep I find the article notable. Rōnin 22:33, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment Would you care to share why? I'd be happy to change my vote if presented with adequate evidence. EVula 04:59, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
• Delete Self-published things are rarely notable. Self-published items either need to have multiple major outside and independent sources of recognition. (Or the author has to be notale, though in that case, the self-published item should likely be described on the author's page.) --Kunzite 05:02, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
• Delete - Looks like it fails WP:V, WP:RS. Wickethewok 19:33, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

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The result was delete. Luna Santin 08:39, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Super Mario War

Non-notable fanmade game, fails WP:SOFTWARE. Andre (talk) 00:26, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

• Delete the usual: no reliable sources. Also, most of the article is basically a game guide. Andrew Lenahan - Starblind 01:13, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Note: This debate has been included in the list of Japan-related deletions. -- Ig yqzs 01:55, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

• Note: This debate has been added to the list of CVG deletions. -- moe.RON ^{Let's talk | done} 01:56, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Itsame Delete Danny Lilithborne 01:57, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Delete per nom. Listing on SMW will need to be removed upon deletion. EVula 05:03, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Delete w/banananana. Daveydweeb (^chat/_patch) 05:29, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Delete per nom. --Masamage 08:07, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

• Delete - A promotional page for another non-notable unverifiable fan game. Wikipedia:Wikipedia is not for things made up in school one day. The Kinslayer 10:14, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Keep, not that anyone cares. Rōnin 22:33, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment As I've said to you on another AfD, I'd be happy to change my vote if presented with evidence of notability. EVula 05:00, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

• KEEP Plenty of evidence of notability. Let's not be so quick to delete based on arbitrary labels of "fanware". Justinpwilsonadvocate 16:07, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment Where is the plentiful evidence? EVula 16:16, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
    • Comment Please stop stalking me, User:EVula. And the evidence is in the references. Thanks. Justinpwilsonadvocate 18:15, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
      • No one here has the time, energy, or desire to stalk you. Please assume good faith and realize that EVula is one of the many people who keeps an eye on the Articles For Deletion page itself. --Masamage 18:18, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
        • I am referrin to a pattern of behavior re: me that goes far, far beyond this discussion. Justinpwilsonadvocate 19:16, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
      • Ignoring the stalking bit, I have to point out that there aren't any references in the article. There are four external links, which all point back to (ultimately) the same website. Again, where is the evidence of notability? EVula 19:39, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
• Delete - Per Starblind. Wickethewok 19:34, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
• Delete No independant sources that misses our inclusion guidelines for software and our inclusion guidelines for web content. To top that off, most of the article is a game guide and Wikipedia is not a game guide. --Kunzite
• KEEP This game is in fact notable - it's been updated many times and collaborated upon, has been featured on Digg, and is linked to on thousands of websites. Google it! eyesnapped
  • Comment The fact that something is updated or is part of a collaborative project is not a valid reason to keep. Being featured or having links on a "social bookmarking" site or a search engine also do not indicate notability. Do you have any references? Can you show us multiple, non-trivial mentions in media or scholarly articles? Has the site won a major award? --Kunzite 03:58, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
  • Just to note (and I'm not saying this to imply any sort of inferiority), user has less than 20 edits. Andre (talk) 04:37, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. - Mailer Diablo 06:49, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Might and Magic Tribute: Book of Ceth

Non-notable fanmade game, fails WP:SOFTWARE. Andre (talk) 00:24, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

• Reluctant delete; maybe when it gets a bit more media coverage this could change. PurplePlatypus 00:56, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Delete same reasons as the rest of these (reliable sources, etc) but this one has the added bonus of not even being a completed game yet. Andrew Lenahan - Starblind 01:15, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

• Note: This debate has been added to the list of CVG deletions. -- moe.RON ^{Let's talk | done} 01:56, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Delete per nom. Danny Lilithborne 01:57, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Delete per nom. EVula 05:01, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Delete - Non-notable unsourced fan game. The Kinslayer 10:05, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Delete as nominator. Combination 12:45, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Keep - All information here is notable, that's why someone added it. The burden of proof needs to be shifted to prevent this mass deletion of articles. Rōnin 22:34, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Delete - Lack of reliable sources. Ronin - why should the burden be shifted? That wouldn't really make any sense. Wickethewok 19:35, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was No Consensus, defaults to keep. Naconkantari 18:12, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Super Mario: Blue Twilight DX

Non-notable fanmade game, fails WP:SOFTWARE. Andre (talk) 00:25, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

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Keep WHAT!??!!! Deleting Sonic: The Fated Hour is one thing, but Super Mario: Blue Twilight DX is definitely notable! It showed up on TV, for crying out loud! How can anybody be considering deleting this article?!?!!??? I'm off to contact Blaze... Just you wait!!!! --Luigifan 00:19, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

• Obviously my vote is strong keep, I mean, G4TV dedicated an entire segment of Attack of the Show to the game - that passes notability. And what about bandwidth? Over 300,000 downloads and 7 terrabytes of bandwidth. Surely, that, too, passes notability. Most commercial games are considered a success when they sell over 250,000 copies of a game; well, 300,000 people have acquired my game. I need to say nothing further on the matter. BlazeHedgehog 00:29, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
  • According to WP:SOFTWARE, to pass notability, this game must be "the subject of multiple non-trivial published works whose source is independent of the company itself." As far as I can tell, Attack of the Show is the only such example -- and that show often runs segments on things like Flash movies, Internet memes, "cool websites," and other assorted non-notable, non-encyclopedic ephemera. Add to that a bit of a vanity concern and I think we have a clear delete. No hard feelings, but Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a directory of cool games and links. Andre (talk) 00:43, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
  • It was NOT just Attack of the Show. Several gaming websites gave it great reviews, as well, and possibly even a few magazines. Face it, the game's famous. Delete the article, and you're probably going to have your head ripped off by a horde of rabid fans. --Luigifan 00:52, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
    • These reviews and magazines are not cited. Andre (talk) 00:55, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Delete (formerly Weak keep) per Attack of the Show coverage and claim of having "been featured in many magazines". These magazines need to actually be cited within the article to "count", but it's a start. Weak keep for now, with the possibility of a full keep or weak delete depending on how the magazine coverage thing turns out. Andrew Lenahan - Starblind 00:49, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
  • I have updated my vote. Per below, it seems the magazine coverage is trivial and a mention on Attack of the Show apparently isn't such a big deal after all. I'd also like to point out that the conduct of the article's supporters on this Afd has been truly abysmal. Granted, that is certainly no reason to delete in and of itself, but it certainly doesn't help what is already a borderline case at best. Andrew Lenahan - Starblind 02:20, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Keep The game was also in numerous published magazines. The number of downloads, and bandwidth it's used should be more than enough to take care of it's notability.

And Andre... You saying, "Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a directory for cool games and links" is so hypocritical. The majority of the wiki articles would never appear in a published encyclopedia, and you can't keep trying to make wiki a, "Standard Encyclopedia" because it's obviously become much more than that. --Ashuku 00:55, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

I don't understand what hypocrisy is involved here. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia and articles must be encyclopedic. Also, observers, please note that this user has under 50 edits. Andre (talk) 01:02, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

• • Its hypocritical because there are tons of articles on wikipedia like this, which are just as notable, and get keeps all the time. And if you read what I said, I clearly called it, "Much more than a standard encyclopedia".

Also, stating that I have under 50 edits was ignorant. Since when does the amount of edits I have reflect on my knowledge of wikipedia. Or Anything for that matter? Thats like saying a higher post count on a forum makes you a better member.

I read articles, and thats all that should matter. Fuck you and your edit count. --Ashuku 01:27, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Edit counts are an important aspect of AFD. Please see Wikipedia:Suffrage. Andre (talk) 01:34, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

And, how does that matter? Like I said, Andre, you're outnumbered... Blaze and I are both respectable users. I don't see how you can expect to win. --Luigifan 01:06, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Ashuku, I said pretty much the same thing as you... only with fewer profanities. --Luigifan 01:30, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Honestly, I don't want, or need, an idiot like you, who vandalizes user pages, to try and defend me. --Ashuku 01:33, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

• "Trivial" is such a broad term, though. What Person A considers trivial, Person B may not. What about Kotaku? Voted the number one gaming blog for Spike TV's Videogame Awards 2005. They mentioned MarioWeen when it first came out, too. Googling it returns 264,000 sites. Is that trivial to you? Because it's not trivial to me. I'll try to find the magazine scans I have (I saved most of them, but not in a unified folder or anything, and they lack identifying file names, so it's going to take me a while to track them down). Also, Luigifan: Chill out. BlazeHedgehog 00:57, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

• • Triviality is not in reference to the source itself, but the nature of the mention. Gaming blogs in particular are not reliable sources for notability. They also have a strong tendency to, like Attack of the Show, write about non-notable ephemera. Andre (talk) 01:02, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

• • • I want to see this magazine coverage actually cited in the article. I'm seeing a lot of general claims but very few specifics. Andrew Lenahan - Starblind 01:07, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
      • What do you mean it lacks specifics? I didn't know I was supposed to list every single last magazine that had a blurb of my game in it. I listed the bigger name ones I could think of; GamesMaster, for example, the largest gaming magazine in the UK. BlazeHedgehog 01:20, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
        • The GamesMaster mention is clearly trivial - it's just one sentence and a screenshot. It is not sufficient to establish any sort of notability. Andre (talk) 01:22, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
          • Trivial to you, maybe. But hey, a mention is a mention, as far as I'm concerned, and combined with G4 and Kotaku...? Come on, now. BlazeHedgehog 01:33, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
      • I'm not certain, but I'm pretty sure hardcore gamer magazine, and EGM had little tidbits with it in them. --Ashuku 01:12, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
        • This is not sufficient to establish notability. Andre (talk) 01:15, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
        • Calm down, guys. Blaze said he's get the magazines, it was just going to take a while. Don't lose your heads over this!!!! --Luigifan 01:14, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
        • You should probably take your own advice =P --Ashuku 01:17, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• You're alone, Andre... allooonnnnneeeeeeee... Do you feel the sunshine? --Luigifan 01:00, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• keep How could this possibly be up for being deleted? It's incredibly popular. If you take this down, then start taking down THOUSANDS more that aren't being considered right now. --71.193.47.23 01:11, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
  • I don't know about thousands, but I just nominated quite a few fangames. See Special:Contributions/Andrevan. Andre (talk) 01:15, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

There. [[User:Andrevan#ANDREVAN IS A FANGAME HATER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!|I believe I've made my point]]... I'm terribly sorry that I had to resort to vandalism, but Andre isn't listening to reason. --Luigifan 01:21, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Luigifan refers to this diff in which he vandalized my user page. Please do not vandalize user pages. Andre (talk) 01:26, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

• Luigifan, you're a tard. Vandalizing someones user page isn't going to make the article not get deleted.--Ashuku 01:30, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• By itself, that wasn't meant to change his mind; only to get his attention, and to make him realize what sort of impression he was giving. --Luigifan 01:32, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Luigifan, your actions on this AFD are possibly doing more harm for my case than good. Please refrain from acting like a spastic kindergardener and let the big boys debate what matters. I don't need a cheerleader. BlazeHedgehog 01:40, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
    • ':< Oops... --Luigifan 01:44, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Keep I think that 95% of fan-made games are not notable, but this is one of those few exceptions. It was even featured on Attack of the Show. TJ Spyke 01:42, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
  • • A, TJ... you're the guy trying to squash SRB2!!! Well, I'm glad you like Marioween. Just a warning; Andrevan tends to ignore logic and reasoning. Even after I gave him a wake-up call. --Luigifan 01:44, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Note: This debate has been included in the list of Japan-related deletions. -- Ig yqzs 01:55, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

• Note: This debate has been added to the list of CVG deletions. -- moe.RON ^{Let's talk | done} 01:56, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Itsame Delete Luigifan needs to calm the hell down. Danny Lilithborne 02:00, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Yeah, I let myself get riled up, and that's my fault; I'll readily admit that I overreacted. However, Andrevan's being a bigot. He refuses to change his point of view, even with me, Blaze, and several others prodding solid evidence of this game's notability up his eyeballs. I've already calmly warned him to give us a fair shake. If Andrevan ignores this, he will suffer the consequences. --Luigifan 02:06, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
    • You obviously haven't calmed down. Don't sling threats around. Danny Lilithborne 02:13, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
    • I do not understand what you want me to do. I still don't believe you have evidence of notability as per WP:SOFTWARE. Attack of the Show appears to be the only non-trivial mention (and even it is possibly quite trivial) and certainly the GamesMaster mention is trivial. I am not about to change my vote. Andre (talk) 02:14, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
      • Gamesmaster is only trivial to you because you're not British. And because you're determined to see things your way. It's the top gaming magazine in the UK; sure it only got a page's worth, but for a fangame, that's impressive. You say we've behaved poorly; well, I've called in UnDeRsCoRe, and he should be able to evaluate that. Like I said, I realize that I let myself get carried away; however, I'm not slinging threats around. I'm merely stating that Andrevan should be more open-minded, and that I'm prepared to act should he fail to develop this virtue. --Luigifan 02:44, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
        • • As I said earlier, triviality is not measuring the importance of the publication, but the prominence of the mention. The mention of this fangame was one sentence with no exposition or explanation. Andre (talk) 03:25, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
        • Man, what did I tell you? Knock it off. You aren't helping me at all. BlazeHedgehog 02:51, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
          • It's about time I stepped into the shadows... the Ninja of Peace will help you from afar... Do not worry, Blaze. Andrevan will treat you as an equal before long. --Luigifan 02:54, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
            • Strong Keep- Why on earth should this be deleted?! I mean, for one, it has been featured on magazines and a TV show, dosen't that qualify it as notable?! If we manage to find the said magazines then BOOM! we have a winner. Anyway, everyone (or mostly everyone) here thinks it's notable, and most "discussions" for deletion usually are decided by the number of people who think it is notable. And, no offense, Luigifan, you shouldn't go to such extremes. I don't wanna sound like I'm nagging, but it'll do more damage than good if you do that. Try to be civillized and maybe we'll be able to hold up a persusive argument. I mean, I wouldn't agree with someone who vandalized a page or is using profanity. If you vandalize and yell, how does that make you any better than those you are against? (I sound like something out of the Bible. I feel so cliched.) UnDeRsCoRe 03:01, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
              • As I said, for now, I am content to watch from afar... and to step in when needed. The Ninja of Peace will assist you from afar. --Luigifan 03:04, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
                • Unfortunately, I am having trouble finding anything more than the GamesMaster scan. It WAS mentioned in Hardcore Gamer Magazine, but it was really trivial - one of the editors mentioned it under "Games I am playing this month". Which really, really sucks. I thought I at least copied the images in when I packed up the MarioWeen source and burned it to a CD, but they aren't there, either. I don't know where else to look unless I go through each and every individual image on my HDD - of which there are thousands. It would take me weeks (possibly even months) to go through them all. BlazeHedgehog 03:17, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
                  • I'm sorry to hear that. Until then, I think we're left with a lack of notability. Andre (talk) 03:25, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
                    • Keep in mind, the standards for a fangame are different than the standards for a commercial game. If this game had actually been released by Nintendo, it would have been all over the news. --Luigifan 12:38, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

• Delete per nom, since there are no citations anyway. Weak delete --Zeno McDohl ^(talk) 03:02, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

There's a picture of that G4 show in the article. That's good enough to classify it as a way to "prove" something. UnDeRsCoRe 03:05, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Not good enough, see WP:CITE on how to add citations. --Zeno McDohl ^(talk) 03:07, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Not citing its resources isnt a good reason to delete an article It's easily fixable. Not to mention it has all its sources in there, just not gathered at the bottom of the page. --Ashuku 03:13, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Well then if it's fixed, I will probably change my "vote". --Zeno McDohl ^(talk) 03:13, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

What, are you accusing Blaze of using Photoshop? A picture is worth a thousand words. --Luigifan 03:14, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

What? I never said anything about Photoshop. Stop throwing around accusations. --Zeno McDohl ^(talk) 03:16, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

You doubted tha testimony of a picture. Photoshop is the first thing that came to mind that could produce such a flawed testimony. However, that is not the case in this instance. --Luigifan 03:18, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Again, what? I did not doubt that picture, and I never said that. --Zeno McDohl ^(talk) 03:19, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

You said that the picture was not as good as a citation. I said that a picture was worth a thousand words. Clearly, you do not understand the wisdom of the ancients. --Luigifan 03:24, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

The picture is not a proper citation here. --Zeno McDohl ^(talk) 03:26, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

I have referenced everything I could find. I hope it pleases you. BlazeHedgehog 03:50, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Well... The # of downloads really isn't going to show the notability, and the line about "and more" is WP:AWW. I think the Gamesmaster citation needs to have the page #, and I really don't think that Youtube is something to be cited. --Zeno McDohl ^(talk) 03:58, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Unfortunately I don't know the exact page number as I don't have a physical copy of the magazine myself. I'll ask around and see if any of my friends have it, though. BlazeHedgehog 04:00, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

• delete The articles defenders are passionate, but that doesn't make the article any more notable. Non-trivial coverage in multiple reliable sources means that the coverage is EXTENSIVE and MULTIPLE. Simply saying "I think I read about it once in a magazine a buddy of mine had" fails the MULTIPLE and EXTENSIVE. Extensive in this context means the game needs to be REVIEWED, not just MENTIONED. If the people voting "keep" want to keep it, provide the link to a reliable source that has an actual REVIEW of the game, like lets say at LEAST a paragraph or two and some sort of rating. That would be a good start. Merely shouting, over and over again "it's notable because I say so!" isn't good enough. Please review Wikipedia standards of reliable sources. --Jayron32 04:05, 27 October 2006 (UTC) vote changed, see below --Jayron32 01:22, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
  • And shouting "It's not notable because I say so!" IS good enough? BlazeHedgehog 04:07, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
    • reply. Actually, I didn't do that. I said it is not notable becayse it is not covered in Reliable Sources. Find some reliable sources. Post the URLs here. Let us all read them. If there are actual reviews (considerably longer than one sentance) in reliable sources I will change my vote. That is your opportunity to keep this article. All we need is proof. Provide the proof, and the article gets kept. But before you give us links to blogs, forums, Youtube, or other unreliable sources, read the Wikipedia Guidelines on Reliable Sources, and give us several of those. --Jayron32 04:30, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Keep Hm, have to say this is at least somewhat notable, stridency of its defenders notwithstanding. Opabinia regalis 04:09, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Weak delete. It seems to have a following. That said, I don't think it quite meets WP:SOFTWARE. Nephron  T|C 04:27, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Delete Trivial evidence of notability (though I'd be willing to change my vote if presented with decent evidence), plus embarrassingly poor behavior on the part of Luigifan. I find it exceedingly difficult to find any merit to what is being said when it is being bookended by obscenities and insults. EVula 05:01, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Weak Delete Almost no fan-games are notable enough to have an article. If they are notable, then they need, as has already been mentioned, extensive and multiple references in legitimately notable sources. A blurb with a picture is not sufficient; if a big magazine has reviewed the game, that's probably good enough, but that doesn't seem to have been presented yet. The defenders are passionate and if they want to defend the article better they'd be do better if they didn't continually fall back on ad hominem attacks, which only hurts them. Find us a review in a mainstream source and you'll probably get many of us to support keeping it. --The Way 05:24, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Keep per the fact that it has been mentioned a great deal it seems on Attack of the Show and elsewhere, the reliability of the sources could use a bit of work though -Derktar 05:26, 27 October 2006 (UTC).
• Delete No non-trivial references. Scattered mentions in blogs and offhand mention in one magazine maybe that somebody kinda remembers do not notability make.--Colindownes 06:37, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Keep; this one is a bit marginal, but the TV show featuring it makes it notable enough, in my opinion. Avoid bias against things like fan-made games; judge them objectively. Everyking 07:40, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Comment - The malice, hatefulness and blatant abuse of WP:CIVIL evidenced in this "discussion" make it impossible for me to form an objective opinion. --Masamage 08:16, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Delete. As Andre said, Attack of the Show discusses niche games as well as mainstream ones. However their coverage alone does not instantly make anything they discuss noteworthy. Most likely this fangame will never gain sufficient noteriety to have an article here, because, when it comes down to it, fangames are absolutely illegal unless the copyright holder says otherwise, and this one even uses ripped sprites in addition to copyrighted names and likenesses. If it ever earns a GameSpot entry like Halo Zero then, yes, I could say it's pushing the notability margin as an established authority has recognised it. AOTS is not such an authority. Garrett^Talk 09:49, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Delete - Once again Garrett said what I was thinking, just in a better way than I could. The Kinslayer 10:04, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Yes, I was... uncivilized... a while ago. Maybe even a barbarian. But, now, I have assumed the guise of the Ninja of Peace... Calm and introspective... Keeping a level head is a key element of Ninjitsu. A ninja who flies into a beserk rage is a ninja who won't last long. Analyzing the situation and waiting for the precise oppurtunity to deliver a deciding blow; that is how a ninja wins his battles. You are no match for my serene rebuttals through wisdom. --Luigifan 11:09, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
  • ...great. That's just... yeah, cool. Whatever it takes for you to calm down. EVula 14:52, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Keep I mentioned this game at an earlier AfD as an example of a notable fangame. I think fangames can be notable, and that this game is a great example. Maxamegalon2000 14:17, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment I agree that fan-games can be notable, but this one isn't. We need solid, reliable, and notable sources that prove the game is notable, and it just hasn't been provided. EVula 14:52, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Keep the article, block Luigifan and Ashuku Their personal threats, vandalism, profanity, and disruption of the process have been embarrasing to watch. The game, however, seems quite notable enough for a Wikipedia article. Auto movil 15:32, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

  Like I said, I lost my temper when I felt that Andrevan was ignoring us. However, now I see that it's because you don't think the citations are good enough. I would agree... if this was a commercial project. However, a mention is the best coverage a fangame can expect, evn if it's pretty good. If it actually gets an article in a magazine, it must be stellar... on the other hand, this game should fit those guidelines. Actually, Wikipedia is probably the site that does the best job of explaining this game, short of Blaze's website itself, and that's one of the major reasons I'd like to keep the article. --Luigifan 19:51, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

  That's not what Wikipedia is for. I'm sorry, but if a mention is the best coverage something can get, then it has not made a significant impact on the world. Doesn't matter what it is. WP articles are required to base their reports on information that has already been published by a reputable source; no such thing exists for this, so we can't keep it.

  I think you should start some kind of Fangamepedia, and make your own standards for inclusion, and achieve your comprehensive list that way. The Wikimedia software is extremely easy to download and set up. Could be a lot of fun, and if done well, could probably be an external link from the Fangame WP article. --Masamage 22:42, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

• comment I will agree that any "X" can be notable. The only wikipedia guideline that matters is "Non-trivial coverage in multiple, reliable sources". Can anyone voting keep provide these MULTIPLE, RELIABLE, and NONTRIVIAL citations? If you can, I will change my vote. If all you can do is assert notability without providing evidence, then why should that give the admins a reason to keep the article. Remember, this isn't a vote, this is part of an investigation. Investigations require evidence. --Jayron32 18:21, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• comment I'm invoking the common-sense rule. There's no dispute that the game exists, was featured on a television show, and has a large number of players. The guidelines were intended to ensure this type of notability -- to provide a test for it. They weren't intended to disqualify otherwise-notable topics that fall under a certain unspecified threshold of media attention. That said, my personal interest in the game and the article, and in fan games in general (and Mario stuff in particular) is pretty much zero. Auto movil 18:43, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

• Keep - I think this is a classic case of Wikipedia through the looking glass syndrome the writers feel got at "where are all these comments coming from" - take a look at: 2006_October_27 - seeing things from the other side of the looking class might help! --Mike 19:22, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment To the best of my knowledge, WP:SOFTWARE is a relevant guideline on both sides of the looking glass. EVula 19:27, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

• Keep - I find articles notable in themselves, to the extent that they contain information that's interesting to someone. Rōnin 22:37, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Comment I don't want to sound rude, but with all due respect it doesn't really matter whether the subject is interesting to you or any other particular individual. Virtually everything is interesting to somebody, that doesn't mean it needs to be on Wikipedia. I find a number of things interesting that aren't appropriate for an encyclopedia. The guidelines which have been formulated for us to follow were designed for this precise reason. --The Way 22:48, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Exactly right. For instance, I'm extremely interested in my husband, in my friends' blogs, in the way some people's ears have bumps on the tips, and in the awesome birthmark on the back of my right knee. Not one of those things would be appropriate for a Wikipedia article. --Masamage 23:39, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

• Delete unless multiple, reliable, non-trivial sources are provided. --Kunzite 05:08, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

• Keep - Why should it matter that this is a fan-made game? It's a game that's appeared on television, SEVERAL gaming websites as well as printed magazines in a few countries, and has been downloaded a great amount of times. It has a fairly detailed Wikipedia entry, complete with references and screenshots. All of which is more then I can say about a good amount of officially released games, I can tell you. Oh, and it's also been mentioned in NGC Magazine. A scan here: http://coldflame.doorsclosing.com/images/twilightNGCarticle.jpg (I have a full page scan for anyone who asks for it) I hope this may help even slightly in proving the article's notability even further. H Hog 16:03, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
  • The scanned image would count as a trivial source (at least to me). A sidebar is not the same as an actual article, which would be much more impressive. EVula 16:08, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
    • The guidelines don't specify a distinction between sidebars and other reviews. Their purpose is to ensure that a game actually exists, and that it has wide enough recognition to have appeared in objective media sources. A nine-page spread in some game-industry journal would also be more impressive, honestly, but we've reached that crucial moment in which an article has satisfied the spirit of the guidelines, and has passed the common-sense test (i.e., it's not fancruft, a commercial pitch, or a vanity page), and votes for deletion are going to have to rest on opinion and personal taste. My own opinion is that game stuff is completely uninteresting, but the article isn't for me, if you see what I mean. Auto movil 16:51, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
      • As WP:SOFTWARE would suggest, it's long enough to not be counted as trivial; as the page suggests, a "trivial" mention would consist of little more then the name of the game and its release date. H Hog 17:10, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

Delete. Does not strike as notable enough to me. - A Link to the Past (talk) 03:55, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

• Keep This is definitely more than notable enough. You shouldn't even bother nominating this for deletion. --huntersquid <°)))>< ^{Calamari Cove} 16:21, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
• keep notable enough. Sasha l 17:17, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

• change vote to keep: In light of new evidence (the scaned image from H Hog), coverage is definately NONTRIVIAL. Though short, it is an honest-to-god review, that establishes notability. We also have other short (though also nontrivial) reviews listed in a few places above. Let this be an object lesson to everyone on how to do research and provide evidence to a defence. Cold hard facts will beat passion any day. --Jayron32 01:22, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
• Keep I am one to agree that most indy projects do not deserver articles however this one has reached acclaim for what it is, G4, Kotaku, etc. Its obviously meeting the standard of notability. --NuclearZer0 21:01, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
• Delete - Only coverage presented is trivial. Two sentences and a web address hardly meets WP:RS. Wickethewok 21:11, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

• If you think this should be deleted, then by that same logic, many, many, wiki articles need to go. Such as the All your base articles, any and all fangame articles and basically 1/3rd of wikipedia. Don't be silly, the fact that wikipedia has articles on such things that have a small or 'cult' following is what makes it a cut above other encyclopedias. To delete this would be to denounce the foundation of wikipedia. This is a definite keeper. Perfect Chaos Zero 01:27, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
  • That's exactly the point I was trying to make. Hey Andrevan, are you listening to this?!? --Luigifan 01:31, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
  • "All your base" has been cited in 44 "scholarly" articles per google scholar. I'm sure I could find enough to make the page stick. It's notable and sourcable--they're not comparable. Wikipedia has a lot of articles that fall short of notability guidelines. If you find similar that you feel do not meet the guidelines, put them up for deletion. But that's not the point. We're not discussing 1/3 of Wikipedia, we're talking about this article. We have objective criteria to determine this article's merits and we should used those to determine rather than the "if we delete this, we have to delete 1/3 of wikipedia" strawman. --Kunzite 02:35, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
    • What Perfect Chaos Zero is saying, is that this page does fit in Wikipedia, albeit in a sort of "stubbish" fashion, in that it's encyclopedic enough to be included in an online encyclopedia, but would be a waste of paper (and a bit of extra mass) in a paper encyclopedia. Since Wikipedia is supposed to be dynamic, and to cover things that other encyclopedias would ignore, this page shouldn't be deleted. --Luigifan 02:39, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
      • I know. Wikipedia is not paper. Wikipedia is also not the repository of all human knowledge. Wikipedia also has content guidelines. They should be applied. --Kunzite 02:59, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
• Comment This article needs to be trimmed down tremendously, including cleaning up a lot of peacock terms. A four line entry is not being "featured" in a magazine. Linking an article to a user's page is NOT appropriate. Having 3/4 of your article consisting of a trivia section does not give any real information. I'm going to through and whittle this article down to what is verifiable and non-trivial. --Wafulz 17:40, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
  • Also, I'm removing a lot of the media mentions. The digg article just points to a primary source. The Insert Credit article says "by brandon, via Ryan Bloom". I've taken out the "game of the week thing" because 1. Game of the week = 52 per year => not too hard to do and 2. There were 70 votes, which makes it susceptible to ballot-stuffing. --Wafulz 18:18, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
    • I would say keep the game of the week thing considering how many titles are released a year, and this was an indy project, its more then a testament to success on behalf of the developers. --NuclearZer0 13:16, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
      • Alright, I've put it back in. However, I've taken out the "landslide" bit because apparently the votes aren't archived and there's no other source for it, meaning leaving it in would leave us as a primary source for that information. --Wafulz 15:52, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
• Keep - It has gained the attention of those in the business of games, having appeared on Attack of the Show, so if they feel it's notable enough to get on their show, I feel it's notable enough to have it's own page. JQF 15:15, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

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The result was delete. - Mailer Diablo 06:50, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Metroid Prime 2D

Non-notable fanmade game, fails WP:SOFTWARE. Andre (talk) 00:22, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

• Delete as above, not even complete yet. Andrew Lenahan - Starblind 01:16, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Note: This debate has been included in the list of Japan-related deletions. -- Ig yqzs 01:55, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

• Note: This debate has been added to the list of CVG deletions. -- moe.RON ^{Let's talk | done} 01:56, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

• delete a google search turns up self made sites, blogs, forums, and the Wikipedia article itself, but no reliable sources The article even asserts its own lack of notability, since it is not complete (crystal balling) and fan-created game (fails software notability). --Jayron32 04:08, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Delete per nom. EVula 05:14, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

• Delete per Jayron32. An unfinshed, non-notable unverifiable fan game. The Kinslayer 09:58, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Delete for now, but when the game comes out and if it gains popularity, I suggest the article be recreated.SuperDT 13:42, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Delete I've been following this game's progress for a while, and could never justify its having an article. Maxamegalon2000 14:19, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Delete nom and Jayron32 spell out the arguement for deletion very well. --Kunzite 05:20, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
• Delete Even as a fan of their work, I have to say the case is not essentially different from unreleased game mods. Welcome back when the game is actually finished and has gotten the due attention from the community at large... --wwwwolf (barks/growls) 10:08, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Changing to Weak delete in light of magazine mention. Not keep, because I think the magazine mention in question is borderline trivial - not entirely trivial (as in "name and an URL"), but you can just say that "hey, it registers on the radar" but you can't really say "whoa, an article". --wwwwolf (barks/growls) 21:03, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
• Strong Keep - If only because Andrevan is going around flagging all these for deletion when certain ones should definitely be kept. Andrevan is no doubt aware that nobody is going to defend these poor games; most folks come in and say, "Oh it fails WP: Software so I'll vote delete on principal" without even thinking of anything else. It's very one-sided and kind of sneaky, if you ask me. Besides, Metroid Prime 2D has been mentioned in a magazine, and while somebody will no doubt go "It's a sentence and a screenshot", it's better than nothing at all. [17] There may even be more mentions in magazines, but I don't exactly keep up with what magazines mention Metroid Prime 2D; but this just goes with what I was saying earlier: The people who COULD defend Metroid Prime 2D are not here to do so, so I will do my best in their wake. BlazeHedgehog 19:02, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment Voting "keep" because you disagree with the nominating editor is a really, really bad policy. And, yes, a screenshot and a sentence (or two, in this case) is hardly a non-trivial mention. EVula 19:08, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
    • Yeah, but the genius of voting like this is you can vote for whatever reason you wish, and I think Andrevan is being unfair. These are Wikipedia guidelines, not set-in-stone follow-them-or-die rules. In the tidal wave of useless information on Wikipedia, fangames are the minority. While I would definitely support these AFDs if everybody and their grandmother had a fangame on Wikipedia, they don't, usually because the TRULY useless ones end up speedy deleted. However, games like Metroid Prime 2D, Mario Forever, and SRB2 are articles that people generally seem to like and keep more or less up to date, suggesting that the project is known well-enough that people want to contribute to it's article. Andrevan is exploiting vague Wikipedia guidelines, like some cheesy lawyer who looks for every loophole to win a court case. I'm sure he thinks he has Wikipedia's best interests in mind, and I hold nothing personal towards him, but imagine if I went around putting articles up for AFD that I simply didn't care for. Imagine if EVERYBODY did the same. Half of Wikipedia would be up for AFD constantly! BlazeHedgehog 07:07, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
      • Comment The problem is this isn't a vote. It's a debate. You can vote for whatever you like, but the closing admin can ignore it. Especially if you're only voting only to make a point. --Kunzite 07:38, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
        • Isn't... everybody making a point? I mean, I'd hate to think everybody in this AFD is doing something pointless. If they DON'T have a point, what's the use of doing an AFD at all? BlazeHedgehog 10:01, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
          • No. Stating your position here one way or the other because one disagrees with the actions of an editor outside the context of this AFD is trying to "make a point". One should focus on the merits of the article rather than the actions of an editor. --Kunzite 20:53, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
    • In this case, I think it's entirely fair to voice concerns. However, I don't believe voting keep is utterly uncalled for in this case, if the nominator can bring some reasons to keep this article not deleted, and a magazine mention is a good reason. I'd advise everyone involved to calm down a bit though; accusations of bad faith nominations aren't particularly fun to throw around lightly, especially when these days a lot of fan stuff gets nominated for deletion. Consider AfDs a trial by fire that every topic that isn't on rock-solid foundation has to go through if someone so notices. Consider it an opportunity - a dire and dramatic opportunity, but an opportunity nevertheless - to improve the notability/sourcing details of the article in question. --wwwwolf (barks/growls) 21:03, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
• Delete - Fails WP:V, WP:RS. Wickethewok 19:45, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
• Delete - Mention it in the Metroid Prime article itself (and be sure to cite the magazine as well). --Tristam 23:10, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

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The result was delete. - Mailer Diablo 06:51, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Street Fighter Special Operations

Non-notable fanmade game scenario, fails WP:SOFTWARE. Andre (talk) 00:22, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

• Delete I can't even tell if this one is complete or not. And, as always, no reliable sources. Andrew Lenahan - Starblind 01:17, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Delete: As a general rule fan games are non notable. Deathawk 01:49, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

• Fangame. Delete. End of discussion. Danny Lilithborne 01:51, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Note: This debate has been included in the list of Japan-related deletions. -- Ig yqzs 01:55, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

• Note: This debate has been added to the list of CVG deletions. -- moe.RON ^{Let's talk | done} 01:56, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

• delete Non notable because a) fan-game (thus non-notable at creation) and b) no mention in reliable sources. --Jayron32 04:10, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• delete per above. --Tone 07:15, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

• Delete - Non-notable fan game that doesn't even have it's own website (let alone reliable third-party ones) to verify information. The Kinslayer 09:56, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Delete Not notable, Fan-game, poorly written, delete —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Outlaw640 (talk • contribs) .
• Delete no reliable sources, not verifiable, not notable--another fan game. --Kunzite 05:22, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
• Delete - per Kunzite. Wickethewok 19:44, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

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The result was delete. - Mailer Diablo 06:51, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Heroes of Might and Magic 3½: In the Wake of Gods

Non-notable fanmade game, fails WP:SOFTWARE. Andre (talk) 00:25, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

• Delete this one isn't even a game, but a mod. Oh, and no reliable sources. Andrew Lenahan - Starblind 01:19, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Delete because flergle. Danny Lilithborne 01:52, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

• Note: This debate has been added to the list of CVG deletions. -- moe.RON ^{Let's talk | done} 01:57, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

• delete Fan made game, so has no notable publisher, distributer, retail purchase, etc. etc. Also, no notable reviews in reliable sources --Jayron32 04:11, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

• Delete - No apparant notability. The Kinslayer 08:37, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

• Do not delete - If anything, reclassify. This is a well-known mod to Heroes 3, and this article is informative in this regard. Since it is more properly a "mod" than an actual game, it would be best to classify it as such. Mindthief 06:46, 28 October 2006 (US/PT)
  • The issue isn't over the overall infomativeness of the article, the fact of the matter is that it provides no links to any sites bar it's own. To be preserved here it would need links to news storys, awards, and other third-party sources of information. We can't just take it at it's word that it should be here. The Kinslayer 14:20, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
• Delete - Fails WP:V, WP:RS. Wickethewok 19:49, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

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The result was No Consensus, defaults to keep. Naconkantari 18:15, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Swords of Xeen

Non-notable fanmade game, fails WP:SOFTWARE. Andre (talk) 00:24, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

• Keep, though initially fanmade, this was included in some of 3DO's own later re-releases of the Might and Magic series. Definitely notable. PurplePlatypus 00:56, 27 October 2006 (UTC) NOTE: This vote has been vandalized twice. I don't know anything about the person who did this, but it sure isn't good for the credibility of the Delete side.

• The article does not explain this or cite anything suggesting such notability. Andre (talk) 01:11, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

• Which is why you have tags such as {{cleanup}} and {{fact}}. AfDs are not a cleanup tool. Havok (T/C/c) 07:30, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

• Havok, you seem to consistently forget that cleaning up an article is not the responsibility of the people who think it should be deleted. You also overlook that this is a discussion about deleting an article. The comment you replied to was stating why they thought the article should be deleted, as they are supposed to. If someone disagrees, then it is up to THEM to put the proof in the article, which I note that despite making snotty comments about to other people, you yourself never do. So if I were you I would either practice what I preach and clean-up the article myself, seeing as it's you who disagrees with the AfD, or, if your not prepared to do that, stop making snotty little copy+paste comments in AfDs when someone says why they think an article should be deleted. The Kinslayer 09:33, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

• Delete the article claims this was released as part of a compilation with the real titles in the series, but that doesn't necessarily make it canonical. Andrew Lenahan - Starblind 01:21, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Keep I don't know whether or not it was fanmade, but this game was released by the publisher, and that makes it an official part of the series. I've got it as part of the collection that came with Might and Magic VI. That makes it a definite keeper. FrozenPurpleCube 01:30, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

BTW, I can provide a screenshot from the game if anybody wants confirmation. FrozenPurpleCube 01:44, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

• Note: This debate has been added to the list of CVG deletions. -- moe.RON ^{Let's talk | done} 01:57, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

• Comment: "Officialness" is a red herring. The criteria for deletion have absolutely nothing to do with canonicity.
• Delete or Merge If it was included as a scenario in a Might and Magic, it MIGHT warrant a mention in the main Might and Magic article. Maybe. But it fails utterly as a stand-alone article. --Jayron32 04:13, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Merge per Jayron32. Not notable enough for its own article, but being a part of the parent article would make sense. EVula 05:07, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Keep Per PurplePlatypus. Havok (T/C/c) 07:29, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

• Merge - Official recognition makes it notable to me (provided a link to the information is supplied) but I agree it's not notable enough for it's own article. The Kinslayer 09:45, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Merge wherever appropriate if it did indeed appear in an official package, Delete otherwise. Garrett^Talk 09:56, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

• Keep: per Purple & Manticore. Dread Lord CyberSkull ✎☠ 10:00, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• keep or merge per the purpleplatypus being fanmade should not be reason for prejudice Yuckfoo 01:49, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

• Comment I don't believe that there is any prejudice going on; people ask for sources, like they would in an article for a game published by a company instead of being self-published; sources weren't given. Merge because of retroactive integration into M&M 6 SE but lack of sourcing. ColourBurst 03:25, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

• Keep per above. --badlydrawnjeff talk 04:08, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
• Keep as per PurplePlatypus's comment. --Bakabaka 23:05, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
• Keep is a fangame that was made official canon by 3DO. Not to be confused with Clouds of Xeen (which I did confuse it with). However, I believe this game comes in the M&M 6 Special Edition, which I have, that features the past games of the series.. guitarhero777777 17:51, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

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The result was delete. Andre (talk) 21:42, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Mario Forever

Non-notable fanmade game, fails WP:SOFTWARE. Andre (talk) 00:30, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

• Delete no reliable Sources, blah blah blah. Andrew Lenahan - Starblind 01:23, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Itsa me Delete Danny Lilithborne 01:53, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Note: This debate has been included in the list of Japan-related deletions. -- Ig yqzs 01:55, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

• Note: This debate has been added to the list of CVG deletions. -- moe.RON ^{Let's talk | done} 01:57, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• delete non notabale. As a fan made game, it has no notable developer, publisher, distributor, or retail availibility. There is no review in reliable sources. --Jayron32 04:14, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Delete per nom. EVula 05:06, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

• Delete - Non-notable fan game with no third-party sources. The Kinslayer 09:41, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Keep. I seem to remeber seeing this as one of the most popular downloads on download.com for a while. Thats certainly why it was on my computer. Robinoke 13:02, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment - I think you'd have to actually prove that with links and citations before anyone will accept that as a satisfactory statement. The Kinslayer 13:07, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
    • In reply [18] has Mario Forever at the top of 2D platformers with four times as many downloads than the second place game. Even the game N comes after it. Robinoke 16:32, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
• Strong Keep - If only because Andrevan is going around flagging all these for deletion when certain ones, such as Mario Forever, should definitely be kept. The popularity of Mario Forever is what prompted me to make MarioWeen. It may not have had very many noteworthy mentions on magazines or on TV, but, well, a considerable amount of encyclopedic information on Wikipedia on software would have to be deleted on the same grounds. Andrevan is no doubt aware that nobody is going to defend these poor games; most folks come in and say, "Oh it fails WP: Software so I'll vote delete on principal" without even thinking of anything else. It's very one-sided and kind of sneaky, if you ask me. BlazeHedgehog 18:57, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
  • I couldnt agree more. There are some significant fanbased games put of for deletion the last couple of days and being deleted on principle with hardly any comment. Robinoke 16:28, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
    • Your both coming across as pretty daft to be honest. For all your repeated claims of how significant this and other games have been, I've yet to see you ONCE come up with any of the proof that would save the article. WP:ILIKEIT says why merely saying 'It's popular' or 'I like it' doesn't cut it. We need news stories, and other associated THIRD-PARTY (translation: Nothing to do with the games creator) sources of information. If you can't get them, then Wiki policy states the article must be deleted. Blaze merely votes to keep something with no actual reason, and has recently been voting to keep solely based on who nominated the article, which is stupid, to be frank. And FYI Blaze, people are saying 'This article should be deleted because it fails to meet WP:X, Y and Z' because that's the point of having policies. They ensure standards are (supposedly) maintained and prevent cases like this where an article seems to be being used solely to attract more traffic to the creators site. Wiki is not an advertising service, and if someone can't be bothered to say WHY an article should be kept, then it wont be. If you think this article doesn't deserve to be deleted then prove us wrong. Find some news stories (and 7 word mentions in another article don't count either), put the information in the article, and cite them.The Kinslayer 09:11, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
• Delete - Fails WP:RS, WP:V. Wickethewok 19:50, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
• Delete, as per Wickethewok. Combination 01:57, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

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The result was delete. - Mailer Diablo 06:52, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The Re-Born

No sources to verify this album (per User:Discospinster). -- Omicronpersei8 (talk) 00:36, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

• Delete - Wikipedia is not a crystal ball, cant verify the claims, if they can, and can get some sources, i am ok for keeping it.Chris Kreider 01:01, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Delete When album is released, or at least reviews in a reliable source, then recreate the article. Until then, this is a total crystal ball article. --Jayron32 04:16, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Delete per nom. Speculation, crystal-balling, unsourced, unverifiable... Hey, at least its fairly NPOV! ;-) EVula 05:28, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Delete — as per nom, and wikipedia is not, of course, a crystal ball JoeSmack ^Talk(p-review!) 19:36, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Keep with tag saying sources needed. This could be a decent article; it just needs some sources. Justinpwilsonadvocate 16:08, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

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The result was delete as an unverifiable hoax, closing early per WP:SNOW. No arguments for keeping. --Coredesat 09:04, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Puxatony Middle School

Does not meet any of the criteria at WP:SCHOOLS. School has only 27 students, no information on the history or verifiability of the school is provided, and the school is not a High School or post-secondary facility. NMChico24 00:39, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

• Delete, unverifiable. If someone can verify it, merge per WP:SCHOOLS or keep for readers' convenience and growth potential. Kappa 00:48, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Strong delete reeks of hoax. The wesite link is a Freewebs page with a picture of what looks like a dollhouse, and I don't see any evidence that the town where it's supposedly located exists either. Andrew Lenahan - Starblind 00:59, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Delete, "Puxatony Middle School" gets exactly one Ghit -- this Wikipedia page. I hate hoaxes. NawlinWiki 01:13, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Speedy Delete Hoax. TJ Spyke 01:40, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Delete in shocking news, someone made up a school whose name is abbreviated "PMS". Opabinia regalis 01:58, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• I have a feeling this is unverifiable (i.e. hoax), for three reasons. 1. Nice initials. 2. If you really lived in Nunavut, you'd spell it correctly, right? 3. The article is written using very American terminology. So, this can probably be deleted without any loss. 64.7.137.71 02:19, 27 October 2006 (UTC) — Possible single purpose account: 64.7.137.71 (talk • contribs) has made few or no other contributions outside this topic.
• Delete. Puxatony does not appear in List of communities in Nunavut or in Category:Communities in Nunavut. --TruthbringerToronto (Talk | contribs) 03:12, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Delete Hoax. --Jayron32 04:18, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Delete - What part of WP:SCHOOLS covers bad jokes??? --cholmes75 ^{(chit chat)} 04:20, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Speedy Delete G7 Unremarkable groups (though I'm not sure if G7 covers possibly fictional groups...). EVula 05:10, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Delete as hoax. Look, the apocalypse is near. Silensor 06:16, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Delete, fails BJAODN. --Dhartung | Talk 08:24, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

• Delete - Obvious hoax --NRS | ^T/_M\^B 12:44, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Delete Apparent hoax. Edison 15:47, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Delete hoax article.. SunStar Net 18:29, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Delete hoax article TheRanger 20:48, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

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The result was Speedy Delete--Tone 12:05, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Mark Byrne

Questionable notability. ghits: [19]. NMChico24 00:43, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

• Delete The above Google search yields 303 unique hits, many not about this person. NawlinWiki 01:15, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Delete Fails WP:V and WP:BIO. Tarret 01:17, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Delete Article doesn't even assert its own notability. Hairdressers MIGHT be notable if their work is reviewed in major reliable sources. Until this guy merits a major review in "Hair Colorist Weekly", he ain't notable. --Jayron32 04:19, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Speedy Delete G11 blatant advertising, between the POV tone of the article and the creator's edits (only two, which consist of just this article). EVula 05:12, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Speedy Delete CSD G11 and A7. Notice the external link. Cheers -- Imoeng 06:20, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Speedy Delete advert. --Tone 07:16, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Speedy delete as above. BTLizard 09:46, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Speedy Delete - Advert --NRS | ^T/_M\^B 12:46, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Speedy delete per above: non-notable hairdresser. - Smerdis of Tlön 14:06, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Speedy delete per above: non-notable distributor of colour products. Emeraude 17:06, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Speedy delete per above: non-notable hairdresser.--Kf4bdy ^{talk contribs} 17:58, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

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The result was Delete Naconkantari 18:18, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Acmegeddon

This article is just a plot summary of a tv show episode. This fails part of Wiki policy WP:NOT. See point 7 in the not an indiscriminate collection of information section which states:

Plot summaries. Wikipedia articles on works of fiction should contain real-world context and sourced analysis, offering detail on a work's achievements, impact or historical significance, not solely a summary of that work's plot. A plot summary may be appropriate as an aspect of a larger topic

This does not satisify this policy. Metros232 00:46, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

• Keep, appropriate as an aspect of a larger topic. Kappa 00:53, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment, my understanding of "aspect of a larger topic" is that you can use a plot summary to say: this episode is important to pop culture/society/whatever...here is what happens in the episode...here is why what happens is important. This article is simply saying what happened, nothing of importance or cultural significance and, as such, doesn't fit as an "aspect of a larger topic". Metros232 00:59, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
    • My understanding is that Loonatics Unleashed is a larger topic which benefits from not having individual episodes discussed in the main article. Kappa 01:18, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Delete -- plot summary only, no context or anything at all indicating significance. older ≠ wiser 01:22, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Delete per nom. I find it hard to believe that Loonatics has enough of a fanbase for stuff like this to crop up. Danny Lilithborne 01:50, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Keep Delete Weak Delete. I did not originally notice that there was a page (WP:EPISODE) that laid down specific policies on this sort of thing. Per a violation of that page, I have changed my vote accordingly. As a postscript though, I'm not sure we should delete any and all articles that just need a bit of cleanup. Is it not possible that, considering the page is only a few weeks old, someone could have cleaned up the article with the appropriate sources in the future? Green451 16:39, 27 October 2006 (UTC)I have never heard of this show, nor do I want to see it, but a precedent has already been set for articles on a TV show episodes. Look at the articles List of Star Trek: The Next Generation episodes and List of House episodes, and you will see that these shows have articles for almost every episode of their series. While this TV show certainly isn't as well known compared to my examples, as long as it recieves non-questionable third-party media coverage, then it mandates inclusion, in my humble opinion. Green451 02:15, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
  • I don't know about House, but if you look at most any article on a Star Trek episode, it is more than simple plot summary. Plot summary alone does not make for an encyclopedia article. And seeing as how these are the only episodes with an article for the show and not a whole lot of activity in improving them, I don't see any reason to keep them. I mean, if you want to bring them all up the the level of quality of Star Trek episode articles, that'd be just great--but, good luck with that. older ≠ wiser 02:30, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
  • No, a precedent has not been set. The best indicator of whether Wikipedia should have articles on individual episodes of television series is whether those episodes have already, outside of Wikipedia, been documented in detail individually, independently of the show's creators/producers/promoters. Episodes of series like Star Trek and Babylon 5 have been documented in detail, individually and independently. That, not precedent, is the basis upon which we can justify having articles on the individual episodes. Precedent, i.e. "If article X then article Y.", is a fundamentally flawed argument. To make a good argument, cite sources, in this case sources where this episode of a television show has been individually documented in detail independently of its creators/producers/promoters. Uncle G 15:09, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Provisional Keep as an episode of a notable TV show, I'd say it's a keep by default. However, this article should be tagged for clean-up and other improvement. Make it something more like the Avatar episodes. FrozenPurpleCube 02:22, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
  • In what way is this a "notable TV show"? Where are the books about it? Where are references to critical reception? older ≠ wiser 02:30, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
    • It was on KidsWB! and now the CW, and it involves derivations from long-established Looney Toons characters. Pretty much says notability for a television series to me. How is it not notable? Because some college professor hasn't taught a course on it yet? Oh well. I don't need that sort of thing. FrozenPurpleCube 02:46, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Comment: This is really something odd that I just discovered (and probably a nice little example of systematic bias) but the "Who shot J.R.?" episode of Dallas (TV series), the second-most watched television episode of all-time, doesn't have its own article. It has simply a paragraph along with about 5 other notable episodes in the Dallas article. Metros232 02:58, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Delete This topic has been coming up a lot lately. Notability guidelines for fiction require that articles be MORE than just a summary and that they MUST provide real world context. Having articles for every single episode of every single tv show is a bit much, wouldn't you say? I've suggested that in cases where a show has lots of such articles that they be merged into articles covering the show by season, which also helps to place them in context with the show as a whole at least. --The Way 05:28, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
  • It's funny that you would pair such a helpful suggestion with such a confrontational vote. Kappa 06:17, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
    • Comment I vote on a number of AfDs daily anymore, it's not very confrontational, just an administrative type function that average editors on the Wikipedia do. The suggestion was to merge it into a broader article that covers the season in which it appeared; if there's nothing to merge it into, I still think it should be deleted. The article of an individual episode needs to be deleted regardless. --The Way 06:26, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
      • Maybe "brutal" is a more approriate term then. Kappa 07:28, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Having articles for every single episode of every single tv show is a bit much, wouldn't you say? No, I'd say that's exactly what I'd like. Ok, not every single TV show, since game shows, for example, would rarely qualify, or news programs, and soaps would probably be a bit overwhelming, but for the most part, yes, I would like most TV shows to have an article. Oh, sometimes all the episodes might well be described in one page, but the important thing is to have the information. FrozenPurpleCube 13:53, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Delete per nom. When the plot summary of a two-part animated cartoon episode is twice as long as the plot summary of War and Peace, there would appear to be something wrong with the article about the cartoon. --Metropolitan90 07:16, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Your comment should probably be directed toward User:The Way's delete recommendation above. --Metropolitan90 16:42, 27 October 2006 (UTC) (No longer applicable, comment has been moved.) --Metropolitan90 17:31, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
    • Yes, I know, however I already forgot to sign in, I can forgive myself for getting the location wrong. So I moved it. FrozenPurpleCube 17:08, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Keep. It is apparently a two-part episode of a cartoon TV show. We keep episode summaries as a matter of practice. Everyking 07:54, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Delete, no need for such long summaries when no other info is available. Everything we need to know is in Episodes of Loonatics Unleashed, Season 1, this article badly fails WP:NOT and doesn't seem to have a chance to be expanded with out-of-universe, notable, WP:V info. The show is notable, but this particular episode (or presumably anyt other one) isn't. Fram 11:38, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Delete - per above. None of the other episodes of this series have their own articles, I don't see why this one should. --cholmes75 ^{(chit chat)} 14:03, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Delete — Were this not a simple plot summary, but an article with a real-life subject, I would probably vote delete for the following reasons: Stinks of WP:OR; no sources; few wikilinks; no cats and a non-notable (WP:NN) subject. With it being an article about just one episode of a notable (as established by the fact that it has an article) TV series, I feel that it should definately be deleted - the text in it is really unneccesary, as all the inforamtion that most people need (and which should be on WP) is in the table. Martinp23 15:58, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Delete — WP:NOT, WP:EPISODE, and this is solely a plot summary. notable? prove it with citation/analysis. JoeSmack ^Talk(p-review!) 19:29, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Keep per precedent. Also, I don't see anything in WP:EPISODE to suggest this article isn't allowed, and even if three were it isn't official policy. It does need extensive work and clean-up. Also, if there aren't any further episode articles created for this series, then this could be considered for deletion later as an orphan. 23skidoo 02:33, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

Just for a note - although WP:EPISODE is not policy, it does say that if an article is completely unvierifable, then it can be taken to AfD (paraphrasing here...). As it is, this article has no sources, stinks of orginal research and is completely unverifable. I feel that it would be extremely difficult, if not impossible, to fix these problems. Martinp23 17:05, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

• Either keep and cleanup or merge, valid topic. JYolkowski // talk 23:33, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

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The result was delete. Andre (talk) 21:50, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Jumper (video game)

Non-notable fanmade game, fails WP:SOFTWARE. Andre (talk) 00:45, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

• Fangame. The end. Delete Danny Lilithborne 01:47, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• STRONG KEEP. Not a fangame, assholes.--=='''[[User:E-Magination''' ==]] 12:51, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

• Note: This debate has been added to the list of CVG deletions. -- moe.RON ^{Let's talk | done} 01:57, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

• Delete per nom. EVula 05:13, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Keep. It's not a fangame.--=='''[[User:E-Magination''' ==]] 05:49, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

• Delete - Your right, it's not a fangame. It's a non-notable series of freeware games with no sources other than the official site. The Kinslayer 09:28, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

• Delete. Although I like this game, and it's provided me and my friends hours of fun, it's not all that notable. If you're going to make articles on every freeware game that's ever come out, we'd have Wikipedia full of those stupid flash games that you see on websites all the time. SuperDT 13:47, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Weak Delete- Although the game is interesting,it's non-notable.Dr.khan 18:48, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Keep - This is perfectly notable, and someone tried to delete it before (see Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Jumper!). The result a year ago was no consensus, and the article has been improved since then. --huntersquid <°)))>< ^{Calamari Cove} 16:32, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
  • But still, no claim of notability has been made in the article. Delete! Marasmusine 00:03, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete - Fails verifiability, reliable sources. Wickethewok 19:54, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

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The result was redirect to Hovertank 3D. Can't sleep, clown will eat me 06:44, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Hover Tank 3D

Non-notable fanmade game, fails WP:SOFTWARE. Andre (talk) 00:49, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

• Redirect to Hovertank 3D, which was a pretty notable game in its day. Andrew Lenahan - Starblind 01:24, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

• Note: This debate has been added to the list of CVG deletions. -- moe.RON ^{Let's talk | done} 01:57, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Delete - Fails WP:SOFTWARE as mentioned above. This article really needs verification. Cheers -- Imoeng 02:07, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Redirect - Per Starblind. Torinir _{( Ding my phone My support calls E-Support Options )} 03:01, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Redirect per Starblind. EVula 05:14, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

• Redirect per Starblind. The Kinslayer 09:25, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Redirect per Starblind Outlaw640 14:18, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Redirect immediately, this needn't go through AFD. Daveydweeb (^chat/_patch) 05:09, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
• Delete and redirect to Hovertank 3D. Wickethewok 19:55, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

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The result was delete. - Mailer Diablo 06:52, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Squarez

Non-notable fanmade game, fails WP:SOFTWARE. Andre (talk) 00:49, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

• Delete - If every programming student put the game they created for there class, that would just clog Wikipedia up. It looks like a rip off of alot more popular game, even makes claims to such in the game. No sources meaning it is originial research. Chris Kreider 00:59, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

• Note: This debate has been added to the list of CVG deletions. -- moe.RON ^{Let's talk | done} 01:57, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Delete - Agree with Andre and Chris. Fails WP:SOFTWARE, therefore not notable. Cheers -- Imoeng 02:01, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Delete per nom. EVula 05:15, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

• Delete - Not notable, promotional and Wikipedia:Wikipedia is not for things made up in school one day. The Kinslayer 09:17, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

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The result was merge/redirect. W.marsh 00:33, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Aggie Cromwell

NN fictional character already adequately covered in Halloweentown. Seraphimblade 01:04, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

• Merge with Halloweentown. This current article has not enough information. Cheers -- Imoeng 01:58, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Merge and Redirect to Halloweentown.
• Merge and Redirect not enough stuff for own page. Audiobooks 18:57, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Merge Incorrect information (she is more well known as their grandmother than Splendora in Halloweentown IV. Disinclination 21:31, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

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The result was delete. - Mailer Diablo 06:56, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Birgu (Streets)

Also nominated: Bormla (streets), Mdina (streets), Senglea (streets), Siġġiewi (streets), Rabat, Gozo (streets), Zejtun (streets)

Delete. Seven lists of streets of towns on Malta. I made List of streets in Valletta look ok (not nominated). The rest of the lists are NN, as the cities are not that important. - CrazyRussian talk/email 01:05, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

• Delete, some listcruft, and as what Crzrussian said they are all non-notable lists. Do we need to list all streets in Malta? --Terence Ong _{(T | C)} 03:43, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Delete all, agreed that the lists are unnecessary and non-notable. This is not a street atlas. --Aguerriero (talk) 16:32, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Delete all, per CrazyRussian. -- Vary | Talk 16:51, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Delete all. Listcruft. Unfortunately, there's a lot of this about. I came across List of roads and expressways in Singapore recently and I'll bet there are hundreds more in a similar vein. I have too much will to live to search them all out. Perhaps we need a wider discussion on the topic of "Wikipedia is not a gazeteer." Emeraude 17:13, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Prodded - CrazyRussian talk/email 17:16, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Comment. Can I ask what makes List of streets in Valletta a special case, seeing as the nominator here removed my prod from that list whilst nominating these. Nuttah68 19:09, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Valetta is a capital and a historic city. A list of its major streets (and that list is rather short) might be a good idea to have. Other cities, tho, are less important IMO. - CrazyRussian talk/email 02:44, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
    • OK, as a list with two links I have submitted for AfD. Nuttah68 08:06, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
• Delete, important streets and there information can be included in the article on the village itself obviously or seperately if they are of particular importance Maltesedog 10:40, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
• delete its a trivia list Rhialto 10:46, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

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The result was delete. Wickethewok 22:24, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] SeXxX

Nonnotable Internet radio station. Author asserts that there was "media coverage" in article and on talk page, but cites no sources. NawlinWiki 01:10, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

• Delete - My Google search returned nothing. Not notable and verifiable. Cheers -- Imoeng 01:53, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Delete unverifiable -- Vary | Talk 16:54, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Delete --Kf4bdy ^{talk contribs} 17:59, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Delete not notable,not verifiable. Although I did find a lot of interesting things happen if you Google for SeXxX... Lemon martini 01:06, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
• Delete. Destroy. Now. --- RockMFR 01:15, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
• STRONG KEEP x 5848399 notable AND verifiable PFA 00:55, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

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The result was Speedy Delete . Tone 07:21, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The Game (song)

This was previously nominated for deletion, and the result was to delete. The article has since been reposted, and there appears to have been no information of substance added between now and the original article, and so I'm renominating this for deletion. Since I was the one to close the AfD originally, I will abstain from voting for conflict-of-interest reasons. Mo0[talk] 01:12, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

• Speedy Delete under CSD G4 as it is a repost. Tarret 01:15, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Delete - as the nominator last time I still agree it should go. I requested the review of the deleted content and understand it to be sufficently different to warrent this AfD. I will repeat my reasoning from previous, "While the band is notable, and the album may be, this particular song has non-nobility offered."--Gay Cdn (talk) (Contr.) 01:31, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Speedy Delete - Agree with Tarret, it is under CSD G4. Cheers -- Imoeng 01:49, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Speedy Delete G4 Recreation of deleted material. EVula 05:21, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

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The result was delete. Can't sleep, clown will eat me 06:47, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Archaeology in fiction

Contested ProD. Unverified original research. An unencyclopaedic essay. Unsearchable title, orphaned article. -- IslaySolomon | talk 01:17, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

• Delete until we get top men on this article... top men. Danny Lilithborne 01:42, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Delete - Purely original research and orphaned article. Cheers -- Imoeng 01:46, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Delete personal essay. Opabinia regalis 02:06, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

• Delete personal essay full of OR and POV. JChap2007 02:43, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Delete Per above. SuperDT 13:49, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Delete, but suggest user-fication. The subject may well be worthy of an article, but this needs work. - Smerdis of Tlön 14:09, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Delete There could be an article on this toopic, since there have been dozens of books and movies which were fiction about archeologists, but to be encyclopedic it would have to cite more references. This is a pleasant OR essay, but not quite up to the standard. Edison 15:51, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

• Comment: FWIW, there's a fairly nice bibliography of archeology in fiction here by Anita G. Cohen-Williams. It apparently dates to 1994, and needs updating to reflect Tomb Raider; it's also incomplete (no Journey to the Center of the Earth?) but it might be a good start. It also suggests themes around which a better article could be written: artifact (fantasy); Lost World (genre), stories set in prehistory. - Smerdis of Tlön 17:08, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Delete. Original research. Apart from the first ssentence, which is rubbish, a good read, but just someone's essay. 17:16, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

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The result was delete. Wickethewok 22:27, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] List of bands with complete sentence name

Pure listcruft. Wikipedia is not a collection of internal links, is not a directory. Only two pages link to this article, including another "list of" article. SkerHawx 01:25, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

• Weak delete - I am not sure about the category, "complete sentence name"? And I agree that this list does not explain anything, it is just putting names. Cheers -- Imoeng 01:43, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Delete although I find it incredibly amusing that many of the band names in this article are in fact not complete sentences. Danny Lilithborne 01:44, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Delete as something close to indiscriminate information, albeit of a passing interest. Discussion on the article's Talk page implies an amout of OR as well, as at least one user is talking about the context in which certain words are used in the hypothetical sentences. BigHaz - Schreit mich an 01:56, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
  • That was me on the talk page, where a word can have two meanings, and one of those meanings makes the name a sentence and one doesn't, I point it out on the talk page. No OR at all, just pointing out what I meant when I added them. -- Chuq 02:46, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
    • It still feels a bit OR-ish to say that Band X meant word Y in their name to be taken in this way, but I see where you're coming from. It's still a pretty indiscriminate type of list. BigHaz - Schreit mich an 03:33, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Complete sentence names are not. Article useless. Should be deleted. Opabinia regalis 02:02, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Keep - I come through and delete the non-complete-sentence band names every so often. I had a look at the page a couple of days ago, but didn't do the deleting then. Maybe if I had, this article wouldn't have been nominated... -- Chuq 02:36, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment - have cleaned up a lot of the crap (bands of questionable existence/notability, and bands who's names do NOT form a complete sentence). -- Chuq 02:46, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• delete Lists of (notable things) with a (notable trait) are notable lists. Lists of (notable things) with a (non-notable trait) are not notable. This list is not more notable, than say, "List of Bands with 'The' in their name" or "List of Bands with Three Word Names" Linguistic coincidences are not notable traits. --Jayron32 04:37, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

This kind of comment is why I hate the word notability. It's irrelevant whether the article itself is notable. Sheesh. Night Gyr (talk/Oy) 16:28, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

replyplease elaborate. I do not understand this comment. Notability, as defined in unequivocal terms in WP:NN, is the primary criteria for the existance of all articles on wikipedia. --Jayron32 18:03, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Notability is a guideline, not policy. WP:V, WP:NPOV, and WP:NOR are the primary criteria. Notability is a shortcut to ensure articles can be written that meet those. We're not out to write notable articles, or articles about notable things, we're out to write verifiable articles without original research that reflect a neutral, objective point of view. Limiting ourselves to things that receive a reasonable level of attention is a means to that end. "this list is not more notable..." is an absolutely absurd statment, because none of our lists are notable by our standards. The characteristic may be notable or not, but we don't have notability guidelines for features of songs, because they're not the kinds of things we use that for. Notability is not the end-all be-all too many people seem to think it is. Night Gyr (talk/Oy) 18:33, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

OK. If notability were never included, then all sorts of information would be allowed on wikipedia, and common sense says that some threshold must be established before something warrents an encyclopedia article. For example: You can verify my existance through public records (phone books, tax records, birth announcements, marriage announcements, property assessements, that sort of thing. Heck, I have even been in the paper a few times. Been on TV too!). You can write an NPOV article about the information you find there. Doing so is not original research. And yet, I AM NOT WORTHY OF A WIKIPEDIA ARTICLE. Why? I have done nothing notable. Lets not bicker about the difference between "guideline" and "policy". Notability is IMPORTANT. It establishes whether an encyclopedia article should be written on a subject. This subject lacks notability. It should be deleted. --Jayron32 18:55, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

You're using a really hazy and subjective sort of notability. If you've had several newspaper articles and tv news stories about you, I'd say you've probably done something worthy of note. Being on TV isn't quite same, though, if they just happen to interview you. The problem with writing an article about you would be that we wouldn't have anything verifiable to write that would be anything other than a directory entry. Night Gyr (talk/Oy) 19:38, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Reply Explain the haziness and subjectiveness in these terms: NONTRIVIAL: Extensive coverage, more than just a mention, the subject in question should be one of the primary focus of the sources. MULTIPLE: Many, several, numerous. RELIABLE SOURCES: Editiorial process, WP:RS. Nontrivial coverage in multiple, reliable sources. The only criterion that is worthy of defending WRT to notability. This subject does not bear out, as there is no critical review of bands just for their names. But there cannot be nontrivial coverage of what is essentially a trivial fact. Thus the list should be deleted. WRT my notability, I have not had "several articles" about me. My name has appeared in the newspaper as a graduate of highschool, college graduate, when I got married. I also had a picture published in the paper when I was a child for "Hey, look how cute this kid is" kind of article. I appeared on TV as a participant in a high school quiz show that airs on a single public television station. I am not notable. All of these instances are verifiable, but they are trivial in the sense that extensive review has NOT been done with regards to these sources. Thus, I am not notable, thus I am not worthy of an article. Lists of bands by genre of music WOULD be notable, since there is extensive coverage of bands within the context of their genre. There is nothing more than trivial coverage of bands merely because of linguistic coincidences in their names. Arguing against notability will get you no where. There is near complete consensus that notability (or lack therof) is a criteria for deletion. If you need to establish that for yourself, read through any days worth of AfDs. See which articles get deleted. See why people want them deleted. Merely because you, as a single editor, do not want notability to "count" and find it "fuzzy" does not mean that the general consensus will change to your opinion. The consensus opinion is that notability is both easily definable and understandable AND an important criteria to a subjects worthyness. This subject is not worthy, since it fails the primary notability criteria: It has no hope of ever warrenting NONTRIVIAL COVERAGE IN MULTIPLE RELIABLE SOURCES. Thus, it dies on the vine. Delete it. --Jayron32 04:47, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

• Delete WK:NOT Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate source for information. It excludes the exceptionally trivial, which is precisely what this is. Pure listcruft of the most random kind, a completely arbitrary classification. As the above poster stated, if we accept this then we have to accept lists of bands with albums with 'the' in the title, or any other crazy thing you can think of. --The Way 05:32, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Delete, do not categorize. Punkmorten 07:20, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Delete these bands, say yeah. --Dhartung | Talk 08:27, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Delete. What on earth is the point of this? Words fail me. BTLizard 09:50, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Keep - There are many such lists. --NRS | ^T/_M\^B 12:49, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

The fact that there are other examples of a particular article type doesn't mean that any one given article should be kept. BigHaz - Schreit mich an 22:56, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

• Delete. Pointless. NRS says there are many such lists and s/he is right. There are also many dog turds, but it doesn't mean I'm keeping the one on the pavement outside my house. Emeraude 17:19, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Keep - Please be nice Emeraude. Everybody on wikipedia is entitled to their opinion, and I would also point out that whomever maintains the page might not appreciate having their work equated with 'dog turds'. As to the issue at hand, I added a link on the main list of musicians page to the list nominated for deletion. It is entirely possible that someone, somewhere could say, 'Hm, I'd like to make a playlist featuring bands whose names are a gramatically correct sentence.' If Wikipedia could meet this hypothetical person's needs, the efforts of this article's creator will not be wasted. Just my two pennies... -bobby 19:34, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Apologies. I didn't mean to equate this particular article with dog turds. The point I wanted (and perhaps failed) to make is that just because there are a lot of anything, it doesn't mean that any one or any number of them are worth preserving - in this case lists in general. Emeraude 19:55, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Delete Completely worthless to anyone, Unless you are doing an essay on pop culture use of complete sentences(which I doubt). Acsta 23:21, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Delete per Jayron32 and The Way. --KFP (talk | contribs) 13:11, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
• Keep I like this list and I find it interesting. Even though it's not informative in any particularly significant or useful way, I do not see how anyone would benefit as a result of deleting it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.93.21.40 (talk • contribs)

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The result was delete. Andre (talk) 21:44, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Within a Deep Forest

Non-notable independent game, does not pass WP:SOFTWARE. Andre (talk) 01:53, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

• Delete - And again, fails WP:SOFTWARE. Although Google returned some results, those are blogspots, not-notable. Cheers -- Imoeng 02:15, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Delete Changed vote. I'm tired of arguing over a crappy article. Please disregard the IP address addition of the PC Gamer reference. It makes no sense why a December edition is being released in October.
  • It may not make sense but it is acurate. (I made the edit, but forgot to log in) Issue 168 (Page 126 in case anyone has a copy and can confirm) of UK PC Gamer is labled as being the December issue and was released on October 26th. The issue released on November 23rd (169) will most likely be labled 'Christmas.' Its daft, but thats the way it is. --JamesGlover 21:45, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

CherryT 04:56, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

• • If you admit that it fails WP:SOFTWARE, then your other claims are irrelevant. It must pass that notability guideline or it should be deleted. Andre (talk) 03:53, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Also, you are the writer and main contributor of the article. Are you Nicklas Nygren or Sara Sandberg? Andre (talk) 03:55, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Delete The game's defender admits it fails WP:Software which is enough for deletion. The rest of his argument, that he 'enjoyed it' is irrelevant; I enjoy the bar down the street but I'm not creating an article for it. And also, Cherry, please refrain from ad hominem attacks about people being 'law nerds.' The AfD are here expressly to have Wikipedia guidelines applied to them, without exception. There's no more reason to grant an exception in this case than in any other. --The Way 05:38, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Delete fails WP:SOFTWARE. --Charlesknight 09:28, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Delete fails WP:SOFTWARE. Only two articles link here. That's not a lot of redlinks, certainly not enough to suggest that we need an article. Cherry, we don't have to prove the article is non-notable, you have to prove it's notable. There's really no such thing as 'proof' of non-notability, just the absence of verifiable sources demonstrating notability. If we can't find such sources, we consider the article non-notable. -- Vary | Talk 17:08, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Comment — google has 820 hits, that ain't bad; it seems like it is kind of notable to me... JoeSmack ^Talk(p-review!) 19:34, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
  • That's like hardly anything -- and also, Google hits aren't part of WP:SOFTWARE. Andre (talk) 03:14, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
  • JoeSmack: Please read the above statements. They are mainly blogs, which can be published by anyone.CherryT 04:58, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
• I'd say the concept of the article is a keep, but it was clearly written by a crazed fanboy and I'd rather have no article than the current one. But the game is notable in my experience. It's commonly cited to me as one of the greatest freeware games of all time, despite the fact it's only a few months (?) old. -- 70.251.0.41

so what if it is cited to you? What can you offer in the way of sources? --Charlesknight 22:34, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

I, CherryT Authorize Deletion of this article. The deletion is posted. This article may be deleted unless there is no longer a consensus on the deletion of this article. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by CherryT (talk • contribs) .

You don't have the power to authorize anything, but we'll take that as a delete vote. Andre (talk) 04:04, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

That should be changed then... an author should have the power to request speedy deletion if he/she feels that the copy he/she created doesn't belong on Wikipedia. That's like a webhost saying that I can't delete HTML pages on my webserver, or that an author can't tell his publisher to stop distributing his books.

CherryT 04:56, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

When you add a page to Wikipedia, you release your prose under the GFDL and therefore it ceases being "your" copy, so your analogies are false. There is, however, this rule: Any page for which deletion is requested by the original author, provided the page's only substantial content was added by its author and was mistakenly created. If the author blanks the page, this can be taken as a deletion request. In this case that rule clearly does not apply because you didn't mistakenly create the article. Andre (talk) 20:26, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

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The result was delete. Considering these were created by a spammer, their accuracy is in question. They may be redirected where appropriate, and I would be happy to restore to a temporary location any of them that would be useful for merging information or for transferring to wiktionary if you think you have the appropriate expertise to verify them. —Centrx→talk • 05:28, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Anaplerosis

Also nominated are:

• Cataplerosis
• Glyceroneogenesis
• Readily releasable pool
• If I Were a Rock Star, I'd Wear a Blue Dress

Delete all — editors AmberLeigh (talk · contribs), Grooooopster (talk · contribs), Rufus the man (talk · contribs), 24.167.218.150 (talk · contribs), 141.106.188.156 (talk · contribs) and 141.106.188.141 (talk · contribs) have been systematically adding links to the external site in these articles. Besides adding the links to numerous existing articles, these articles were also created. The edits appear to be a conflict of interest and original research. The author of the If I Were ... novel is also listed as the website contact. JonHarder 01:59, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

• Move the first three articles to Wiktionary. Not enough information, and only consist of definitions. Cheers -- Imoeng 02:22, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Keep all but the last one. My bias would be to create a single article for the subjects of anaplerosis and cataplerosis, merging in anaplerotic reactions, as these are real terms but not used terribly often. Glyceroneogenesis is a definite keep; readily releasable pool could be merged to synaptic vesicle. Oh, and obviously remove the linkspam. Opabinia regalis 04:27, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Delete the last one . Move the other four to Wikitionary. --NRS | ^T/_M\^B 12:52, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Merge Merge any verifiable content, after providing journal or book references, to Synapse. Delete the fourth article. Edison 15:55, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Keep the first three. Neutral regarding the last one. Please do not nominate unrelated articles in the same nomination. --Richard 18:58, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment - they are all related: all by the same author and all for the purpose of linkspamming. JonHarder 19:12, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
• Note - I've deleted the last one. -GTBacchus^(talk) 23:54, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete or transwiki all. And now I must go see a therapist, because the nightmares I had of the eight-foot-long color-coded diagram of the Krebs cycle that I had to draw in college have returned, and they threaten my sense of self. ;-) KrakatoaKatie 01:04, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

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The result was delete. Can't sleep, clown will eat me 06:49, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Phantom Mobile Device Vibration Syndrome

Per WP:OR, or, if not that, WP:NEO. Article feels extremely "hoaxey", two (unreliable) sources cited, and a Google search for this exact phrase turns up nothing. Skipped ProD process to allow appropriate discussion. A potential candidate for WP:BAD. Green451 02:03, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

• Delete - Fails WP:OR. And the sentence It is not known how many people experience these phantom sensations in their left or right thighs... clarifies it's non-notability and OR (also with unreliable sources). Cheers -- Imoeng 02:26, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Delete because I have Compulsive Deleter of Dumb Articles on Made-Up Syndromes Syndrome. Opabinia regalis 04:28, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Delete, probably WP:OR by a student, certainly deletion-worthy! --11:34, 27 October 2006 (UTC) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by SunStar Net (talk • contribs) .
• Delete. I don't agree that it's WP:OR or a hoax. The two links show that it's a real neologism, but I don't think it meets Wikipedia's guidelines for neologisms because there are no reliable sources establishing the origin of the term or its notability. Also, this subject has been repeatedly deleted under the title Phantom mobile device vibration. TheronJ 13:53, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Delete Certainly it happens that one feels something like a pager or cell phone vibration when it is just random muscle contractions. That can result in checking the phone and there was no call, or in failintg to respond to a call, believing it is a phantom. But there should be more info, tied to medical sources such as journal articles or textbooks for there to be an article about it. Not just an OR observation. The second reference in the article actually says "..no studies have looked into this phenomenon,." Please come back with a useful article when there are studies. Edison 16:00, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Delete OR, fails WP:V. -- Vary | Talk 17:21, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Delete this does happen to me all the time. anoyone else??? there is a link to an article, but most of it seems to be original research. Audiobooks 18:39, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Dele– 'scuse me, I have to take this ➥the Epopt 02:18, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

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The result was delete. - Mailer Diablo 06:59, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Ivanov Salad

Not notable, maybe original research. I never heard of this supposedly "traditional Russian Food", no Google references, tomatoes (shown on the picture) are an impossible ingredient in the ivan IV time, lemon juice was rare and expensive in Northern Russia and Siberia until very recent times, thery improbable ingredient for a traditional dish. Delete unless referenced Alex Bakharev 02:13, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

• Delete - Google search returned nothing. Possible WP:OR. Cheers -- Imoeng 02:31, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Delete no such thing - CrazyRussian talk/email 03:03, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Delete per CrazyRussian above Tom Harrison ^Talk 03:05, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Delete nonexistent subject deserves a nonexistent article. Opabinia regalis 04:29, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Deleted salad. KNewman 04:55, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• delete as possible hoax. --Jayron32 04:59, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Abstain I abstain. -Lapinmies 12:26, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Delete. A hoax.—Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) • (yo?); 13:46, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Delete. Never heard about it. Encyclopaedia Editing Dude 15:06, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Delete but keep for WP:BJAODN - funny hoax for use of anachronisms, as mentioned above. No references to back it up either. SunStar Net 18:48, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Delete no references, no problem Nach0king 21:30, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

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The result was delete. W.marsh 00:35, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Tommy T. Rapisardi

Does not meet WP:NOT, no other page links to it, all its non-generic links are broken, page hasn't been updated since it's creation. Flabreque 02:12, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

• Delete Does assert some important stuff, but simply doesn't appear to meet WP:BIO. Yanksox 02:29, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Weak Keep - The band name is a red link and no source at all. Seems WP:OR. But Google search returned results of interviews and reviews. Cheers -- Imoeng 02:35, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

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The result was DELETE, nothing verifiable to merge. -GTBacchus^(talk) 00:15, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Miracle City Mall

Contested PROD. Yanksox 02:24, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

• Delete Appears to be a non-notable mall. TJ Spyke 02:38, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Merge with Titusville, Florida. I used to live in Titusville in the early 1990's and it was a dieing mall with all the kids going to Merritt Island to shop. Still, even at that point it was a somewhat notable mall. Jcam 03:36, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Merge per Jcam --Caldorwards4 09:07, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Delete - If you create an article for everything, it's goin' to be awfully difficult to maintain things --NRS | ^T/_M\^B 12:54, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Merge per Jcam.Edison 16:05, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Merge per Jcam as above, the mall is significant to the community itself, but we don't need a separate article about it as NRS mentioned. JYolkowski // talk 21:25, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Just out of sheer curiousity, how exactly is the mall important to the community? A mall is not inhereintly important to it's community. Yanksox 00:16, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
• Delete - I see nothing in the article that would merit inclusion on the Titusville, FL article. --cholmes75 ^{(chit chat)} 20:41, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
• Delete Malls are businesses, and there is no evidence that this meets the WP:CORP standards. GRBerry 14:47, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

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The result was nomination withdrawn by nominator, no "delete", "merge" etc. views presented. Daniel.Bryant 13:27, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Mory's

Non-notable club/bar/restaurant/whatever. Prod removed by author. Danny Lilithborne 02:47, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

But, sir, Mory's is quite famous. It is definitely not a non-notable club, and I don't say this because of any partisan issue. Mory's is a very old institution that was immortalized by Bing Crosby and Elvis himself in their songs. If you don't believe me, do some web-surfing. It means something to a few of us out there.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Ckkgourmet (talk • contribs) .

• Weak keep Some sources appear to grant some notability, such as this one from the Washington Post. Article could be rewritten though, reads a bit like an advertisement.--Húsönd 02:55, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Well, since hardly anyone can actually be a member of Mory's (I'm not--are you?), I guess I can hardly advertise the place!

Actually, changed my stance to neutral. The reference I provided isn't more than a quick mention, and I can't find any sources related to the connection between the establishment and Crosby/Elvis that suffice to assert notability.--Húsönd 03:02, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

You will find the connection to Elvis and the Whiffenpoof Song recorded here: http://users.pandora.be/davidneale/elvis/originals/list8.html and for Bing Crosby, take for instance the following: http://www.cduniverse.com/search/xx/music/pid/1103651/a/Bing:+His+Legendary+Years+1931-1957.htm As for Mory's itself, it just happens to be housed in a famous historical structure in of itself (dating to 1812, older than the club), one of the most notable places at an incredidbly famous institution, and one of the longest surviving institutions of its kind, a part of the texture of New Haven's history, and the history of American college life in the 19th century in particular. It's mentioned in any number of books on the area.

None of those sources contain a single mention of Mory's. Notability is not asserted.--Húsönd 03:31, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

But, sir, you don't seem to understand: they mention the "Whiffenpoof Song," an extremely well-known ballad amongst older Americans, which is all about Mory's. I think this is why you are so confused. Anyhow, your point is now moot, given the confirmation of the other responses below.

• Strong Keep I'll apply the "random bypasser" test. I'm a random bypasser (didn't go to Yale and never been to Mory's). But I've heard of Mory's. It's pretty famous - at least in some circles. I definitely think it's notable. --TheOtherBob 03:15, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

• STRONG KEEP As a Yalie myself, I can attest that Mory's is an important institution not only on the Yale campus but also nationally. It is an institution of American culture, given the world renown of the Whiffenpoofs's "Song". And I have been there when visiting celebrities and politicians have been in attendance, including NY Gov. George Pataki, President George (HW) Bush, senators, etc. It is a venerable national institution, surely of greater importance than the Elizabethan Club, and I strongly commend its merit in achieving a Wikipedia page. --User:rschon

• I should add that, as a new Wikipedian, I find it distressing that this type of contributed article is judged "Non-notable" by someone without any knowledge of the topic, so far as I can tell, and naturally enough without presenting any evidence whatsoever. --User:rschon
  • I think the idea that something is self-evidently notable is more distressing. The article has (or had) no sources whatsoever. Try reading some policies before making comments, specifically WP:AGF. I'll withdraw the nomination when the article backs up its claims of notability with sources. Danny Lilithborne 04:14, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
    • This is from Mory's website: https://www.memberstatements.com/tour/tours.cfm?tourID=4281&CFID=3615790&CFTOKEN=74446405. A few points it makes on notability:

1. The club/bar/restaurant is 150+ years old.

2. The club had 18,000 members in the 1960's.

3. The club was at one point the subject of a special act of the Connecticut General Assembly.

It does seem objectively notable, and worthy of inclusion. (Though I would certainly agree that it's not something everyone would have heard of or that you could easily find on a Google search - I by no means think this was a bad AFD to make (I might have made it myself if I hadn't heard of the place). I'm just strongly on the side of keep.)--TheOtherBob 04:35, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Book sources have been added to this page. By the way, this is getting completely out of hand. Clearly, notability is now obvious. User: Ckkgourmet

Mory's also happens to mentioned in the 20th century-Fox film "Winged Victory" btw.

• Alrighty, then. Nomination withdrawn. I'll get an admin to come by and close it. Danny Lilithborne 04:41, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Another case of a non-thinking delete nom --Ughmonster 09:31, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Please respect WP:CIVIL and WP:AGF, especially the latter in the case. Daniel.Bryant 13:27, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

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The result was delete. W.marsh 00:25, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] MOSEK

Fails to assert notability. Contested prod. MER-C 12:52, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

• Delete I think. Maybe it is used a lot in Denmark. QuiteUnusual 21:03, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
• Keep In fact it is not used very much in Denmark but quite a bit in other parts of the world. Anyway

is that a good argument for deletetion? I have also added a little bit of background material about MOSEK which people quite commonly ask us. Try search for cplex. This article is quite close to cplex article.--Erling D. Andersen 10:26, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

• • Use in Denmark wasn't given as a reason for deletion. It was stated as a suggestion as to why it appears to be non notable when searching for English references to it via Google et. al. QuiteUnusual 20:15, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
  • If you search for MOSEK on Google MOSEK comes out as the first hit. And there many references to MOSEK. Also note MOSEK is listed on second order cone programming and linear programming.--Erling D. Andersen 10:26, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Using google scholar I can find at least 15 scientific articles by third party citing MOSEK. (note: I started the MOSEK entry in wikipedia and I work for MOSEK). --Rsandvik 10:23, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
    • If you google for MOSEK, MOSEK is the first hit... that's hardly surprising is it given that it is a proper name? However, what you need for notability is references from other sites or works of authority to MOSEK. I can't find much from the UK computing press. Can you sign yours edits, it's good form. Thanks QuiteUnusual 08:23, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
    • Yes, but if you look a little down the list you will find other sites (commercial, open source and academic) that refer to MOSEK. e.g YALMIP, PLEXOS, solver.com,COIN,CirclePatterns, gplab e.t.c. Mosek was also compared to CPLEX in the the newsletter, "OR/MS Today, June 2005 issue". --Rsandvik 10:23, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

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• Delete, non-notable software. Article claims it is the first commercial product capable of solving a particular class of problem, but "first" notability in this case would apply to the first software to solve that problem, not the first one that's availbale commercially. —ptk✰fgs 03:00, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Keep When a commercial product appears, it marks a shift in how important a problem is to other people. I think that is notable. CPLEX is not the first software to solve LP and it's existence has not been challenged. --Rsandvik 18:49, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

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The result was Speedy Delete Cowman109^Talk 23:12, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Matt delligatti

Delete. There are no sources to verify the existence of the individual, the band, or the restaurant. Google search brings up 16 unique results, all of which regard a living, breathing Matt Delligatti in West Virginia. Contested prod. ... discospinster _talk 02:52, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

• Speedy Delete (A7) per nom.--Húsönd 03:08, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Speedy delete as per WP:CSD A7 and possibly G1. --Brad Beattie ^(talk) 06:13, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Speedy Delete - A7 Google returned other Delligattis. Cheers -- Imoeng 06:18, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Speedy delete per above. BTLizard 09:57, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Speedy Delete per above --NRS | ^T/_M\^B 12:56, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

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The result was delete. --Coredesat 03:59, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] M. J. Maddox

Non-notable writer. The books mentioned in the article have only 6 and 2 ghits, respectively, two of which are the Wikipedia article and the author's website. ^hello,gadren 02:52, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

• Delete as author fails WP:BIO. I tried looking the author up on google, but considering the number of pseudonyms used, I gather it'd be difficult to get an accurate number of GHits. Nevertheless, the article fails to assert notability. --Brad Beattie ^(talk) 06:10, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Speedy delete under CSD A7. --Dhartung | Talk 08:30, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• I see no evidence that any of her books meet WP:BK. In particular, worldcat finds almost no libraries holding these titles. Pascal.Tesson 18:40, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

Extra comment: the userpage of the creator suggests that the present article was in fact written by M. J. Maddox herself and this also raises strong conflict of interest issues. Pascal.Tesson 18:48, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

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The result was delete. - Mailer Diablo 07:01, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Soni (Indian family name)

• Delete: Wikipedia is not a phonebook. Already deleted once via WP:PROD but quickly recreated. Maybe meant to be a dab page but has no links. —Wknight94 (talk) 02:59, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Delete Directory/Dicdef type article, non-notable. Can't this be speedy? --The Way 05:44, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Speedy Delete per CSD A1 and possibly A7. No possible improvement. Cheers -- Imoeng 06:14, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Note: This debate has been included in the list of India-related deletions. -- Ageo020 (Talk • Contribs) 10:36, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Comment: I'm not sure what the standards are here but there is an entire category tree devoted to surnames, Category:Surnames, which includes Category:Indian family names. But most of them have some content as opposed to this one so it probably is borderline speedy. Dictdefs are specifically not speedy criteria though - see the first bullet point at WP:CSD#Non-criteria. —Wknight94 (talk) 11:16, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Most of the articles in Category:Surnames are disambig pages or about famous/notable families (eg. Baca Family of New Mexico or Auerbach (family)). Most of the pages in Category:Indian family names are about casetes or gotras. Probably, there are some deletion-worthy articles as well -- they should go. utcursch | talk 12:10, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

• Delete per nom. utcursch | talk 12:10, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Keep - Important article. And I have also added more matter on the article. I intend to add still more, so that the article doesn't remain a stub. Jagat Soni 13:07, 27 October 2006 (UTC)— Possible single purpose account: Jagat Soni (talk • contribs) has made few or no other contributions outside this topic.
• Delete We generally don't have an article on each name in existence in the world, although we have articles on notable individuals WITH that name. See: Mudd. Edison 16:13, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Comment If I read this correctly it is the Indian equivalent of "smith". Now smith as a name isn't listed in WIkipedia so neither should soni, but, but smith as an occupation is! --Mike 19:07, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Delete, assuming that no famous person has this name. Redirect if someone does. -Amarkov ^babble 23:11, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

• Redirect to Ambika Soni per Amarkov  Doctor Bruno  17:26, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

• Probably you didn't notice this, but the article is not located at Soni (which is already a disambig page). The article is located at Soni (Indian family name). Therefore, a redirect to Ambika Soni is not justified. utcursch | talk 09:32, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

• Delete: Wikipedia is not a telephone directoryJoshygeorge 07:09, 28 October 2006 (UTC).
• Delete, Indian name cruft. This type of article is unfortunately very common. Punkmorten 09:08, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

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The result was speedy delete per CSD G1. ···日本穣^{? · Talk to Nihonjoe} 05:01, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Moscow, Nebraska

Does this city even exist? A google search brings up pretty much zip. NMChico24 03:01, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

• Delete Hoax. Yahoo Maps and Google Earth are unaware of the existence of this place, which is rather impossible for a town with 25,000 inhabitants.--Húsönd 03:06, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Don't Delete!!! My hometown —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Alismatic (talk • contribs) .

Note User Alismatic is tagging this discussion for speedy deletion and has created another hoax article.--Húsönd 03:19, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

• Delete although there is a very tiny Moscow in Kansas, so it could be a mistake, but this looks like a deliberate hoax. Andrew Lenahan - Starblind 03:28, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Delete There's no such place except in somebody's head. Per above, there's no mistake; the Moscow, Kansas article is already there. --Marriedtofilm 03:31, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Delete, no such place in the world, maybe in someone's mind. --Terence Ong _{(T | C)} 03:34, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

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The result was delete. W.marsh 00:36, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The Karnak Hates Everything Show

Absolutely nn sprite comic, found here. Manages less than 25 hits on Google. - Hahnchen 00:52, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

• Merge to Bob and George. It's a subcomic of that comic. --Coredesat 01:22, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
• Delete, no signs of reliable sources discussing this topic, Wikipedia is not an internet guide. -- Dragonfiend 04:32, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
• Delete per Dragonfiend. EVula 15:45, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
• Merge to Bob and George, not notable enough for its own article. -Elmer Clark 01:54, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
• Merge just keep the information around. Alpharigel 18:44, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Don't Merge - This is like voting to merge AzNAnGell14's myspace page to Myspace. We've shot down other subcomics like Metroid: Third Derivative and Misadventures before, it's time we shot down this one. - Hahnchen 03:48, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

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• Delete, I see no reason to merge. Probably qualifies as CSD A7. --Dhartung | Talk 08:32, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Delete as insufficiently notable. I don't believe that information that has not yet been properly verified should be merged. Can be added later once we have credible, third-party sources that confirm it. -- Satori Son 14:47, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Delete, doesn't deserve even a redirect. Ashibaka tock 14:55, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Delete — non notable, don't merge. it ain't worth it. JoeSmack ^Talk(p-review!) 19:39, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Don't Merge and Delete. Per Hahnchen. Anomo 09:59, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

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The result was delete. W.marsh 00:27, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Al Rostamani Group

Disputed notability, placing here so debate can take place. I'm choosing to Abstain for now. Change to Delete, after researching I can find very little notable about this other than its size, and I don't think much more could be added to the article. Seraphimblade 04:20, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

• Weak keep. Seems notable enough, and certainly is a UAE conglomerate. --N Shar 04:32, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
• Comment. Fairly large company as it seems. But if the article stays like that (one-line, hm.), a delete may be the solution. AQu01rius (User | Talk | Websites)  04:39, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
• Delete. Fails WP:CORP. Not listed in indices, not stock market listed, few (if any) mentions in published non-trivial works according to Google. Sure,it's quite big but doesn't seem very notable. QuiteUnusual 20:29, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Private companies are not listed in indices as they are not traded publicly. Being a private company alone doesn't exclude it from WP:CORP. Many extremely notable companies are private. --Marriedtofilm 02:35, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
    • Please read beyond the first comma in the sentence that you are responding to. Uncle G 15:29, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
      • Please comprehend the response was specifically to the "Not listed in indices, not stock market listed" argument for deletion. We are not required to respond to entire contents of paragraphs ... and that we should assume in good faith we read them in their entirety. --Marriedtofilm 15:48, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
        • That your response erroneously failed to address anything beyond the comma, where QuiteUnusual had already addressed the other criteria in WP:CORP, is indeed the very point that I made. It's rather amusing that you are asking that others comprehend that you ignored everything beyond the comma and responded to half a sentence with a point that had been already addressed in the other half. We already do. Uncle G 16:17, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
          • The user stated "Not listed in indices, not stock market listed" as an argument for deletion along with what's beyond the comma. I choose to to counter what was specifically that argument. What's beyond the comma, "few (if any) mentions in published non-trivial works according to Google." is an additional point that the user was making. If you want to point out the fact I didn't respond to that second argument (which I assume in good faith is already apparent to the readers), go right ahead, but don't make a personal attack claiming I didn't read the whole thing. --Marriedtofilm 20:19, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Weak Keep. According to the company website, net assets are in excess of $550 million USD. One of the subsidiaries, Arabian Automotive Co, sounds fairly notable as a distributor of several major car marques. Website is very out of date though, so difficult to tell if company is still notable today. Given that the company is in private ownership, it's hardly surprising there's no stock market listing; that doesn't particularly make it non-notable. DWaterson 22:25, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Assets is not a measure of notability. Having a stock market listing is according to WP:CORP. QuiteUnusual 08:19, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Point of Information FYI, while net assets of a private company are not quite the same as the market cap of a publically traded company, note that a public company with less than US$2bn market cap is generally known in the finance world as a small cap company. Being in the $2bn to $10bn range is known as mid-cap. Large cap is >$10bn[20].This company's website says that its net asset worth is $1bn with not much debt... this most likely places it in the small cap range if it was publicly traded. Also, the UAE is a wealthy country, so it is not obvious that a <$2bn company is a dominant player. Also rough estimates for self-valuation by private companies which are not required to disclose any or verify (publicly audit) any financial information to the public should probably be considered an unreliable, self-publishing source for this particular kind of information Bwithh 04:45, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
    • As anyone who regularly invests in stocks or stock mutual funds knows, publicly traded companies very frequently will have market cap values that are much higher than the companies' actual value (real assests). This is usually attributed to investor speculation. Comparing a publicly traded company's "market cap" to a privately held company's "assets" is like comparing apples to oranges. --Marriedtofilm 06:48, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
      • It's not comparing apples to oranges, though they are different (and market cap value can be lower than the value of a company's "real assets"). Valuation of market cap or of assets is not primarily understood as the result of on the one hand, "speculation" or on the other, just "fire sale value" - its key that it must incorporate the expected future earnings of the combination of technical, human, and financial capital in place. A company's asset value doesn't just include the base price of tangible real assets. It's the market value of the tangible and intangible assets. Obviously if you fire the personnel, give up the goodwill, and sell off the equipment piece by piece, the "fire sale value" is going to be less than the sum of the parts. But we talking about the worth of a company, not a just a bunch of random stuff for sale. Anyway, my primary point was that a $1-2bn company is not that impressive. Bwithh 14:50, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
        • Comparing an unknown nonexistent "market cap" to the real "assets" of a private firm is not a correct method of gauging the scope of a company. As you said, the open market might value a company lower than a company's "real assets," as well has higher and sometimes several times higher. We just don't know. As this company is not publicly traded, any assumption on market cap value is guesstimation. --Marriedtofilm 20:28, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Weak Delete Impressive assets assuming above information is accurate, but the article itself makes no claim of notability, "number of employees" not being one of our criteria after all. -Elmer Clark 02:51, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

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• Keep and let grow. One of the big conglomerates and venture capitalists in the UAE with major holdings there (even a major sponsor of the very pricey Dubai World Cup). --Marriedtofilm 03:12, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Weak delete without prejudice. The company may be notable, but this doesn't tell me much about why. - Smerdis of Tlön 14:13, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Delete Noone has shown why this company is encyclopedically notable so far Bwithh 14:50, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Delete per Bwithh. ~ trialsanderrors 18:15, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

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The result was delete. - Mailer Diablo 07:01, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] List of data quality vendors

Jimbo proded this but the original author de-proded it, so I'm bringing this debate here. As I'm unfamiliar with the background of this article, I will take no sides in this debate. Scobell302 03:22, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

• Delete - No information why those are the only included vendors. No sources. It is also likely to be a major spam page. Cheers -- Imoeng 06:10, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Delete - It actually was a major spam page with useless external links.--Jimbo Wales 12:48, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Delete. Marketese. Pavel Vozenilek 14:30, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Delete Useless list (yet another one). Unless it includes every possible entry, any list is pointless. We should not be accepting articles on non-finite lists, so, for example, list of US States would be OK (if all 50 there); list of FA Cup winners OK (every year since inception). But this list will never be complete, does not exist as an entity outside of the article and should go. Emeraude 17:33, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Delete per Imoeng, Emeraude, and that other guy too. Newyorkbrad 00:58, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
• Stack-on delete, pure advertisment spam. Another list that would be impossible to complete, too. Daniel.Bryant 01:10, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

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The result was delete. W.marsh 00:28, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The Lounge

Comic in question fails WP:WEB. It's hosted on Comic Genesis, but past precedent (Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/After Eden) would suggest that it should be deleted if it fails to assert further notability. --Brad Beattie ^(talk) 03:25, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

• Delete - Based on past precedent and my Google search returned nothing about this comic. Cheers -- Imoeng 06:06, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Keep - The article in question, as well as any comic hosted on Keenspace, should also be restored. They all meet criterium 3 of WP:WEB. Rōnin 09:49, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Have you actually read WP:WEB? This article appears to FAIL all 3 criteria. TJ Spyke 21:57, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Keep per Rōnin. Havok (T/C/c) 10:33, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Comment. Take a look at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Alien Dice. Alien Dice is a comic hosted on Keenspace and it's article was quite recently put through the deletion process (result was delete). I think we have a precedent set that being hosted on Keenspace (now called Comic Genesis) isn't sufficient to meet WP:WEB. --Brad Beattie ^(talk) 11:00, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Comment. I see that you think that. I don't think there's any need to repeat a mistake on the basis that it was made before. Rōnin 11:03, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Keep as per Rõnin's comment. --Kizor 15:52, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Speedy Delete A7 - Does not assert the importance or significance of its subject. Does not meet our official content policies as it is unverifiable through reliable sources and WP:NOT an internet guide. Also fails our WP:WEB guideline in that this article does not reference multiple non-trivial sources or any well-known awards, and "Comic genesis" is not generally well-known and being hosted on "Comic genesis" is exceedingly trivial. They are a free web host with over 6,000 comics. If being hosted on "Comic genesis" were a significant historical event, then we would have third-party reliable sources with reputations for fact-checking and accuracy covering such comics. -- Dragonfiend 20:01, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Speedy Delete per Dragonfiend. TJ Spyke 21:57, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment. Speedy, speedy, speedy. What is it with deleters assuming fancruft, considering absence of proof the proof of absence, and trying to sidestep the entire AfD even when they're already winning? --Kizor 23:06, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

• Delete per nom. Anomo 10:01, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

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The result was no consensus. W.marsh 00:31, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Oshawa Civic Band

Non-notable musical ensemble. Prod tag removed with no explanation. cholmes75 ^{(chit chat)} 03:27, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

• Keep. Kappa 03:56, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

  Question - Any particular reason why? --cholmes75 ^{(chit chat)} 04:16, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

  Any particular reason why not? Kappa 04:36, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

  I covered that in my nomination. --cholmes75 ^{(chit chat)} 04:38, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

  You did? OK, my reason is "notable musical ensemble". Kappa 00:36, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

• Delete. I don't see any notability hanging around, and the apparently dead link to their site isn't going to help matters. BigHaz - Schreit mich an 04:13, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Delete per nom. EVula 05:18, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
  Weak Keep per Edison's comments. Like he said, WP:MUSIC isn't quite configured to handle something like this, so it should be ignored per WP:IAR. EVula 16:15, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
• Delete fails WP:MUSIC. Catchpole 09:10, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Merge or Weak Keep WP:Music is not well suited to judge musical groups other than pop music and rock bands. Most brass bands or choral groups, even if they have a national reputation, do not tour or have chart-topping CDs. Their role is as a part of the cultural base of the community. This one has been in place since 1870, and has had a bandroom and bandshell since 1940. They are one of a handful of such in Canada. They receive mention in several online listings of bands and in the Encyclopedia Canada reference. Having an active website is not a requirement for having an article. If Wikipedia has an article for every bus route and subway stop in the world, perhaps there should be a place for a community band such as this. If not, merge the info into Oshawa, Ontario. Edison 18:23, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Delete or merge. I agree that the criteria in WP:MUSIC do not suit non contempory culture bands well. However, there still has to be some notability beyond existing, eg. awards at competitive meets. Nuttah68 19:29, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

• Keep. long-existing band. interesting place in canadian miliary music history. thus notable. Justinpwilsonadvocate 16:10, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

  Question - How does existing for a long time merit an article? And what in the article indicates that it has an interesting place in Canadian military music history? --cholmes75 ^{(chit chat)} 20:55, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

• weak keep I'm not sure what my opinion should be about this, while Edison is correct that it might be unreasonable to apply WP:MUSIC in this case, and a google search turned up some additional sources. JoshuaZ 22:57, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
• Keep Might not be a current chart-topper, but has historic significance. --Oakshade 00:35, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
• Keep. I think that Edison's analysis is correct. --TruthbringerToronto (Talk | contribs) 02:35, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

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The result was delete. Punkmorten 12:29, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Ajax Basic

Fails Wikipedia:Notability (software), also clear from uploaders contributions, and note on my talk page that comes under WP:Vanity. Camillus (talk) 20:56, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

• Delete per nom. Nice idea, but it just isn't notable enough to be mentioned here. EVula 21:07, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
• Delete per nom. Also, I think this article was already created and speedy deleted. 70.108.90.59 23:14, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Apparently I wasn't signed in. My bad. Natalie 23:16, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
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• Delete — At the moment, it's just advertising. The product (site) needs to become more notable, so a neutral artcile can be written about it, meeting WP:SOFT and WP:WEB Martinp23 16:05, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Weak Delete - There is a fine line between asswertion of notability and self advertisement. It sounds like the creaters tried to explain why the program was important but the intentions are not clear. Chris Kreider 17:34, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

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The result was delete. - Mailer Diablo 07:02, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Take2

no claims to notability, no sources to show such, history suggest a vanity piece so, at the moment, it looks like a delete... Marcus22 20:03, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

• Delete per nom. EVula 20:38, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

• Don't Delete User:Take2abc 20, October 2006

I'm new to Wikipedia, so I'd like a chance to correct things for inclusion. I have reviewed the notability guidelines and this paragraph in particular: "Painters, sculptors, architects, engineers, and other professionals whose work is widely recognized (for better or worse) and who are likely to become a part of the enduring historical record of that field " I am a painter, my artwork, inlfuence and contributions to the graffiti art movement in Chicago has been chronicled in numerous newspapers, graffiti magazines and online websites. For example:

• Interview with DZINE: http://supertouchblog.com/?p=199
• Interview with RIDDLE: http://www.graffiti.org/riddle/riddle_6.html
• Chicago Sun-Times (Sunday, August 13th 1989 - Tag it as Art)
• Chicago Reader (Summer 1985)

Artwork is featured in numerous places online including:

• Deschini International: Designer handbags sold around the world: http://www.deschini.com/
• Artcrimes.com
• meetingofstyles.com

• Comments. Issues with Wikipedia:Conflict of interest here. Also, if deleted, suggest article be replaced with a redirect to Take Two (disambiguation). —Wrathchild ^(talk) 17:25, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
• Comment Take2: I'm no expert on sources, especially on US sources and/or graffiti art, so it would be good to hear from others about these. For me, at the moment, the two interviews do not look sufficient neither do the website references. The newspaper articles might be but they are, it looks, impossible to verify. (Anyone know otherwise?) My own feeling is that if sufficiently notable the article would have already been created and there would be no need to have created it yourself. That is the normal way of articles. It might be best to userfy the page and wait for your fame to reach others/spread further afield? I'm sure if that were to happen someone would recreate the article. Marcus22 19:10, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

 AFD relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so that consensus may be reached.
 Please add new discussions below this notice. Thanks, KrakatoaKatie 03:28, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

• Neutral/Comments The Sun-Times article is available on Factiva, and it does speak about Take. Unfortunately, the Chicago Reader online archives only go back to 1988, so I can't check the second newspaper article. (But I suspect Take2 is telling the truth.)

I disagree with the above comment that "if sufficiently notable the article would have already been created." There are many clearly notable topics which still do not have articles, for any number of reasons. (To pick a Chicago-related topic, former Chicago Bear Chris Zorich, who was a household name in the 90's and generates 20K google hits, is still a red link.) However, I do agree that it's generally not a good idea for someone to write an article about himself. Zagalejo 04:36, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

• Delete While self created articles are not an AUTOMATIC criteria for deletion, it is a red flag. As has been mentioned, if you are not notable enough for someone who never met you to write an article about you, you might not be notable for a wikipedia article. Still, SOME references have been provided, which is more than most self-promoted artists that try to get here Wikipedia. A google search turns up some mostly unreliable, self-published sites, but we do have this site which turns up, in turn, photocopies (copyvio anyone??? but still useful here!) of the actual newspaper articles mentioned above that review the work. Still, I am not sure we have enough here to meet two VERY important notability criteria: MULTIPLE sources and NONTRIVIAL coverage (that is, extensive coverage within the source). The MULTIPLE and NONTRIVIAL requirements of the primary notability crtieria to me would seem that we shouldn't need less than 5 minutes to read the entirety of the press coverage this subject has warrented. I was somewhat conflicted voting delete, but, while there is SOME reliable press coverage, it does not appear to be enough in either depth or bredth. --Jayron32 04:53, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Delete, fails WP:BIO. Making your mark takes a bit more, I'm afraid. --Dhartung | Talk 08:35, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Delete. It's a good rule of thumb that if nobody else thinks it's worth their while writing an article about you, then it's probably not worth your while either. BTLizard 10:02, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Delete Non-notable. Obina 14:11, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Delete — NN and per nom JoeSmack ^Talk(p-review!) 19:41, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

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The result was delete. Can't sleep, clown will eat me 06:50, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Fraudulent Online Identity Sanctions Act

Second nomination. See the THOMAS search for this legislation It is 2 year old dead legislation. According to the prior nomination, it was a weak keep, and the closing admin noted that it should be renominated if the article could not be improved. The article has not been improved, and given the status of the legislation in question, stands NO chance of being improved. Please delete it. Jayron32 03:34, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

• Delete, dead legislation almost always NN. --Dhartung | Talk 08:37, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Delete per above. MER-C 09:53, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Delete per nom.Obina 14:13, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Delete per above.--Kf4bdy ^{talk contribs} 18:01, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Delete If it's still in legistation and not having notability, then delete. It can always be recreated if the issue gains traction. --Oakshade 00:20, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

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The result was speedy delete as hoax per CSD G1. ···日本穣^{? · Talk to Nihonjoe} 05:10, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Walawala Middle School

High school hoax located in town hoax (see Articles for deletion/Moscow, Nebraska). Húsönd 03:38, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

• Delete, part of the Moscow, Nebraska hoax --Aim Here 03:41, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Delete as a hoax. Hard for it to be real if it's in a town which doesn't exist. BigHaz - Schreit mich an 04:15, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

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The result was Speedy deleted by admin BanyanTree (reason: csd g10 - I'm getting no Google hits for the combination of names that aren't Wikipedia). Non-admin closing of orphaned AFD per WP:DPR. Serpent's Choice 04:07, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] S.S. of America

Non-notable hate group. A Google search for "'SS of America' -wikipedia" yields 40 hits. My name yields 121. The references that do appear come from fringe-element newsletters, blogs, forums, and other non-notable media. Consequentially 05:41, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

• 'Delete: NN --Saganaki- 07:21, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Comment We don't care about if the other sources are notable, we care if they're reliable. Night Gyr (talk/Oy) 17:35, 27 October 2006 (UTC)\

The wording is my mistake. Still, they paint a pretty bland picture. The ADL and CDR websites -- the three two most reliable websites on search results -- refer to them only as a street gang, in reference to the Confederate Knights. The Public Eye article, also reliable, refers to their self-published notice in a Neo-Nazi zine. The remaining sources refer back to those three articles, or have nothing to do with the organization we're talking about. The last 20 search results are equal parts typos like "busine ss of america," or statements like "the Marines are the SS of America." So two minor references in lists of skinhead street gangs, a claim posted from their self-published zine, and typos. Consequentially 18:20, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

• Undecided I'm all for exposing Nazi thugs, but something about this doesn't seem right. No sources cited; a lot of personal attacks. Above comment is of course correct, notability depends on accurate resources which are not necessarily in themselves notable in the same sense. More information needed Emeraude 17:43, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Delete, notability, QuiteUnusual 20:24, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

• Speedy delete as unsourced and potentially libelous, since it names names. Night Gyr (talk/Oy) 20:51, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

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The result was Redirect to Survivor: Cook Islands (Delete, not independently notable). —Centrx→talk • 05:33, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Anh Tuan Bui

He should not have a page as he is not famous. Js1285 05:41, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

• Redirect to Survivor: Cook Islands--TBCΦtalk? 05:52, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Redirect until more info have been added (with sources). I think people can find sources for this article, as Survivor is a pretty big thing. Cheers -- Imoeng 06:02, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

• Keep There was more info & sources, but then JS1285 deleted it all right after putting up this notice. Plus, he's a world record holder. (I also think it's a bit early to put this back so soon after the previous AFD)

• Keep for the reasons stated in the unsuccessful Cao Boi afd a few weeks ago. Really, the material should be merged and redirected to Cao Boi, which is his commonly known name. (See Wikipedia:Naming_conventions_(common_names)). A trivial google search shows more than enough media coverage to meet baseline WP:BIO standards. TheronJ 14:06, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

"trivial" being the operative word here Bwithh 00:16, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

• Delete unless it is now policy that everyone who has appeared on TV is worthy of an article. Otherwise, what else in this biography is so extraordinary that it makes the subject stand out? Emeraude 17:47, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Comment That would be a heap more more stub articles on nn people if this extended to game show contestants ;). --Arnzy (talk ·  contribs) 08:54, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

• Keeperooni FireSpike 20:26, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Merge and Redirect to Cao Boi or vice versa per the previous AfD. Maxamegalon2000 22:11, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Cao Boi already redirects to this article. Bwithh 00:14, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

• Delete/Redirect to Survivor: Cook Islands Realitytvcruft. No encyclopedic notability whatsoever. Wikipedia is not a reality TV fansite Bwithh 00:14, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
• Delete AND redirect to appropriate Survivor season per Emaraude. --Arnzy (talk ·  contribs) 08:48, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
• Delete/Redirect per Bwith TeckWiz is 12 yrs old^TalkContribs_{# of Edits} 19:31, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
• Keep. There's some valuable info in here. íslenskur fellibylur #12 _(samtal) 14:25, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
• Delete Great guy but not notable. - Tutmosis 00:33, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

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The result was no consensus. W.marsh 00:42, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] List of Czech given names

Per WP:WINAD and prior strong precedent, I have transwikied this article to wikt:Appendix:Czech given names, where it is more appropriate. Lists of names are not encyclopedic, but they do belong in Wiktionary, and that's where we have moved them before (e.g., see Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/List of first names). This should now be deleted. Dmcdevit·t 06:00, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

• Delete per nom. MER-C 10:51, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Delete. WP is not a calendar. No idea why the diminutives were included. Among the diminutives I see quite a few typos and mistakes. Pavel Vozenilek 14:36, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Delete per nom. And ditto all similar articles. Emeraude 17:48, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Keep. As it's a careful selection, it should be included. Wikipedia is not paper. Obviously, typos should be fixed. Lists are definitely encyclopedic. -- User:Docu

This is adapted from what I wrote in the discussion of the similar article, List of Armenian given names, but it equally holds here.

How are lists definitely encyclopedic"? I couldn't agree less. Lists should have a place if, and only if, they are of a clearly defined finite content of things that actually belong together as a list. Examples might be 'List of countries in the European Union' or 'List of metallic elements' or 'List of best actor Oscars' (though even the last two are not necessarily worthy of their own page if they could be better included as part of articles on 'Elements' or 'Oscar winner' respectively). The list must belong together - it must have meaning AS A LIST. This list does not qualify - it must be totally impossible and certainly impractical to list EVERY Armenian given name, and even if it could be done, is it necessary? Let the Mormons collect names; Wikipedia is not a genealogy database.

User:Docu rather destroys his argument when he says "it's a careful selection." Precisely. Emeraude 22:05, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

It's not just a list of first names, it's a list of Czech first names, sufficiently carefully made to be included in other Mediawiki projects. Not every list needs to be exhaustive, afterall, Wikipedia hasn't reached that point either  ;) -- User:Docu

• Here I can say something. History of Czech given names could be interesting - which one's were popular in the past, what were the trends, what was the situation during communist regime, etc. Currently, official list of allowed names does exist (and a book listing them was published) but exceptions could be granted by request. Statistics of most popular names are here: for females, for males, most popular child names during recent years, list of allowed names online. There was a media splash when some "alternative" parents named their baby "Midnight Storm" and civil service forced them to pick something more common.

I am not principially against this kind of lists but I do not like copy-pasted collection of words from unknown source, with mistakes and without any context at all. If this is kept I am able to rewrite it, though. Pavel Vozenilek 12:48, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

• Keep I'm writing a novel set in Prague and I'm finding that this is a very useful reference for me in coming up with character names. This is the kind of thing that wikipedia can do well and should do. Quality issues should be addressed by improving the quality, not by deleting the article. Donald Hosek 04:31, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

• Keep I am looking for names in different cultures and Wikipedia is the first adress I am looking Cattleyard 12:30, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

• Keep As a student of Czech, I find this page fascinating and educational. sanderlewis

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The result was no consensus. W.marsh 00:44, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] List of Armenian given names

Per WP:WINAD and prior strong precedent, I have transwikied this article to wikt:Appendix:Armenian given names, where it is more appropriate. Lists of names are not encyclopedic, but they do belong in Wiktionary, and that's where we have moved them before (e.g., see Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/List of first names). This should now be deleted. Dmcdevit·t 06:00, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

• Delete per nom. MER-C 10:51, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Delete per nom. And ditto all similar articles. Emeraude 17:48, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Keep. As it's a careful selection, it should be included. Lists are definitely wikipedic. If it's useful also for other Mediawiki projects, it's good to add it there as well. -- User:Docu

How are "lists definitely wikipedic"? I couldn't agree less. Lists should have a place if, and only if, they are of a clearly defined finite content of things that actually belong together as a list. Examples might be 'List of countries in the European Union' or 'List of metallic elements' or 'List of best actor Oscars' (though even the last two are not necessarily worthy of their own page if they could be better included as part of articles on 'Elements' or 'Oscar winner' respectively). The list must belong together - it must have meaning AS A LIST. This list does not qualify - it must be totally impossible and certainly impractical to list EVERY Armenian given name, and even if it could be done, is it necessary? Let the Mormons collect names; Wikipedia is not a genealogy database. Emeraude

There may be a confusion about given names and surnames. Genealogy is mainly about the later. -- User:Docu

• Keep. Agreed that lists are wikipedic. It helps identify Armenian names, besides there are English names on wikipedia, why not Armenian? You do not need EVERY Armenian name, the list is already pretty big and covers alot of the names used by the 7-8 million Armenians in the world. If it get's deleted and moved, then include all lists of given names. Thanks. Fedayee 23:01, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
• Conditional Keep Unless every single article within [[Category:Lists of given names]] is deleted I vote for a keep.--Eupator 23:17, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
• Keep.Given names is an important part of a culture. Also it would be a double standart to delete Armenian names list and keep others.--Hattusili 00:50, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
• Keep The article shouldn't be deleted, but it may need to be moved to Wiktionary. This, however, requires a different tag, not the deletion one. -- Augustgrahl 02:04, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
• Keep Agree that which names belong to which cuture and language are important and useful information. I suggest the article needs ekpansion instead to make it more informative - list meanings, etymology of the names etc. -- Athanatis 11:14, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

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The result was no consensus Information could be merged as mentioned though. W.marsh 00:47, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] March_Book

Non-notable book by a non-notable writer. Author's Wiki article is also being considered for deletion as he is a non-notable writer and both this book entry and his Wiki biography appear to be written by himself or someone very close to him -- i.e. no objective or unbiased sources. Wikipedia is not a place for self-promotion.

• Delete - My Google search returned nothing related. Fails WP:NOR. Cheers -- Imoeng 06:36, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Weak keep (possibly merge to Jesse Ball. Not so fast. There are valuable concerns with the write-up but as far as evaluating the notability of poets, I think we can all agree that the Google test is likely to fail miserably. The book has been published by a fairly solid publisher and has had some non-trivial reviews, possibly enough to build a decent article on reliable sources. Pascal.Tesson 19:04, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
• Comment I made comments on Mr. Ball on the deletion discussion page for his main page. You can see them here. Ethan L. Schreiber 21:49, 29 October 2006 (EDT)

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The result was delete. None of the keep votes give a policy or guideline reason for keeping the article, nor do they address the concerns raised by the nominator. --Coredesat 04:03, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Sustainability Management

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Article by Daniel Odry promoting his management philosophy. Is it original research? Does it actually say anything about sustainability? (Note that it is not a copyvio - the PDF from which it is taken includes an explicit copyright release.) -- RHaworth 06:27, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

• Delete - It is more like an essay rather than an encyclopedic entry. Fails WP:WWIN#Wikipedia_is_not_a_publisher_of_original_thought. Cheeers -- Imoeng 06:42, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Delete - Appears likely to be original research, certainly not a noted and accepted theory even if not. Seraphimblade 06:48, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Do Not Delete This Article gives the definition of sustainability management which is supported by the sustainability community and many others-see the links. People with differing opinions can edit the article and make additions... — Bauk (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

Comment - Unfortunately, Wikipedia is not a place for opinions. We are dealing with facts here. Please see WP:WWIN. Cheers -- Imoeng 09:52, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Comment - Please express your definition of opinion and fact concerning this matter. Please give some examples of proof, that can show that this is an opinion and not a commonly shared definition or fact. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bauk (talk • contribs)

I was referring to the comment above me "People with differing opinions can edit the article and make additions...". Wikipedia is not the place to write opinions. Cheers -- Imoeng 11:56, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

• Do Not Delete This articel contents publish reasearch results being published and accepted by the sustainability community. I think to edit this article to fullfill the meaning of Sustainability Management would enable more than to talk about deleting. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Rgegusch (talk • contribs) — Rgegusch (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
• Do Not Delete I believe it's a widely shared definition. K. Herrmann — This comment was left by User:84.190.213.72 (talk • contribs)
• Do Not Delete This article is part of a research and gives some interesting and precise information concerning "sustainability". M.Mijajlović — This comment was left by Mijajlom (talk • contribs)— Mijajlom (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
• Do Not Delete I think this article gives a good insight and interesting facts concerning the connection of management and sustainability . A. König — This comment was left by User:130.149.137.114 (talk • contribs)
• Do Not Delete Sustainability Management is a concept that support the implementatio of sustainability in companies. It makes sense to leave this entry. M.Vanegas — This comment was left by User:130.149.137.53 (talk • contribs)
• Strong delete Delete because it's an essay/original research. Strong because of one of the most pathetic attempts at sockpuppetry in recent memory. Andrew Lenahan - Starblind 12:37, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Vehement delete per Andrew Lenahan. This is pure bollocks, intolerably vague and abstract: "The main task of Sustainability Management is the set-up and maintenance of a modern corporate culture with social contribution for achievement as superior leadership guideline." It's unlikely this could ever be rewritten in plain English because people who write in this manner will not, and those who write plain English will find there's "no 'there' there" in the subject. - Smerdis of Tlön 14:20, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Strong Delete per Andrew Lenahan and Smerdis of Tlön. I shouldn't have tried to read and understand the article, but I did, and now my head hurts. Edward Wakelin 15:40, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Strong delete per nom and Andrew. -- Vary | Talk 17:30, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Delete as unencyclopedic and original research. (Plus the articles sustainability and sustainable development cover the topic already.)--Ed (Edgar181) 17:38, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Delete for the opposite of all the reasons given above under Do Not Delete. Uncyclopaedic. OR. etc etc. Emeraude 17:52, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Delete WP:NOR QuiteUnusual 20:36, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Delete While there may be certain strains in the debate of sustainability and sustainable development regarding sustainability of commerce and the role of corporations, these concepts are very far removed from the original research found in this article. --The Way 00:19, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
• Delete per The Way. All above IPs are from the same location. Michaelas10 (T|C) 09:45, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
• Not DeleteSeems not as riginal research, maybe add more references. Sunny — This comment was left by User:88.73.52.144 (talk • contribs)
• Not Delete The article shows the fact that process and structure of organizational communications and interactions presupposes one another. No organization can reproduce a sutible superior leadership guideline (structure) without the acknowledgement of the activities of their stakeholders (process). The suggestion that education (especially adult education) is impotant to compile information about organizational processes is fitting with the latest state of reasearch to the concept of employability. Nils B. — This comment was left by User:217.233.20.108 (talk • contribs)
• Weak Delete I see evidence from Google searching that this is a real buzz-word in corporate management circles. I didn't find any reliable sources that we could use to have a decent article. While I suspect they exist; this text is not a real help to us. GRBerry 14:54, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
• Do Not Delete This article gives a simple overview of Sustainability Management and is therefore great help for even those who have nothing to do with the matter, but want to study further. I consider this article an approved opinion, in no sense an original research! Quotations and further reading links are given. so why not keep it in? This article may need to be expanded but not deleted. [[[sandkamper]]]

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The result was speedily deleted as no context, non-notable by Nihonjoe. --Elkman - (Elkspeak) 21:22, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Richard MacManus

Non-notable blogger, one-line article, little to no additional secondary-source material seems available. Seraphimblade 06:44, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

• Speedy Delete -- per CSD A1 and A7. Cheers -- Imoeng 06:51, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Speedy delete per above. So tagged. MER-C 10:50, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Speedy Delete - Per aboce.Chris Kreider 11:25, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Weak delete but not speedy. Over 200k ghits MacManus%22&start=0&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8 Computerjoe's talk 16:02, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

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The result was merge to Ghost in the Shell. --Ezeu 22:38, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Armed suit

Contested prod. Prod rational "fancruft. far too in-universe, and I doubt this will ever be "fixed"". I would prefer delete but some merging might be acceptable. -- Ned Scott 06:49, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

• Note: This debate has been included in the list of Anime and manga-related deletions. -- Ned Scott 06:51, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Merge with Ghost in the Shell. If the article has had more information with sources, I think it can have it's own name. Cheers -- Imoeng 06:54, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Weak Keep, if not, then Merge into Ghost in the Shell. These things do serve a decent purpose in the series, but I think the article does need some work. SuperDT 13:28, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• merge to Ghost in the Shell or weak keep, if expanded to include Landmates and other Masamune Shirou mecha. Shiroi Hane 17:55, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Note: This debate has been included in the list of Japan-related deletions. -- Yptype 09:50, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
• Merge or Delete I prefer delete over merge as this seem to be original research, however we have several GiTS tech articles which need to be updated to follow the fiction writing guidelines and merging them would also help them to within the fiction notability guidelines which suggest concatenating such info. Ghost in the Shell really isn't a viable merge point. --Kunzite 04:36, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
• Merge to Ghost in the Shell glossary (just like Neon Genesis Evangelion glossary). And maybe we could merge List of organizations in Ghost in the Shell into there as well. - kollision 09:23, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

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The result was keep; tagged for spam clean-up. Daniel.Bryant ^{[ T · C ]} 06:16, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] NIIT

Reads like advertising copy or extreme fancruft. --Saganaki- 06:58, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

• Article needs to be rewritten/reorganised but definately not deleted. IrfanAli (talk) 08:18, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Keep. It easily meets WP:CORP by the level of media coverage (try Google News). --Mereda 08:22, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

• Comment Could you place some of these in the article? This prevents having this discussion again in the future. ColourBurst 16:16, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

• Note: This debate has been included in the list of India-related deletions. -- Mereda 08:22, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Weak keep but tag for improvement. It definitely seems notable. --Dhartung | Talk 08:46, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Rewrite and Keep notable indian corp. Has a revenue of 80 million dollars, and is listed on the bombay stock exchange. Most indian cities have an niit training centre as well. Systematic bias --Ageo020 (Talk • Contribs) 10:05, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Keep per Mereda - notable company. -- Lost^(talk) 11:16, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Keep. Clean-up/Rewrite. utcursch | talk 12:11, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Rewrite and Keep Notable Institute  Doctor Bruno  12:47, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Strong Keep-Famous educational institute.Nileena joseph 14:55, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Strong and Speedy Keep. Notable and popular organisation. Meets the incusion criteria. — Ambuj Saxena (talk) 10:24, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
• Speedy Keep.notable institute.Devapriya 17:53, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
• Keep - Notable. JeremyStein 17:35, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
• Keep - Notable. It is a listed company on the BSE. -- Ganeshk (talk) 01:45, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

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The result was delete. Luna Santin 09:11, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Grou.ps

Non-notable website with claims of notability being alexa ranking and membership numbers, though the numbers are not backed with supporting evidence –– Lid^(Talk) 07:06, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Delete - Although it is true that it has 93,000 alexa rank here. However with no sources (I have Googled and most are blogs), this fails WP:NOR. Cheers -- Imoeng 07:39, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Blog coverage means a lot. See http://technorati.com/search/grou.ps—Preceding unsigned comment added by Vincentblanc (talk • contribs)

Comment For Wikipedia purposes, blog coverage means very little. See Wikipedia:Reliable Sources. -- Fan-1967 14:42, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

• Delete, still in alpha and no WP:RS coverage yet. No judgement on the software, of course. --Dhartung | Talk 08:45, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Delete per above. MER-C 09:43, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Keep — 70.107.109.8 (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

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The result was keep. Daniel.Bryant ^{[ T · C ]} 06:18, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Robert Lawrence Kuhn

Hagiography and possible autobiography. Apparently being edited/created by one user using a series of differnt anon IPs. History shows editing by a series of IP addresses, each address has only been used to edit the biography. Author has highly detailed knowledge. If this is not outright autobiography then it's at least someone who knows the author down to the contents of his CV Saganaki- 07:12, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

• KeepThis person seems notable, and the statements seem verifiable. If the article is too biased, and there is too much original research etc., then the solution is to boldly edit it, not to delete it.Obina 09:29, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Keep but clean up and pare down extensively - I'm concerned that the lead paragraph at least may be a copy-and-paste job of bios elsewhere. But he's obviously notable; a very quick Google search turns up quite a bit of reference, including this one from PBS, the first one that caught my eye. Lots to work with here, it just needs a lot of work. Tony Fox (arf!) 20:36, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Hi Guys: Here's the story; I appreciate your sage advice/help. Some time ago, I was alerted to a Wiki bio posted on me that was very short and almost totally in error, and what was marginally correct was 30 years old -- there was little reference to anything I had done in recent years -- in other words, an embarrassing distortion. Friends, associates were emailing me -- I host a PBS series, Closer To Truth, on the implications of frontier science, www.pbs.org/closertotruth. What to do? So I added accurate, recent material, perhaps in the Wiki Spirit too much (which I've just taken out). Furthermore, a recent posting criticized my admittedly controversial biography of former Chinese President Jiang Zemin, which was the #1 best-selling nonfiction book in China in 2005 and was published worldwide by Random House / Crown, “as being propaganda and largely untrue, having been commissioned by Jiang Zemin himself”. This calumny is wholly untrue, but in the Wiki Spirit, I did not delete its false and scurrilous accusation (almost anything related to Chinese politics, I understand, can become emotional and there are diverse points of view, all of which should be heard), but rather in response I quoted myself from Foreign Affairs magazine, a most reliable source, in answering the same charge. Seeing and appreciating your comments, I’ve just tried to pare down the bio, make it more NPOV, an acronym I’ve just learned. I’m an amateur at this; I'll happily have Hands Off, if’s that’s the policy, so long as inaccuracies are not promulgated and defacing (however subtle) is not permitted. Much of this material on me can be confirmed on the Internet (though some of the bios are outdated). In conclusion, I love Wikipedia, appreciate your commitment and vigilance, want to conform, but do not want errors of any kind to remain nor inserted biased commentary to go answered. Help, my friends! Robert Lawrence Kuhn 29 October 2006.

• Keep Looks to meet WP:BIO standards readily. I added the {{WPBiography}} tag to the talk page so that it will be on the BLP Patrol's radar screen, and the Biography Project's to do list. GRBerry 15:45, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

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The result was delete. - Mailer Diablo 07:03, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Jamie Laird

This nomination concerns Jamie Laird and Anthony Mason (footballer), footballers who have never played in a professional league, the minimum requirement set forth by WP:BIO. Get rid of the pictures as well. Punkmorten 07:15, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

• Delete both per nomination; neither has played at a senior professional level yet. Qwghlm 07:33, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Weak Keep Jamie Laird. He plays in the second division English league, which is a professional career. However sources should really be included in the article. If not, fails WP:NOR and WP:V Cheers -- Imoeng 07:49, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Also Weak Keep for Anthony Mason. Stragely, the infobox clearly stated his professional career. Cheers -- Imoeng 07:51, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
    • Delete - they are youth team players with a pro club, they have never played in any pro matches themselves, also the "pro career" Imoeng refers to in Mason's infobox only shows a loan spell at Tiverton Town, who are not a pro team and don't play in a fully-pro leagueChrisTheDude 08:56, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Delete both Youth team players. Catchpole 09:12, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Delete both Half the kids in the UK play football conncted to a FA club. Obina 09:33, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Delete both per Catchpole, and even though I was born in Plymouth. BTLizard 10:15, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Delete Not notable in the way Wayne Rooney, Jermaine Pennant or David Beckham are. SunStar Net 11:40, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
  • So are you suggesting that all footballers who are not as well known as those three should be deleted? As there are 1000s of articles on players that are nowhere near as well know? Englishrose 19:06, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
• Delete, they don't play in a fully professional league. Hence WP:BIO excludes them. Daniel.Bryant 12:48, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Delete both - per nom. HornetMike 00:50, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
• Delete both - per nom. BlueValour 01:11, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
• Weak Delete for the simple reason that they've not been given a squad number yet, thus are still considered youth team players. However, if they are promoted to the first team then recreate the articles. Englishrose 19:06, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
• Delete both - per nom. Kingjamie 21:06, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

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The result was no consensus. --Ezeu 22:33, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Shawn Scallen

Questionable notability. ghits: [21]. NMChico24 08:19, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

• Weak delete. The photographer doesn't seem to meet WP:BIO, although the article does assert mild notability through newspaper articles. --Brad Beattie ^(talk) 09:31, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Keep Scallen is a well-known figure with a 20-year body of work in the alternative press. Auto movil 03:43, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Can you provide references, preferably something outside the local area which might indicate wider notability? Thank you! --NMChico24 07:16, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
    • Here's some Scallen stuff for Southern Records, a major indie label. Auto movil 15:59, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
• Keep Shawn is a well known person within not only the Ottawa punk/indie scene, but the whole North American punk and indie rock scene. Shawn is the leader of the independent music scene within Ottawa and can almost make or break your band..—Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.198.153.128 (talk • contribs) — Possible single purpose account: 69.198.153.128 (talk • contribs) has made few or no other contributions outside this topic.
  • That makes me not like him as much. Still notable, though. Auto movil 15:59, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
• Keep Notable underground scene photographer. --Marriedtofilm 06:58, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
• keep* The man has helped so many local and non-local bands tour/promote shows...etc etc. the list goes on. it shouldn't even be upfor discussion. look up "Scallen" in google, see what happens. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.29.191.94 (talk • contribs) — Possible single purpose account: 70.29.191.94 (talk • contribs) has made few or no other contributions outside this topic.
• Strong delete.None of that information is factual. *"Strong delete". Also, i don't want to be listed here. thanx. Shawn —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.58.58.48 (talk • contribs) — Possible single purpose account: 72.58.58.48 (talk • contribs) has made few or no other contributions outside this topic.

OK, Delete. Yup, that was Shawn Scallen, he also e-mailed me to ask me not to try to list him on here. (I penned the article.) Well, I wash my hands of it, someone can delete it. Dan Carkner 06:07, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

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The result was delete. --Coredesat 04:05, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] List of candies

Contested prod. Unmaintainable list with arbritary definitions (why only some mints and who decides what is gourmet) Nuttah68 10:10, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

• Delete. Just a list. Pointless and arbitrary. No descriptive content either. BTLizard 10:35, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Delete per nom. SuperDT 10:58, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Delete per nom. - UtherSRG (talk) 11:04, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Delete - WP:OR and pretty pointless, apparently. Cheers -- Imoeng 11:38, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Delete Unmaintainable, POV/OR list.--Húsönd 15:00, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Delete per nom. --Kf4bdy ^{talk contribs} 18:02, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Delete Just another list. Very arbitrary. Article only gives information on what will NOT be listed. Seems very USA-centric (and not just from use of word 'candies'). Any list that does not include every possible entry is useless. Things like "List of the United States" or "List of Nobel Peace Prize Winners" can be defined and complete. This cannot. Emeraude 18:03, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Delete, unmaintainably large if fully expanded, and a category would work just as well while being self-maintaining. If it were being used for some sort of candy Wikiproject as a list of articles to write then it should have been placed in the Wikipedia namespace, but I do not see any such claim in the article. --tjstrf Now on editor review! 20:35, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Cleanup, see Talk:list of candies. -- User:Docu
• Cleanup, it has potential, perhaps add catergories? Armanalp 20:28, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
• Cleanup, I agree with Armanalp. Drahcir^{my talk} 02:05, 3 November 2006 (UTC) 02:04, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

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The result was speedily deleted per WP:CSD#A7. -- Merope 15:54, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Syncopated Software Development Corporation

non-notable Firien § 10:23, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Note: not in alexa, near 0 ghits. See also Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/OddGods. --Firien § 10:29, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

• Speedy Delete - Same as below, actually related article. Speedy on non-notable company does not assert notability of subject. (A7) Chris Kreider 11:23, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Speedy delete - csd a7. So tagged. MER-C 11:55, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

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The result was speedily deleted per WP:CSD#A7. -- Merope 15:54, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] OddGods

See also Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Syncopated Software Development Corporation Firien § 10:27, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Note: not in alexa, near 0 relevant ghits. Firien § 10:30, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

• Speedy Delete - No notability, nothing of importance to wikipedia, at least in my opinion. Speedy on non-notable company and does not assert notability of the subject (A7) or maybye (A1) very short article with no context. Chris Kreider 11:22, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Speedy delete - csd a7. So tagged. MER-C 11:55, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

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The result was delete. Wikipedia is not a crystal ball. This has not been confirmed in the form of an official press release or announcement from Microsoft. Until then, the article can only be speculation, which does not belong here. --Coredesat 04:09, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Xbox 3

I put a ProD tag on this article, but it was removed by an anonymous user. This article is about something that will not be out for a long time, possibly 5 or more years, so at this moment, there is no information "set in stone," thus fails WP:NOT. All that is on this page is pure speculation and quotes that "hint" that it's under developement. I believe this article should be deleted now, and made later on, when some decent information comes out. SuperDT 10:49, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

• Delete. Wikipedia is not a crystal ball. - UtherSRG (talk) 11:03, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Don't Delete. I just put heaps of new stuff in, somewhat removing the crystal ball element. The 2012 olympics isn't coming for another 6 years but it's still got a page. Once a product has been confirmed (which this has) any and all specualation by first party high-level employees becomes part of the consoles history. I suggest that if you annoyed with annonymous users editing the page with things like "woo!" you put some low level protection on it. Anonymous user. 27 October 2006.

• Comment Next time, type Keep instead of Don't Delete; that sounds kinda odd :) Second, I encourage you to take a look at the 2012 Olympics page. That page has a lot of facts and current developements, such as the bidding, the financing, what sports will be in it, etc. The Xbox 3 page has naming speculation, a "hint" at developement, something of a "confirmation(if you'd even call it that)" that the hint is true, and something about voice recognition. An article this is not. All this will lead to is most likely vandalism, loads of speculation, and it will become a crystal ball, which as UtherSRG pointed out, Wikipedia is not a crystal ball.

SuperDT 11:39, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

• Delete - Agree with SuperDT, delete for now. The article can be re-created later, when more information is available. Cheers -- Imoeng 11:44, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Delete This article is crystal-ballism; and until there is documentary evidence it should be deleted. SunStar Net 11:45, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Delete per nom. The Xbox 360 just came out, so I find it highly unlikely that this will be anything but unverifiable speculation for a while. I suppose I should afd PlayStation 4 also. Natalie 15:43, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Merge This information is solid enough to go somewhere, though I'm not sure where would be best. Possibly in the Xbox 360 article, possibly elsewhere, even in the Microsoft article. FrozenPurpleCube 17:15, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Delete It's a good article given the almost total absence of anything on which to base it. Lets say I'd vote keep if they can post a picture of it! --Mike 18:57, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Delete — as the first said, wikipedia not not a crystal ball. JoeSmack ^Talk(p-review!) 19:30, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Delete for the same reason that PlayStation 4 article has been deleted at least twice: it's crystalballing and nothing but speculation. TJ Spyke 01:31, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
• Delete as mostly unsourced speculation. The XBox 360 is still pretty new; I doubt that there's serious development taking place on its successor already. Zetawoof^(ζ) 01:57, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
• Keep, I'd say that the combination of those sources is strong enough to warrant that the system is under development. While it's not rock hard evidence, it's enough to leave the article there, I'm pretty sure if I could be bothered to email Microsoft they'd tell me it was under development :), by the way, if it's deleted I bet Microsoft would confirm development like 1 week later xD. User:Ksterland, 1:24pm October 28, 2006 (AEST).
  • Of coarse it's under development, but this article would be nothing but speculation for about 2 or 3 years when MS announces it. TJ Spyke 03:34, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
• Delete per nom and UtherSRG. Michael Greiner 03:36, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

Don't Delete. It is confirmed through my sources that work at microsoft.

Comment Please sign your posts with four ~'s next time. Anyways, just because your "sources" have confirmed it, doesn't mean it deserves an article just yet. Like stated above, until Microsoft officially releases details, this article will be almost 100% speculation. Once when the time comes for this article to come into existence(in like 2-3 years or so), and Microsoft gives more details, we can always use your help making this article better; we'll need help sifting through rumors and such :) SuperDT 01:52, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

• Merge. The information does not qualify for its own page, but it is also not entirely false as it did not come from the source. But, considering that it won't come out for some, it may also warrant a deletion until it is officially announced. User:Lord Hawk 18:44, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
• Delete per nomination. As others have said: Wikipedia isn't a crystal ball. No merging is needed either. RobJ1981 00:23, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

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The result was keep. Daniel.Bryant ^{[ T · C ]} 06:19, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Alan Bern

Rescued from {{prod}}, reason given as "very little content, but arguably asserts notability". It needs a wider audience for deletion. UtherSRG (talk) 11:00, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

• Weak Keep - Mentions he is in some books on the subject althought not officialy referenced. If it references and comments are true, would appear to be notable although needs some NPOV clean up. Chris Kreider 11:20, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Keep - Google returned many results about this person. Can be improved and provided with sources. Cheers -- Imoeng 11:48, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Keep - Needs improvement but I think it is notable enough. --Kf4bdy ^{talk contribs} 18:03, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Keep - Seems to be notable. Please try to rewrite a little.Dr.khan 16:35, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

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The result was delete. Can't sleep, clown will eat me 06:53, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Kalang Road

Street in suburban Melbourne. No claims to notability. QazPlm 11:10, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

• Delete - Non-notable whatsoever. Just an ordinary street. Cheers -- Imoeng 11:51, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Delete per above. MER-C 11:52, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Delete. The article does not show that this road in Camberwell, Victoria is anything other than an average suburban street. I have not been able to come up with any sources indicating notability. According to Google News Archive, nothing of interest has happened in the street. [22]
• Note: This debate has been included in the list of Australia-related deletions. -- Capitalistroadster 01:56, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
• Delete -- non-notable street. - Longhair\^talk 03:35, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
• Delete nn street, not even an assertion of notability, really. Lankiveil 05:11, 29 October 2006 (UTC).
• Delete. Non-notable street. Cnwb 05:58, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
• Delete as nn street. Sarah Ewart (Talk) 06:15, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
• Compare I notice there is a request for deletion on this page - but this is where a Grand Slam champion tennis player tuned up for an eventually succesful tilt at a Major title! It is not simply a tree-lined street. I could also add that it was the home of the Red Cross Headquarters for Eastern Melbourne during the War years, 1940-1945, and also, for Vietnam during the late 1960s and into the 1970s. Can someone explain how that is any less important than a street that has had its street-sign stolen a couple of times? Nirvana Avenue? I would argue that headquartering the Red Cross and hosting a 7 Time Grand Slam winner are greater claims to fame than a street thats simply had its sign stolen.jkm 09:05, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

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The result was delete as unverifiable. --Coredesat 04:11, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Mmbot

No independant, reliable, non-trivial evidence of notability, or even of its claims about the software. Googling the name, filtering out hits from Wikipedia and its mirrors, and the official site and forums gets 622 hits, 150 unique. Drat (Talk) 11:24, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

• Delete - There are many many bots out there for many different game. I do not think it is notable enough. If somebody wanted the bot or information they could just google the bot and find its site. Chris Kreider 11:30, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Delete - fails WP:SOFTWARE, no reliable sources found. MER-C 11:52, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Don't Delete - rather, put it a subsection of World of Warcraft. JAF1970 17:15, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment. That still doesn't address the problem of verifiability.--Drat (Talk) 19:03, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

• Delete per nom. Anomo 10:05, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

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The result was delete. --Coredesat 04:12, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Dutch irregular verbs

Nothing more than a list of words. Wikipedia is neither a dictionary nor an indiscriminate collection of information. Suggesting a transwiki to Wiktionary. MER-C 11:31, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

• Delete - Per nom. Chris Kreider 11:38, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Move to Wiktionary per MER-C. Cheers -- Imoeng 11:53, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Weak Transwiki to Wiktionary. This information could be useful there.--Húsönd 15:05, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Please read the article being discussed. It links to one of the places where Wiktionary already has this class of words covered (Wiktionary making the correct distinction between a strong verb and an irregular verb, moreover.), the other being wikt:Category:Dutch irregular verbs. Uncle G 16:02, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

I didn't notice that link at the bottom. Changed to delete.--Húsönd 01:28, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

• Delete Does it contain EVERY irregular verb. If not, it's a useless list. It doesn't claim to have every one ("List of commonly used") so therefore non-exhaustive and not needed. Emeraude 18:07, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Delete per Uncle G; many of these are regular verbs. Angus McLellan (Talk) 09:44, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

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The result was keep. Luna Santin 09:07, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Purple Aki

• Keep Please keep. 31 October 2006 (UTC) All of the content is available from reputable online news sources: eg. British Broadcasting Corporation, the London Guardian etc.

Please sse this news link http://news.google.co.uk/news?hl=en&safe=off&sa=N&resnum=0&q=%22purple%20aki&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&tab=wn

• Weak Keep - Has some references, seems like it got some press coverage, I think it is on the line but I prefer to err on the side of caution. Chris Kreider 11:40, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Weak Keep, however in order for this article to be kept it would need a substantial rewrite. That said, I hadn't heard of him until this AFD. SunStar Net 11:41, 27 October 2006 (UTC) - (my vote changed)
• Keep - [23] seems to verify that this is notable. SunStar Net 11:43, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Keep - This subject matter has got media attention (see the references). Although needs rewriting. Cheers -- Imoeng 12:02, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

• Comment - Media attention doesn't always make something notable; unless you want Wikipedia full of articles called "Cat Stuck Up Tree" :-) Marwood 12:12, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

• Comment - "Cat Stuck Up Tree" - that's a little unfair. This guy likes to measure muscle in some sexually perverted way. He has been infamous in the NW of England for some years. a *REAL* Urban Legend, not an Urban Myth.

• Weak Keep. This man has made the national news, and is now known far outside Widnes. Now he belongs to the world. I've gone through the article and made it as good as it is ever likely to be; the local trivia was fascinating but the only sources I could find were forum posts, blog entries etc, which are insubstantial. -Ashley Pomeroy 12:21, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Keep - The article needs rewriting with a number of additions, placed into it. There freely available pictures of Akinwale Arobieke on the internet, as well as numerous news reports. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/merseyside/6087922.stm from 27/10/06 refers to his release and conditions. He is also a wide spread 'Urban Legend' from the North West of england and until his arrest following the harrassment of over 123 persons, and his sentence of 31 indefinate restraining orders. He has been in Prison for the last 3 years I believe

• Keep - notable urban myth that turned out not to be a myth Andrew Oakley 16:27, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Keep per above. Edward Wakelin 18:43, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Keep. The evidence of notability is quite overwhelming. --EddieBernard 19:08, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Weak Keep - It seems that perhaps calling it a stub would be appropriate as there is little actual info from the case, for example, as to what this person actually did. 3countylaugh 20:38, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Keep - very notable as an urban myth who is known to people across a large part of the UK. Also notable as a real individual for his crimes.--Suttonpubcrawl 01:03, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
• Keep - The subject of the article has been the inspiration for at least two songs by noted bands (The Ballad Of Purple Acky by Hungy Ghosts and Ode To Purle Ackey by Zen Baseball Bat), and has as such entered the popular consciousness to some degree. Also, there is an (admittedly unconfirmed) case to be made that Clive Barker's 'Candyman' draws heavily on the mythos surounding Aki before his arrest and subsequent confirmation of his existence.
• Keep - if you live in Liverpool, St. Helens, Warrington or Widnes you will have heard of him. Try telling all of his victims he isn't notable. SenorKristobbal 09:08, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

• Comment - I do. And I would still maintain that he isn't notable. The article was also full of dubious information with nothing to back it up (e.g. "he chased a kid on to the railway lines in New Brighton and electrocuted him but was found not guilty of manslaughter"). Happily, the article has been cleaned up substantially since the AfD, but what verifiable information there is, is contained in scant few online news stories and is barely enough to make more than a stub. There are hundreds of crimes (and sex crimes) committed every day and Wikipedia doesn't carry articles on them. Equally there are dozens of Urban Legends like the story of "Purple Aki" and Wikipedia doesn't carry articles on all of those. This story is nothing special - perhaps the most notable thing about it is that he was never convicted of anything more than harrassment and intimidation; despite the legend that built up around his activites. Purple Aki is not the Yorkshire Ripper. He is not Fred West. He is barely a footnote. All IMHO. Marwood 09:31, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

• Comment Put Purple Aki into google...end of SenorKristobbal 10:52, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
• Comment "Barely enough to make more than a stub."? Are you proposing the deletion of all stub articles then? Also, you note that there are many other urban legends like that of Purple Aki, but how many of these other urban legends have been proven as being based on a real figure? It's very interesting as an example of an urban legend which many believed to be purely false until the man himself was captured.--83.216.157.38 11:19, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

• Comment - Fair comment. I wouldn't propose the deletion of all stubs, no. However the "stub" exists as a placeholder for a topic that needs expansion. I would contend that there isn't enough verifiable material to write a full article on Purple Aki - it is all rumour and hearsay. It looks like consensus is "keep" though, so I hope someone will find the time to create a good factual article on the subject. IMO, however, it can't be done. Marwood 11:37, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

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The result was delete. --Ezeu 22:28, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] City Psychos

A hooligan firm that does not assert its importance, and it also fails WP:CORP. – Elisson • T • C • 11:50, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

• Note that City Psychos: From the Monte Carlo Mob to the Silver Cod Squad should be deleted as well if that is the outcome of this discussion. – Elisson • T • C • 23:22, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• it's a stub. You want to add to it, be my guest. If you don't want a link to it on your hooligan firm page, fine. There is nothing offensive, nor is there anything inappropriate in the City Psychos article, which is to say it doesn't violate any content standards. Wikipedia isn't just for you, you know. Ryecatcher773
  • I did not remove any link to it from any page. And sorry, but your other arguments do not make a difference. An article on myself would not contain anything offensive or appropriate either, and would not violate any "content standards", but I am not notable enough for inclusion on Wikipedia, and neither are the City Psychos. – Elisson • T • C • 22:39, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• This discussion has been included in WikiProject Football's list of football (soccer) related deletions. – Elisson • T • C • 11:54, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Delete - So is that a firm or a gang of hooligans? If a firm, fails WP:CORP. Possibly CSD A1 and A7 as well. Cheers -- Imoeng 12:06, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Read hooligan firm to understand what it is. It is a gang of hooligans, but they are what is commonly called a "firm". – Elisson • T • C • 12:15, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Delete per nom. MER-C 12:31, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Delete per what Wikipedia is not (or in this case, "what Wikipedia doesn't want". Daniel.Bryant 12:48, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Delete - no claim to notability given, apart from being mentioned in a hooligan memoir, which are about ten-a-penny in British bookshops. Qwghlm 15:47, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Do Not Delete The article is not about the gang specifically, but the book City Psychos, and as well (now anyway), a short list of other entries included in a genre. There are hundreds (if not thousands) of book stubs and/or articles on Wikipedia, and this article is included in that. And as for the relative worth of any book, that is all in the eyes of the reader. If you delete this article on the grounds that the book is not appealing to your particular taste, then Wikipedia should ban book entries on a whole being that there is virtually no book that appeals to all. Ryecatcher773
  • As the firm itself is not considered worthy of inclusion in Wikipedia, considering the current four delete votes and my nomination, then why should a book on that firm be considered notable? – Elisson • T • C • 23:23, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Delete per nom. HornetMike 00:50, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
• strong delete the book itself may be worthy of inclusion but a group of pathetic subhumans is not! Superlinus 12:15, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Interesting. However, based on the logic of your argument, it would seem that any article on any hooligan firm -- and moreover the article Hooligan firm -- should be deleted. Ryecatcher773 02:06, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete as it fails to assert notability and despite being several months old has a complete lack of citations. --ElKevbo 23:08, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
• Comment: I don't think this discussion should be around the notability of the "City Pshycos" firm itself - as Ryecatcher773 says, the article is about a piece of literature which he/she considers notable. The question is: is this book of note? I notice that the City Psychos: From the Monte Carlo Mob to the Silver Cod Squad page contains the same content.

I propose that this page be edited to redirect to City Psychos: From the Monte Carlo Mob to the Silver Cod Squad page. Furthermore, the City Psychos: From the Monte Carlo Mob to the Silver Cod Squad page should, in turn, include a brief statement as to why it is a notable piece of literature. -- MLD · T · C · @:  15:00, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

• Strong delete non-notable at all. --Angelo 00:59, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

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The result was delete as dicdef. No strong arguments to keep --Ezeu 22:21, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Active couple

This article is a dictionary definition, and can hardly be expanded. Any page that needs the dance term "Active Couple" can specify what it means in one sentence. Yellowdesk 05:59, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

• This AfD nomination was incomplete. It is listed now. DumbBOT 11:56, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

• Weak Keep - Hmmm, that is not what I expected "Active Couple" to mean. That does not appear to be dictionary content. It needs some cleanup and some sources but it does appear to be encylopedic content. Chris Kreider 12:15, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Delete. I agree with the first comment. It is too trivial and can be completely covered in any article where it is needed.--JBH23 12:48, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Weak Keep — If someone is looking for the definition of the word, and types it in to wikipedia, they won't find anything if, as the nom suggests, we put a sentence in articles referring to it (apart from the search - hardly reliable). The reason for the weak bit in my opinion is that it deperately needs sources and a cleanup (and perhaps expansion). Martinp23 16:01, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
  • It is not a word. It is two words. Wikipedia is not a dictionary where one looks up the definitions of words. That's Wiktionary's job. Wikipedia is about subjects, the people/places/events/concepts/things that the words denote. One would come to Wikipedia to find out what the concept of an active couple in dancing was.

    The question of whether there should be an individual article is determined by whether there exists source material yielding scope for expansion beyond a perpetual "The active couple is the couple that is active at any time." stub. Saying that it "needs sources and expansion" is not good enough to counter the argument that it is an unexpandable perpetual stub. One has to actually demonstrate that there are sources and that scope for expansion from stub status exists. Uncle G 16:29, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

• Change name? I had a look at what links here and discovered it occurred in Scottish_country_dance as >>"top couple" (or active couple)<< - I've never heard of active couple (I thought it was electronics) but I'm very familiar with top couple and I think it is a very useful term to put in. Now if someone could tell me what the top couple is in an eightsome real and how that relates to other forms of dances it will be interesting and warrant an entry. I've only ever heard of it as "top couple" so I suggest changing it to that. --Mike 18:45, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
• Delete It appears to me that this is a dictionary definition, fine for Wiktionary but not for Wikipedia. Can be found in articles on dances. Unless there's more to the concept then is hinted at here, I say delete. --The Way 00:27, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

• Delete (I'm the deletion proposer)-- Addendum: three links exist to the proposed deletion article. Contra dance defines the term, Reel (dance) does not, but should, Scottish country dance barely does. English_country_dance should mention and define the term, but does neither. Yellowdesk 05:24, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

• Weak keep, on the grounds that there are many dictionary-definitions in WP, and that it's harder to link to a Wictionary article than a Wikipedia article. Argyriou (talk) 16:49, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

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The result was delete. Luna Santin 09:06, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Banghawk

Delete- Doesn't cite sources. Should really be part of the mohawk article. And I've never ever heard of this term before. It's usually called a chelsea mohawk from what I've heard. Lyo 23:57, 26 October 2006 (UTC)