Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Log/2006 October 16

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The result was delete. --Mr. Lefty (talk) 21:56, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] List of Lost awards

This is already covered in prose format at Lost (TV series). There's no need for a lengthy list. Jtrost (T | C | #)

  • Delete. We don't need this information twice. Robert A.West (Talk) 00:46, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete This article should be lost. TJ Spyke 00:58, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete We need to save the space, think of the bandwidth. TehKewl1 01:22, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete No need to duplicate the information. Hello32020 02:08, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete redundant content. --Slgr@ndson (page - messages - contribs) 02:47, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete Not needed, besides no refs and can such a list ever be complete? Not likely. Signaturebrendel 07:55, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Merge and delete Szczur Zosia 09:13, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete per nom. Khukri (talk . contribs) 12:48, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete' per nom. Unneccessary. 23skidoo 14:58, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Merge and Delete per nom, needs to be merged though. Valoem talk 17:27, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete per all above. Little if any encyclopedic value.UberCryxic 18:38, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete, no reason for a separate article here.--Isotope23 20:14, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete, per all of the above. Meg298 20:25, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete' per nom. PKtm 22:04, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Strong Delete, per everything said above and more--Seadog.M.S 22:42, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
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The result was delete. Several votes said "Keep if references are added." Though external links were added, none of the originally questionable info was referenced; in fact, most of it has been removed. Thus, I add those borderline votes to the 60% or so who are voting straight delete. Chick Bowen 17:23, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Brent Murray

This seems to be simply a Vanity Page. There are no references, the subject is not notable, and the text is merely copied verbatim from one of the external links provided (by the subject himself!). Pinkville 00:15, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

  • Delete. While I think this subject will one day be notable, I agree with Pinkville that he is not now. SteveHopson 00:47, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep assuming the list of clients is correct, seems notable enough. Needs sourcing though. Andrew Lenahan - Starblind 00:50, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete as spam -- no reliable source. This would be a copyvio, except that the user posted his own website material. Robert A.West (Talk) 00:50, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep if references added before end of AfD, agree with Starblind. JYolkowski // talk 01:21, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment I'm concerned about the copyvio on this page, since many of the sentences are outright copied from his website. FrozenPurpleCube 01:36, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
Make that ALL of the page. Sorry, but I think that means delete It would be one thing to rewrite it, but I'd still prefer to start from a blank on it. Not that I agree he is notable enough, though he may be better than some in the American photographers category. FrozenPurpleCube 01:37, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
Comment: Unusually, his website does not seem to claim copyright, and there's good reason to think that the content has been reproduced in WP by its creator. The combination of these two stops me from summarily deleting it as a copyvio. -- Hoary 02:00, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete if he ever becomes notable someone else can write the bio. And from scratch. ...added at 01:48, 16 October 2006 by Therin83
  • Delete because the content is not independently verifiable. -- Hoary 02:01, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep. Additional references have been added that appear to demonstrate notability. --TruthbringerToronto (Talk | contribs) 03:51, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
    • The NYT links need registration. (No, this doesn't automatically disqualify them, but it is irritating or worse.) The next link I tried was the BBC one. It doesn't mention either "brent" or "murray", or perhaps the search function in my browser is broken. At that point I gave up looking, at least for the time being. -- Hoary 04:07, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Weak Keep and rewrite. NPOV is a MAJOR problem. This article is 100% autobiograhpical, but he's somewhat notable. IMDB has an entry, though its paltry. However, a google search turns up MANY pages that do not include self-created pages. He does seem to be the guy he claims. Still, by the standard that "if no one who doesn't know you is inspired to write about you, you are probably not notable" then, well, maybe he's not notable. His body of work is impressive, and the article can be brought up to standard if someone were so inspired. --Jayron32 03:53, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
    • First, IMDb is not really authoritative, information can be submitted by anyone who registers (i.e. possibly Murrary himself) and IMDb doesn't maintain the standards and quality checks that Wikipedia does. The Google search is pretty underwhelming; only two sites apart from his own turn up: lightstalkers.org, which seems to be nothing more than a CV hosting service, and modelmayhem.com, which is the same thing. Both these sites merely host information supplied by the photographer himself. Conducting my own search I found a hit for a site from which his member name has been deleted and one credited photo from a brief NY Times article, plus one or two others. There's also this hit (with a link to an article that requires registration): "Ms. McNally joined The Times in 2004 as director of photography. ... And special thanks to Brent Murray of our Web site who painstakingly inserted visuals ..." that makes Murray sound like a fairly low-level employee, though more might have been revealed if I had registered. I suppose. Pinkville 13:23, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep. In its most current iteration, the article appears to be unbiased, and the NYT articles references are indeed legit. There are sufficient Google hits for me to believe his claim, and it appears that the POV issue has been resolved. Consequentially 04:26, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep - Commercial photographer with multiple publications. Article has been much tidied from vanity first edition. Watch, however, for recurring POV/vanity issues. Robertissimo 05:16, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Switch me to a weak delete on this one; should have reviewed WP:BIO on photographers before opining, and while his work is published, he seems not to meet the notability threshold... Robertissimo 12:06, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Questions: I'm still puzzled. There are two lists of links. The first has two links: one to Murray's own site and the other to what appears to be a page supplied by him to some networking (?) site. The second mostly has links to pages in the NYT that are said to show photos by him; of the two that aren't NYT, one shows nothing by him and the other shows a competent but completely humdrum publicity mugshot. Talk of "multiple publications" suggests to me a list of books, or at least major magazine features. Are there any? Any news stories about him? Any exhibitions by him? -- Hoary 06:52, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
Reply -- Sorry, I should have been clearer -- he has multiple commercial publications of individual photographs, most of which do seem to be related in one way or another to the NYTimes. All links in "Photographs reproduced" do include a shot by him (Margo Jefferson on the Random House site and Ben Brantley (credited in the alt text) on the BBC's, and breaking the list out in that way was my attempt to clarify that the links were not, strictly speaking, as had previously been indicated, "References." I'm not saying he's Richard Avedon, but he does appear to be a working photographer of some established professional notability. That the page started with very definite vanity and autobiography issues seems to have been overcome, although it still needs stronger sourcing and, as noted above, will bear watching. Robertissimo 07:16, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
Well done. I appreciate your work on this and your position. But meanwhile, this does say that photographers should have been published and have received multiple independent reviews of or awards for their work. True, this is a mere guideline, but I thought guidelines are, if not observed, then bent or broken only for good reason. On the evidence adduced so far, BM seems an unremarkable photographer. If his work (for the NYT or elsewhere) had won comment in some newspaper, that would be a different matter. -- Hoary 07:51, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
By the new Brent Murray standard of notability, I should have my own Wikipedia article. I'm also no Richard Avedon, but I'm a hardworking employee in a museum/research institute with several hundred thousand words of my own writing for this institution published on the Internet in the form of online collections documentation.... ;~) Pinkville 13:33, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
The problem with Robertissimo's standard is that we have not consistently applied this to other AfD discussions. Brent Murray's self article still fails the WP:Bio guideline that has been consistently applied to other AfD discussions that I've monitored. Yes Murray can show that his photographs have been published, but, as Hoary points out, these do not consitute 'multiple independent reviews or awards.' The article still does not contain verifiable references that were not self-generated. Many, many photographers have had work published by the NY Times -- will this be a new standard? As I've said before, I think Murray will someday be notable, but, unless we want to lower the standards for everyone else that we've deleted, he is not notable today. SteveHopson 14:54, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete - WP:OR WP:CITE WP:NOTABILITY /Blaxthos 07:33, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep per Robertissimo. Cynical 07:34, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete as vanity and non-notable and because of the lack of third-party sourrces. Ultra-Loser Talk / Contributions 14:35, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete - fails the WP:Bio guideline completely. A couple of photos published by the NYT doesn't qualify as 'notable'. Also, I could find no verification of the rewards cited on this person's personal website. Alcarillo 19:52, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete per nom. Madchen Hoch 22:01, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Weak keep, if the article will start adding sources then it should be kept if not then delete . . . added at 22:43, 16 October 2006 by User:Seadog.M.S
    • You are free to add sources at any time during this AfD process. -- Hoary 01:16, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete. he's a nobody, should never have written an article about himself. How many thousands of articles on photographers are there going to be if this is the criteria for an entry? Sam Hayes 23:04, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep + Rewrite. Somewhat Notable. Seeing some of his work + a rewrite should be all it takes. .... added at 23:09, 16 October 2006 by User:Iced Kola
    • You are free to rewrite at any time during this AfD process. -- Hoary 01:16, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete. He's a commercial photographer. He sells pictures to magazines, just like thousands of other American commercial photographers, to feed the voracious appetite of hundreds of photo editors and art directors, no more notable or outstanding than all those other commercial photographers. This article has no outside references, no awards, no coffee-table books, no gallery or museum shows -- just links to samples of his work: in other words, it's a Wiki-CV/portfolio, not an biographical article. --Calton | Talk 05:24, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete No assertion of WP:BIO notability, given that it is now clear that some things previously taken as material about him was instead uses of his work. GRBerry 17:58, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep, as per Andrew Lenahan - Starblind, above. Smeelgova 04:44, 18 October 2006 (UTC).
  • Weak delete. Neutral. I would say keep as long as someone (not me) wants to rewrite it NPOV, with content. He seems notable enough to me, as per Andrew Lenahan, but the article was created as vanity or at least autobiography, and needs much work. If no one's willing to do the work, then that speaks for itself. If he had to create his own article, and even with that push no one wants to expand it, he probably isn't notable enough to be included at this time. Reasoning from WP:BIO. AubreyEllenShomo 18:40, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Also, I meant to say, reasoning from WP:AUTO. WP:AUTO is clear about this, and the proof is in the unwillingness (or inability) of others to expand and make a workable article. If this goes another day without some substantial further improvements, I'll probably switch my vote to a weak delete. AubreyEllenShomo 18:44, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
  • No new adds, so I'm changing my recommendation to a weak delete, as I said I would. I don't thik the evidence of notability is clear enough. AubreyEllenShomo 00:57, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete for the autobio and notable reasons discussed above. - Corporal Tunnel 01:12, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete - not yet notable and the curious links don't help. BlueValour 01:30, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
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The result was delete. --Mr. Lefty (talk) 21:57, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Gelphie

I tried to PROD this, but it was removed without comment by an anon with no other edits. Where do I even begin? Essentially Original Research, right down to a "conclusion" section at the end. Fan speculation. No reliable sources. Dumps loads of text from the book Wicked, pushing the limits of fair use rather far. 151 unique Google hits. I don't like to use the word "cruft" often, friends, but this is fan-fiction-cruft at its worst. Andrew Lenahan - Starblind 00:17, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

  • Delete as nominator. Andrew Lenahan - Starblind 00:17, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete The first sentence: Gelphie is the term coined by fanfiction authors and fanart artists in the Wicked fandom. Nuff said. Danny Lilithborne 00:24, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete patently original research. Robert A.West (Talk) 00:54, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete per nom. TJ Spyke 00:59, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete as original research. Hello32020 02:07, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete unless some reliable sources can be found, it's just a bulk of original research.--KojiDude (Contributions) 02:33, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete neologism, original research, unverifiable. Resolute 03:03, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete per nom Khukri (talk . contribs) 11:12, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete, nonnotable fanfic term. NawlinWiki 14:14, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete per nom. Madchen Hoch 22:02, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
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The result was merge and delete. --Mr. Lefty (talk) 21:59, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] List of street names of drugs

Previous AfD here. This is a generally hopeless article in terms of WP:OR and WP:V, and a constant vandalism target to boot. The relevant content should be merged to their respective drug articles, and the list should be deleted. If you're going to vote for Keep, do us a favor and explain how you plan to handle the WP:OR issues. Thanks. My vote is a strong Merge to relevant articles and Delete. Danny Lilithborne 00:22, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

  • Delete. The best of this information is already in the respective articles. The minor names belong in Urban Dictionary. Robert A.West (Talk) 00:43, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete per Wikipedia is not a dictionary. This information belongs in specific articles, not as an article of its own. Daveydweeb (chat/patch) 02:30, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Merge the names into the related drug articles.--KojiDude (Contributions) 02:35, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Merge & Delete per nom. It's a fun article/list to read through and I like the concept, but with no sources it lacks the quality that is needed for this setting. —MJCdetroit 02:56, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Merge and delete per above. MER-C 03:03, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Merge + Delete The street names of drugs may, with due referencing, be mentioned in the articles discussing those drugs. This list, however, seems to compromise the professional integrity of WP somewhat. Signaturebrendel 07:57, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep While I concur with the sentiment that this list may be a target for vandalism and/or difficult to source, those factors should not doom it. This list has a heck of a lot more value than 90% of the lists on wikipedia (e.g. Pokemon) because drugs are a legitimate public policy concern and the names of these drugs are thus notable. Many articles discussing celebrities are also vandalism targets, and while I think Wikipedians can ask too much of sourcing, it should not defeat an article like this where everything might be sourced with enough effort. Allon Fambrizzi 08:31, 16 October 2006 (UTC)Allon Fambrizzi
    • Comment Are you going to put forth the effort? Because nobody else seems to be doing so and I'm getting tired of reverting "Colombian Alpine ski trip" or whatnot. Danny Lilithborne 08:41, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • merge or keep – interesting article.... Szczur Zosia 09:10, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • delete - innacurate / subjective / unverifiable / original research / etc etc etc . Side note: pointing to other articles that also violate policy to justify this one doesn't "make a right." ;^) /Blaxthos 11:59, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete per nom. --KFP (talk | contribs) 14:16, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Merge per Kojidude, these are best covered in individual drug articles. Andrew Levine 15:34, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • CommentWhat is the comparative utility of having a "List" article versus a "Category:Street drugs?" Many sorts of info on Wikipedia lose utiliity if the information only exists in unconnected individual articles. Categories seem more efficient. The problem of drug abuse makes the overall topic notable, but the question is how to allow efficient search for info about the drugs.Edison 19:00, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete Violates WP:OR SirFozzie 20:08, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • keep it it's important to educate people about this stuff. Billybob1591 22:50, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete per WP:NOT an indiscriminate collection of information. Do not merge anything anywhere; this list is full of inaccuracies and unsourced material that would only cause greater problems if spread out over a large number of articles. ergot 15:19, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Merge and delete I gave up on this one awhile ago; a constant influx of crap. OhNoitsJamie Talk 05:54, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep; it's a valuable reference for those involved or interested in substance abuse and recovery. Note that due to the nature of street drugs, it's difficult to impossible to verify terms which are created to avoid detection from authorities. - GilliamJF 19:10, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
    • Comment I don't understand your rationale. How does knowing that meth is sometimes called "Johnny Fat Sacks" help someone interested in substance abuse? And your second sentence is actually a reason to delete, not to keep. Danny Lilithborne 19:25, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete per Wikipedia is not a dictionary. --ajvol 12:36, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
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The result was keep. Can't sleep, clown will eat me 22:06, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Antonia Bennett

Fails WP:Music. No charted hits, no albums, no major awards. Press coverage is either minor (a one-line cabaret review) or incidental (mentioned in an article on her father). She may make it someday, but hasn't yet. I will see what I can merge into her father's article. Robert A.West (Talk) 00:31, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

  • Keep Firstly allow me to state that this subject meets WP:MUSIC. She has gone on a national concert tour in the U.S.A. The evidence is in this webpage. However, I am not sure if the David Award for entertainment is a major award, but if it is, then she deserves an article of her own. On top of this, she was also a guest at the White House with President Bush, Tony Bennett, Robert Redford, and Tina Turner. If one is a guest at the White House, does that automatically make the subject notable? The article also has a few references and this makes it an even stronger candidate for its inclusion. Finally, the potential of this article to be expanded is strong as well. --Siva1979Talk to me 01:43, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep Plenty of Google results confirm notability, such as this or this.--Húsönd 01:53, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete and redirect to Tony Bennett. She's achieved nothing more than many other aspiring jazz singers with great talent but much less notability. GassyGuy 03:13, 16 October 2006 (UTC) Changing to neutral in light of sources below. GassyGuy 05:52, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep actually, the cited articles are terrible sources, since they are all self refernced (they are either created by Ms. Bennet or in support of her own commercial ventures". Still, this review in a major newspaper and this other review and this one too show that she does rate on independant press. She shows up outside of self-promotion, then she is probably notable. Incedenatlly, many more articles like this can be found on a google search. --Jayron32 04:01, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete. The "sources" provided are either press releases or trivial mentions. The Las Vegas Tribune article [1] is primarily about her father, with a paragraph stating that Ms. Bennett is also performing in his show. The "jazzimprov.com" reference [2] is about an entirely different performer, Ada Rovatti, with mentions that she has performed with Bennett. The Cape Cod Online article was again primarily about Tony Bennett, with a minor paragraph at the end about how his daughter came on stage during the performance to sing two songs. [3]. She has never recorded anything, and a Google search on "Antonia Bennett" only brings up about 1,200 hits [4]. There just isn't enough verification of notability to warrant a separate article at this time. If she ever records a CD that has relatively decent sales, this article can be re-created, but for now, I say either delete it, or merge it into her father's article. --Elonka 10:28, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment. Though this is the first formal AfD, be aware that this article was previously deleted by someone from the Wikipedia main office, as a vanity page. So this one that we're debating right now is a re-post. [5]. --Elonka 10:28, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete per nom. Madchen Hoch 22:03, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep, verifabily meets WP:MUSIC. --badlydrawnjeff talk 18:37, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep I 100% agree with the person who wrote "according to Frank Sinatra her father is the greatest singing legend of all time, she has been singing for over 20 years, she is all over Google. I saw her perform on the Today show and The Regis & Kelly Show. If you look on google you will see she sings all over the country. Amazon sells the CD she did with Tom Wopat and another website states her new CD is coming out soon. Plus, she is very young to have accomplished all this! I believe the Today show, The Regis & Kelly Show, The White House, New York Times, Tony Bennett, Tom Wopat, etc. are all not crazy for supporting her
  • DELETE*: she's piggybacking on her father's fame. he just had a CD out, and didnt include her , not in a single song!!!, that should tell us why she hasnt made it in the bussiness. she has no talent , imagine even thought she is been signing with her father since she's 4, that means she has been at this for over 30 years and hasnt made it . she only comes up in google searches when she is in some sort of function in which her father is either a guest or a host. no credit of her own. i strongly recommend deletion of this entry. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Witchcat74 (talk • contribs) 23:47, October 17, 2006
  • Comment I don't think achieving notability through "piggybacking" is a WP:BIO or WP:MUSIC offense. That she has talent or not is POV and has nothing to do with qualifying for an article (I say dump Ashlee Simpson by those standards!) --Marriedtofilm 22:39, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep I was going to say merge, but per Húsönd and seeing references, my mind was changed. --Marriedtofilm 22:39, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep I don't see why this article would be deleted - and it certainly makes no sense to merge it with the article of another person! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.196.0.50 (talk • contribs) 18:28, October 20, 2006
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The result was delete. --Mr. Lefty (talk) 22:03, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Hollow godric

No verifiable claims of notability per WP:MUSIC. cholmes75 (chit chat) 00:37, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

  • Delete. Barely asserts notability. Robert A.West (Talk) 00:41, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Neutral Google seems to put this on the borderline of notability. If kept, move to Hollow Godric.--Húsönd 01:44, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete Doesn't assert notability at the moment. Hello32020 02:07, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete Reads like an ad. If it's kept, it needs to be re-written to have more of a neutral point of view.--KojiDude (Contributions) 02:38, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete album not listed on CDDB, seems to suggest non-notability Cynical 07:20, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete, notability not sufficiently asserted. NawlinWiki 14:15, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete, does not seem notable and has only 1170 ghits. --KFP (talk | contribs) 14:26, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
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The result was Speedily deleted as a repost of a non-notable company/location. (aeropagitica) 04:38, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Bianca's Deli & Catering

A mom-and-pop deli in Moraga, CA. Might be notable locally but not in the context that Wikipedia articles require. Speedily deleted once before and recreated by author, who asserts the notability of the store in the talk page. Danny Lilithborne 00:39, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

  • Delete. This could have been a CSD again, as the assertion of notability has to be more than "its significant". There is no reasoning behind it, but we should do this right or we will see this yet again. Robert A.West (Talk) 00:59, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Speedy Delete as ad spam Bwithh 01:10, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Speedy Delete: take your pick of spam, recreated material, or non-notable company. Vectro 01:37, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Speedy Delete A7.--Húsönd 01:42, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Speedy Delete as spam. Hello32020 02:06, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Speedy delete as a non-notable company. *drew 02:27, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Speedy delete. So tagged. MER-C 02:29, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Speedy delete and salt the earth. Resolute 03:05, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
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The result was delete. --Mr. Lefty (talk) 22:05, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Don Chilton

Political hopeful who satisfies neither WP:BIO nor WP:C&E. Vectro 01:11, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

  • Delete Currently NN. Traces of propaganda.--Húsönd 01:38, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete Right now, it doesn't satisfy notability guidelines. Hello32020 02:06, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete Has never held political office in the past, nor done anything else notable, according to his own website. If he has not done anything to date notable, then he does not belong here. --Jayron32 04:10, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete per nom. TJ Spyke 05:17, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete Not notable. Perhpas once he gets elected (if) and does something important. Signaturebrendel 07:59, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete per nom. Madchen Hoch 22:04, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep all articles about major-party candidates for Congress or other offices of that significance. JamesMLane t c 09:39, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep per JamesMLane. C&E is neither policy nor guideline. It is a proposal. It is a misguided proposal. He is notable as a major party candidate — not a garage band — so we not focus on self-promotion questions here. Any potential POV issues are vanilla, and should be dealt with as usual, through editing. We can spare the 1K this takes. Fishboy 10:47, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Important Fact Question As of this writing, the article (originally created on Oct 8, 2006) says Chilton "is the current Democratic nominee for Arizona's 4th congressional district seat". But according to here, it appears he lost the primary for Arizona's 3rd congressional district on September 12, 2006. What am I missing? -- 17:46, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
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The result was delete. --Mr. Lefty (talk) 22:07, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Don Karg

Political hopeful who satisfies neither WP:BIO nor WP:C&E. Vectro 01:10, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

  • Delete Currently NN.--Húsönd 01:37, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete Right now, it doesn't satisfy notability guidelines. Hello32020 02:05, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete This and all of the other articles around here on AfD are all written by the same author. He probably is an arizona resident who is creating these articles in good faith but is unaware of wikipedia's notablity guidelines. Incidentally, this guy has never one political office before, he has twice been a failed candidate. Definately not notable. --Jayron32 04:15, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete NN politician. TJ Spyke 05:17, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete per nom. Madchen Hoch 22:04, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep all articles about major-party candidates for Congress or other offices of that significance. JamesMLane t c 09:40, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep per JamesMLane. C&E is neither policy nor guideline. It is a proposal. It is a misguided proposal. He is notable as a major party candidate — not a garage band — so we don't need to worry about self-promotion here and we can spare the 1K this takes. Fishboy 10:45, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
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The result was delete. --Mr. Lefty (talk) 22:08, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Bill Durston

Delete, another non-notable candidate who meets neither WP:BIO nor WP:C&E. Vectro 01:36, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

  • Delete Propaganda for hopeful politician.--Húsönd 01:40, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete now, but allow it to be recreated if he's elected. RedRollerskate 02:26, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete per nom. TJ Spyke 05:18, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep and Rewrite He is a notable person with 32,000 google hits. he has no chance to win but someone should rewrite the article. Electricbassguy 20:28, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete per nom. Madchen Hoch 22:05, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep all articles about major-party candidates for Congress or other offices of that significance. JamesMLane t c 09:42, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep per JamesMLane. C&E is neither policy nor guideline. It is a proposal. It is a misguided proposal. He is notable as a major party candidate — not a garage band — so we not focus on self-promotion questions here. Any potential POV issues are vanilla, and should be dealt with as usual, through editing. We can spare the 1K this takes. Fishboy 10:47, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
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The result was delete. --Mr. Lefty (talk) 22:08, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Greg Pierce (politician)

delete, Yet another political hopeful who satisfies neither WP:C&E nor WP:BIO. Vectro 01:33, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

  • Delete Currently NN.--Húsönd 01:37, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete Right now, it doesn't satisfy notability guidelines. Hello32020 02:05, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete now, but allow it to be recreated if he's elected. RedRollerskate 02:27, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete per nom. TJ Spyke 05:18, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete and restore if he wins. Cynical 07:32, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete per nom. Madchen Hoch 22:06, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep all articles about major-party candidates for Congress or other offices of that significance. JamesMLane t c 09:42, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep per JamesMLane. C&E is neither policy nor guideline. It is a proposal. It is a misguided proposal. He is notable as a major party candidate — not a garage band — so we don't need to worry about self-promotion here and we can spare the 1K this takes. Fishboy 10:44, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
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The result was delete. --Mr. Lefty (talk) 22:14, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Paul Nowell

  ATTENTION!

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This is a biography of a minor musician. I prodded it, and the main contributor deprodded it claiming that it meets WP:MUSIC for working on a film score. However, having contributed to the score of one minor film doesn't automatically qualify someone for an article. Anyway, the subject doesn't appear to meet notability guidelines, and he generated no major online mentions. The article strongly appears to be autobiographical- the main contributor is Jazztrbn77, which like stands for "Jazz trombone." --Wafulz 01:38, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

  • Delete I'm sure he's a good musician and wish him the best of luck, but it seems to be a vanity page. The writing style is very subjective (seems self-written). Also too long an article, too much info for a subject lacking notability. (Therin83 01:55, 16 October 2006 (UTC))
  • Delete It may not meet WP:MUSIC criteria, it doesn't appear notable, and is vanity. Hello32020 02:04, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep I know him and he is a very active musician in California. It does meet WP:MUSIC criteria. It states "A musician or ensemble (note that this includes a band, singer, rapper, orchestra, hip hop crew, DJ, musical theatre group, etc.) is notable if it meets ANY ONE of the criteria. One of the criteria is Has performed music for a work of media that is notable, e.g. a theme for a network television show. If that isnt true then they should rewrite the WP:MUSIC criteria — Possible single purpose account: Kimalvara (talk • contribs) has made few or no other contributions outside this topic.
  • You conveniently ignored the following:
Has performed music for a work of media that is notable, e.g. a theme for a network television show. (But if this is the only claim, it is probably more appropriate to have a mention in the main article and redirect to that page.)--Wafulz 23:50, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep looked at WP:Music and agree with kimalvara it says any one of the following, he is on IMDB— Possible single purpose account: Happyday1954 (talk • contribs) has made few or no other contributions outside this topic.
    • Again, read what I have in the nomination. It doesn't matter if he's on IMDb- he has do have actually done something notable. --Wafulz 23:50, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep Looks legit to me (Raytuflin 1:54, 16 october 2006 — Possible single purpose account: Raytuflin (talk • contribs) has made few or no other contributions outside this topic.
  • Keep (Duccio505 11:54, 16 october 2006 — Possible single purpose account: Duccio505 (talk • contribs) has made few or no other contributions outside this topic.
  • Delete Don't agree that he meets WP:MUSIC - "Has performed music for a work of media that is notable" - playing a trombone doesn't equate to "has performed" unless it is a solo or small ensemble work. Otherwise every member of every orchestra would be notable. QuiteUnusual 16:56, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete, the movie he did the theme for is pretty "independent," if you know what I mean. Doesn't seem notable. Recury 17:05, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete per nom. Doesn't meet WP:MUSIC. Playing trombone in a piece of music for a minor film doesn't meet such criteria. Delta Tango | Talk 21:31, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete Studio musicians usually aren't notable unless they achieve notability on their own (e.g., Lisa Germano). OhNoitsJamie Talk 05:57, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
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The result was keep. Can't sleep, clown will eat me 00:25, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Dainippon Ink & Chemicals

nn company Tydu 01:45, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

→ Possible bad faith nomination by a single purpose account. This account has edits relating only to this nomination. ···日本穣? · Talk to Nihonjoe 19:00, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep About 100 years old, publicly traded, over 25,000 employees and sales exceeding $8.5 billion US per year[6]. However, I think some of the material in the article itself may be inaccurate --Wafulz 01:51, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Weak Keep It needs citation, but since it is notable, we should probably keep it. Hello32020 02:01, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep per above, if it can be cleaned-up and expanded a bit.--KojiDude (Contributions) 02:42, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Note: This debate has been included in the list of Japan-related deletions. -- Zyyxnccc 03:15, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep per above, if claims are true. --- RockMFR 03:51, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep. I think I have fixed the factual errors, which seem to relate to information on a printing company with a similar name. --TruthbringerToronto (Talk | contribs) 04:29, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep major player Fg2 06:55, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Speedy Keep as bad faith nom by possible single purpose account. ···日本穣? · Talk to Nihonjoe 18:58, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
    • Please assume good faith. Legitimate contributors often choose not to have accounts. However, to complete an AFD nomination page an account is required. So someone may create an account, use it to do a nomination, and then never login again until they want to create another page. GRBerry 18:12, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
      • However, the odds of someone who has never done any editing under an account also knowing how to do the whole AfD process correctly is pretty low. Also note that I indicated it was a possible SPA, not a given. ···日本穣? · Talk to Nihonjoe 19:05, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
        • I wouldn't say it's a SPA. Possibly just a new user without much experience. He does bring up a good point, though. This article needs alot of clean-up, and some references to prove it's notability.--KojiDude (Contributions) 21:29, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment Unclear to me if the company meets the WP:CORP standards. Evidence is not in the stub. I suspect the multiple press coverage standard is met, but we don't have evidence here yet. It may also meet the stock market index test, but again there is no evidence. GRBerry 18:12, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
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The result was delete. Can't sleep, clown will eat me 22:19, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Mayan Restaurant

An article about what seems to be a cool but non-notable restaurant. No major reviews, and no media mentions outside of a few local articles, leading me to believe the article does not meet WP:CORP and that it is also non-verifiable. Wafulz 01:47, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

  • Delete Fails to assert notability. Futile spam, doesn't even say where's the restaurant. --Húsönd 01:58, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete agree with both Wafulz and Husond.—Preceding unsigned comment added by Therin83 (talk • contribs)
  • Delete although it sounds incredibly awesome. Andrew Lenahan - Starblind 02:05, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete The article may not meet WP:CORP and/or WP:NOTABLE. Hello32020 02:11, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete per nom. *drew 02:26, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete Szczur Zosia 09:12, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete per above. MER-C 11:22, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete as if nothing else, while the article doesn't say where the restaurant is located, checking the website indicates that they're somewhere in Utah. I'm willing to say that it's possible that an individual restaurant in a major city might qualify. But this? So far nothing. At most, I'd say redirect to Larry H. Miller FrozenPurpleCube 13:36, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Weak Keep It is a restaurant in Salt Lake City (well, actually a suburb called Sandy). Part of a multi-milion dollar development called Jordan Commons including movie theaters, IMAX, yada, yada. A quick google search shows it to be quite well reviewed in Utah publications, and an newspaper article here and there mentioning it ([7]). It has some national notability since it is (allegedly) a knock off of a resturant called Casa Bonita in Colorado (as mentioned in the Larry H. Miller article). IMHO there should be enough notablity to make this verifiable and technically eligible, assuming somebody has the interest to rewrite the article more descriptive, and discuss the Casa Bonita issue. Personally, even though I am familiar with the place, I can't find the motivation. And for the record, Andrew, its not nearly as awesome as it sounds. - CosmicPenguin (Talk) 20:49, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
    • Any interest in a Jordan Commons article then? FrozenPurpleCube 21:17, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete May be a cool resturant, but as Jimbo said himself in his C-SPAN interview, you can't just waltz in and write about something in your local area you think is cool. It has to be notable.--KojiDude (Contributions) 22:31, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete Not notable enough to have an article yet. I have eaten at this resturant and it is indeed very cool, but local media coverage saying how cool it is is not enough. After it has a longer history and has had a verifiable impact on the local community, then an article may be called for. Vic sinclair 23:51, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
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The result was delete. --Mr. Lefty (talk) 22:56, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] C-GPFG

Article about non-notable aircraft, and is a copy and paste from reg database PPGMD 01:48, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

  • Delete Unless something notable about it can be found. Even then, it probably needs to be redirected to whatever makes it notable. FrozenPurpleCube 01:58, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete The article is not notable. Right now, the article has nonething in it that makes it notable. Hello32020 02:00, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete per above. MER-C 03:02, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete per above. Cynical 07:26, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete Huh? A page on someone's private plane? NawlinWiki 14:16, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete per "Wikipedia is not an advertising service". C-GPFG isn't somebody's 'private plane'; it's used for flight training. I suspect somebody may have added this article as a sneaky ad for the flight service. Strangely, the former C-GPFG was slightly notable, being one of the last DC-4s in regular commercial use in Canada. It was broken up in the 80s, though. Charlene.fic 16:13, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
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The result was Speedy delete a7 (web) per author's comments, below. NawlinWiki 14:18, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Darrin's Life

I think this is not notable, but as I don't follow Internet culture I could be wrong. However, the article asserts that "There is only one remotely famous person to even review the series", which indicates non-notability. N Shar 01:58, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

  • Speedy Delete per A7, and WP:SNOW. Leuko 02:05, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Speedy Delete per A7 and WP:SNOW. Hello32020 02:10, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment I don't completely understand... so videos like Smosh can be on wikipedia... but these are pure garbage and have no place on wikipedia? Welcome1 01:58, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment Somebody please explain to me the rules I broke when I made this article. I cannot find it anywhere.Welcome1 02:16, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment: Smosh appears to be somewhat notable, where as the subject of this article does not seem to be. Also see WP:WEB. Leuko 02:19, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment No one's accusing you of breaking rules. We'd be happy if you continued to contribute; just because this one article may not have been appropriate for Wikipedia doesn't mean you are a bad editor. N Shar 02:27, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete. Non-notable series. *drew 02:29, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Thank you for that link, I can understand a little more if you are going to delete the article seeing how it's never been on television, won an award, or anything like that. Although, the series isn't very widely known it has a couple hundred viewers and thought it was notable enough to be here.Welcome1 02:30, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Hey, welcome to Wikipedia, and keep editing. But seriously, a "couple of hundred viewers" is well below notable levels. A couple of hundred-thousand or a couple of million might be better. You should also check out WP:VERIFY as well, since a subject's notability must be verifiable by outside sources. Has the series been reviewed by national press (major newspapers, trade press, magazines, etc. etc.)? If so, provide those links. --Jayron32 04:19, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete as well-meaning, but non-notable. And it's "Steve Irwin," not "Steve Erwin". eaolson 03:35, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Speedy delete Welcome1 speaks the truth when he says the videos have had a "couple hundred" views. However, that's really nothing by Youtube standards (some of that lonelygirl15 crap has well over a million views), and even some short random videos have millions of views too (a kitten falling asleep has 1.7 million), and the most popular videos have 10mil+ (all-time high as far as I can tell is 34 million). I hope Darrin keeps it up and maybe someday they'll catch on, but they haven't yet. Andrew Lenahan - Starblind 12:30, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
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The result was already speedy deleted. --Cpt. Morgan (Reinoutr) 08:11, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Getting pushed into bananas (Mario Kart)

Tagged for speedy, but not patent nonsense. This is a concept that, though well-known, does not deserve its own article and could better be discussed in Mario Kart. --Gray PorpoisePhocoenidae, not Delphinidae 02:16, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

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The result was Deleted as recreate. This page has been recreated a ludicrous eight times. This time it's final. I've slapped {{deletedpage}} on it, so until someone provides concrete info on the talk page it will stay gone. GarrettTalk 21:38, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Mario Kart Wii

This article was delete back in May, and nothing has changed since then. This game is still NOT officially in development, and the page is nothing but rumors. TJ Spyke 02:36, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

  • Note: This debate has been added to the list of CVG deletions. TJ Spyke 02:39, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete. Can wait until it is officially announced. Thunderbrand 02:44, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Redirect to Wii--KojiDude (Contributions) 02:47, 16 October 2006 (UTC) Changed vote to Delete. Not a very likley search term.--KojiDude (Contributions) 22:22, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Note: This debate has been included in the list of Japan-related deletions. -- Zyyxnccc 03:15, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete. Wikipedia is not a crystal ball. --- RockMFR 03:47, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete per above. MER-C 05:38, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete Crystal balling = bad Konman72 07:34, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete - Not officially announced, therefore crystal-balling. The Kinslayer 10:46, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete per nom. Too early. Madchen Hoch 22:07, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete per above.Rlk89 01:49, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
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The result was delete. --Mr. Lefty (talk) 22:58, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Dianne Doctor

Would've listed under speedy delete as an attack (the article's main purpose seems only to disparage the subject, strongly fails WP:NPOV), but listed on AfD because it's been up for over a year. Additionally, the subject does not meet WP:BIO as a former 4-year TV news director (even for a major NYC station). At the very least, the article doesn't substantiate notability. SkerHawx 02:40, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

I am also nominating the following related page because it's a redirect to this article:

  • Diane Doctor


  • Delete Only one sentence out of the whole article is referenced. Sounds like a load of WP:OR and fails WP:BIO miserably.--KojiDude (Contributions) 02:51, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete per above. MER-C 05:39, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete per nom and all above. Bizarre and creepy hit piece. --Aaron 05:44, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete, fails WP:BIO. NawlinWiki 14:19, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete, attack page. I'm not sure news directors are even notable either. Kirjtc2 14:55, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete A very gossipy, chatty and largely unreferenced article. Edison 19:03, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete per nom. Fails WP:BLP. Madchen Hoch 22:08, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
    • Comment Are all AFDs supossed to stay open for a certain ammount of time? Alot of the recent AfDs have gotten nothing but Delete votes, but are still open.--KojiDude (Contributions) 22:26, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • I believe the minimum is five days. You can read about the guidelines at WP:AFD. GassyGuy 07:09, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
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The result was flagged as copyvio. MER-C 04:57, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Ashley Bickerton

Delete per WP:BIO. Deprodded. - CrazyRussian talk/email 02:46, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

  • Speedy Delete per G12, currently copyvio from this website. Appears notable though, keep if totally rewritten.--Húsönd 03:04, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
Changed to regular delete.--Húsönd 03:19, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
    • Comment The content has been on WP for too long for speedy deletion via copyvio; however, there's no reason that the article can't just be tagged as a copyvio and removed from AfD discussion. -- Kicking222 03:10, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
      • Yeah, I forgot the 48 hour requirement. I agree with your suggestion.--Húsönd 03:19, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
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The result was merge. --Mr. Lefty (talk) 23:06, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Cooper Point Journal

Contested prod; student paper, no evidence of real notability, delete --Peta 03:02, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

  • Keep. Student newspapers are generally notable. As well, this one has several notable alumni. --TruthbringerToronto (Talk | contribs) 03:48, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Weak delete. My Google search gives only 837 results including Wiki mirrors, several E-Bay items, multiple resumes, and posts from web forums and listservs. I can't find anything that suggets notability outside of the college community. Consequentially 04:43, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Merge to The Evergreen State College. Since when are student newspapers notable? They are just another student organization, and student organizations are generally not notable, unless they are the Hasty Pudding Club. --Brianyoumans 05:35, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Merge as per Brianyoumans unless broader/deeper cultural impact beyond college community can be shown Bwithh 14:54, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep - whilst I disagree that student newspapers are generally notable, previous contributors to this one give it sufficient notability. However, a source needs to be found to verify this. Asp 15:26, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Weak keep, given Matt Groening's associations with the paper ([8], [9], [10]). If not, definitely merge with Evergreen State College. Zagalejo 20:22, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Super Ultra Keep go geoducks! CPJ functions as alternative/secondary media for Olympia. SchmuckyTheCat 06:48, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Merge per Brianyoumans. Being associated with notable folks is likely worth mentioning in the section, but that still doesn't justify a separate article. Can you imagine if we added articles for every student organization at every college or university that once claimed a famous person as a member? GassyGuy 07:11, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Merge. No need for a seperate encyclopedia article. Akradecki 22:49, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete or Merge. Does not assert notabality. Vegaswikian 20:57, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Merge doesn't seem like enough material to justify a separate article. OhNoitsJamie Talk 06:01, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
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The result was delete all. --Mr. Lefty (talk) 23:02, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Evolutionary philosophy

This page (and the others listed) is an essay/soapbox created by User:MikeBaharmast about a topic which has no google hits outside of http://www.mbscientific.com/. Evolutionary philosophy was a contested prod. Khatru2 03:26, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

I am also nominating these for the same reasons:
  • Morphological Flows
  • Material morphogenesis
  • Social Morphogenesis
  • Delete all as original research. NawlinWiki 03:29, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Strong delete all as original research and pseudoscientific gibberish. eaolson 03:39, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete all as proposed. Gazpacho 03:44, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete all per above. OR, POV, soapbox. Fan-1967 04:20, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete all. Clearly OR.--ragesoss 04:25, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete all per above. Evolutionary philosophy should perhaps be redirected to Social effect of evolutionary theory for the time being, although philosophy and evolution is a subject that may well be worth an article in its own right. - Smerdis of Tlön 14:25, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Redirect the first one to philosophy of biology, delete the rest. ... discospinster talk 16:28, 16 October

2006 (UTC)

  • I agree, that is a better redirect. - Smerdis of Tlön 21:05, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete OR. QuiteUnusual 18:01, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete all --Peta 05:22, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Strong delete and Weak redirect. Specifically: Weak redirect Evolutionary philosophy -> philosophy of biology. Strong delete the other three: Morphological Flows, Material morphogenesis, and Social Morphogenesis. Reasoning is by nom and by eaolson for deletes. Resaonding for redirect is that it makes sense, but I'd be perfectly okay with a delete, too, on Evolutionary philosophy. AubreyEllenShomo 21:55, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete all decision to redirect can be made editorially after deletion has occured. Eluchil404 09:39, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
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The result was no consensus. --Mr. Lefty (talk) 23:09, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] List of last games released for video game consoles

Listcruft. There's no significance attributed to the last game for a console. If anything, I think it might just be indicative of what company was slowest to get their product to market, and nothing more. eaolson 03:32, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

  • Keep. Interesting article, fairly easily verifiable. --- RockMFR 03:49, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep, agreed that its interesting, but needs to be sourced and expanded -- Coasttocoast 04:30, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete WP:NOT a list of trivia. As the nom says, there is no encyclopaedic significance associated with being the last game for a console. GassyGuy 06:51, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
    • Comment If we can have a launch title article, which lists all the first games for consoles, then why can't we devote a page to the last games of each console? There are so many other lists filled with semi-obscure information on the site that I can't see how this one isn't valid too. Phediuk 20:44, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
      • Quite a few of those should be deleted. Plus, your logic could be used to justify any article. "We have a game on the first and last games for consoles, so why can't we devote a page to the ninth game of each console?" GassyGuy 23:30, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
      • Comment. The reason we shouldn't have this article is because there's no significance to the last game for a platform. The launch title article asserts the significance of these games by saying "Because they provide first impressions of the console's features and technical abilities, they are extremely important in the video game industry, and many launch titles have been killer games." eaolson 03:31, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
        • I disagree. The last games released for consoles typically give us a look at the maximum potential of those consoles (as they are released at a time when developers have mastered a system's hardware), and also show us the extent of the support/lifespan of that console. In that respect, they are significant. Phediuk 14:05, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
          • If this article is about the life cycle of a console, then it should be about the life cycle of a console and the last game released for that console is irrelevant. eaolson 23:17, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Note: This debate has been included in the list of Japan-related deletions. -- Zqui33 11:16, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep and Expand The problem as it stands now is that it's so small. I hate to throw around the word 'useful', but it's actually something that could be used as a point of research, which is what an encyclopedia is for, is it not? ♫ Melodia Chaconne ♫ 12:01, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep Extremely useful, as it's a great way to show and compare the commercial "lifespan" of each system. I don't understand the nominator's reasoning, especially the part about being slowest to market. Andrew Lenahan - Starblind 12:10, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
    • Comment. What I meant by that is the launch title for a console is a big deal. It's probably chosen because it showcases the capabilities of the new hardware, and there is often a lot of buzz surrounding them and their release is highly anticipated. Not so with the last game for a platform. I doubt a lot of production companies have "Yay, we're last!" parties. eaolson 03:31, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
      • Maybe they aren't throwing parties, but the last games let us see how long and extensively a console's life cycle is, and they mark the end of support for a given console (marking the transition to the next generation of consoles.) In that respect, they are significant and are deserving of recognition. Phediuk 22:15, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Merge trivia factoids to respective console main articles. Not much use combined in a list. Bwithh 13:03, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • This info belongs in the individual articles for each system. Delete. Doc Sigma (wait, what?) 14:08, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep and Expand This is useful and interesting information. There just needs to be more of it and it needs to be sourced. Phediuk 14:09, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep I'll be honest, I think this information would be better with the "First and Last" releases, to get a view of the system lifespan, and I think it's missing some notable consoles, like the Atari and Sega ones. Sure, this information could be in the individual console articles, but consolodating it is useful too. FrozenPurpleCube 14:45, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Merge - as per Bwithh Asp 15:29, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
    • Comment I would state that any system that doesn't have the info certainly should -- and without even checking would be willing to bet all the ones listed do; however, I still think that this list is worthwhile as stand alone info consoludated into one article, as well. ♫ Melodia Chaconne ♫ 15:58, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Merge to the articles on the consoles and the games. Recury 17:00, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete per nom. No need for this trivia. Madchen Hoch 22:09, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
    • Weak reason for deleting an article. The "don't need" reasoning can be applied to anything on the site. Phediuk 22:21, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete per nom; worst-case, merge per Bwithh. "Interesting" is a highly subjective but non-encyclopedic criterion, which is much more indicative of triviality than anything. As for "useful", which is also rather subjective, beyond the mere assertion that it is I don't buy that this is any more useful than any other trivia or indiscriminate material. Agent 86 22:42, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete. Launch titles have some verifiable significance; last games released have none except that being projected/ginned up here. Listcruft. --Calton | Talk 05:26, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
    • The "verifiable" problem is easily solved through sourcing, which is the only problem with this lsit right now. As for significance, my other comments sum up my view nicely: "the last games let us see how long and extensively a console's life cycle is, and they mark the end of support for a given console (marking the transition to the next generation of consoles.) In that respect, they are significant and are deserving of recognition." Phediuk 22:19, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete (or merge). The mere fact that something is potentially interesting does not mean that it belongs in an encyclopedia. Unlike lists of launch titles, lists of last titles can be extremely hard to verify, and may even become inaccurate without anyone noticing if a minor geographically-restricted release occurs after an entry for a console has been added. In short, unmaintainable. — Haeleth Talk 09:16, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep, failing that Merge into respective console articles. These are valuable factoid when discussing the consoles in question; I'm not sure if needs an article if we're just listing the very last releases. Would be a very interesting article if it listed some of the very last releases, as well as the conditions that transpired (Sunday Funday is an unlicenced game, what's the last licenced release for NES? What was that homebrew game again that was released for Jaguar years later and sold in US and profits went to charity, if my memory doesn't fail me?) but even then, these factoids are probably best if they're stowed in the individual machine articles. --wwwwolf (barks/growls) 15:05, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete, listcruft. Pavel Vozenilek 16:36, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
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The result was keep. Can't sleep, clown will eat me 22:11, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Sarah Garnett

"New Zealand's Female Umpire of the Year." The last sentence of the article suggests a conflict of interest.

  • Delete, not notable, conflict of interest. Gazpacho 03:41, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep - umpired at the highest level, in a sport which is professional, and is part of the Olympics. Blnguyen | BLabberiNg 03:43, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
    • More - I have cleaned up a bit. She is on the elite panel of international hockey umpires, and officiated in the final of the recent Hockey World Cup (female).Blnguyen | BLabberiNg 03:57, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep, per Blnguyen. Rebecca 03:48, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep She deserves it —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Umpire99 (talk • contribs) 04:10, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep - I've added the appropriate stub templates. Grutness...wha? 06:42, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete, not even close to notable unless there was some huge upswing in the popularity of field hockey yesterday. Recury 16:58, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
    • Given that (field) hockey is one of the two most popular sports in India (along with cricket), as well as being a major sport is quite a large number of other countries (including New Zealand, which is what this article is about), there are probably quite a few hundred million people interested in this sport - which would be quite a few times more than are interested in baseball, say. Define "popularity"... Grutness...wha? 00:14, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
      • Well I don't define it as having 798 ghits with none on the first page even relevant. Recury 01:30, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
        • Not even the sixth one? Not that that really addresses your comment about the popularity of hockey. And - despite the lack of google hits (which isn't always highly relevant), I would say that being the main match referee for the world cup final of a sport played (according to the latest world rankings) in 64 countries is pretty notable. Grutness...wha? 01:03, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
          • I guess we'll have to disagree then, since I don't think that's much of a claim to notability at all. I'm sure it'll be a great article though. GOOD JOB SARAH, CONGRATS! Recury 02:36, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep - it's true that field hockey isn't terribly popular in the United States, but there's no suggestion that the wikipedia hard disks are running short of sectors. - Richardcavell 23:55, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
    • Comment - Oh, snap. Wavy G 01:20, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
  • delete Deletion of this article is not an indictment of field hockey vis a vis its popularity with other sports. WP:V is a clear policy that REQUIRES non-trivial third party references that clearly establish a subject's notability. This article has NO REFERENCES. I will not deny that this subject may be the most highly regarded umpire in the entire world with regard to field hockey. If there is not a reputable, third party source that notes that, it can't be verified and doesn't belong in Wikipedia. WP:V is clear: Truth that is unverified does not belong on wikipedia, even if it is true. If you want to keep the article, fix it by providing reputable, third party sources that establish notability. --Jayron32 04:40, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Weak keep per Blnguyen but get some references in there. --Dhartung | Talk 06:05, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete as unsourced and at significant risk of being not verifiable. Umpires are particularly hard to find sourcing on, as when they are really successful nobody remembers what they do, not even fans of the sport in question. If reliable sourcing appears, feel free to use my talk page to request a change in this opinion. GRBerry 18:18, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep per above. --badlydrawnjeff talk 18:43, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment - I've now added a couple of references, which was easy enough to do. Perhaps it would be better in future to find a reference rather than say "delete because there's no reference"? Grutness...wha? 01:16, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
    • Those look like trivial references to me; they certainly aren't enough to base a biography on. But they are a start, so it might be possible to have an article adhering to our policies. GRBerry 01:36, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
    • reply I apologize in advance. This post turned out much longer than I intended. Still, if interested read on. Checked out the references. Still pretty sketchy. The problem we need to address is twofold. 1) Certain professions are inherantly more notable than others and 2) That issue notwithstanding, the basic test is "How is this XXXXX more notable than the average XXXXX". With problem 1), we have the situation that a field hockey umpire is more in the public eye than say, a housepainter; but certainly less so than say a politician. So if her only notability is as a Field Hockey umpire, than she'd better have done something SPECTACULARLY notable. She might meet point 2)'s requirements, but does she meet point 1)'s? She has been acknowledged as a World Cup referee, which certainly makes her quite notable within her profession, but does her very profession make her notable enough? These references are pretty trivial. They establish 1) She exists and 2) She's a ref and 3) She's a good ref. Going back to the housepainter analogy; perhaps (hypothetically) a housepainter is given a contract to paint, say, the Eiffel Tower. Wow, what an honor. Perhaps even his local paper writes an article about him. Perhaps, even Le Monde makes a passing note: Monsieur Jean DuMont, housepainter, was chosen to paint the Eiffel Tower. SO, we have established 1) Jean DuMont exists, and 2) he's a painter and 3) He's a good painter. The problem is, so what? In order to be a notable profession, it must be the kind of thing that is in the public eye to the point that discourse and debate is common and readily found. Photographers, atheletes, politicians, authors, etc. etc. are all people who's work is part of the public discourse. It is analyzed by thousands of people all the time. There are public evaluations, public criticisms, public reviews of their work. It's debated, it's argued about, it's analyzed... Johnny Unitas was a great quarteback because.... Vincent Van Gogh was a landmark painter because.... Lord North was a terrible Prime Minister because... See, there is an inherant notability to the profession. No one has ever said "Jean Dumont is a great housepainter because..." and had this debate in the public forum. Likewise, no one is going to say "Sarah Garnett is the world's best Umpire because..." Well, some people might say it, but such a discourse will NOT occur within the public forum (academia, journalism, etc.) Thus, even though true, it's still probably not notable. --Jayron32 04:01, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
      • Strong keep - She umpired in the final of a World Cup of an Olympic sport. See Samsung 2006 World Cup Hockey Site. There's also a PDF file for each game which I can't grab the URL from at the moment. If the International Hockey Federation think she's good enough to umpire the World Cup final, that's good enough for me. - fchd 20:23, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
        • reply Yes, but is it good enough for WikiPedia. Does she meet the primary notability criteria? That is, does she appear as a non-trivial subject of several reputable third party reference? If no, then she must go. I will concede she is the BEST UMPIRE EVER TO PUT ON A STRIPED SHIRT IN ANY SPORT. She still doesn't meet notability criteria, and so she must go. --Jayron32 20:42, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
          • reply to reply - In other words, she basically needs to pass a notability criterion - we need to be able to say something like "Sarah Garnett is notable because she umpired the world cup final of a major sport". Well, we can say that. It appears to me that she easily meets the criteria of notability for Wikipedia, and it's clearly verifiable that she achieves that mark. To use the things listed on the notability criterion guidelines page (guidelines, mind, not policy): The person made a widely recognized contribution that is part of the enduring historical record in their specific field. Check. Sportspeople/athletes/competitors who have played in a fully professional league, or a competition of equivalent standing in a non-league sport such as swimming, or at the highest level in mainly amateur sports or other competitive activites that are themselves considered notable, including college sports in the United States. She has done the equivalent of this as an official, and more, so check. She also passes the Verifiability, expandability and 100 year tests as listed on that page. The fact that she fails one of the tests (as not being been the primary subject of multiple non-trivial published works) seems to be more than outweighed by th five criteria which she does meet. Grutness...wha? 05:13, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
            • Reply to the reply to the reply An excellent coherant arguement. Let me respond. We need to be able to say more than she umpired the World Cup. We also need to be able to say that Umpiring the World Cup is in itself notable. If it is notable, it is by definition NONTRIVIAL. If it is non-trivial, then non-trivial references exist regarding World Cup umpiring. Are people who are world cup umpires the subject of non-trivial mentions in national press? Do umpiring journals review their work? DOes the umpire critic of the New York Times feature her in a review? Has she been the subject of scholarly journals of how to umpire correctly? Don't dismiss the non-trivial aspect of the notability guideline so off-handed. It is the key part of the entire guideline. Non-triviality ensures that verifiability is not the sole criteria for inclusion. I have a buddy (this is true) lets call John Doe (not his real name). John Doe recieved an award from President Bush as one of the top 50 teachers in the U.S. He went to the White House, stood in a line, and got an award from Bush citing him as one of the best of his profession. I have a picture and everything. The local newspaper did a neat little article on it. Yet, he doesn't merit a Wikipedia article because there is no NONTRIVIAL mention of him. No one reviews his work in the public discourse. We know he won the award. Yet, he does not belong to a profession(High School Teacher), the performance of which is a matter of debate in the public record. If his profession is not notable, then he cannot be notable for having that profession, EVEN if he is regarded as one of the best. Likewise, being a the best umpire is not notable because being an umpire in any fashion is not notable. Using the sportspeople/athlete/competitor analogy is faulty because she wasn't a competitor. She was an umpire. --Jayron32 05:35, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep. The behavior of the author of the article (Umpire99) in response to this AfD tempted me to vote neutral, or at least pass altogether, but setting that aside, I'd say she's notable enough in her field, and her field is an olympic sport. I have a hard time with arguments that an olympic sport is non-notable. (It's not the housepainter-and-the-eiffel-tower analogy. There is no olympic housepainting competition. As for conflict of interest, the case made was that the article proclaimed her "New Zealand's Female Umpire of the Year." The article claims that she was named as such, rather than that she is such or self-procliams as such. That is evidence of notability, not vanity. There is a difference.) There's no WP:V problem. There is at least ehough verifiable info for a stub, mabye more. There is no clear consensus she's nonnotable, and there is abundant evidnce of notability to a large enough group of people. Given that, I must say keep. AubreyEllenShomo 19:40, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
    • reply There's also not an Olympic umpiring competition. There's an Olympic field hockey competition. She wasn't a competitor; she was an umpire. MANY people are involved in olympic competitions; what about the guy who mowed the lawn on the field... The one who painted the lines on the field... The issue is not that she was involved in the Olympics. The issue is that the thing the article claims her to be notable for (an umpire). Simply winning an award, or having a newspaper article noting the award, does not embody NON-TRIVIAL coverage. Unless we can find abundant evidence in the press of her performance as an umpire, there is not enough to build an article on. One of the key issues in the Notablity guidelines, says, and I quote "The person has been the primary subject of multiple non-trivial published works whose source is independent of the person. (Multiple similar stories describing a single day's news event only count as one coverage.)". She has, under this standard, one single coverage: She was once named NZ Umpire of the Year. That, in and of itself, is not enough to build an article around. If you had some sources that commented on her technique or her contributions to the field of umpiring, it would make her more notable, since we could put that in the article. A one sentance article doesn't seem very notable to me. --Jayron32 01:53, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete I'm not going to question the notability of the sport; rather, I doubt that there are many umpires in any sport that meet WP:BIO guidelines unless they have high visibility or are embroiled in some sort of controversey. OhNoitsJamie Talk 06:05, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
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The result was delete. Can't sleep, clown will eat me 22:22, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Sarah Hanson-Young

This person will be running as a Senate candidate in South Australia for the Australian Greens. The Greens are yet to have success in winning Senate seats in South Australia - the last time polling 6%, whereas you need about 14% to get a seat. Crystal balling aside, and the unlikeliness of winning, there is no other notability guidelines met. Prod was rolled back by User:Rebecca. Blnguyen | BLabberiNg 03:41, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

  • Keep. She is a notable candidate, having run for the Legislative Council earlier this year (in a ticket that did get people elected), and has a fair chance of election to the Senate in the wake of the rapidly rising Green vote in the state. This could well be of interest to plenty of people in advance of the federal election, and there are plenty of verifiable sources around. Rebecca 03:45, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
    • Reply - Results of the Australian legislative election, 2004, shows that the Green vote was 6% in the Senate. South Australian legislative election, 2006 shows that the Green vote is 4.3% in the Legislative Council (state version of upper house). This would indicate that (aside from state federal differences) the Green vote is actually declining and not rapidly rising and would need a big jump to get to the 14% mark by this time next year for the 2007 Federal election. As to the point that Greens got a state seat - there were 11 available so they needed to top-up at 8.3% whereas for the Senate there are 6, so they need 14.2% - so that's why State success will not automatically translate to FEderal success, as there are less seats available. Blnguyen | BLabberiNg 03:51, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
      • Reply - electoral results are largely irrelevant. She is notable because she is the leader of a political party that will be running in the election. Zzymurgy 04:12, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete -- partly because without having won an election she is not particularly notable, and also because the article contains very little of value. Her chances of election are not great in what is a still a Democrat stronghold, and there is nothing here that cannot be recreated within 60 seconds if she does succeed. Jeendan 04:24, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete losing elections does not make one notable. Unless she is already notable for other reasons, she fails the WP:NN test. A "fair chance of being elected" implies potential "future" success. WikiPedia is not a Crystal Ball. --Jayron32 04:25, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete IF she wins (which seems unlikely based on her previous attempts), then maybe she can have an article. TJ Spyke 05:15, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete Recreate if she wins. Resolute 06:15, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete.--cj | talk 09:07, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete Crystal ball - CrazyRussian talk/email 11:29, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete non-notable candidate. Haven't we already deleted an article on her in the past? Or was that about her husband Zane Young, who is also a Greens candidate? --Roisterer 14:31, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Note: This debate has been included in the list of Australia-related deletions. -- Longhair\talk 21:56, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete Crystal balling, no useful content, no reliable sources. Being part of a ticket in which people got elected doesn't give you a wikipedia article. Andjam 22:07, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete clearly not notable.TheRanger 01:09, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Merge if there are other green party candidates articles over here. Per WP:C&E --Ageo020 (Talk • Contribs) 01:50, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete, unelected and nn political candidate. Can be recreated if she actually wins. Lankiveil 22:51, 18 October 2006 (UTC).
  • Keep. Not being elected does not mean she is not notable. Andrea Mason has never been elected, but she has an extensive article.Zzymurgy 03:52, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
    • Andrea Mason is the leader of a mid-range state political party. Blnguyen | BLabberiNg 03:47, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
      • Reply - mid-range political party? The Greens consistently poll better than Family First. She is just as notable as any other party's lead candidate. Zzymurgy 03:53, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
        • Reply - That's right, Greens are upper-mid range. FF are not. Mason was the designated spokesperson for the Federal FF campaign. Hanson-Young is not. Blnguyen | BLabberiNg 03:56, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
          • Reply - actually, she is. That's what lead candidate means. Zzymurgy 04:02, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete - no claims to notability have been established, however. —Khoikhoi 03:45, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete per strong argument raised by Blnguyen. -- Samir धर्म 04:52, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete this one and undelete if necessary, per Blnguyen.
  • Delete per nom. OhNoitsJamie Talk 06:06, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
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The result was delete. - Mailer Diablo 16:37, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Midas Stalane LLC

Contested prod. Original prod said "Apparent surreptitious advertisement for painter's commercial website. Painter fails WP:BIO; company fails WP:CORP—both returning zero Google hits; website has an Alexa ranking of "no data". Article appears to violate WP:COI, being created by editor with name of website/painter--Fuhghettaboutit 07:39, 14 October 2006 (UTC)" Khatru2 03:57, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

  • Delete per me:-) And thanks for the afd Kahtru.--Fuhghettaboutit 04:08, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete per nom. -- Gogo Dodo 05:18, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete This one gets high marks for the zero hits on Google. Maybe they mis-spelled the name? Out!!! --Brianyoumans 05:42, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete, unsourced/unverified/spam. NawlinWiki 14:21, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete. Appears to be a WP:VANITY piece created by the subject. Fails WP:BIO for notability QuiteUnusual 18:05, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

Dont Delete - I put the page on and I am not the artist though I do work for the company. We took all reference to the external link off - the website previously refered to is no longer commerical - just informative - Its a new URL and Google only crawled it a few days ago. Anything else I need to do to keep this page from being deleted? Apologies but I am new at this also.

Hi there, OK Google now has the homepage (link since deleted) www.stalane.com as #1 for Midas Stalane LLC

  • Delete Looks purely commercial to me; the site is a slim site clearly geared toward sales, with next to no info. Google finds only that site and the Wiki. - Corporal Tunnel 01:20, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
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The result was keep. The ikiroid (talk·desk·Advise me) 17:02, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Apopka High School

Non-notable school, clearly an autobiographical article, written solely to glorify the school, odd formatting that is not in accordance with WP:MoS. Turn it into an encyclopedia article or delete. AmiDaniel (talk) 04:33, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

  • Provisional delete, if left in the current state - it's a very one-sided article, and per nom, should be deleted. However, if this article was completely re-written, or even stubbed, I could be swung to a weak keep etc. However, for now, delete. Daniel.Bryant 04:36, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Provisional delete, also. As it stands, the article is more vanity than substance, ignoring the type of information found in most articles about high schools in favor of a focus on football noteriety. Delete, unless significantly edited. Keep per edits made by WhisperToMe. Consequentially 05:42, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete per nom. TJ Spyke 05:14, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
    • Keep It looks much better now. TJ Spyke 05:52, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep - I trimmed lots of glorifying stuff and I am adding relevant information. WhisperToMe 05:17, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep after changes made by WhisperToMe. -- Gogo Dodo 05:33, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep Article looks good in its improved state. --Jayron32 05:38, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep per above. MER-C 06:16, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep. Let's not do the "schools are not notable" debate again. Mike H. I did "That's hot" first! 06:22, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment: I would still say delete as non-notable, but I do not recommend bringing high school articles to AfD, since it is unlikely to get consensus (for elementary and middle schools, it is less certain) and is more disruptive than keeping articles on schools that are non-notable, in my opinion. -- Kjkolb 07:26, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep per above Konman72 07:35, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep We have near-complete consensus that high school articles will be retained. In its current state, the article demonstrates that it more than meets the minimums needed to justify retention. Referring to "odd formatting that is not in accordance with WP:MoS" is a spectacularly poor reason to delete an article. This is yet another demonstration of the fact that this was an article that needed editing not deletion; AfD is a rather blunt and disruptive instrument to achive changes that could have been done in a far more productive manner. Alansohn 16:15, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep it. — RJH (talk) 20:18, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep22:48, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep as there has been near-complete consensus that high school articles will be retained. it also looks as article has been worked on recently as to some of the other issues. TheRanger 23:25, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep the edited version works for me.  ALKIVAR™ 03:04, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep as amended Merchbow 15:44, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep. Another very large school, ergo notable. -- Necrothesp 18:22, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep per above. I am a bit disappointed that the nominator, who is an experienced admin here, did not tag the article for cleanup. Style issues are not a reason for deletion. Silensor 17:28, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete, another non-notable school. —ptk✰fgs 20:07, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
    • Question: I'm sorry, which article were you reading when you made this comment? Silensor 21:19, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment: I disagree that there is a "near-complete consensus that high school articles will be retained" and I disagree with similar comments. Those who think that they are not notable have simply refrained from nominating them for deletion and have even declined to recommend that they be deleted when they are nominated by someone else. It would be wonderful if there were more instances of people putting the project ahead of their own feelings. It has not been that long since the heyday of high school AfD nominations and a huge number of articles were kept because no consensus was reached rather than a because there was a consensus to keep the article. Not infrequently, the majority recommended to delete the article but most were saved because of the high threshold needed for deletion. A few even reached consensus to delete, but that was admittedly rare. -- Kjkolb 22:17, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep and allow for organic growth, another notable high school needlessly nominated for deletion. Bahn Mi 05:15, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep one of our better school articles, and the 'schools are not notable' argument has been lost many times over already. Cynical 11:42, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep. If an article needs cleanup please put a cleanup tag on, dont bring it to afd.... Jcuk 16:48, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep, large high school. bbx 20:55, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
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The result was redirect to List of wikis. --Mr. Lefty (talk) 23:11, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] List of wiki based websites

Delete per WP:NOT. Wikipedia is not repository of links. Wikipedia is not a repository for links to wikis which are repositories for wikis which are links to repositories of wikis. Something like that. --- RockMFR 04:41, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

  • Speedy Delete Just a collection of links. TJ Spyke 05:13, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete per nom. List unmaintainable. -- Gogo Dodo 05:21, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete possibly speedy for having no content whatsoever. Resolute 06:17, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete per above. It doesn't even have a link to Wikipedia! MER-C 06:18, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Strong delete - horribly incomplete. There are literally thousands of wiki-based sites on the Internet. Zetawoof(ζ) 09:12, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Strong delete as "Wikipedia is NOT a web guide" Andrew Lenahan - Starblind 13:02, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Redirect to List of wikis. Plausible search term. Sjakkalle (Check!) 14:36, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
    • Ahhh, good point. I didn't even know that existed... --- RockMFR 02:27, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Strong Delete per all above.UberCryxic 18:37, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete and redirect per Sjakkalle. BryanG(talk) 20:46, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Redirect to List of wikis. As Sjakkalle noted, unless you happen to be aware of the short-hand usage of the term wikis to mean websites that run using the programs, "wiki based websites" is a perfectly sensible search term. --tjstrf 22:35, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • redirect to List of wikis. Highly agree. --Fractal3 22:46, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete and redirect per BryanG --AbsolutDan (talk) 03:03, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Redirect to List of Wikis, reasonable search term--Nilfanion (talk) 21:17, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete do not redirect. --MaNeMeBasat 15:03, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Redirect to List of articles about wikis to avoid breaking external links that point to this page. Angela. 05:27, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Redirect to List of wikis, which is the same as Nilfanion and Angela's links except the latter 2 are now redirects to there. (The page was moved to Angela's link 2 days ago because there were very few external links on the page, but I moved it back because lists of wikilinks don't usually have "articles of" in or the like in their title. I will explain on the talk page and not move war, though. Gotyear 12:25, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
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The result was Delete, per WP:BIO. Naconkantari 04:06, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Andy Stephenson

  ATTENTION!

If you came here because someone asked you to, or you read a message on a forum, please note that this is not a majority vote, but rather a discussion to establish a consensus among Wikipedia editors on whether a page is suitable for this encyclopedia. Wikipedia has policies and guidelines to help us decide this, and deletion decisions are made on the merits of the arguments, not by counting votes.

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He is a non-notable journalist. No evidence of any substantial publications. Internet allegations and rumors of both fraud and foul-play are used to smear his reputation and memory. One of the reasons that notability requirements are in place is to give privacy to friends and family of the deceased.

Note to closing Admin This AfD was spammed here per a note from one of the spammers below. --Tbeatty 15:08, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

Note to closing Admin This AfD was also spammed here. NBGPWS 20:53, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

who below pointed out the conservative underground spam? dman727 presented the link to DU.--Tbeatty 20:58, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
Redacted. NBGPWS 21:21, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

Note to people coming from Democratic Underground -- Notability and Verifiability have very specific meanings in the context of Wikipedia, and this is especially important to understand when participating in an AfD. If you want to make a case for saving this article, please familiarize yourself with WP:BIO and WP:RS. New comments go at the bottom to keep the flow of the debate. Also, please make sure you sign your posts with four tildes (~~~~). This records the exact account that made the post, as well as the time it was made. Taking the effort to do things the right way increases the chances that other editors will find your arguments compelling.--Rosicrucian 15:34, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

Note to people coming from Conservative Underground -- see above. VoiceOfReason 17:03, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

  • Delete as nominator. --Tbeatty 04:44, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete per nom. The only refs on that page that meet WP:RS are the two obituary links. --Aaron 04:47, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete per nom. Morton devonshire 04:53, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete - Notability is debatable (refactored personal attack). I attempted to correct the factual inaccuracies some time back, and was never quite successful against anonymous reverters. See this diff of something I removed last night. (refactored personal attack) - Crockspot 04:55, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete fails WP:BIO.--MONGO 05:01, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete. Wow, a non-notable subject that suffers from factual issues. Em-jay-es 05:12, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete per nom. Brimba 05:12, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep a google search turns up some nationally notable sources: several Seattle Weekly articles, as well as the subject of an HBO documentary . He's notable. However, someone needs to block the article from anon edits and remove all NPOV problems. It would appear that he is a controverial subject, but that is no reason for deletion. He has been noted in several national sources, and so is notable and verifiable. The article just needs a MAJOR clean-up and protection. --Jayron32 05:48, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • STRONG Keep - His life, career and death are all notable. NBGPWS 07:23, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete per nom. Karag 07:38, 16 October 2006 (UTC)— Possible single purpose account: Karag (talk • contribs) has made few or no other contributions outside this topic.
  • STRONG Keep - This article needs a rewrite, not a deletion. His candidacy for Sec. of State in Washington and the fact that national news media reported on him is reason enough to keep the page, regardless of what you may think of him. ChildOfTheMoon83 07:41, 16 October 2006 (UTC)*
  • Strong Delete Not notable. He's only notable in the minds of some extremist attempting to exploit his death. I happened across this myself while looking at an extremist web site and it seems they are looking to start a sockpuppet compaign to spam keeps. Additionally his Secretary of State "candidacy" failed to garner any signicant votes[11]Dman727 08:09, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • StrongKeep Andy's life was notable and his death (refactored personal attack) Ken Burch 00:35, 16 October 2006.— Possible single purpose account: Ken Burch (talk • contribs) has made few or no other contributions outside this topic.
CommentActually, user made a contribution to a different article before this AFD was opened, so incorrect to claim it could be a "single purpose account"Edison 20:35, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Strong keep —Preceding unsigned comment added by Blackbird71 (talk • contribs) — Possible single purpose account: Blackbird71 (talk • contribs) has made few or no other contributions outside this topic.
  • StrongKeep Andy Stephenson's case was an online cause celebre of considerable note mainly because he was targetted and smeared by right wing extremists as he lay dying in hospital. To allow these same degenerates to now delete the memory of his death would be a tragedy. - alastair thomspon (co-editor http://scoop.co.nz) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.97.96.48 (talk • contribs) — Possible single purpose account: 203.97.96.48 (talk • contribs) has made few or no other contributions outside this topic.
  • Conditional Keep: this article needs to be rewritten by a non-interested party and locked to prevent tampering. (Therin83 08:58, 16 October 2006 (UTC))
  • StrongKeep Andy Stephenson was a huge help to prove election vote tampering by the Black boxes. ([User: Erin Blair]]) 2:14 PM, October 16, 2006. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.204.188.208 (talk • contribs) — Possible single purpose account: 209.204.188.208 (talk • contribs) has made few or no other contributions outside this topic.
  • Delete per nom, Aaron. Also, Crockspot's diff suggests article will be a vandal magnet. CWC(talk) 11:24, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep Multiple verifiable sources per Jayron32. Page can be semi-protected if vandalism is a concern. Catchpole 11:34, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • emphatically, categorically, a STRONGKEEP This is a matter of preserving a historical record of a debate-- whether Andy will ultimately be proved correct or not is irrelevant to the argument. This isn't about whether Andy was right-- the thing is, eventually Andy became a story in his own right. That's why we have to preserve this. Period. (iandb1) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.34.2.39 (talk • contribs)
  • Comment Delete comments have been removed here, here by User:Blackbird71 who's only contributions are to this article, reverted to correct state by User:Dman727. Khukri (talk . contribs) 11:44, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Weak Keep per Jayron32. - Serpent-A 11:47, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Weak Delete as per Crockspot. Too much conspiracy theory and POV to make this article salvageable, and no sign of that changing. I feel this is one article where with the best intentions of any editor, it will descend in to unproven allegations. Khukri (talk . contribs) 12:02, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
Comment The anticipation that a controversial article will have POV edits is not grounds for deletion. Editors will doubtless have it on their watch list and NPOV statements can be negotiated in the Talk page, per the best practices of Wikipedia.Edison 19:59, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete per nom and per Crockspot, these anon comments are quite annoying as well. Perhaps if its ever proven that "conservatives" ... killed him then I will change my vote. --NuclearZer0 12:17, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
    • Why of course we killed him, right after we caused global warming and before we plotted to steal the 2006 elections.--WinOne4TheGipper 17:46, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete per above, I might change my vote to keep but rewrite if notability can be established (how close was the secretary of state election, did he generate a lot of mainstream media coverage, etc) GabrielF 13:52, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Strong Keep Ck4829 14:09, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete, fails WP:BIO, and all the sockpuppet/SPA votes aren't helping. NawlinWiki 14:22, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete, not seeing the notability. Keeping the article to "honor his memory and work" is not a valid reason to keep. The march of the meatpuppets on this article is shameful and Wikipedia does not put articles up to "honor" people, no matter how noble their causes.--Rosicrucian 14:50, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Strong Keep Andy's work, to have everyone the right to vote and to keep fraud from happening should be honored. Keep the page for his memory. --sakabatou19— Possible single purpose account: sakabatou19 (talk • contribs) has made few or no other contributions outside this topic.
  • STRONG KEEP Andy's work should be respected. This page is an honor to him. --Haruka3_2000— Possible single purpose account: Haruka3_2000 (talk • contribs) has made few or no other contributions outside this topic.
  • Strong keep Andy made a strong contribution with his work (refactor personal attack) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.115.31.179 (talk • contribs) — Possible single purpose account: 83.115.31.179 (talk • contribs) has made few or no other contributions outside this topic.
  • STRONG KEEP - I don't understand why it needs to be deleted. It should remain up in honor and respect for his hard work. It's also a memorial. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.176.16.234 (talk • contribs)
  • STRONG KEEP--Mr. Stephenson's work played a large part in preserving democracy. I can't understand why anyone would want to delete, as Andy worked for all of us----His life revolved around making sure ALL our votes are counted.---Booli—The preceding unsigned comment was added by BOOLI (talk • contribs) 14:59, 16 October 2006. — Possible single purpose account: BOOLI (talk • contribs) has made few or no other contributions outside this topic.

[edit] Arbitrary Page Break 1

  • STRONG KEEP - Absolutely notable. Is subject of a documentary film now in production by Michael Moore, Numerous press mentions while he was alive, radio and television interviews while he was alive including CNN and MSNBC. Was very active in the e-voting seminar circuit. And the circumstances of his death spawned three web sites, several press articles, and much radio discussion. (refactored personal attack) BenBurch 15:37, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Ben you are so hypocritical, remember when you went on your own little leftist purge on trying to delete the conservative underground page and the protest warrior page, leftist hypocrisy is truly disgusting—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 125.237.72.55 (talk • contribs) 18:46, 16 October 2006 (UTC).
  • Comment Which documentary? Moore's IMDB page only lists three films in production right now, and none of them seem to mention Andy Stephenson. The "Hacking Democracy" HBO film does not seem to be associated with Michael Moore.--Rosicrucian 15:55, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Not listed there. I have been cooperating with his production team on the project I refer to, which is on the subject the American medical services delivery system. BenBurch 16:10, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • So, Ben, you have also claimed that Conservative Underground will become notable when Sicko comes out, (also related to the Stephenson controversy). If you are using future mention in an upcoming film to prove notablility here, to be consistent, you would also have to apply the same standard to the Conservative Underground article, which at the time of the AfD, you did not. I believed you even mentioned at that time that CU would eventually become notable because of this film, and could then have an article on Wiki. So by your own previous arguments, this article should be recreated when and if Sicko makes him notable. Crockspot 20:19, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
  • So Stephenson is mentioned in Sicko? If so, do you have a reliable source that can be used to verify that? It can't really be included in the article on anecdotal evidence. Beyond that, if Sicko is the film you are referring to, Stephenson does not seem to be the primary focus as you implied.--Rosicrucian 16:13, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Nope, just my say-so. You can decide if you want to be embarrassed by having removed an article for a notable (but politically embarrassing for right wingers) individual who becomes even more notable upon the release of this film or not. Like all Michael Moore films, the documentary jumps from story to story to build a theme. Andy is one of those stories. People want to bury this story, but it isn't gonna happen. BenBurch 16:20, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Your "say-so," like anyone else's (yes, even mine), is not good enough, Ben. Jinxmchue 17:02, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Let's wait for the documentary then. This is an encyclopedia. We would rather be right than early and that includes whether or not an article should be kept. --Tbeatty 17:07, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete Seems be newsworthy and blogworthy, but doesn't meet encyclopedic level of notability. Deli nk 15:43, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep Especially per Jayron32, and why again was this nominated? That information took moments to find... · XP · 15:51, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete Andy who?—Preceding unsigned comment added by 135.214.154.104 (talk • contribs)
135.214.154.104 appears to be an open proxy. BenBurch 17:15, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
A whois lookup shows this is registered to Cingular Wireless as part of their dynamic range. Thus, while it is an anonymous IP and part of a dynamic range, I see no evidence it's an open proxy.--Rosicrucian 18:17, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Weak Keep Needs clean up and better sourcing ("a discussion forum post"? twice???). Jinxmchue 17:00, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • STRONG KEEP per BenBurch. Attempting to delete this article about a true American hero is an obvious Stalinist plot by neocons to whitewash Wikipedia of all reference to Republican vile crimes against humanity. PCock 17:10, 16 October 2006 (UTC)— PCock (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
  • We can assume good faith even in the face of evidence to the contrary, I suppose. Politically correct discussion is important, after all, while we are making an unperson out of somebody inconvenient. BenBurch 17:22, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • The reason for these rules is that they further civil discourse on Wikipedia, and ensure that people of differing PoVs can establish consensus. Casting aspersions about motives and making this into an emotional argument only raises the wikistress of all involved.--Rosicrucian 17:31, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • If I were you I would be taking this time to show notability, remove the unprovable conspiracy theories and add reliable sources. before this AfD reaches consensus (if it does). Not to be making assupmtions about the politcal beliefs of those who have voted on this article, in good faith I might add, and who have no interest in your war of words. Like on most AfD's I'm willing to be swayed, but slandering those who disagree with your viewpoint as Stalinists, knocks your chances. regards Khukri (talk . contribs) 17:38, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment No assumptions are being made - they're facts. Several the editors involved are part of what some consider to be a 'Conservative Hit Squad' here on Wiki. Crockspot, who is in constant contact with Tbeatty, nominated another researcher on voter fraud, Bev Harris, for speedy deletion on the same day. Two voter fraud investigators being nominated for deletion on the same day, by two proven activist conservative editors? [12] [13] NBGPWS 20:59, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment I recommend that the vote of any editor with less than 500 total edits to en.wikipedia be ignored. :o - Crockspot 17:24, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
    • actually, the standard for sockpuppets is 50 edits which would apply to almost all of the SPA accounts above.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Tbeatty (talk • contribs) 17:50, 16 October 2006 (UTC).
      • I know, I just dropped an extra 0 in there for the benefit of BenBurch. He has enjoyed putting high edit count bars on his past afd's, and I rather enjoy watching the steam come out of his ears. - Crockspot 17:57, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
    • I'm going to second this recommendation. It is quite obvious that there is now an influx of sockpuppet "votes" (most likely thanks to a post on the Democrat Underground - remember, DUers, this is not an actual vote where the majority wins) with ridiculous rants about "obvious Stalinist plot[s] by neocons to whitewash Wikipedia of all reference to Republican vile crimes against humanity." Jinxmchue 18:03, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
      • Comment: I have it on good authority that this AfD is going to be closed by a Diebold electronic voting machine! ZOMG!!!!111!1! --Aaron 19:36, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
    • An editor who makes a good argument based firmly upon our Wikipedia:Policies and guidelines will be counted, however new xe is. Equally, an editor whose argument is that "we must have a memorial" (contrary to our Wikipedia articles are not memorials policy) or whose argument is wholly based upon personal testimony about future events (contrary to our verifiability and Wikipedia is not a crystal ball policies) will not count, however many edits xe has. Uncle G 19:24, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep, properly cited article that establishes weak notability Valoem talk 18:22, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Arbitrary Page Break 2

  • Super Duper Strong Keep Great american heroes like Andy should be memorialized into stone, rather than washed down the memory hole of the Bush dictatorship. You people pushing for delete should be ashamed of yourselves. How can you sleep at night? It also possible that the people recommending delete were also part of fringe right that contributed to Andys death by denying him the funds for surgery, and now they wish to erase that stain on their soul.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 64.102.254.33 (talk • contribs) 19:21, 16 October 2006 (UTC).
  • I sleep very well on my Rovomatic Adjustable Bushbot Bed, given to me personally by KKKarl in payment for killing Andy. It's super duper comfy. - Crockspot 20:09, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Damn. Someone went and used the Super Duper on us. I guess the debate is over. Dman727 20:16, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete Wikipedia is not a memorial. Wildthing61476 19:43, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep The blogs are not strong sources for notability, but the article from the Seattle newspaper establishes most of the disputed statements about his work on showing hackability of electronic voting systems, and the circumstances of the interference with fundraising to pay for his final medical expenses. There is also a reference from a current HBO movie in which his contribution is documented. Notability rather than need for a memorial is a good basis for keeping the article.Edison 19:59, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete After sifting through this AFD and looking at references here and in the article, it's clear that the subject of this article has been the subject of some national media attention. But this does not automatically bestow the level of notability necessarily for inclusion in an encyclopedia. I don't see the media attention as signficant, or the newstory as much more than transitory. --Ed (Edgar181) 20:08, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • *STRONG KEEP* Andy is clearly notable as any thinking person would know. Attempts to delete this fine man are evidence of the hand of Rove at work. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.159.148.121 (talk • contribs)
  • Comment if you cannot explain why Andy Stephenson is notable, or reference your vote to another editor who you agree with, then no he is not "clearly notable" for the purposes of this AfD.--Rosicrucian 20:38, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Weak keep per Jayron32. The HBO movie is a good enough claim of notability for me. However, this needs cleanup and better sources, blogs and web forums aren't usually good sources. BryanG(talk) 20:44, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Just out of curiosity, would it matter to you if he was the subject of the movie, or just got a passing mention in it? It might matter to me and change my vote from delete to keep, if he was the subject of the movie; but that doesn't seem to be the case based on the reference in the article. Deli nk 20:55, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
Probably not, the question of how much he's in the movie (which doesn't come out until next month, I believe) is why my !vote was weak in the first place. BryanG(talk) 21:06, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
I would not. Personally I've been mentioned in a few newspaper articles and even was referenced in a documentary several years ago. However Im far from noteable. I don't believe that anecdotal references in media are equivalant to being noteworthy. Dman727 21:25, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • comment I still support a keep for this article, but the whitewash being attempted here is NOT helping the cause. Merely yelling that he is worthy is NOT the way to get the article kept. Even if hundreds of people came down on the side of this subject's sainthood, it does NOT make the subject worthy. CITE SOURCES. NATIONAL MEDIA. RESPECTED THIRD PARTY INFO. That sort of thing. Now I did my part finding stuff on a guy I frankly couldn't give two s&!#$ about. If all you people are SO hell bent on getting the article kept, do the research, cite respected sources, rewrite the article, and make it up to standard. Otherwise, just let it go. All you are going to do is cause the admins here to delete and protect the article from ever being recreated, which would not serve your purposes. Also, WikiPedia is built on community concensus. Become an active part of the community if you want your opinions to be recognized. Merely getting 100 random anonymous people to spam this AfD with requests to keep will NOT make it happen. --Jayron32 20:53, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment I ask that the nominator, Tbeatty, document his assertion. "One of the reasons that notability requirements are in place is to give privacy to friends and family of the deceased." If true, hundreds of articles on people with backgrounds as varied as Polly Klaas and Jerry Garcia may need deletion as mentioning their untimely and tragic deaths 'violates their family's privacy rights'. NBGPWS 21:15, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment We seem to have been visited by some sock puppets posting lampoons of how they think a DUer would respond to this topic... Not sure if it is an attempt at humor or an attempt to discredit those who support KEEP. BenBurch 21:20, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • No, they are dead on as to how DUers are responding to this topic. All one needs to do for proof of this is read the Democrat Underground thread[14] that brought you all here. Jinxmchue 21:34, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
I was brought here by my watchlist... BenBurch 22:24, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
Alright. More coincidence, I guess. Jinxmchue
  • That's kind of funny. I thought the same thing, except that I thought you were one of the lampooners with your original Stalinist comment.[15]  :) --Ed (Edgar181) 23:05, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment I ask an investigation be started into the strange 'coincidence' of two of the best-known voter fraud investigators being nominated for deletion on the same day, by two well-known conservative activist Wiki editors, three weeks before national elections where voting fraud is a major concern! [16] [17] NBGPWS 21:31, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • If you have a dispute, that is a matter for dispute resolution rather than requesting an investigation while in the middle of an AfD.--Rosicrucian 21:36, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • I think your time would be better spent researching and improving these articles to keep them on Wiki than to worrying about some imagined "Vast-Ring Wing Conspiracy" designed to cover up imagined voter fraud. Jinxmchue 21:45, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Nothing 'imagined' about this orchestrated effort to purge info by activist Conservative editors:
"Someone removed your prod from the Andy Stephenson article. You'll have to do an AfD. Crockspot 04:35, 16 October 2006 (UTC):Done. --Tbeatty 04:46, 16 October 2006 (UTC)Andy Stephenson deletion discussion is --Tbeatty 04:57, 16 October 2006 (UTC) Check out the diff I posted on the AfD for a good snort. Crockspot 05:01, 16 October 2006 (UTC)"
NBGPWS 23:50, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
So what exactly is the conspiracy? I "prod"ed the article prior to AfD. (if you don't know what "prod" is, go find it). He let me know that the "prod" failed. AfD is the next step. --Tbeatty 23:57, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
Sure - it's just sheer coincidence that two MAJOR reseachers into voting fraud got nominated for deletion for non-notability by you two on the SAME DAY. Out of the THOUSANDS of questionable articles, you chose those two to nominate for deletion. No agenda there! [18] [19] NBGPWS 00:56, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
Hmm... let's think how else we could explain this while still assuming good faith... maybe, just maybe, those two people happen to read articles about political figures and voting because of their interest in the subject, and noticed that these two articles merited afd'ing? --tjstrf 01:00, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
Smearing editors and accusing them of having an agenda is not what AfD is for. Again, if you wish to pursue this, follow the steps of dispute resolution.--Rosicrucian 01:02, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
Oh Cool. I didn't know Bev Harris was up for AfD. But since the proposals in the history were speedy and prod (both non-voting deletion processes) I will have to wait for the full-blown AfD. Thanks for the heads-up though so I can add Bev Harris to my watchlist. --Tbeatty 07:48, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
  • See, that's one thing about having an online encyclopedia that anyone can edit. People's biases can and do affect it. Have you been a paragon of neutrality? I certainly doubt it. Even I have had times where I have not been entirely neutral about topics. And that's where another thing about having an online encyclopedia that anyone can edit comes in. Other people can have a say in it and balance out things. Compromise is important here. As far as your accusations go, I would suggest you drop them as they are unprovable and inflammatory. They will result in nothing but back and forth sniping and bad feelings. Jayron32 and others have improved the article considerably since it was nominated for deletion. Why didn't you do anything to improve it? That would've been considerably more helpful to your cause than making these ridiculous accusations. Jinxmchue 14:20, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
  • First, allow me to express how delighted and honored I am to be referred to as a "well-known conservative activist Wiki editor". My father is smiling in Heaven. Second, I inserted a {{prod-bio}} into Bev Harris mainly because I knew (refactored personal attack) , but it certainly helped that the article did not assert Ms. Harris' notability, and was very nearly unsourced. I didn't discuss it or coordinate it with anyone else. The person who removed my tag has done some improvement, so in the end, it was a positive move. Third, I welcome any investigation. I am protected by Teh Hand of Rove, and your Fitz are belong to us. - Crockspot 03:40, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
  • comment the existance of sockpuppets or strawmen in support of or opposed to this article has NO BEARING on its inherent notability. The identity or political leanings of people involved in either the nomination or the debate have NO BEARING on the the subjects notability. Does the subject show up in the national press/media? Is the subject notable for the things they show up for? If yes, the subject should stay; and probably be protected from anon edits given the level of controversy. If no, the subject should be deleted, and also be protected from recreation. Either way, the personalities of the editors involved in these discussion should have NO BEARING on the results of said discussions. --Jayron32 21:39, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep It appears that there are adquate references which are verifiable and reliable to establish Stephenson's notability for his work regarding the weaknesses of "black box" voting and his running for secretary of state of Washington.Kitty Hammond 22:01, 16 October 2006 (UTC)— Possible single purpose account: Kitty Hammond (talk • contribs) has made few or no other contributions outside this topic.

[edit] Arbitrary Page Break 3

  • Merge, against inclusion in Wikipedia He may merit mention in a relavent article on the subject of electronic voting fraud. The individual himself is not notable. (note to closing admin: this !vote has a very specific title because I wish it to be treated in a specific manner during the closing. In other words, this merge should not be counted as a psuedo-keep.) --tjstrf 22:53, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete The most notable thing about him is the conspiracy theory, which is completely unverifiable. Rumors, conspiracy and inuendo do not belong in an encyclopedia. Resolute 23:28, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
    Really? MORE than half of the Vince Foster article is about the kooky right wing barking moonbat conspiracy theories that Clinton had Foster killed! NBGPWS 00:31, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Then go edit the Vince Foster article. If you feel that another article needs work, then by all means take it on! However other article have nothing to do with this particle article.Dman727 01:07, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Unlike this article's theories about Stephenson's death, the theories about Foster's death are at least well-sourced. Additionally, talk of Foster's death was widespread at the time. The theories about Stephenson's death are limited to far-left forums like DU. Jinxmchue 14:01, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
  • When Stephenson gets two independant counsels to investigate his death, I will be the first to vote Keep. Even if there is no conspiracy. --Tbeatty 01:49, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment. I did some minor searching on Stephensons candidacy for Secretary of State. It appears to be unnoteworthy and Stephenson did not garner any signifant percentage of vote.[20]12.159.148.121
Given that I do not find his duties at BBV noteworthy, nor his candidacy, I've revised my opinion to Strong Delete Dman727 01:58, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment. The website you are linking to contains General Election results, not Primary. Keep in mind Stephenson ran as a Democrat, and dropped out on June 26, 2004 (presumably around the time of the primaries), although I don't know if that was before or after the Primary, or what percentage of the vote he earned.

I stand by my "Strong Keep", but I believe now more than ever the article badly needs a NPOV, as well as some locks to dissuade right and left-wingers (and their sockpuppets) from vandalizing it. It's also worth mentioning that a friend and supporter of his, William Rivers Pitt, publicly called into question the operation and circumstances of his death. Stephenson's SOS candidacy, the HBO documentary and the presence of his name and activism in notable news sources convinces me that this should still be kept. But some drastic measures need to be in place so that this page (and perhaps other political pages as well) is protected from extremist vandals, whether they frequent DU, FR or any other blog or message board. ChildOfTheMoon83 03:07, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

As a journalist, I thought the situation that Stephenson was experiencing with regard to those who hassled him on his deathbed was curious enough to devote an entire article on it See http://www.coastalpost.com/05/06/01.html I personally spoke with Peter Angelos and he confirmed that he used his influence to help make Stephenson's cutting edge pancreas operation at Johns Hopkins Med Center a reality. I think that Andy Stephenson was and will always be one of the voices for truth, at a time when the mainstream media would not know truth if it came up and bit them on their butt. If Vince Foster has a wikipedia entry, and he is only mourned at this point by his family, then Andy Stephenson should have an entry - he is mourned by his family of thousands of voting activists across the country. When I originall y posted the story at my newspaper, I truly believed that the right wing cabal had influenced PayPal to withhold the needed funds. Since then I have learned that that version of PayPal did that to many of its subscribers - they withheld monies probably just to have the interest on the funds. EBay has since acquired PayPal and it now operates in a more legitimate manner. Currently Stephenson will be honored with mention in a HBO documentary on the election process in the day of electronic machinery. He is also someone that Dorothy Faddiman focuses on in her documentary "Stealing America". The Coastal Post comes out once a month in hard copy that is sent to 18,000 subscribers in Marin County, California. It also is on the web. I own all copy that I write, once it is out and on the newstand. My opinion is to StrongKeep —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 12.218.153.212 (talk • contribs) . — Possible single purpose account: 12.218.153.212 (talk • contribs) has made few or no other contributions outside this topic.

  • comment I don't expect the previous contributor to return, since he is not a regular editor, and is only here to make this singular plea. I will still make these comments for anyone who cares to read them since they bear clarification over why the above arguement, while obviously heart felt does NOT MAKE A STRONG KEEP CASE. Comparing the Vince Foster article to this one does NOT do the keep side justice. Articles are not kept on the merits of the relative goodness of the subject, ONLY on the relative notability and verifiability of the information in the article. Idi Amin is not missed by many people, while my Grandmother was really one of the nicest people I have ever met. No one would claim that my grandmother needs an article more than does Idi Amin. Simply argueing that because Foster was not well liked, while Andy Stephenson was a true patriot does NOT have any bearing on whether one should be kept and the other deleted. A quick perusal of the Vince Foster article indicates that it is HEAVILY referenced to NATIONAL MEDIA sources. Now, if you will note, I have voted and am still voting keep. I may even (if I have the time) try to improve the article. But to all of you people who claim to know and care about Andy Stephenson (and honestly, I could give a flying f^(& about him) if you want to keep the article, FIND REFERNCES and IMPROVE THE ARTICLE so it will meet the already well-established standards. You could do no better than to look at the Vince Foster article and seeing how it is done there, since that is an EXCELLENTLY SOURCED article. --Jayron32 03:42, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
  • comment A quick perusal of the article you referenced at length should have provided you adequate evidence that the author, Carol Sterritt, is a she, not a he as you wrote. (unless you happen to know this particular Carol to be a man like Carol O'Connor) NBGPWS 04:17, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
  • reply Fine, its written by a she. I never assigned a gender to the author. I DID assign a gender to Mr. Foster, who I believe still qualifies as a he. --Jayron32 04:27, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Coincidentally, a different anon editor invoked the Foster article on my talk page today. I, too, pointed out the vast divide in the quality of the sourcing between the articles. Part of the problem is that the controversy surrounding Andy was largely played out on blogs, which are, at best, sometimes allowed as primary sources only. The few secondary sources (I'm thinking of the Ferrari article), are not accurate, in my opinion, and based upon posts of hers that I read at the time. How do you reliably source such a thing? I don't think you can. Crockspot 04:01, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Fixed the article Well, I did my best. Check out the article now. For extensive explanation of my fixes,. please see the talk page where I explain my fixes and rationale. It should be up to WikiPedia standards from the WP:MOS to a point. Its still really stubby, but the article should have enough verifiable references to allow it to be kept, as long as the DU people don't ruin it by mucking the article up again (if they really are his supporters, why not play by the rules and try to get the article kept???) --Jayron32 04:27, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
Please assume good faith' and don't bite the newbies. "only here to make this singular plea." is assuming good faith only if a new editor stated that was his intention. I expect a number of Wikipedia editors were drawn here by a desire to edit one article and went on to edit thousands, just as voters are lured to register to vote by one wedge issue but go on voting.Edison 06:12, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
You are right. I make an unqualified apology. I do hope that all of these people who commented do stay and learn to become good WikiPedia editors. It would be unfortunate if their only exposure to WikiPedia editing is through this highly controversial topic. They all seem to have something to add to the topic, and I only wish they would do so in a way that was more constructive and actually improved the article in question, or added to this debate in a meaningful way. However, I do admit that the comment you note was in bad taste on my part, and I retract it. --Jayron32 06:23, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Not notable - it is now well sourced and the pure fiction has been removed. But he is still not a notable person. He isn't extensively published (notability for a journalist) and he doesn't have multiple mainstream media coverage (notability for an activist). Tbeatty 04:46, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
  • reply Fair enough. The HBO documentary and Seattle Weekly citations do provide the mainstream portion. Multiple is weak, I will admit (OK, its only 2). But I have given the articles supporters a head start. Surely all those people who know and love the subject so much have references at the ready (CNN, NYTimes, Newsweek, or even widely read local papers) and can continue the work I have done. If not, though I still vote keep, it may be beyond my help at this point. --Jayron32 05:01, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
  • In the article I see 3 articles in West Coast local papers, 1 each in the New York Times, the Washington Post and The Guardian (London), one story on Fox News plus an HBO movie. Several of these mention his national campaigning for voter verified paper trails and his Secretary of State candidacy. Pretty impressive notability compared to many WP bio articles. Edison 07:08, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
  • There are other articles on electronic voting. It seems a mention in those would be adequate and deserving. Maybe Black Box Voting?. --Tbeatty 05:05, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment to closing admin: When considering Tbeatty comments, please note their contribution history. POV/advocacy warrior for right wing American political activism. · XP · 08:20, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment to closing admin:I wholeheartedly concur with the above comments by XP. A look at Tbeatty's contributions on Wiki will find his activity almost exclusively limited to highly charged political topics. NBGPWS 08:50, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment to closing admin: True or not, that has nothing to do with the arguments he presents here and should not discolour your evaluation of the debate. --tjstrf 09:00, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
  • You are more than welcome to file an RfC or ArbCom if you feel that strongly about it. You may also take your complaints to my talk page or any of the admin noticeboards if you wish. But commenting here is not appropriate and I have warned you on your talk page to AGF. --Tbeatty 09:08, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
  • You should hit them both with {{npa3}} or {{npa4}} tags. Such statements are direct and blatant violations of WP:NPA (which is policy, not a suggestion.) --Aaron 16:16, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Please quit refactoring people's comments that aren't personal attacks. That could be viewed as censorship, or worse. Don't you support 'freedom of speech'? NBGPWS 09:37, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Arbitrary Page Break 4

  • comment This is one of the WORST bad faith nominations I've ever seen. HBO's 'Hacking Democracy', which prominently features Andy Stephenson debuts Nov 2. [21] That ALONE established notability. Also, the nominator's justification is fallicious on two counts, and should be ruled as such. Andy was not primarily known as 'journalist' as the nominator claimed, but as an activist. The nominator has also failed to defend his claim that "notability requirements are in place is to give privacy to friends and family of the deceased." If that were true NO individual who died prematurely and/or tragically would have the circumstances of their death discussed. No info surrounding the deaths of Curt Cobain, Polly Klaas, Jerry Garcia or HUNDREDS of other persons could be discussed if Wiki were to follow this anomalous and aberrant line of reasoning. NBGPWS 06:38, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment He is non-notable. You cite the HBO synopsis of the Bev Harris HBO program. Stephenson is mentioned once alongside the non-notable Susan Bernecker, Kathleen Wynne (Cleveland), Hugh Thompson (Security Innovations), Ion Sancho and Harri Hursti. All of whom are MORE notable than Stephenson and also lack the notability to be in Wikipedia (all red lines at the time of this post). Second, the logic you've applied is backward. The Notability Standard, which Stephenson fails, is in place to protect non-notable people from the public spotlight. All the persons you mentioned are Notable. Stephenson is not. And third, to be notable as a journalist one must have received multiple awards for journalism. To be notable in general, he needs multiple writeups in major publications for multiple events. He does not have that. He is in the paper for one thing: Black Box Voting. Most of the articles (i.e. the Guardian) are opinion pieces. The hard news items are almost exclusively local writeups about the single topic of black box voting. His obit seems excusively local. That does not make him notable enough for Wikipedia inclusion. Black Box Voting has an article in Wikipedia and anything relevant about Stephenson can be included there. Please stop casting aspersions on the motivation for the AfD. It is a form of personal attack. --Tbeatty 07:32, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
USER Tbeatty When are you going to defend, or retract your assertion that: "notability requirements are in place is to give privacy to friends and family of the deceased."? NBGPWS 08:39, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
I already have but you can see Jimbo's response to a similiar question. In that case, the hubsand of a non-notable person asked that her bio be deleted. A user made a similiar assertion to what you are making. --Tbeatty 09:04, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

So now YOU are speaking on behalf of Andy's family and are claiming that they don't want his death discussed - or you just PRESUME this by extrapolating from the TOTALLY different situation involving the staffer of Joe Scarborough who was found dead, and her surving husband's express wishes that her death not be discussed? Which is it? NBGPWS 09:32, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

I've never claimed any such thing nor is your false choice ever been supported. I said One of the reasons that notability requirements are in place is to give privacy to friends and family of the deceased. That's it. It's a simple truth. Stephenson is non-notable. Being a non-notable person affords him and his family a level of privacy from scurilous charges about fraud and fake deaths being repeated on Wikipedia. Further, the notability requirements of Wikipedia should keep him completely anonymous except for perhaps a passing reference in Black Box Voting.--Tbeatty 09:40, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
"To be notable in general, he needs multiple writeups in major publications for multiple events." Incorrect, and misleading. If this was the case, we would have no article on John Mark Karr or other "one hit media wonders". Every write up was due to one thing: his made up confession. You are mistaken. · XP · 08:17, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
No, I don't think so. I doubt John Mark Karr will survive AfD once the newsiness dies down. Unless he is charged or convicted of a crime, he is non-notable and he will not be in Wikipedia for long. But of course, this AfD is about the non-notableness of Stephenson, not Karr. --Tbeatty 08:38, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Comments:
  1. We would, of course, merge useful info (mostly refs) into Black Box Voting.
  2. Barring some investigative reporting by a reliable journalist, Wikipedia's ban on original research means all we can say about the poor guy's death is "some people claimed X but other people claimed Y", which will satisfy very few people.
CWC(talk) 08:20, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

Comment to Tbeatty: Please show me where in WP:Notability People you find evidence of policy supporting your claim: "One of the reasons that notability requirements are in place is to give privacy to friends and family of the deceased." Wikipedia:Notability people NBGPWS 13:44, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

Comment to NBGPWS This is in WP:NOT however: Memorials. Wikipedia is not the place to honor departed friends and relatives. Subjects of encyclopedia articles must have a claim to fame besides being fondly remembered.. Wildthing61476 13:54, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
Multiple MSM mentions, plus 19,500 Ghits for "Andy Stephenson" + voting, plus HBO documentary = Notability. NBGPWS 14:10, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment This is an AfD. This is about whether this article is encyclopedic and notable by Wikipedia's standards. There is no standard by which we can judge whether this is a "good faith" or "bad faith" nomination, nor should we, because Wikipedia requests that we assume good faith and avoid personal attacks. I'm noticing a distinct lack of civility in this discussion, and the closing admin will likely note that as well. This is not about Tbeatty, Crockspot, or anyone else and their political affiliations. That is irrelevant to the discussion at hand, and if you feel they are conducting a purge of articles based off of their PoV, this is not the place to address that. Those involved have repeatedly been admonished to take their dispute through the standard resolution process and have persisted in carrying on said dispute on this AfD's page. I just want to state to all involved that you need to take this to talkpages, RfC, ArbCom, or really anywhere but here. If this continues here I will post a request to the Administrators' Noticeboard to end it the hard way.--Rosicrucian 15:23, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
    • Second I would like to reiterate Rosicrusians point. The notability of the subject is INDEPENDANT of the political activism, political positions, rudeness, bad faith, or any other fact about any editor here or anywhere else. Either he is notable or he is not. Provide evidence to support your view, and leave it at that. Opinion or evidence of perceived wrongdoing by another editor does NOT have ANY bearing on the article at hand or this AfD and should be left to other venues at WikiPedia, such as talk pages or RfCs. Such discussions should not be carried on here. --Jayron32 18:55, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete, the article doesn't demonstrate a level of notability. The material the person has written may be relevant in some articles, and the person may be worth mentioning in short somewhere, but I don't believe the subject warrants an article of its own.
    First of all, this deletion debate's journey started with the wrong foot - every time someone posts "hey, everybody, vote for/against deletion" in some forum, the whole debate gets rickety. Consider this from my point of view: I'm uncaffeinated enough to not be able to read the above discussions; AfD is supposed to be a simple place to follow. A pre-emptive hug of consolation to whoever admin has to close this mess!
    That said, I need to evaluate the current state of the article: Okay, so here we have a journalist... who has done some mudslinging at voting machines... and failed to get elected to an office... and died. In my opinion, that doesn't yet pass the "more important than average professor" gut feeling, even if you have media mentions and like. There's lots of journalists in this world, there's lots of prominent electronic voting critics. There's a whole bunch of also-ran election candidates, who have consistently been deemed nonnotable (for that merit alone, barring other claims of fame) in Wikipedia. Lacking these, this is more of a merge material or something completely forgettable. --wwwwolf (barks/growls) 15:53, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
    • For the clarity, the "prof test" is at WP:PROF. My point is that if there were similar test for journalists, this person wouldn't pass it. --wwwwolf (barks/growls) 15:56, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep. Not sure what all the fuss is about here. The article is abundantly sourced and the ample sources substantiate sufficient notability. Gamaliel 16:50, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep. Per WP:BIO, "the person has been the primary subject of multiple non-trivial published works whose source is independent of the person." I'm not a fan of the political ideals that Stephenson promoted, and I find Democratic Underground to be a rich source of unintended humor, but what I like least of all is when people can't resist dragging politics into Wikipedia. Stephenson plainly meets WP:BIO, the good faith of many of the voters here both pro- and con- is plainly questionable, this article should never have been nominated for deletion, and it should be kept. VoiceOfReason 17:07, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment Where has he been the primary subject? --Tbeatty 17:49, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment Here, for one. Look, if you'll check my history you'll find that I've started more than my share of AfDs, and though you won't see it in my history I've been responsible for quite a few speedy deletions and successful prods. I don't like seeing garbage cluttering the encyclopedia. I'm all for uncontroversial deletions. But when there's any doubt, as there certainly is here, I have a very strong bias in favor of keep; it doesn't really hurt anything to leave the article in place and I am certain that a number of people, learning about Stephenson from other sources, have visited Wikipedia to get more information on him. The activities of Stephenson during his life and the major Internet controversy surrounding his last days are more than sufficient to make him notable. Yeah, his politics were kind of silly and his "research" into voting methods highly questionable, but politics does not belong here. I reiterate my opinion that this article should clearly be kept. VoiceOfReason 18:06, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Additional comment The article may very well fail WP:NPOV, but the remedy for that is rewrite, not deletion. VoiceOfReason 18:08, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
  • I actually agree with you about the politics, that's why I put this up for deletion. There is no reason to bring the internet controversy to wikipedia and that is what was happening. Black Box Voting is notable and he certainly is a part of that. But a human interest writeup in Seattle Weekly is hardly noteworthy as meeting the inclusion criteria for WP and that's my problem with this entry. As you have seen from the multiple SPA writeups, this article has become a memorial to an otherwise non-notable person. I listed the six or so other people on the upcoming HBO show that are also non-notable (as is the show) but the topic IS notable and that is where they deserve mention. One article: Black Box Voting --Tbeatty 18:14, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment He spent years travelling around the country as an activist and specialist or expert on security flaws of black box voting. He was written up and quoted in numerous newspaper of international circulation. He testified at numerous hearings on machine certification. The campaign against him by right-wing blogs was documented in newspapers. This is all besides many thousands of internet mentions in sites concerned with verified voting.Edison 18:32, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
  • reply Please provide citations to his testimony. If he testified, a record exists. Please find references to say so. Also, if the campaign to smear him was mentioned in newspapers, please cite those papers. Also, see my additional comments below --Jayron32 18:55, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment The "campaign against him by right-wing blogs" that "was documented in newspapers" is the part I have a problem with. Ferrari's claims in a newspaper are completely different than Ferrari's claims on blogs. She was documenting what was going on in real time on the blogs, but months later, she suddenly is telling newspapers completely contradictory information. The info in the newspaper article cannot be independently verified, but it can be debunked by Ferrari's own statements on blogs. Of course, blogs are not reliable sources, though her statements on them might be usable as primary sources. The article as it looks right now is not too bad, and I am ALMOST inclined to switch to a keep, but I cannot be assured that the smear campaign that existed when this article was first nominated will not return, therefore, I am holding firm on my delete vote. If you want to look at a pretty good archive of all the blog activity during the event, check out the www.scamdy.com forums. They captured everything relevant there. Crockspot 18:43, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment It looks like someone has added more references. The subject's involvement in the electronic voting debate has been referenced to the following respected sources now: the aforementions Seattle Weekly and HBO citations; FoxNews, who quotes his opinion in the field of electronic voting machines and fraud; the Seattle Times, which quotes both him and Bev Harris repeatedly with regard to the use of electronic voting in a specific Washington state election; The Guardian, a British newspaper, calls him an expert and cites both him and Bev Harris WRT their work on the Diebold machines specifically and specifically applies their work to potential problems in the U.K. (establishing international relevance); The Washington Post has much of the same as well. These sources establish the notability of the "Black Box Voting" organization, and clearly establish both Andy Stephenson and Bev Harris as co-equally notable in the topic as well. The fact that Ms. Harris does not have an article yet does not mean she is not notable; indeed I am certain it will be remedied soon. What more burden of verifiability do you place on this subject? These are not just Op-Ed pieces or articles by friends of the subject. RELIABLE sources cite his work in the field, and The Guardian even uses the word "expert" specifically to refer to him... --Jayron32 18:55, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Redirect and merge verified material to Black Box Voting or Delete as failing WP:BIO. The relevant standard is WP:BIO. He won't meet the "widely recognized contribution that is part of the enduring historical record in their specific field" test, because the contribution, which may or may not enter the enduring historical record was Black Box Voting's, not his, and he did not lead the organization. A failed candidacy is not a basis of notability by Wikipedia standards. He fails the "primary subject of multiple non-trivial published works whose source is independent of the person" test by not being a primary subject of anything in a reliable source except his obituary. (The result on this test could change in the future, but not by blog posts about him.) He doesn't meet the "achieving renown or notoriety for their involvement in newsworthy events" test because the reliable sources continued to need to explain who he is (mostly associate director of BBV) every time they mention him. I appreciate the effort by Jayron32 to clean-up the article. GRBerry 18:49, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
    • reply now that is a reasonable arguement. I respectfully disagree; but that is the tone that should be taken on AfD. Also, Edison has made significant contributions; and there are others. I still posit that the additions make him notable. They also make the subjects of Bev Harris and Black Box Voting notable as well. --Jayron32 18:55, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
Comment The fact the Bev was the director and he was the associate director in no way prevents him having an article in relation to his activities in the organization. Scott Palmer is Dennis Hastert's assistant and he has his own article. Stephenson has well established notability in his own right. If he is in the news, the fact that he was for a time part of the Black Box Voting organization does not somehow transfer all his notability to that organization and prevent an article about him. Edison 19:26, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
Comment The term "smear campaign" is ambiguous in these discussions. To some it means that Freepers and others alleged that he was not sick, didn't have cancer, didn't need the money for an operation, and that he was just looking for money for personal use in general. Scamdy reports calls to the hospital and to the supposed surgeon, who could not legally release any info to outsiders in any event. The Scamdy website is self documenting with posts made blogs denying that he legitimately needed money for an operation and that he was gravely ill. It is also described in the Seattle paper articles. To others "smear campaign" means the claim made in 2005 that the aforementioned right-wing campaign caused his death by preventing the hospital getting the money in time for an operation to be done around March 10, which is not well documented. He had an operation toward the end of May and subsequently died. This was apparently disputed for some time. What part of that is POV?Edison 19:41, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Weak Keep per VoiceOfReason. Weak because just scrolling through this flamewar was an effort, so I can't honestly claim to have read all of it. Maybe there were even more brilliant arguments that I just didn't read. Can't people restrain themselves to, oh, 5 paragraphs each or so? Please? AnonEMouse (squeak) 20:17, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
  • comment The existence of the website and forum Scamdy a forum with over a dozen subforums - specifically focused on discussing Andy's life, death and the controversies surrounding both - which claims that one subforum alone was read over 750,000 times - provides even more evidence of the notability of Andy's life and death. NBGPWS 20:20, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
  • The forum does not appear to be evidence of notability at all. The forum has less than 2500 posts, whereas many web forums can claim that many posts for a single user. You're really reaching here.--Rosicrucian 22:16, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
  • I disagree. Forums specifically devoted to discussing the lives of others from a critical point of view, like the forums discussing Keith Olbermann, Rush Limbaugh, etc, exist because those people are notable. If Andy and his work weren't notable, they wouldn't have started an ENTIRE FORUM about him. NBGPWS 22:35, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Anybody can start a webforum. It's not hard. These days they're the equivalent of having a Geocities site. Everybody and their brother has one. With very short notice one could be started on any topic you could name.--Rosicrucian 22:53, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
  • You're wrong. Neither my brother nor I have forums about us, or anybody else.NBGPWS 00:19, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Now you're just being intentionally obtuse. The point is that a web forum is not evidence of notability. A web forum with an extremely low post-count as web forums go is even less compelling in an argument for notability. You are grasping at straws.--Rosicrucian 00:35, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Remember to comment on content, not on the contributor. Thank you. NBGPWS 03:10, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
  • The content is that you are purposefully ignoring the point. I have cast no aspersions about the contributor other than that your argument in this case is nonsensical.--Rosicrucian 03:36, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete per wwwwolf. Not reading all this discussion, just the article, there's no compelling evidence of notability at the WP:BIO level. Sandstein 20:32, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep because he achieved notability among a small subset of the online community, if nowhere else. Also, I would advise user NBGPWS to refrain from any tagential outbursts and stick to the subject under discussion. Ruthfulbarbarity 22:08, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Notability among a small subset of the online community is not encyclopedic notability. It's not even close.--Rosicrucian 22:17, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment Not exclusively the online community. I think there were a few articles devoted to the controversy in alternative newspapers-although I could be mistaken-but yes, most of the publicity surrounding him was generated by large online communities, e.g. DailyKos, Democratic Underground, Free Republic, etc... I'm not going to argue vociferously against this article's deletion, because I don't think he is that notable, but I'm simply expressing my belief that he is of minor notability at least. Ruthfulbarbarity 22:57, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
  • I'm mainly just arguing back that said "minor notability" as you describe it doesn't seem to correlate very well with WP:BIO and the standards it applies.--Rosicrucian 23:02, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
  • comment I see that the article is once again pushing false claims about the freezing of funds prior to Andy's surgery. I retract my earlier statement that implied that I was teetering on my delete vote. Crockspot 14:20, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
    • reply I removed unreferenced statements. Everything in there is now verifiable. --Jayron32 20:33, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete I spotted this nomination in AfD earlier on and was not sure on its status and decided not to just throw in a "vote" either way (hence, assuming good faith). The article did have references, and the subject "appeared" as a possible keeper in Wiki. Both sides of this debate have made good points, but wwwwolf’s input is the most convincing of the article and I agree with those points mentioned. Delete as nominated. JungleCat talk/contrib 14:45, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Response to wwwolf's comments I think wwwolf has made one of the best delete arguements here, but I would like to counter it with some points. 1) He seems to figure prominently in the upcoming HBO documentary "Hacking Democracy" He is not the sole subject; but its not a biopic, it is about the entire topic, and other sites attest to his recognized expertise in that topic. 2) Several sources have specifically cited him for his work, and quote him specifically with regards to his work, or even call him an expert (The Guardian reference, for one example). He meets primary notability criteria: He's referenced in several reputable sources in a non-trivial way. 3) His notability is not necessarily as a journalist per se but as an activist. As an activist, he is certainly significantly more notable than the average activist. His appearence in several reputable sources in a non-trivial manner attests to that --Jayron32 20:33, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep. I agree with CWC that the article is something of a vandal magnet, but so is George W. Bush. Vandalism and NPOV problems are reasons for patrolling, not deleting. JamesMLane t c 23:17, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
Comment Everybody pretty much talked out? No consensus for deletion, as evidenced by the extent of discussion here.Edison 04:22, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
Second I second that motion. Here here... --Jayron32 04:26, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
Comment That is not our decision to make here. JungleCat talk/contrib 05:23, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
Correct. The only real way to get this closed early would be to invoke WP:SNOW, but that clearly doesn't apply here.--Rosicrucian 16:11, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
Correct, with obvious discussion and disagreement above, plus solitiations of outsiders to come here, this will stay open until a closing admin decides 1) which arguments from Wikipedia policy are stronger and 2) who they are going to choose to disenfranchise as not being an established editor. Plus, AFD runs for five days (plus however longer it takes the admins to get to it and decide the right answer - obvious closes generally close close to on time, things like this usually take longer). Then after that, somebody will decide the admin got the closure wrong, and it will go to deletion review. I can spell the deletion review coming on this already, and am not looking forward to it. GRBerry 16:39, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Weak Delete. While there are a lot of references, the article does not appear to show that this person was notable. Vegaswikian 21:06, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Weak Keep. It is on the borderline of notability, but I'm going to go with the benifit of the doubt. 11kowrom 01:32, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep. i did some googling on this one. he is mentioned quite a few times in the nationwide mainstream media in his role as associate director of black box voting and also as candidate for office. he also has some coverage specifically on him via seattle weekly. while hardly overwhelmingly notable, this seems enough to me to keep around. it's also worth noting that this nom is part of a concerted AFD campaign, which i find extremely irritating on principle. Derex 04:56, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete A mess of an article for a minor figure. Piuro 18:00, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete Barely notable figure whose barely notable status will only last a short time before he's likely forgotten. --Strothra 22:32, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete as per nom. Torturous Devastating Cudgel 17:58, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete per nom, oh, and let's cut the votes please, this is a !vote -- Tawker 03:53, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
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The result was keep. --Coredesat 06:41, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] List of fictional monkeys and List of fictional apes

I don't...know...what to say, really. These are pure indiscriminate lists; many, many, many, many fictional works have monkey or ape characters. These lists will never be usefully complete, and they'll never be useful for anything. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 05:50, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

  • Keep. I don't see anything wrong with monkeys+apes (or any of the other fictional animal lists). They are informative to people. Many lists on here aren't complete (and probably never will be), so that's no excuse or reason to afd it. Just because you hate it, doesn't justify the AFD. RobJ1981 05:57, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
    Who said anything about hating it? It's just so hopelessly broad as to be nothing but amusing trivia. Amusing trivia is amusing, true, but WP:ILIKEIT doesn't trump WP:NOT. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 06:04, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep. I found this page really useful when looking for a thing I forgot about His Dark Materials.
  • Keep. If the monkeys themselves are notable enough to have articles, why would a list of these articles be inappropriate? If the monkeys aren't notable, delete the monkey articles, but if there are a large number of notable fictional monkeys, the list could be useful for someone who needs some examples of how monkeys are portrayed in fiction, but doesn't necessarily need every single fictional monkey.
  • Keep, I have found several of these "List of fictional..." things very useful for some recent writing work I have done, and more than just amusing trivia. I do not consider them unencyclopedic, and I don't see the urgent need for completeness as a criterion for maintaining them. Just my opinion... I know we've had this discussion about fictional lists before, MIB! --Canley 06:53, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Merge preferred but Keep in any event. I don't think there needs to be separate lists, but I don't see this as being terribly widespread. Useful? I have no idea ... but certainly more useful than other lists I've seen kept around here like "films with hidden things" or whatever. 23skidoo 15:01, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • There may be a category it's redundant to, merge the two and if categorized, delete, if not, categorize and delete. Shin'ou's TTV (Futaba|Masago|Kotobuki) 17:46, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep Because anything to do with monkeys is awesom-o. It's a useful list in ways that a category would fail at. SchmuckyTheCat 06:55, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep but Do Not Merge, unless you're going to merge "List of fictional dogs" with "List of fictional cats". Monkeys and apes are not identical, despite the common belief that they are, so it would be more accurate to have two different lists. --Charlene.fic 11:56, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep Doesn't seem much different to me than the other lists and categories of fictional animals. I don't have a problem with this. Dugwiki 22:37, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Indiscriminate? It's a list of monkeys and apes. How much more discrimination do you want? Listings down to the sub-species level perhaps? Keep. --Centauri 14:30, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep As a setter of crossword puzzles I find lists like this very useful - both for the setter and the solver. Besides, A. E. Housman’s dictum that ‘all knowledge is precious whether or not it serves the slightest human use’ is an important one for any work of scholarship. Tim riley 10:42, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
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The result was Keep. KrakatoaKatie 04:11, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The Specialists

Requested sources about a week ago. No responses and I haven't found anything that would count towards this subject meeting WP:V or WP:RS. A trivial link from the Steam website seems to be it. Delete as failing secondary reliable sources criteria. Wickethewok 06:18, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

  • "Delete' No citations, poorly done.
  • Delete per nom. I am generally in favour of mods being kept (and applying the WP:SOFT criteria to them is a bit silly) but this one just doesn't have enough verifiable information about it. Cynical 07:22, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep Covered in PC Gamer. Needs a lot of work but it seems the victim of inattention, rather than fundamentally flawed. Night Gyr (talk/Oy) 09:45, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete per Cynical and WP:SOFT. Andrew Lenahan - Starblind 12:43, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep Sources here here here here here here and here per WP:RS. Plus, I don't know why you're picking on TS when there are plenty of other software projects without references. TS has a problem with a lot of its sources being too old to find anymore. Vino 15:43, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep per Night Gyr. The article needs plenty of work, but it's not a lost cause, and besides, TS is a fairly notable mod; of the literally hundreds (thousands?) of Half-life and Half-life 2 mods that have been released, it is one of only 26 that have been selected by Valve to appear on their site. This article belongs on Wikipedia, it just needs some TLC. --UNHchabo 06:52, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Listings on Moddb and Steam are pretty trivial. The GameSpy ones and other things listed above are questionable as well as to whether they can be considered reliable publications. Was it ever it a magazine or anything? Seems like many HL mods have been. Wickethewok 13:01, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
  • What I was trying to say was that Moddb listings are trivial, but it takes a pretty well established mod in order to make the Steam page; I think you'd be hard pressed to call any of those mods unsuccessful. Hell, TS has more servers up at any time than most other 3rd party HL/HL2 mods, including The Battlegrounds (1 and 2), Firearms, Dystopia, and Hostile Intent. Not only that, TS was pretty innovative in its design. How many multiplayer games implement slow-motion? The game is not as popular as it once was, but you can't delete it just because people don't pay attention to the article anymore. That would be like trying to delete Action Quake 2. --UNHchabo 13:53, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
  • TS was (as far as I can tell) the first game to implement slow-motion in a multiplayer context. It also has a larger and more configurable array of weapons then any game before it, because it broke the Half-Life engine's builtin 30-odd weapon limit. It's also notable because many of the community members who have contributed to the game have also contributed to games like Hostile Intent, Dystopia, Digital Paintball, and even Counter-Strike. It's been featured in some Spanish and Portugese PC gaming magazines, but we're having trouble finding scans of the articles, because our forums were reset a couple years ago. Vino 14:28, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep per Vino. I see no other delete motions, why don't we lift the deletion consideration already? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.164.172.183 (talk • contribs)
  • Keep per nearly everyone —Preceding unsigned comment added by Baldghoti (talk • contribs)
  • Keep per Vino. This game is very much alive and is cited in several sources. At the very least, it is mentioned here on Steam's game browser, which shows that people will want some more information about this game. Smileman66 02:44, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep per DWombat. It's interesting that the credibility of a user-created mod is coming into question under a user-created encyclopedia. Sources or not this mod made just as much impact, if not more, than those you call legitimate.
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The result was delete. Chick Bowen 17:27, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Claims by Chick Publications

Let me breath before I start.

While the site may be notable enough to have an entry at Wikipedia, I really doubt this collection of unverifiable original thought, patent nonsense, racism and religion attack is worth an article here. -- ReyBrujo 06:30, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Patent nonsense is text that is irredemably incomprehensible, not text that is obviously wrong or obviously silly. Uncle G 11:47, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
I would not be able to point out where or when, as I usually remove deleted pages from my watchlist unless there is a big chance for recreation, but I have seen administrators delete articles with CSD:G1 for much less than this. However, something I have learned in my time here was that any article with a good number of contributors should not be speedied but sent to AFD, and that I have not slapped a CSD:G1 tag in months, probably a year by now. -- ReyBrujo 14:20, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete, while the errors of Chick and those making rebuttals and surrebuttals are somewhat humorous, this "article" is clearly unencyclopedic. This kind of thing belongs on a personal website, if anywhere. -- Kjkolb 07:12, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete Why not have an article for the claims made by every magazine in the world? Perhaps these things ought to be mentioned somewhere elese but, as stated by Kjkolb this article is unencyclopedic. Signaturebrendel 08:01, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep. The article documents these (rather silly) claims by Chick Publications; it does not make the claims itself. "Original thought", "patent nonsense", and "religion attack" might apply if this was the first location at which they're being published, but it isn't - the article has 84 links because it's trying (and succeeding!) at sourcing all of its information. The article may be a bit crufty, but I'm afraid that I haven't yet seen a proper argument for deletion. Zetawoof(ζ) 09:09, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
    • The article states, in boldface, in its very first sentence that the claims "are widely disputed". The article is citing primary sources for the claims, but isn't citing any sources for the disputes and the rebuttals. For the article not to be original research, it has to be people in the rest of the world, not Wikipedia editors directly, disputing these claims. Remember that original research includes novel syntheses of data. Collecting a set of claims made by a person or an organization that one disputes the accuracy of onesself is a novel synthesis. Listing a set of claims that someone outside of Wikipedia has already researched, collected together, and rebutted, is not a novel synthesis.

      If you want to show a good reason to keep the article, and counter the nomination, show that there's more to cite here than just the primary source material of the claims themselves — show that the disputes and rebuttals can be amply and reliably sourced, too. Cite some sources. Uncle G 12:01, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

  • Delete It's my fault Black Leaf died! I can't face life alone! Danny Lilithborne 09:12, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete per nom. I'm not sure why this needs to be separate from Chick Publications, and the information is at that article already.–♥ «Charles A. L.» 14:22, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete this after merging the more interesting parts of it with Chick Publications tracts. I tend to agree with Zetawoof that this is neither "original research" - thought it was pretty much settled that references to primary sources do not make for original research. It does seem to be a bit too granular, for lack of a better term. - Smerdis of Tlön 14:53, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
    • Saying "Chick Publications says X." is supported by the primary sources, albeit that it results in an article that simply duplicates the primary source in a cumbersome manner. This article, however, says "Chick Publications says X, but that is disputed and the rebuttal is Y, but nonetheless may be true in another sense because Z.", with no sources for the disputes, the rebuttals, and the subsequent analyses. Constructing the disputes and rebuttals directly is original research. Uncle G 17:26, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Merge with the main article on Chick Publications, otherwise it just comes off as a POV fork. 23skidoo 15:03, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete, someone wanting this much detail should obtain his books. I don't think it should be merged. Gazpacho 22:29, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete WP:OR. While I tend to believe that Chick publications themselves qualify as patent nonsense, there are better websites than Wikipedia to publish this original research. --RoninBKTCE# 01:30, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep This is a hopeless vote, but after looking at the article, I see possible OR/V problems (easily fixed), but the compilation of the article itself is not OR and strangely interesting. SchmuckyTheCat 07:02, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Weak delete Even if the sourcing were cleaned up, I think this is a non-encyclopedic level of detail. The Chick Publications article covers the material adequately. GRBerry 19:10, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete It might just be the Harry Potter books and the Dungeons & Dragons talking, but I say smite the WP:OR here with a +3 double-handed sword. Any verifiable information should be relegated to the main Jack Chick article. Vic sinclair 00:01, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete per somewhere in WP:CB I think. -Amatulic 22:46, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete as a collection of links, all of which are unabashedly non-NPOV. Besides, if this sticks around, I foresee a *refutation of* Claims by Chick Pubs article coming soon... and WP is not a message board for religious argument, right? SkerHawx 17:47, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
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The result was delete. - Mailer Diablo 16:37, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Christ's Ambassador Mission

The article makes no claim of notability or importance. The number of branches or members is not given, just its mission. No media mentions are given, either. Except for a few words, the entire website is in Korean, so it is not of any help. The name gets 9 Google results when Wikipedia and its mirrors are excluded. Some of the mirrors are non-compliant, so it appears that they are not related, but they actually contain the content of the article, the CAM disambiguation page or fragments of the pages. Also, several answers.com pages (the site is a mirror of Wikipedia and other content) show up because it has a "Blank is mentioned in these AnswerPages:" function where "blank" is a word or phrase that is used in the Wikipedia article. The only useful result in English is this one, but there is no indication that this other organization is in any way related to the one in the article. Some of the Korean results appear to be pages of links, while a couple may have useful information. Given that it is an organization that is supposedly in South Korean college campuses (South Korea is highly "wired"), I would expect and extensive Internet presence if the organization was notable. Unless evidence of notability from reliable sources can be given, the article should be deleted. -- Kjkolb 06:32, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

  • Delete - Less for the ghits (it's a Korean source, and the relevant sources is probably in their crazy moon language) than for the lack of any claim to notability - the article fails to distinguish CAM from a hole in the ground. Zetawoof(ζ) 09:02, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete Wikipedia does not need this, and Kjkolb makes an articulate case. The Crying Orc 18:08, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
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The result was delete. —Cryptic 11:42, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Regions of Republika Srpska

These regions apparently do not exist. Official website of the government of Republika Srpska makes no mention of them, and no one has ever heard of them, except the author of this website, given as the only reference. Nikola 07:18, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

  • Neutral (leaning to delete per WP:V). I had never heard of these Srpska regions before. Some websites appear to state their existence, but they're hardly verifiable (most of them are online encyclopedias also lacking verifiable sources, and some websites even link to WP's article for further information about the so-called regions).--Húsönd 16:49, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
Changed to keep per Bm gub.--Húsönd 03:04, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
Changed back to Neutral per Dzordzm.--Húsönd 04:58, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
  • strong keep---perhaps they're slightly hard to find on the English internet because they share names with major cities. The UN seems to know all about them, for example [23] , [24], or [25] Bm gub 02:57, 19 October 2006 (UTC) Change to neutral/cleanup per Dzordzm and Nikola.
    • I'm glad you found that information, but these are not regions of Republika Srpska. The reliefweb document mentions several regions: Banja Luka, Eastern Herzegovina, Prijedor, Zvornik and Doboj (Eastern Herzegovina is of course an informal geographical region). UNHCR's map shows regions of Banja Luka, Doboj, Bijeljina, Vlasenica, Sokolac, Srbinje and Trebinje - note that there is no Prijedor or Zvornik region. Note at the bottom explains it: Regions in RS are specified according to competence areas of Local Refugees Committees - so these are competence areas of local refugees committees, and not regions of Republika Srpska. Unece's document apparently speaks of regions used internally by RS institute of statistics. There is a map of RS showing regions at the website of the Institute of Statistics of Republika Srpska (bottom right), but again, these are regions internally used by the institute, and not regions of Republika Srpska. Nikola 06:39, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Strong keep per above. Edward Wakelin 03:16, 19 October 2006 (UTC) Change to Delete per Dzordzm.
  • Strong delete - Nonsense, original research. I inquired about this many months ago and asked the person who first invented these regions in Wikipedia to supply his source. It turned out to be an amateur expat French-Bosnian site. The government in Republika Srpska is centralized and does not feature any administrative subdivisions. What UNHCR thinks about this is quite beside the point. (And oh yes, what French-Bosnian expats think about this is beside the point, too.) UNHCR simply organized their own local chapters in a way that best fits their operations. How is that freaking relevant for Wikipedia? I am sure that cattle growers in USA or milk producers in Germany subdivide the territory according to their measures yet that does not mean we should have an article "Regions of Germany" positing that "Germany consists of Alpenmilch and Friesisch regions" and let alone a map implying that these regions are some sort of equivalent to the German states (like the map of RS regions suggesting that they are some sort of equivalent of cantons in the Federation). --Dzordzm 12:47, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
    • The fact that the UNHCR, the UNECE, the Institute of Statistics, and the [26] BH Embassy all mention the same seven regions suggests that---even if they're not administrative, but merely convenient, like "New England", "The Midwest", etc.---they still may be notable. Just a thought. Bm gub 14:25, 20 October 2006 (UTC) ... nevermind, Dzordzm is right.Bm gub 03:57, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
      • You conveniently forgot to note that BH embassy regions are six in number, not seven. And you know six regions and seven regions can hardly be the same per counting argument. So what do we do? This division is inherently arbitrary. It must go because it does not officially exist. More than anything else, it must go in any form which even hints that these are some strictly defined or officially designated subdivisions akin to cantons in the Federation. --Dzordzm 15:27, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Strong delete - per Dzordzm. --Branislav Jovanovic 14:57, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
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The result was delete, as this has been transwikied already. Since it's on Wiktionary now, and all the author data has been recorded, this article can be deleted. --Coredesat 06:50, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] List of theatre terms

This has been transwikied to Wiktionary per suggestion, see wikt:Appendix:Theatre terms, as it is more appropriate there and fits exactly the fits exactly the group of articles known as wikt:Wiktionary:Appendices and should now be deleted per WP:WINAD. Dmcdevit·t 07:25, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

  • Delete per nom. MER-C 11:42, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Exeunt per nom. PJM 13:01, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep per WP:LIST Lekogm 01:44, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
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The result was Keep. KrakatoaKatie 04:26, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] 2006 U.S. Open - Men's Wheelchair Doubles

This article contains no information, and the event has been completed. Sdd231163 07:23, 16 October 2006 (UTC)— Possible single purpose account: Sdd231163 (talk • contribs) has made few or no other contributions outside this topic.

  • Keep as the article subject is perfectly valid. This just needs information adding, not deletion. OBM | blah blah blah 08:48, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep per Onebravemonkey. The event verifiably happened, and I imagine it would be of similar significance in the wheelchair-tennis world as it is in the able-bodied tennis world. If I wasn't snowed under with assignments, from which I'm taking refuge here, I'd scare up the details. BigHaz - Schreit mich an 08:59, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep have left a message with the original editor to complete if they have the time. Khukri (talk . contribs) 12:51, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
Having looked further seems like they stopped editing shortly after creating the article. Editor who has been around for a year with around 500 edits. Khukri (talk . contribs) 12:57, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep Real sporting event. · XP · 15:50, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete unless filled out. The sporting event was actually 2006 U.S. Open, which we already have an article about. Punkmorten 18:36, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
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The result was Speedily deleted by User:NCurse. NawlinWiki 14:26, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] EUROPAGES

Contested {{prod}} brought here for consensus. RobertG ♬ talk 08:49, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

  • Delete because no case is made for why the company is notable per WP:CORP. The website has an Alexa ranking > 30000. Wikipedia articles should not exist only to describe the nature, appearance or services a website or company offers, but should describe its subject in an encyclopedic manner, offering detail on its achievements, impact or historical significance. In my view, the article marginally qualifies for {{db-spam}}. --RobertG ♬ talk 08:49, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Speedy delete - no assertion of notability. So tagged. MER-C 12:11, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
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The result was delete. Will userfy on request of someone who specifically wants it in their userspace, as always. --Sam Blanning(talk) 17:13, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Jealousy coping

A slightly tentative nomination this. The article is by Kc62301 whose article User:Kc62301/Relationship rules was userfied by the decision of Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Ground rules relationships. On a cursory read, the same objections apply to jealousy coping: however high its quality, it is still an original essay. Also it verges too far into how-to guide territory. -- RHaworth 08:52, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

  • Delete and userfy - same reasoning as others stated in Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Ground rules relationships. /Blaxthos 11:56, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep When the author of an encyclopedia article has a large number of sources from which to draw, the author must select some sources and omit other sources to meet the space constraints of the article. Any encyclopedia article that tries to cover a few different areas of a large topic, and has to select sources for each area, can be considered an original essay. The issue of NOR is whether or not (1) the information comes from verifiable sources, and (2) the information is presented in the same way as in the original sources, and (3) the combination of sources cited does not lead to a new idea or theory. All major ideas in this article come from previously published, verifiable, and reliable sources. The information cited is presented with the same interpretation as presented by the original authors of the cited references. The article reviews several aspects of coping with jealousy, but does not offer a new idea for coping with jealousy or a new theory about coping with jealousy. It just reviews different aspects in separate sections. So the argument for original research seems ungrounded. The How-To argument seems a more understandable argument. But, when it comes to jealousy, the scientists who study it are interested in the question of how to deal with it. How to deal with jealousy is a valid research question in the field of relationship psychology. If an article reviews research conducted by experts on how to deal with jealousy, the findings will come close to sounding like a how-to guide. But it remains a review of a valid research topic. So I disagree with this being a justification for deletion. User:kc62301 16:01, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete per nom. Essay, with a bit of advice column thrown in, not encyclopedic article. Fan-1967 18:41, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete per nom. Looks like OR to me. QuiteUnusual 19:27, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Merge with Jealousy. This is pretty much just advice rather than an encyclopedia article. It shouldn't be deleated, just shortened and merged with Jealousy. UnDeRsCoRe 21:00, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete and userfy. This is an essay. Advice and/or essays don't belong in the mainspace, no matter how good. They're not encyclopedic. Besides, advice usually intrinsically fails WP:NPOV. (I am not qualified to speak to that in this case.) Even if it is neutral, and documents any contreversy, cites studies which differ and disagree, etc, it must be encyclopedic and notable. Parts of this content may work in Jealousy, but that would be more up to Kc62301 to make the adjustments and include them in an encyclopedic manner, rather than as an essay. As such, I cannot recommend a merge. I must recommend delete and userfy. I also suggest that Kc62301 makes the contributions he or she sees fit to Jealousy. AubreyEllenShomo 21:50, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete per nom. Essentially just an essay. Joey Joe Joe Junior Shabadoo 03:33, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete Well-written, but still WP:OR. OhNoitsJamie Talk 06:10, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Redirect and smerge (partial merge) to jealousy. It's got a lot of good information in it, but it's probably better kept in one article at this point. This may be interpreted as a keep for consensus purposes. -- nae'blis 20:22, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete Looks like a term paper to me - nothing about it says encyclopedia, and it reads like it summarizes curriculum sources rather than finding the heart of the matter. As it were. - Corporal Tunnel 01:32, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

October 2006

  • Keep It contains at least some good, referenced information. Therefore edit it and keep it. Psychology is an academic subject, and research into jealousy is a valid part of it.
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The result was transwiki all. --Sam Blanning(talk) 17:22, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Swadesh lists

Please note that this is an nomination for many identically-formed articles at once. All these Swadesh lists are lists of words. Most have no prose at all and are only lexical information, and there is a strong precedent for transwikiing and deleting lexicons from Wikipedia. Note prior agreement on th ematter at Talk:Swadesh_list#WP:NOT, which led to their mass tagging. Note Afrikaans_language/Swadesh_list was already transwikied to wikt:Wiktionary:Swadesh lists for Afrikaans and Dutch and deleted. These are all incorrigible dictionary material, and, per WP:WINAD, should be transwikied and deleted. They will be happier at Wiktionary. Dmcdevit·t 08:11, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

The following articles are propsed for transwiki and deletion in this nomination:
Antillean Creole/Swadesh list – Arabic/Swadesh list – Bangala language/Swadesh list – Bashkir language/Swadesh list – Basque language/Swadesh list – Belarusian language/Swadesh list – Breton language/Swadesh list – Bulgarian language/Swadesh list – Catalan language/Swadesh list – Croatian language/Swadesh list – Czech language/Swadesh list – Danish language/Swadesh list – Dutch language/Swadesh list – Egyptian Arabic/Swadesh list – Estonian language/Swadesh list – Finnish language/Swadesh list – French language/Swadesh list – West Frisian language/Swadesh list – Friulian language/Swadesh list – Georgian language/Swadesh list – German language/Swadesh list – Greek language/Swadesh list – Guarani language/Swadesh list – Haïtian Creole language/Swadesh list – Hausa language/Swadesh list – Hindi Swadesh list – Hungarian language/Swadesh list – Icelandic language/Swadesh list – Indonesian language/Swadesh list – Irish language/Swadesh list – Italian language/Swadesh list – Japanese language/Swadesh list – Latvian – Lingala language/Swadesh list – Lithuanian language/Swadesh list – Macedonian language/Swadesh list – Malagasy language/Swadesh list – Malay language/Swadesh list – Mandarin Swadesh list – Polish language/Swadesh list – Portuguese language/Swadesh list – Quechua language/Swadesh list – Romanian language/Swadesh list – Russian language/Swadesh list – Scottish Gaelic language/Swadesh list – Serbian language/Swadesh list – Slovenian language/Swadesh list – Spanish language/Swadesh list – Sranan Tongo/Swadesh list – Swahili language/Swadesh list – Swedish language/Swadesh list – Tagalog language/Swadesh list – Tajik language/Swadesh list – Tahitian language/Swadesh list – Turkish language/Swadesh list – Vietnamese language/Swadesh list – Zulu language/Swadesh list - Quenya Swadesh list -Mandarin Swadesh list - Maltese swadesh list - Cantonese Swadesh List - Cypriot Maronite Arabic Swadesh List
  • Comment - since there is already broad agreement to transwiki these, I suggest you withdraw this nomination, transwiki and then tag them with prod. Yomanganitalk 09:36, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
    • There may be broad agreement, but I'm not willing to prod all of these, hope for the best, and then have to do an AfD anyway if one person removed the tag. Also, I don't really want to go ahead with the transwiki until I have the delete decision in hand. That's a lot of work. Note that there is a queue at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Old/Transwiki for articles with transwiki decisions like this. It's normal procedure. Dmcdevit·t 09:45, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete all per nom. MER-C 12:12, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Seems like a reasonable nomination to me. Delete all. --Ghirla -трёп- 13:12, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • transwiki and delete. dab (ᛏ) 13:27, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • transwiki per dab, see WP:NOR–♥ «Charles A. L.» 14:36, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment Not even wiktionary has the swadesh lists independent from each other. They group them and even have language family comparison pages. Would that be more encyclopedic? It would then be more than a list of words and could even be accompanied by analysis. Ƶ§œš¹ [aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi] 18:11, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
    • The point is that it needs to be more than lists of words and lexical data. I don't see how reorganizing the lists in any way will accomplish that. Dmcdevit·t 18:21, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
See wiktionary's Slavic table. Now if they put it in IPA, it would demonstrate very clearly the differences and similarities between the different languages. This is the point of Swadesh lists. If we made a wikipedia page for different language family swadesh lists, then this deletion wouldn't be nearly as controversial. Language comparison isn't inappropriate for an encyclopedia. It's the main reason that pages like list of common phrases in various languages and The Lord's Prayer in different languages are still on Wikipedia. Ƶ§œš¹ [aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi] 19:25, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep: Note that these pages are not independant pages, but subpages of language articles, for most of them. Croquant 19:02, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • At least transwiki before deleting, in order to save the information included. Croquant 19:08, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Transwiki and delete. Limetom 05:10, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Strong keep. These are not incipient dictionaries, but limited (207 words) samples of languages using a widespread standard. As Croquant notes, these are subpages of articles, and are encyclopedic in nature: they are language samples. And is the fact that I'm a professional linguist relevant to mention here? It's what we'd put in an encyclopedia of the world's languages, and is 'very ill suited to moving to a dictionary', which is something quite different.--Drmaik 17:42, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
    • It's odd that you'd say they're ill-suited to moving to a dictionary, when Wiktionary has already some of these lists itself. I don't understand what noting that they are subpages has to do with anything; that doesn't make it encyclopedic. Note how the Afrikaans article is now, with a prominent pointer to the Swadesh list on Wiktionary. It is more appropriate there. These are still lists of lexical data, for which consensus already exists against inclusion, and which is not encyclopedic. Wikipedia is a general encyclopedia. Dmcdevit·t 19:37, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
      • Actually, whether wiktionary has them or not is not really the point. Dictionaries are open-ended volumes which give a range of meanings, instances of use, parts of speech etc. Word lists are not there for people to learn the definitions of certain words, but as a basis of linguistic comparison, which is not the purpose of dictionaries. Language pages have a variety of samples of the language itself, and cover areas such as phonetics, phonology, morphology, syntax, so I do not understand why lexis should be moved elsewhere. The very strength of the Swadesh lists is that they are standardised. But rather than putting them within the article itself, because of their size it is better to have them as subpages. So I think the Swadesh lists are better kept within Wikipedia. --Drmaik 07:43, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
        • This is a strawman argument. You need to familiarize yourself with Wiktionary, (see wikt:Category:Appendices), for a start, before you propound on the purpose of dictionaries: we're not concerned about those, but about Wiktionary. Rather than asserting that they are inappropriate dictionary articles (you'll want to see wikt:Wiktionary:Requests for deletion to make that argument), please assert why they are encyclopedic. If you assert that is because they are language comparison (which still doesn't explain why it's encyclopedic), this doesn't make sense: these are stand-alone word lists, and they don't engage in comparison. The irony being that Wiktionary's Swadesh lists do make comparisons. Dmcdevit·t 08:53, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
          • OK, I don't know much about wiktionary. But my point, to summarise what I put above, is that Swadesh lists are composed of a small amount of lexical data, which is appropriate to demonstrate the lexis of the language, just as it is appropriate to have data on other linguistic areas. And in some cases it might be good to have combined Swadseh lists to demonstrate a language family: an argument could be made for that. --Drmaik 09:28, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
            • The point should not be the relevance of Swadesh list pages per se in an encyclopedia, but there relevance in the whole set of an encyclopedia article dealing with a language. Due to editorial constraints, such an article may be built from various parts : main page and sub- or related pages. You can't fairly separate sub- or related pages from the main part of the article. Croquant 08:10, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
I'd argue that they aren't relevant by themselves, even if we pasted them into their respective language pages. Swadesh lists are used for comparative purposes and it's much better to group them together. Ƶ§œš¹ [aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi] 18:55, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
Okay, I've created Swadesh list of slavic languages. I invite other editors to create and contribute to similar pages for Celtic, Germanic, Indo-Iranian, Afro-Asiatic, Sino-Tibetan, Romance, Finno-Ugric, Turkic, Austronesian, and whatever other language family there's enough information for. For a base table without any words in it, see this edit. Once these pages are significantly filled out, you've got my delete vote. Ƶ§œš¹ [aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi] 23:04, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
Er, why? This is exactly what you should do, but at Wiktionary. The point is that you are creatig more lists of words without prose. This is an encyclopedia. Dmcdevit·t 23:18, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
Then we can put prose in. I just started the slavic page so it'll be a little bit before it has good quality but I think that showing the comparison along with a table is more encyclopedic than just the lists by themselves. Ƶ§œš¹ [aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi] 23:57, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Transwiki first, then relist or PROD I don't want to see this stuff disappear before it is transwiki'd, and I have a bad feeling that the articles will get lost in the deletion process and never moved to wiktionary. I agree with Yomangani's comment. The ikiroid (talk·desk·Advise me) 22:45, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Transwiki It's a good source of lexical information. Deleting it just like that is not good. It should definitely be moved to Wiktionary, and deleted only after it is confirmed that the Swadesh lists have settled down there. --Agari 15:04, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep, or alternatively, Transwiki. They're absolutely useful, actually I was going to look at them for my Computer Science research work when I found out they're under deletion review. --Angelo 15:48, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep or merge, what use is transwikiying. How will some of these Swadesh lists be of any help on the English wiktionary. Why would a dictionary include how you say words in different languages. These lists could easily be merged into their respective language articles. T REXspeak 23:21, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
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The result was keep GringoInChile 19:56, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] When Corruption was King

This article reads like a press release, and adds no more infomation than found on the author's bio page. --Michael Johnson 02:42, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

This nomination was incomplete. Fixed now. Yomanganitalk 09:43, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Weak Keep - It seems to be a summary of the plot of the novel. Obviously it needs source citations, possible spoiler warnings, and some distinction as to what is contained in the book and what is background info. /Blaxthos 11:53, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep and expand for now, bringing the deletion back up if the article appears to go against policy later. --Gray PorpoisePhocoenidae, not Delphinidae 13:34, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep and rewrite. Looks fine as an article, just not as written. --badlydrawnjeff talk 18:46, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep for a rewrite - but if the rewrite isn't forthcoming, in its current form I don't believe it's suitable for inclusion in the Wiki. Could be stripped to bare bones for better results. - Corporal Tunnel 01:38, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
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The result was delete. - Mailer Diablo 16:36, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Mohamed Bushry

Non-notable editor of an obsolete non-notable Magazine Oblivious 09:41, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

  • Keep his blacklisting has made him notable. Xania 10:31, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
Everyone writing for the opposition is "blacklisted". Trust me, you dont want to create articles for all the blacklisted Maldivan columnists --Oblivious 10:47, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • delete. No third-party notability info provided. `'mikkanarxi 10:45, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • delete see above. /Blaxthos 11:50, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete as no independent sourcing is used to demonstrate notability to WP:BIO standards. GRBerry 19:13, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
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The result was delete. - Mailer Diablo 16:36, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Rachel Stornant

Almost certainly an autobiography. Is she noatble? -- RHaworth 09:49, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

  • Delete - Google return around 20 relevant hits, and all of them seem to be generic notices of performances, or the artist's posting miscellaneous comments on varied blogs and websites. Appears to be self promotion. /Blaxthos 11:48, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete Does not appear to be individually notable. Deli nk 15:40, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete. Non notable. -Amatulic 22:47, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete as above. - Corporal Tunnel 01:46, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
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The result was delete. Can't sleep, clown will eat me 00:30, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Will Stannage

This footballer has never played at a professional level. For the same reason I am also nominating Paul Hathaway and David Haywood - ChrisTheDude 11:00, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

  • Delete all as nom - ChrisTheDude 11:11, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete all Non-league footballers fail WP:BIO. Catchpole 11:31, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete all - non-notable/vanity - fails WP:BIO. Qwghlm 11:52, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete non-professional sportspeople. Punkmorten 12:12, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete. All fails WP:BIO. HornetMike 12:52, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete vanity Khukri (talk . contribs) 12:59, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Interesting debate arising from WP:BIO (are we suggesting that all non-league players be deleted?); pro vs semi-pro; former top non-pro league player at Tamworth! However in this instance delete! -- MLD · T · C · @:  14:15, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
    • Comment I think that yes, the general consensus is that players who have only ever played non-league are not inherently notable.... ChrisTheDude 15:23, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
    • Comment I think that this is a joke, why would you want to delete useful information off this website, it is suppose to be a website with information on it for people to see why in gods name would you want to delete it just because it isnt as important as premier league players etc... what harm is it doing? I took time making these profiles for other peoples benefit and your just going to delete it, its not right, if that is the attitude then why dont we just delete of every team that has never played at professional level. Stew jones 00:52, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
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The result was delete. Chick Bowen 19:18, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The Centre at Salisbury

Commercial promotion of a local business Skysmith 10:42, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

  • Delete per nom. MER-C 12:54, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep. I added some references to establish notability. --TruthbringerToronto (Talk | contribs) 13:12, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Weak Keep/Comment I'm usually in favor of keeping malls like this one that are the largest or otherwise major draws in their region (in this case, the Delmarva peninsula.) Though I can't help but think that after looking at the (poorly-written) original version, that the creation of this article was spurred by the recently posted Salisbury Mall photo gallery at labelscar.com, a website which has essays about various malls across North America. It may be interesting to see how many malls without articles now get one after they get a mention on labelscar... Kirjtc2 15:01, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
    • Comment. Hey, it's Jason from Labelscar. I found this page via the referral traffic to my site. While I have on occasion edited existing mall entries to include my research or added the external link to the specific mall page on the Labelscar site (which is non-commercial), I have never created ANY Wikipedia page from scratch, including mall pages. In this particular case, neither Ross or I have ever even visited this particular mall and it does not (nor will it) contain an external link to Labelscar. The article about the nearby Salisbury Mall was also not written by us or associated with us, nor did we post the external link from that page pointing to our site. Otherwise, my site generally speaks for my opinion: I think that major, enclosed shopping malls are a notable part of an area's local makeup and Wikipedia entries about them are valuable. However this particular entry includes very little information, and unless it is fleshed out further then I do not see much reason to keep it either.--DanAbnrml9 9:01, 18 October 2006
  • Delete Wikipedia is not the Yellow Pages. no claim made for encyclopedic notability Bwithh 18:54, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete, per nom and Bwithh. A local newspaper article "establish[s] notability"? --Calton | Talk 06:03, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
    • Comment. Yes, local newspapers are valid sources. Even a small newspaper does its best to verify facts printed in its news columns. --TruthbringerToronto (Talk | contribs) 04:28, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete, absolutely nothing in this article establishes or even suggests notability for this mall.--Isotope23 17:18, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment Normally I'm for deleting mall articles under WP:CORP. This one doesn't yet evidence meeting that standard. What it does have is a source (For Shore, Salisbury serves as shopping central) that could be used to have an encyclopedic article on the effect of the mall on local development. GRBerry 19:45, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete If we're going by WP:CORP, then it fails on all counts. Even if we take the article in a local/quasi-regional paper as being from a reliable source, then that's one reliable source. -- Kicking222 16:57, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment. Whoever thinks that shopping centers, even this one, aren't notable should thoughtfully reconsider. While Wikipedia is not the yellow pages, shopping malls are an important piece of our collective history and culture. Whether you like them or dislike them notwithstanding, they have proven themselves functionally and have a continued following. In addition, they function more than just systems of utilitarian commerce. In fact, many people do find them interesting as reflections of their own style of architecture, their varied retail presence, relative locations in our cities, and even their varying physical conditions. I would argue that in general, shopping mall articles belong in a reference encyclopedia if, for nothing else, to provide an index of these important historical agents of our collective history, our pieces of Americana. We must continue to be very careful in filtering content so that we don't become an irrelevant collective source of information. .--Rosster 14:04, 19 October 2006
  • Delete I agree with Rosster above, but I conclude that in trying to avoid being an irrelevant collective source of information, one of the viable steps is not listing every shopping mall in the world. No indication that this is a notable mall. This appears to be hobbycruft, as such it will probably be far happier on a lovingly-tended private web page. - Corporal Tunnel 01:52, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep, verifiable. Alternately, merge with Salisbury, Maryland. JYolkowski // talk 23:51, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
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The result was nomination withdrawn. MER-C 01:57, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Heinz Leymann

Cannot see any reason to consider this person notable, almost entire text of article seems unverifiable? He has a website but it seems questionable. Hard to establish his qualifications too - this may just be a translation problem, might be helpful if native German or Swedish speaking editors went over it?Zeraeph 11:32, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

  • Weak keep Seems reasonably notable. A Google search turns up multiple sources referencing him and his "mobbing" theory (which seems like BS to me, by the way). Andrew Lenahan - Starblind 12:22, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
Comment This is why I would love to see what a native German or Swede makes of him...on the English language evidence he looks really tacky, but he might be very genuine and well respected in the German speaking world. Even as a "keep" most of the article would have to be re-written for accuracy.--Zeraeph 13:22, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
Expert keep: The term "mobbing" (in the context of social science, not animals) usually refers to "bullying" or "workplace bullying" or "workplace harassment". Heinz Leymann was the originator of workplace bullying research. He was the one who introduced the term "mobbing" (in the meaning of bullying; Konrad Lorenz's meaning of the term "bullying" is quite unknown in the German-speaking area) in the German language (and consequently in several other European languages, such as Italian, Croatian). In Europe he is definitly famous. He has published several books and articles. Some of them were translated. To sum it up: Heinz Leymann had a very important impact as far as I know from the Swedish and Austrian perspective. --Sampi/€ 14:02, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
Btw, I have checked the article. There was much wrong-information, which I have already deleted. --Sampi/€ 14:11, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Speedy keep Withdrawing nomination, as per Sampi/€. I was overly hasty, sorry.--Zeraeph 14:26, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
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The result was delete. Can't sleep, clown will eat me 00:22, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] AdmitSpit

Prod removed without discussion. Article does not assert or seem to meet WP:WEB. --W.marsh 13:14, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

  • Delete as non-notable. 29 Google hits, excluding Wordpress. --Gray PorpoisePhocoenidae, not Delphinidae 13:27, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete per WP:WEB. "Growing" is not a notability criterion. No indication it has grown to a notable level. Fan-1967 14:27, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete Does not appear to be notable. Deli nk 15:38, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete Looks more like an ad for the blog rather than being encyclopedia worthy. Nothing new can be benefitted from this article that cannot be learned from the blog itself, and from no other source. MorningSky
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The result was no consensus. Chick Bowen 19:22, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Ben Sahar

Player has not played a professional game. Fails WP:Bio HornetMike 13:53, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

  • This discussion has been included in WikiProject Football's list of football (soccer) related deletions. HornetMike 13:55, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete, youth team and U-21 national team player; can be recreated when he plays either for the Chelsea senior side or the full Israel national team. NawlinWiki 14:28, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete, not yet played for a senior side. – Elisson • T • C • 17:09, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep, player is notable in Israel as well as in Europe especially with the upcoming U-21 European championship which he qualified Israel for. NYC2TLV 17:24, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep The player may be needed to be included in the Israel's U-21's team anyway Rakuten06 17:41, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep,player notable in Isreal and is notable transfer to UK Steve-Ho 20:58, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment to the three above votes, playing for a U-21 team is not a base for notability unless the player also has played professionally at senior level. – Elisson • T • C • 20:42, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep Excellent talent, lot of interest in him. Quality player, much hope invested in him. Has already been integral in scoring U21 goal for Israel vs. France. User: Jon12345(UTC)
  • Delete, not yet played for a senior side.--Kingjamie 20:09, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment. I do wish people would keep personal preferences out of Afds. Whether he's a quality player or not is neither here nor there. Neither is he notable just because he's in an Under-21 side. I suspect several people are trying to keep him here just because he's Jewish. He blatantly fails WP:BIO! HornetMike 22:26, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete Has never played a first team match for any professional club, is not considered part of the first team squad at Chelsea, nor did his signing for them generate any notable coverage as was the case with, for example, Mikel John Obi ChrisTheDude 08:38, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep - I'm going to stretch a point on this one. A combination of £320K transfer fee, significant media coverage of his transfer and scoring a goal against the French U-21 side in France is just about enough for notability. BlueValour 02:35, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment He scored for the Chelsea Reserves last week against Arsenal and was up against Swiss World Cup player Philipe Senderos. That should put his ability into perspective. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.93.21.1 (talk • contribs)
It's not a question of his ability, it's a question of his notability. And he doesn't meet the criteria. HornetMike 12:56, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
195.93.21.1, his ability level is not and never has been a factor in this debate. The qualification for getting onto WP is not reaching a certain level of skill but rather a certain level of notability, which this guy doesn't..... ChrisTheDude 13:46, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
I disagree about the notability factor. He is famous in Israel for qualifying the squad for their first ever European U-21 championship tournament and is the youngest cap ever for the under-21 side. He is literally part of the history of Israeli football and that is what makes him notable. Much more than the big headlines his transfer made in Israel. NYC2TLV 22:25, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Weak keep as he played for the Under-21 side. --Angelo 14:25, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

Delete until he has played in a notable match. josh (talk) 16:49, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

  • Comment What's the point of deleting the page, since it seems it will almost definitely get re-added when he gets older?—Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.93.21.1 (talk • contribs)
Key word "almost". Wikipedia is not a crystal ball. HornetMike 00:44, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep, as per BlueValour. -- MLD · T · C · @:  12:28, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
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The result was delete. --Coredesat 07:00, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Parley Sports F.C.

Football (soccer) club that plays in the Bournemouth Saturday Football League, which is at the 15th level of the English football league system, and formerly played in the Dorset Combination, which is at the 11th. Policy in WP:CORP is that only clubs that play at the top 10 levels are inherently notable, and there is no reason to suggest from the article that this club is notable by any other means. Qwghlm 18:17, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

  • This discussion has been included in WikiProject Football's list of football (soccer) related deletions. Qwghlm 18:17, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete per nominator. As said, unless someone can provide sources for this club being notable in any other way, it fails WP:CORP. – Elisson • T • C • 18:33, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete per above. └ OzLawyer / talk ┐ 19:36, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete Non-notable sports team. Catchpole 20:17, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete as per nomination. - fchd 20:55, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
  • PLEASE DO NOT DELETE THIS PAGE ALL THE INFORMATION HAS BEEN SUPPLY BY :PARLEY SPORTS CLUB —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.29.81.223 (talk • contribs)
    • Comment Where the information came from has no relevance when it comes to deciding whether a subject is notable enough to have an article.... ChrisTheDude 07:34, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
      • Actually, it very much does. Provenances of sources is important. If the sources of the information were independent of the club, and were in-depth articles about the club published in magazines, newspapers, books, or suchlike, then they would count towards notability. See the primary notability criterion in WP:CORP. So if you want to make a case, 86.29.81.223, cite sources where people independent of the club have published non-trivial works of their own about it. Uncle G 10:08, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
        • Bad choice of wording on my part there I think, Uncle G. I took the choice of the word "supply" to mean that the anonymous user was suggesting that the article should stay solely because it (the article) had been created by someone who is a member of the club, that's what I was suggesting isn't sufficient to justify it being kept.....I think..... ChrisTheDude 11:33, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete The Parley Sports Club can supply this information on its own website. Resolute 03:28, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Possibly not the best place to do so, but initially I wanted to raise the suggestion that we be more flexible when proposing club articles for deletion. If there is an article on a club, even sub level 10, but which already contains a significant amount of information within it, including links to other wiki articles, our focus should be on reasons to keep the article not why to deleted it. The WP:CORP policy says a club is notable if "The club... has been the subject of multiple non-trivial published works whose source is independent of the club... itself"', so if one can find a multiple of mentions of the club on articles from independant websites, then the article should be retained.
In this instance, however, the article is not that detailed. I can find little mention of the club other than in football databases and similar online encyclopedic sites. Furthermore, I cannot find the club itself's website - I have found the club's youth football website Parley Sports Rangers, which contains no link to a senior club - which raises the question whether there is a senior team? Added to the confusion about a possible notable past player (see here) and all in all I am inclined to vote to delete this article. -- MLD · T · C · @:  13:44, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
    • Parley does have a senior team if you look on Bournemouth FA it will tell you that the first team plays on a Saturday in Divison 3 and they have a reserve team on Sundays in Divison 2 i dont know the mangers names, thats why i added the youth teams mangers name to the football info box. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.29.85.160 (talk • contribs)
  • User:86.29.87.237 added this section to the article, I removed it as it is wholly inappropriate for the main article. I guess if anything it should be here:
    ==!! PLEASE SAVE THIS PAGE FROM DELETION !!==
    !! THIS INFORMATION HAS BEEN TAKEN FROM A NEWS PAPER ARTICLE OUT OF THE LOCAL BOURNEMOUTH DAILY ECHO SO THEY WILL HAVE A REFERANCE OF IT IF YOU CONTACT THEM, THE TITLE OF THE ARTICLE WAS CALLED 'PRIDE OF PARLEY' I AM NOT SURE WHAT YEAR IT WAS PRODUCED!!
    ALL THE INFORMATION SUPPLY BELOW IS NOT FALSE IN ANY WAY SHAPE OR FORM AND PARLEY SPORTS CLUB DO NOT HAVE A CLUB WEBSITE TO DISPLAY THIS INFORMATION ON.
    AND AS YOU CAN SEE PARLEY SPORTS F.C NO LONGER HAVE A FOOTBALL TEAM THAT PLAYS IN THE DORSET COMBINATION BUT HAS A JOINT LINK TO THE Bournemouth Saturday Football League PAGE AS THIS IS THE LEAGUE THE CLUB NOW HAS A TEAM PLAYING IN.
  • The above moved here by ChrisTheDude 15:04, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
    • I've searched the archive of the Bournemouth Daily Echo, which goes back to 2000, for an article by that title, and several variants, and come up with nothing. Uncle G 18:59, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
      • yer you have only searched back to 2000 i am not sure what date it was as it was a news paper cutting with information about the club i found. I no the reports name was called Karenza Morton contact her or the Bournemouth Echo they should find it for you. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.29.85.160 (talk • contribs)
  • Delete. If the team moves up enough levels in the English football league system, Wikipedia can include an article about it at that time. --Metropolitan90 15:22, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep all history on Parley Sports taken from the Bournemouth ECHO if they can confirm that it has been taken from there paper, keep information about 'Club Information' and the Football Information Box. make inprovements to the page by adding the club logo and a picture of the clubhouse. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.29.85.160 (talk • contribs)
    • Comment The issue at hand is that the majority of editors deem the club not to be notable. Adding the logo or a photo of the clubhouse to the article will not make the club any more notable..... ChrisTheDude 23:02, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete My local town paper used to write up reviews of the local Pop Warner football (for non americans; its a youth-level American football league) It doesn't make them notable and worthy of an encyclopedia article. If my church's softball team gets a newspaper article, can I write a WikiPedia entry for them? NO. Verfiablility is a necessary but not sufficient cause for keeping an article. Also needed is a proof of Notability. This team does not seem to rate as notable, since they play at level 15... When they get promoted to a top-10 level team, then they will be worthy --Jayron32 21:32, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • you lot are like a bunch of old women god whats the big problem ? I made an article about Parley Sports F.C and none of you can say that it's has proof of notability, why dont you contact the Dorset F.A or even the Dorset Premier League for Parley Sports history, the information i added was taken from the Bournemouth Daily Echo can't you phone them to confirm notability. And also I no we are not a top level 10 club but we used to be as you will see in are history we resigned from that League in 2000. Check Are Hits Out On Google for a small village team that used to play in the 'Dorset Premier League' thats pretty good, and as your see the first search result to be found is Parley Sports FC - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia. So that means most people will use WIKIPEDIA to search history about it. And you want to 'Delete IT' you want to take a look at other pages that are just as bad as are's with nothing on them at all. You look throught the 'Dorset Premier League' pages of teams for this season and see how many have history about them selfs, not many i'll thing your find!—Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.29.92.124 (talk • contribs)
    • Comment Actually, the google evidence works AGAINST your arguement. In order to be valid subject matter for a Wikipedia article, then the subject needs to have notability outside of Wikipedia. Wikipedia is NOT a means to gain notability; it only documents subjects that have notability verified by reliable third party sources. If a WikiPedia article turns up as the first hit on Google, it is usually a red flag that the WikiPedia article (and NOT an outside source as required by the WikiPedia policy against original research) is the only major place to find this information. As such, it should be deleted. If you have evidence to the contrary, then IMPROVE THE ARTICLE. Calling experienced editors names or complaining that the club should be kept without providing hard facts will not work in your favor. Also, proof of existance is NOT proof of notability. The fact that a single local newspaper wrote about them does not mean that anyone outside of the immediate area has even heard of this club. If they have, then PROVIDE REFERENCES to show that the club is widely known and regarded outside of the immediate Bournmouth/Dorset area. If there is no such evidence, the article is not notable. Even if they were the best level-15 club, that makes them like the 500th best club in England. Again, my Church softball team is pretty good. But it's not the New York Yankees or even the Toledo Mud Hens. --Jayron32 20:14, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
    • Comment unless I'm very much mistaken it's the responsibility of the creator of the article to demonstrate the notability of the subject, editors participating in an AfD debate shouldn't need to start phoning up local newspapers to find these things out.... ChrisTheDude 10:48, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
      • It's the responsibility of people to substantiate their assertions with cited sources. So it's the responsibility of someone who claims that an article exists in the Bournemouth Daily Echo to cite it, giving date of publication, title, and byline. But everyone in an AFD discussion should do research. Uncle G 12:10, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Yet another comment - I've just noticed that there are a number of clubs currently in the Dorset Premier Football League (level 11) who don't seem to have ever played at a higher level (specifically Blandford United, Bournemouth Sports CM, Cobham Sports, Cranborne, Gillingham Town, Hamworthy Recreation Holt United (Dorset), Poole Borough, Sturminster Marshall, Sturminster Newton United and Westland Sports , so presumably they need to be deleted too......? ChrisTheDude 11:27, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
    • "If article X then article Y." is a fallacious argument. Each subject should be assessed on its merits. The best approach, I suggest, is to go through each article and research the subject. Find out what sources exist. If you find good sources, add them to the article (as references or as further reading) in order to improve it and in order to let other editors build upon your work. If you cannot find enough material of suitable provenance and depth to satisfy the notability criteria, then think about deletion. Uncle G 12:15, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
    • Comment - The Dorset Premier Football League used to be one level below the Wessex League back when the latter was only one division. When the Wessex League essentially absorbed the Hampshire League, the DPL was placed below the 2nd level of the WL, at the same level as Wessex Div 3 (now called Div 2). That's why the DPL clubs have articles, along with a number of other level 11 leagues: Sussex County League Div 3, South Western League, Devon County League, Central Midlands League, Spartan South Midlands Football League Div 2. These leagues are among the strongest at level 11 (indeed, the CML has applied for level 10 status and the SWL and DCL are merging to form a level 10 league next season). Club pages in a garbage level 11 league like the Northampton Town League are questionable, but club pages in the previously mentioned leagues I think should stay because these leagues consistently supply promotion candidates and FA Vase entrants. --Balerion 01:44, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
      • Addition - It's worth noting that Parley Sports played in the DPL for four decades, but have more recently run into hard times necessitating a move down to more regional leagues. The larger issue is how we deal with clubs who drop from what's considered a notable level to a non-notable level. This issue was tested in this mass AfD, but in the confusion of the case-by-case basis of each club, nothing was fully discussed. --Balerion 01:54, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
        • Reply It's also the problem that nearly every football club in England is under the auspices of a single governing body. This includes over 700 teams within the top 11 levels of the English football league system alone. Levels 12+ include (i did an approximate count) 450 leagues. Assuming, even conservatively, 15 teams per league, that results in 6750 teams in these divisions, meaning we have well in excess of 7500 teams, probably closer to 8000 teams. That doesn't even count Sunday leagues. SOME standard has to be applied. By analogy, the U.S. has a rather extensive Baseball structure running under the auspices of Major League Baseball and Minor League Baseball. There are also thousands of smaller amateur and semi-pro leagues. Counting ONLY Major and Minor leagues (down to rookie leagues), and including equivalent independant leagues, there are about 400 teams. Assuming that as a reasonable number of potentially notable teams, that matches well to levels 10+ in the football league system. It is unreasonable that the 700th best football team in England recieves notable press coverage beyond, say, a mere note of game scores in a local paper. This team USED TO be as good as the 700th best team. Its currently about the 3000th best team. That can't be notable. --Jayron32 04:37, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
          • I'm not necessarily advocating a keep, but there will be tougher calls than Parsley Sports in the future - clubs who spend a number of years at level 9, but then drop to level 13...what do you do then? (see: Tuffley Rovers, which was kept) I'm not the biggest fan of the baseball analogy because the US sports structure, legally, practically, and culturally, especially in baseball is completely different from England's. Minor league teams are essentially independently-owned reserve/youth teams and outside the minor league structure, there is no smooth decline in talent like there is from the Football League to the Conference, for example. --Balerion 06:58, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep The History i added about the club should'nt be delete i mean its good for a club of that size to have that amount of history, not many clubs have any thing as big as that on Wikipedia and i thing they should be the pages you should be looking at for DELETION. We as a football club are very proud of are History in the Dorset Premier Football League and we want to share it with people all around the world or people that have an interest in Lower-league football. I know that the information has been taken from a local newspaper but that article was written up for readers to tell them about what 'Parley Sports Club' has achieved over the years and most of the information added was taken from Parley Sports Club's history, websites and association who will supply you information about Parley Sports F.C. —Preceding unsigned comment added by LUIGI909 (talk • contribs)
  • HELP Can some one contact people for notability on Parley Sports F.C i.e Kevin Bond manger of A.F.C. Bournemouth or even contact the Local F.A, DORSET, or contact the DPL Contact's because some one thats uses Wikipedia more than me can get the problem sloved as i am NEW to Winkipedia and its seems complicated. THANK YOU —Preceding unsigned comment added by LUIGI909 (talk • contribs)
    • Please sign your comments by typing ~~~~ at the end ChrisTheDude 15:16, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
  • It apears i have made a mistake by saying that Ron Saunders was manger of Parley Sports indeed he was'nt he was manger at Aston villa and I have now corrected the problem and i am very sorry if this information was seen to be made up or fake in any way. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 86.29.94.218 (talk • contribs) 14:54, October 18, 2006 (UTC)
  • Reply This is in response to the writings of LUIGI909 and 86.29.94.218(anon) above. NO ONE doubts that this football club exists. NO ONE is denying it, or other facts, such as where they play, what league they are in, what their history is, etc. etc. The question is whether such facts warrant that the club is notable. Word of mouth contacts with people involved in the organization, or with local newspapers, or anything else, does NOT establish notability. Please read WIkipedia's guidelines on notability BEFORE you comment on this article. The primary notability criterion is: Does this subject receive 1)significant coverage in 2) several 3) non-trivial sources as 4) a primary focus of the writing. So far, this subject fails on all grounds. We have no evidence of coverage beyond a single newspaper, and no evidence that the coverage is more than scores and results of games. Passing mention in a sports section does not qualify. Do we have articles that review their performance? Have books been written on their history? Are they the subject of ANY critical analysis? If they are, then PROVIDE THE SOURCES. Simply saying "I think the local paper wrote an article on them a few years ago" isn't good enough. Provide book titles and authors, website URLs, newspaper dates and by-lines; give us something to work with. If the ONLY way we can get more information about the subject is to call someone, then they aren't notable. --Jayron32 19:36, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete - playing 5 levels below the notability threshold and never having played at level 10 or above. Nothing otherwise notable. BlueValour 02:53, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
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The result of the debate was to Delete the article. --Konst.ableTalk 12:05, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Heuristic art

Seems to be a term invented by the author; only 49 unique Ghits; unsourced (for use of this term). NawlinWiki 14:12, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

  • Delete per nom, unless proper sources are provided. PJM 14:29, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment: Heuristic art is an Analytic proposition used sporadically by art critics (i.e., algorithmic art exists, therefore heuristic art must exist because all algorithms are heuristics, just as "a red chair" entails the existence of "things that are red"). America jones 04:08, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Weak delete. Per nom and PJM; seems like original research without sufficiently more concrete usage. CobaltBlueTony 16:50, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Weak Delete — as per CobaltBlueTony, this just seems like too much original research. More sourcing would be nice. -- moe.RON talk | done | doing 23:20, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete While the term is sensible, it is also general, and lacking a standard of use it doesn't seem to have a practical meaning. In current form, it's not a Wiki piece. - Corporal Tunnel 02:00, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
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The result was Speedy close - this nomination is a complete mess - it is impossible to see what is nominated for deletion and what is merely comment. Feel free to open individual AFDs for individual pages or clear groups of pages. Yomanganitalk 15:47, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Religious democracy

Please see Talk:Religious democracy. This is the greatest piece of misinformation and falsehood.--Patchouli 14:04, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

Iranian Revolutionary Guard Official in Tehran University Lecture (Part I): Islam Has Nothing in Common with Democracy--Patchouli 13:49, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

This lecture being real or unreal is the opinions of its lecturer. It is clear that he is an exterimist. Farhoudk 12:06, 11 December 2006 (UTC)


Have you ever heard of Great Britain's old policy of "Divide and Conquer"? Farhoudk 12:06, 11 December 2006 (UTC)


Khatami

Crowd: No more lies! No more lies! No more lies! No more lies! No more lies!

--Patchouli 14:50, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

Those students were mainly secular reformists. They are against religious democracy and believe secular democracy. Farhoudk 12:06, 11 December 2006 (UTC)


Ethics?????!!!!!!!!!

Here is a specific list of Khomeini's execution orders of noteworthy people.

Many thousands of others were also executed for religious or political reasons.

In his memoirs, Grand Ayatollah Hossein-Ali Montazeri, who was himself pivotal in founding the Islamic Republic, gives gruesome details of Khomeini's 1988 Massacre of Iranian Prisoners after the Iran-Iraq War. Khomeini's fatwa reads:[1]

"It is decreed that those who are in prisons throughout the country and remain steadfast in their support for the Monafeqin (Mojahedin) are waging war on God and are condemned to execution." — Christina Lamb, Khomeini fatwa 'led to killing of 30,000 in Iran', The Daily Telegraph, 2 April 2001

I think religion has priority over ethics.--Patchouli 13:53, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

Why are you repetedly referring to monarchists? It is 21st century! Farhoudk 12:28, 11 December 2006 (UTC)


"democratic systems" ...are liable to the most flagrant abuse and diverse interpretation[29] ====

[http://www.iranian.com/Opinion/2003/August/Khomeini/ Democracy? I meant theocracy The most truthful individual ] Come on!--Patchouli 13:55, 16 October 2006 (UTC)


Iran student riots, July 1999

This article is a betrayal against all those activists and everyday people who have been tortured, lost their lives, been persecuted, lied to, etc.--Patchouli 14:08, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

  • That is an argument against content, not against an article's existence. If you feel material is in error, be bold and correct it; if you feel NPOV is greatly violated, take it to requests for comment. Procedural speedy keep due to lack of jurisdiction. Alba 15:16, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
Human rights in Islamic Republic of Iran

Human rights? Come on!--Patchouli 14:10, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

Your thoughts
  • Maybe keep Perhaps we should keep to demonstrate as a case in point of a "democracy". However, I defer to others to proffer their inputs.--Patchouli 15:02, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Procedural speedy keep This mess of an AfD. User can refile individually according to proper procedure and then cite policy based reasons for deletions in each case. · XP · 15:21, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Procedural speedy keep, consider moving discussion(s) to RfC: The user appears to have content objections that xe feels were unresolvable on talk pages . The correct escalation for a talk page dispute is not AfD but RfC. Nonetheless, user retains the right to re-nominate articles according to AfD standards and practices. Alba 15:32, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
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The result was keep or merge. Can't sleep, clown will eat me 22:14, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Stargate Atlantis DVD

This article was previously deleted at AfD. A DRV consensus narrowly overturned that deletion, essentially on a plea of consistency, given that Stargate SG-1 DVD was kept. This matter is submitted to AfD for fresh consideration. This is a procedural nomination, so I abstain. Xoloz 14:42, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

  • Keep and expand. Plenty can be said and expanded upon for these. --badlydrawnjeff talk 14:43, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete DVDcruft. Bwithh 14:49, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Weak keep I expect it can be expanded, but I don't know for sure. I'll change to full keep if someone can show some real information that can be added, similar to the info in the SG-1 version. --Tango 15:32, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep As long as it doesn't go into the contents of said DVD's it can be informative, encyclopedic and contain content that wouldn't be appropriate for the main article. PPGMD 15:42, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
eh? wouldn't be much left if the content is ruled out completely. Bwithh 17:07, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Weak keep or Merge It provides for good Summary Style from the main articles. A merge could be considered between the SG-1 DVD and Atlantis DVD which might satisfy. Morphh (talk) 16:29, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete, don't let Wikipedia turn into a DVD catalog. Please? Recury 16:53, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
I'm not sure "please" will work at this stage. What's needed is an administration-directed purge campaign. Bwithh 17:12, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
8(. Recury 17:18, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete, this is not an encyclopedia article. User:Zoe|(talk) 17:23, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Merge into Stargate Atlantis. However, if it was expanded I would probably vote to "Keep". --Bark 17:58, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
    Keep. The entries of the first Stargate DVD being the Atlantis pilot, Blu-ray plans, the Canadian foul-up, and switching distributers is insightful. They won me over. --Bark 17:17, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete, WP:NOT an Amazon listing. Deletion does not preclude an actual encyclopaedia article being written in its place if anyone wants to 'expand' it (which is very different from saying that someone else should expand it). --Sam Blanning(talk) 18:07, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep and/or Merge, if there is a consesus that there is not enough info, we should merge it with the Stargate SG-1 DVD until such time that enough content exists for it to have its on page... -Xornok 21:51, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
    I don't think that would be a good merge, even without much prose, they are both quite long pages. There would be too many tables if they were merged. --Tango 22:02, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
    the alternate would be to delete them then... -Xornok 23:17, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep or merge. Precedent is that this article should be kept. So far, there is no community consensus that articles like this should not exist. If such a guideline is proposed, or perhaps as an addition to WP:NOT, such a change could be discussed. — Dark Shikari talk/contribs 00:20, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
    • Uh, like the precedent that got it deleted before? Recury 01:32, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
      • But the other article got kept. Its not a precedent if it only applies in one anecdotal case. — Dark Shikari talk/contribs 13:24, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
        • That (many) other articles like this exist isn't precedent either. That just means people really like creating them, not that there is consensus that they should be in Wikipedia. Recury 13:31, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Strong Keep This article recently gave me useful information. I was planning to buy DVDs and this was the first reliable place on the web which gave release dates. This article is verifiable, useful, and more information on the topic will become avalible. That means that as more seasons and volumes are released, (which will happen), more information will expand this article. This article is useful, and the agurment that it is tiny, although valid, will not be gieven some time. Tobyk777 02:56, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
This article recently gave me useful information. That's MGM's job, not Wikipedia's. --Calton | Talk 06:01, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete. Good lord, what is the POINT of this fancruft? Two sentences -- at most -- in the Stargate Atlantis would cover this. All that can be done here is to add padding about trivial (and yes, crufty) details about this bonus feature and that cover art and the other commentary. --Calton | Talk 06:01, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
    • Comment. Fancruft as a word should be banned from every Wikipedian's vocabulary. There is no rule anywhere in Wikipedia about "fancruft", and moreover, people simply use it as a term for things they don't like. I've seen it used to describe everything from Naruto articles to information about the Salvation Army. An article shouldn't exist if it violates guidelines such as WP:NOT or WP:V, not if a few Wikipedians declare it "cruft," especially as "cruft" is an entirely subjective term. At least if you're going to call something cruft, back it up with actual guidelines to justify your decision. — Dark Shikari talk/contribs 13:27, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
      • Totaly agree I have been saying the same thing for a long time. Fanrfut seems to have become a reason to justify the removal of anything. It's just a junky piece of slang, made up for wikipedia which is misused. There is no policy anywhere about it. Delete as fanfut is the same thing as Delete as boring or Delete because I don't like it." It's nonsense and for some reason everyone go alontg with it and uses it. Adding to the above, It's not just in fiction either. Ive seen people calling articles about the goverment cruft because it was an obscure branch. Think of a better reason people. Cruft is nonsense. All this cruft junk is probably the worst thing about wikipedia. Tobyk777 04:31, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Merge somewhere. As a possibility, merge it to the other DVD set and then rename the merged article to "Stargate DVD sets" SchmuckyTheCat 06:59, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep Wikipedia is an info source for many people. Knowing where and when DVD's are released is a valuable piece of info for some. EnsRedShirt 08:53, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
Comment Okay I added a poorley written, but well sourced paragraph at the top of the page called DVD History. It explains a few of the things that are special about the DVD's, including the first SONY stargate DVD release, The Canadian first season Disc problems, and the delay of the season two box set because of the switch to Fox.EnsRedShirt 10:12, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Strong Keep: This is completely factual, referenced, not entirely list-like (has other information at the top, like the SG-1 article) and noteworthy: this isn't just for the sake of it, Stargate DVDs are collectors items due to their volumised releases, with ones bought at release worth more. A valid article in every sense, although needs expanding (not a reason for deletion).--Alfakim-- talk 13:42, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep There will be at least 4 DVD releases so there will be enough information, plus the varying regions make it so that the information is interesting. Konman72 19:33, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep I don't see much difference between having articles about DVDs versus articles about movies or tv shows. Dugwiki 23:01, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Merge or delete The article, as it is now, or even if it expands like Stargate SG-1 DVD, is a bad article. Good info, but it needs context. Having a certain amount of info doesn't make something more or less notable as a topic. -- Ned Scott 00:00, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
Merge or weak keep Some parts, like the DVD history, should definitely be kept somewhere. -- Ned Scott 07:46, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep/Merge, useful content that we should store somewhere. bbx 02:28, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
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The result was delete. - Bobet 10:33, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Race to the Right

also Race to the Right/PastShows subpage


A supplemental AfD to Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/ThePete. This is a local talk radio show in Minnesota, in the United States. Aside from references on <100 blogs and other non-WP:RS qualifying sites, I can find no references, RS, or other way to establish verifiability about this. The entire article is drawn from the primary sources of the show and staff, and there is no notability to warrant inclusion in Wikipedia that I can see. Recommend deletion. · XP · 15:07, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

  • Keep Verification beyond blogs can be found at the station's website, 1450knis.com. Re: notability, I have found quite a few pages that deal with items within the media (shows, etc) and works towards completing the comprehensiveness of an encyclopedia that is not limiting by "page count". This is consistent with Wikipedia projects that look to have all state legislators in Wikipedia more for comprehensiveness than for notability. Re: primary sources, almost all of the information has been either on the air, on the hosts blogs, on the station's website or on the show's website, thus, Wikipedia is not the original source. Recommend against deletion.tony garcia 17:47, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
    Except for this, a primary source of your radio station/show isn't sufficient. If other sources and media aren't talking about the show, it hasn't demonstrated notability to warrant inclusion. · XP · 20:59, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment - I live in MN, but have never heard of it (not a reason for deletion). I think tony garcia might have provided info before expressing an opinion given that he is an employee of the station. CMacMillan 20:22, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
    In which case, VAIN/AUTO apply too. · XP · 20:59, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment Curious...do you live in St Cloud?--tony garcia 20:35, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

I can see the writing on the wall. This is a losing battle AND there will be very little guidance. I hope the consistency then is applied throught mid-market radio shows, stations, etc...that each of those, unless they are 'notable' outside of their town, are deleted. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mnyakko (talk • contribs) 02:04, 17 October 2006

Comment - Sorry, I seldom reply to stuff like this, but I felt the need in this case. You can see the writing on the wall, can you? And you can argue about the shortcomings of Wikipedia, and your perceived lack of guidance. How about using that energy to provide the information you've been directed to time and time again. Reference published market share charts. How about licensing documentation? You think it's notable in St. Cloud, does anyone else? Has that been established? Covered in referential media? If you feel strongly about this, then stop pointing at us and do something about it. CMacMillan 19:03, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
Comment per CMacMillan, the best thing you can do here find some reliable sources that have covered this show and provide them here. Also, nobody is arguing that the article on the station should be deleted, just the show and associated biographical articles. There is pretty strong precedent that verifiable radio stations/TV stations should get an article... just not their staff and individual shows.--Isotope23 20:08, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
Comment Is the standard of source actually "Reference published market share charts" or "licensing documentation"? Please point me in the direction for free charts of those nature, CMacMillan, because the only ones I know of require subcription. Seriously, is that the standard to be learned here?--tony garcia 20:35, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
Comment I see. Books aren't either, but they're referenced regularly. Let me help, then. Your station is one of 38 in your market. You are tied for 14th out of the 35 measured stations with an AQH share of 2.4, down from a Fall '05 measurement of 3.1 when you tied for 12th (Arbitron, Spring '06). Your show was not rated. You are available on the web, popular with limited political blogs, and I pointedly did not express a recommendation for Keep or Delete. CMacMillan 22:29, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete, local radio talk show, no demonstrated notability.--Isotope23 20:50, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment I added the Race to the Right/PastShows subpage because if Race to the Right goes so should this. As it stands I'm not sure a subpage archive of a local radio show is appropriate even if the show is deemed notable...--Isotope23 21:02, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment I conced the questionability of the archive of show topics. I saw something similar and thought "that's a great idea" but found no guidelines or policies one way or the other. After typing it I realized what a space hog it is for such little contribution to the encyclopedic benefit of comprehensiveness. I will copy it instead to my user page for my own purposes in case it is decided the subpage should go. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mnyakko (talk • contribs) 02:04, 17 October 2006
  • Comment, good idea... and if you've seen this elsewhere I'd like to know where. Really no article should be using a subpage to archive their shows.--Isotope23 16:24, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment, I realized that most of the places I have seen such examples are those Wikias.--tony garcia 20:35, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment: What's the syntax again to list all subpages under a given parent, to check for others...? · XP · 21:06, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep I have been aware of the concerns (mostly relating to conflicts of interest) in the GUIDELINES regarding "Vanity". The truth is that I started a while ago by adding the KNSI page. Considering that most of the media in St Cloud, MN is absent I followed the model of similar format stations in Minneapolis and started to write articles about the St Cloud live shows. First was the top rated show and then our show. For some reason Dan Ochsners was deleted but this one was not. I have since been building on it in as much of a NPOV as I could. And, you have to admit that had I not said so elsewhere you would have had difficulty realizing that the articles were originated by the subject. Which leads me to the following:

    If you have published elsewhere on a subject, we welcome you to contribute to articles on the subject for Wikipedia. However, every Wikipedia article is expected to cover its subject in a neutral, fair, and comprehensive way in order to advance knowledge of the subject as a whole.[30]

    Can you honestly say that this is not "neutral, fair, and comprehensive"? Is it or is it not advancing knowledge of the subject?

Verifiability...Everything in the articles has been on the air, on the station's website, on the personal blogs or on the show's websites. I take it from the myopic prism used to push to delete everything regarding this station's shows and hosts that this is not sufficient for 'verifiability'...however as of yet noone has offered anything as a response. In other words, there is no guidance whatsoever from the veteran editors...just a 'delete, we're right, no exception' mentality.

When I have a question about ANYTHING I check Wikipedia first. I have never come up empty...except when dealing with matters within St Cloud. While the policy of "notability" and "verifiable" are very good standards, there seems to be a conflict with that in some of the projects I have seen on Wikipedia (e.g. requesting pages for all state legislators, articles completing timelines). These projects imply a desire of comprehensiveness to some degree. Those things said, these articles seem to fall into line with the comprehensive drive of other projects. Verifiability? Yes, difficult. So, to me, it seems the question here calls for a balance between Verfiability and/or Notability vs Comprehensive and leading resource. And one more point to the idea of Comprehensive Resource: many other Wikias also imply a similar drive...things like Lyrics library, etc. Notability? Come live in St Cloud and see if KNSI and their local talent are not notable? What is comforting in Wikipedia (as a resource) is that it seems practicaly anything of public knowledge is able to be found. The fact that a common person within a certain field WOULD likely search for a topic, in my interpretation of notability, is the driving philosophy behind 'notability'. If I am wrong, then I ask for Rulings that demonstrate this error of interpretation.tony garcia 02:04, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

  • Comment second Keep opinion by same editor stricken. Please only state Keep or Delete once a discussion. It is bad wiki-etiquette to do otherwise. Per verifiability, information has to be verifiable from a reliable source to appear on Wikipedia; i.e. it has to be possible that it can be vetted for accuracy. Something that happens "on air" on a radio show is not going to pass WP:V unless there is a transcript, archived program, etc that is readily available for people to verify. Blogs are generally considered by many editors to not be a reliable source because they are self-published and usually have no external checks on accuracy. A station's website may be seen as a reliable source, or may not because it is a primary source and may not be neutral. Personally I opined delete because I don't see any evidence of greater notability. It has nothing to do with the size of the station or the size of St. Cloud... I live in a much bigger city and I would readily opine delete for any local radio programming in my city (including the shows I listen to frequently) unless it could be demonstrated that multiple, verifiable, external sources exist and have been devoted to the show (newspapers, nationally circulated magazines, coverage by non-local news organizations on television or the web). I just don't see that here.--Isotope23 16:24, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment sorry about the second Keep. Being new to actually participating in discussions I thought those were to identify the position (like at political conventions when someone has to identify if they are "pro" or "con" for a resolution before speaking) and as I read more of the procedures I understand they are actually the method of voting.--tony garcia 20:35, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

Delete as non-notable and unverified. All information comes from the station's own website, the program, and the producers' blogs, which are primary sources and therefore not useful (per Wikipedia policy) in establishing either notability or verifiability. It has to come from somewhere else, from a trustworthy source (e.g. not a blogger) who is not related to the program. --Charlene.fic 12:24, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

Why would a blogger not be a cretable source according to Wiki, yet a creditable source according to CNN, ABC, CBS, NBC, and other news orginizations on multiple ocassions? Wiki's deffition of blogger includes this statement: The impact of this story gave greater credibility to blogs as a medium of news dissemination. Though often seen as partisan gossips, bloggers sometimes lead the way in bringing key information to public light, with mainstream media having to follow their lead. More often, however, news blogs tend to react to material already published by the mainstream media. Would it not stand to reason that Blogs can be used as trustworthy sources?Pete Arnold 17:34, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

  • Comment I can't comment on CNN, ABC, CBS, NBC, etc. as I don't work for any of those companies. They have their own views on blogging... and besides, they are news media. Wikipedia is not, it is an encyclopedia. Wikipedia:Reliable sources#Self-published sources as secondary sources guideline is pretty clear when it states "...personal websites, blogs, and other self-published or vanity publications should not be used as secondary sources." They simply are not a reliable source. blogs might be on the bleeding edge of information dissemination, but Wikipedia is a reactive media, not a proactive media. It is an encyclopedia, not a news site; the purpose is not to "disseminate news". If a blog is the primary or only source for information, it can't be seen as a reliable source. If a blog is simply reprinting what has been said elsewhere, then Wikipedia should be using the source feeding the blog (provided it is a reliable source of course) and not the blog. Blogs generally have huge verifiability & POV problems.--Isotope23 19:54, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep The Ambiguous nature of Wiki's rules not only allows editors to make judgement calls, but allows preferencial treatment of some articles, and exclusion of others based on editorial opinion. If rules are going to be cited as criteria to be meet inorder to be allouable in Wiki, then Ambiguous or not, of something meets those criteria, it would be expected to be kept. Race to the Right meets the notability guidelines by having 1. A large fan base and 2. name recoginition. The entires on the contributiers to Race to the Right (Tony Garcia and Pete Arnold) show what makes Race to the Right what it is. Pete Arnold 20:24, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment I don't think it has been demonstrated that the radio show has a large fan base or name recognition. All you've provided is the contention that the personal blog of the show's host gets 360 or so hits a week, which isn't verifiable to begin with, and doesn't establish the fan base of the radio show. Name recognition has also not been established. Where is the evidence of that? Finally, even if notability is verifiably proven for the show, Tony Garcia & Pete Arnold are not notable by association. They both need to meet the WP:BIO guidelines or a very copelling reason needs to be given to ignore the guidelines in this case. This has not been done at this point. It's also interesting to note that the only Keep opinions rendered so far are by people associated with the show.--Isotope23 00:35, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment I just wanted to point out that (a) my intention for authoring this page has been clear throughout the discussions on this and the related afd: to enhance Wikipedia's comprehensiveness of public figures, etc. and (b) WP:IAR, which I think is applicable on this article.--tony garcia 20:59, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

Hi. My name is Derek, and I listen to this show in ocasionally St. Cloud. I think Isotope sounds like he realy wants this gone even though Race to the right is on the air and does have an audience. I am also insulted by the thought of St. cloud being a small town. If short articles in wikipedia exist for other radio shows, there is no reason for this one to be deleted. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.13.234.55 (talk • contribs) 15:10, 19 October 2006 — 70.13.234.55 (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

Delete this article seems to be a person just promoting himself. The popularity of the show is not only unverifiable, but is actually diminished in my view by the length of the article. A national syndicated radio host who is actually 'popular', Sean Hannity, has an entry roughly similar in size to a sunday afternoon radio show on an AM station in a small market in a small market state. I don't believe it contributes to wikipedia in a meaningful way. --Wausau9 12:00, 19 October 2006 — Wasau9 (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

Self-worship and promotion? "...have it contribute to wikipedia in a more substantial way"--I think this is what is being referred to on [WP:PA] by "avoid personalizing them and try to minimize unnecessarily antagonistic comments." —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mnyakko (talk • contribs) 20:24, 19 October 2006
  • Delete Appears to be of local interest only, and I'm not convinced it's notable. If kept it should be slimmed down so it sounds less like a family history. Wiki is not Google; the fact that something exists somewhere doesn't necessarily mean it should be noted here. - Corporal Tunnel 02:13, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment Corporal, thanks for the suggestion. I trimmed it up a bit, hope that helps.--Tony 16:47, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete per nom. Yes, as difficult as this may be to understand, basic Wikipedia policies apply to this show as well, and there are still no WP:RS in the article as of right now. Sandstein 20:47, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete, lots of noise but still no reliable sources. Add some and we'll talk. Vectro 04:15, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
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The result of the debate was to Delete the article. --Konst.ableTalk 12:03, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Yooter InterActive Marketing Agency

Does not appear to meet WP:CORP. Deli nk 15:22, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

  • Delete. You can add aubergines and truffles all you want, but spam is still spam. RedRollerskate 18:49, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete per WP:SPAM and WP:CORP. Hello32020 21:14, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
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The result was delete. Can't sleep, clown will eat me 00:24, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Cairnhill F.C.

NN, no Google hits. Although clearly false information (which raised my attention) has been removed from the article, its authenticity remains doubtful. Julius Sahara 15:28, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

  • Delete Sunday league team. Catchpole 16:14, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete per others. Never Mystic (tc) 17:21, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete Sunday league team, article makes no assertion of notability. Oldelpaso 20:29, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • This discussion has been included in WikiProject Football's list of football (soccer) related deletions. Oldelpaso 20:29, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Were this in England, it would definitely fail existing guidelines for notability of football clubs. Therefore, even though this is North of the border, Delete, under Non-notability or verifiability, take your pick. - fchd 20:47, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete - non-notable Sunday league club. Article creator appears to think article should stay because other amateur clubs have articles, however those are Saturday clubs with extensive histories playing in notable leagues, as opposed to a Sunday team who only started playing this season in a league which doesn't have its own article....ChrisTheDude 23:15, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Strong delete - Sunday league clubs are definitely non-notable. Qwghlm 14:05, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete - Per nom. HornetMike 22:10, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete - Sunday football; not notable -- MLD · T · C · @:  10:48, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Random comment I don't believe this should affect the AfD debate in any way, but I was intrigued to see that this team apparently has someone playing for them who actually has his own article, namely Josey Rowan.... ChrisTheDude 14:08, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
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The result was Delete. Betacommand (talk • contribs • Bot) 14:29, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] List of Xenogears terms

Previously survived AFD, but has been {{prod}}'d. Bringing it back here to see what the flagpole says. - UtherSRG (talk) 15:34, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

  • Can we all agree that this is a list of defintions? No one seems to be challenging that point and it is exactly one of the criteria under WP:NOT. If we can agree on that, and you all still think it should be kept, perhaps the policy needs to be changed. I can't remember any but the most obvious (single) dicdef articles being deleted at AFD, and even then there are usually people claiming that they can be expanded. Recury 22:57, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Question Are any of these essential to understanding the other articles on the Xenogears series? --tjstrf 16:51, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep much more useful as one article/list than spread out over dozens of articles. As for the "list of definitions" reasoning, we have many of those: see List of glossaries and Category:Glossaries for a start. Andrew Lenahan - Starblind 17:22, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
    • Yes, I've seen those. We shouldn't have them. Recury 17:29, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep. Wikipedia isn't a list of definitions, but in some cases, a list of definitions can be useful to Wikipedia. It is far better to have a list of terms that can be linked to than having to define each term in every single article on the subject repeatedly. — Dark Shikari talk/contribs 23:57, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep Regardless of how useful or not this might be, it appears to be verified and, important to me, already survived an afd nomination previously. Unless something significant has changed since then, I don't like the idea of renominating articles that already have been discussed. Dugwiki 22:40, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete or Transwiki I'm a fence sitter on the need for inclusion of "Glossary" articles in Wikipedia. I personally think they would be better in Wikibooks, Wiktionary, and the like. But some of them are ok. Wikipedia, in general, is supposed to be about writing "Beautiful prose" Making a glossary is the weasel way out of it. It's also just a long re-statement of plot terms. (WP:NOT, WP:WAF) And to top it off, I don't see a single in-line citation in the entire thing. Helpful? Yes, maybe to some. But helpful isn't a reason for inclusion in the wikipedia. This would be a great addition Wikibooks or a Xenosaga wikia. --Kunzite 01:22, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete This is a list of definitions, many which are nonessential to understanding the basic plot. Chevinki 03:35, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep. If the article it is linked to is about a real topic--it is--then placing the glossary here simply extends the article without overrunning the size limitations. I do not see why this is a problem. I think that calling it names like "a weasel way out" is simply foisting a denigrating lexicon onto the attempt at coherence for the article--not an argument so much as failure to have an argument and resorting to abuse. I do not mean that to be insulting, I am just saying it is the old ad hominem trap that we all fall into from time to time. The article itself is about a very complicated text and the glossary serves the purpose of supporting it well.

Malangthon 00:26, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Let's try this again and see if people can resist the temptation to vandalise my contribution by placing it where it was never intended to go. And let's see if the the person or persons who have decided they own Wikipedia can keep their incoherent blathering to themselves.

Malangthon 00:11, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

This is just an observation--I am still going through this stuff and some of it is mind-numbingly off the wall--but to some extent this entire section comprises a real treasure--at least it will be in a generation or two. It chronicles many aspects of pop cutlure. Albeit not very well in some cases but if we had this sort of collection of articles on say, 13th century England, it would be highly valued. I am just saying, before completely deleting all of any article, ask yourself what would it signify to a reader who will not be born for another 20 years. So, careful with the broad strokes. Malangthon 02:26, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

So make a copy and put it on some other wiki. Recury 19:36, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
Please be civil on Wikipedia and do not needlessly accuse people of vandalism. Please also refer to the Wikipedia deletion policies which suggest that comments should be added in a bulleted list with the deletion suggestion summarized in bold. Recently we had a deletion bot going through AFDs and gathering information. It was requested that subheadings found in pages for deletion be fixed. It seems that this project went on hiatus within the past few says, but I hadn't realized it. Still, this is a deviation from the standard AFD formatting and has already caused comments to be added to this subheading. It also gives undue visual weight to your opinions on the subject. I have removed the heading again and reformatted your comments to the regular AFD discussion format. --Kunzite 01:06, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete. Does not explain the real-world significance of any of these characters (it doesn't even say "from the popular game"), uses no inline or footer references (WP:NOR/WP:CITE), indiscriminate list of seemingly ALL terms (WP:NOT)... we've had gaming glossaries on afd before (one was for Half-Life 2, I think) and they were deleted, so there is also a precedent. Hardly any of these terms are of value to non-players (in which case the main article should cover them anyway), and even those that are can be better understood from the manual/guide/review/game/llama/etc. Let's make it very simple: if these terms are extremely notable give them their own articles; if not, mention them in the main article; if not notable enough even for that, get them off the plane wiki. GarrettTalk 02:01, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete. Wikipedia is not substitute for a game guide. Combination 02:40, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep and rename to Xenosaga glossary. Glossaries are permitted, and that is what this is. Dread Lord CyberSkull ✎☠ 09:54, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
    • No, they aren't permitted, since glossaries are lists of definitions, which is something specifically excluded by [{WP:NOT]]. Just because articles already exist that violate a policy doesn't mean that the policy doesn't apply. Recury 13:05, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
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The result was delete. --Coredesat 07:03, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] SoCrates Software India Private Limited

Fails WP:CORP. As a small Indian subsidiary of a Japanese giant it's unlikely to get a big media profile. Mereda 15:50, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

  • Note: This debate has been included in the list of India-related deletions. -- Mereda 15:53, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete per nom. Only 21 Ghits when searching "SoCrates Software India Private Limited" with quotation marks.--Jusjih 16:22, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete No evidence of notability. Deli nk 18:34, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Weak Delete 3 media stories are provided by the article. But its not doing any revolutionary work in electronics nor does it have a huge public profile. Its comparable to a small startup right now. --Ageo020 (talk • contribs • count) 20:28, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete. With Hemlock. --RoninBKTCE# 01:37, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
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The result was delete. --Coredesat 07:05, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Pet theory

'Nomination for deletion Fails WP:OR, WP:V, WP:DICDEF. Inaccurate/misleading or at least unsourced/unproven claim that a common language phrasing is a specific kind of scientific jargon. The quote shown in the article does not prove anything about jargon (and presents a poor and misleading interpretation of the quote), only that the writer is using a common English term, "pet". The external link leads to a newspaper article (about an artists theory about a particular aspect of the history of art) which only uses the term in the headline. "Pet theory" is used to mean "especially favourite/cherished" theory but the term "pet" can be used in the same way for other contexts. E.g. as this dictionary definition puts it:"pet: , a. Petted; indulged; admired; cherished; as, a pet child; a pet lamb; a pet theory; a pet animal.Some young lady's pet curate.". At best, the term could be a bit of scientific slang i.e. a dictionary definition (but again there is no proof of this given). The previous afd (ended in no consensus in May 2005... article has not improved substantially since then) revolved around the dicdef issue: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Pet theory . Bwithh 16:09, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

Hmmm. I just realized that my last afd nom was for Pet peeve (AfD discussion) about 4 days ago. Funny... the coincidence didn't occur to me until 30 mins later, and I came across both terms as the first afd-able article through "random article" clicking rather than seeking them out Bwithh 16:40, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete. WP:DICDEF + quote. — Arthur Rubin | (talk) 18:37, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete. WP:DICDEF; quote from Eddington is kind of irrelevant to the thesis. Also I can't see any way to expand this stub into something respectable. HEL 21:28, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete per nom. - OP simply mis-parsed the Eddington quote. Michael K. Edwards 09:56, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
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The result was delete. --Coredesat 07:06, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Lars Johan Vespestad

Delete. This is a non-notable musician. [Check Google hits] Google search brings up 10 "unique" results; even with my limited grasp of Norwegian I can see that they have nothing to do with music. Speedy tag removed. ... discospinster talk 16:15, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

  • Speedy Delete I originally marked this as a speedy with a {{userfy}} tag, as the author seemed to be the subject of the article. Wildthing61476 16:27, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete as nn musician/random person. Cannot be speedied as an objection has been raised. Molerat 17:24, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • This article is about a very popular artist in norway. he is one of my favourite artists. I have heard him play live several time on some clubs and festivals, in Norway. Please don't remove this article "--Count Zar 17:28, 16 October 2006 (UTC)"
  • LOL. Delete as vanity. Punkmorten 18:30, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete nn, vanity. --Eivindt@c 02:28, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
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The result was Speedy keep - for reasons as stated by Resolute. Nomination reason clearly not true. Yomanganitalk 16:26, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Calgary Centennials

Reason Angad Bhat 10:43, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

Pure vandalism & vanity.

  • Speedy Keep Obvious bad faith nom, and violation of WP:POINT by User:Ab.angadbhat following my actions to replace the AfD tag he removed from his article, and my vote to delete that article found at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/AIIR. He also attempted to nominate one of my subpages: User:Resolute/Articles using the wrong template. Resolute 16:21, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
    • Should also note that I completed the nomination process for him, because I am such a nice guy.  ;o) Resolute 16:21, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
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The result was delete. --Coredesat 07:08, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Uk.media.tv.misc

  ATTENTION!

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Non-notable newsgroup. Fails WP:WEB. 258 ghits [31], mainly groups.google and forums. A strong case of WP:AUTO and WP:COI. see here. -- IslaySolomon | talk 16:29, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

  • Keep. UMTM is a newsgroup, not a website, so I'm unsure if WP:WEB is strictly applicable. However, I note item 3;
“ The content is distributed via a site which is both well known and independent of the creators, either through an online newspaper or magazine, an online publisher, or an online broadcaster. ”
UMTM is re-distributed through Google Groups.
Also, this group sees a significant amount of non-spam traffic, comparable to other newsgroups with wikipedia articles. --Billpg 16:43, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
Google Groups does not qualify. it is just a simple unfiltered web interface to the raw newsgroups themselves (all of them - reaching back to the early 80s). Since it feeds all newsgroups equally, it cannot be used to determine if a newsgroup is unique or notable enough to rise above the noise and be listed here. The WP:WEB bullet you posted intended for things like flash animations, podcasts and other media that is plucked from the teeming mass of available media and re-broadcast by respected sources. (moved my comment so the discussion flows better - the multiple : used in the previous comment confused me) - CosmicPenguin (Talk) 21:58, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete per nom. Usenet newsgroups don't get articles by default; they have to be notable somehow. This one isn't. --Aaron 16:45, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete I don't see notability. Deli nk 18:34, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep. An encyclopedia should be objective. A very subjective decision is being made here about "notability". There is clearly meaningful traffic on the NG and a definite "community" of regular posters. Either allow this, or allow none. MurunB 20:17, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
    • This comment deleted by poster.Wow fab groovy 12.35, 19 October 2006 (BST)
    • Notability isn't subjective. Does it satisfy WP:WEB? — Dark Shikari talk/contribs 23:58, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete. Not a notable newsgroup, and I have posted there. Fys. “Ta fys aym”. 21:25, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete. Popularity within its own community does not a notable subject make. (little bit of Yoda there). I am active in several forums, for example ones regarding computer games I regularly play. Some of them are VERY active for game forums, with thousands of active members. Notability, however, can only be established from OUTSIDE of the subject in question. Have people who DON'T contribute note and reference this newsgroup? Are there verifiable, reputable, third party sources that can attest to its notability? If not, then the subject is not notable. --Jayron32 04:52, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete. I read the group and occasionally post. I agree totally with the points made by Jayron32. Arganoid 21:21, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete. U.m.t.m is one of my regular newsgroups and creating the page was a bit of fun, but I'm not sure it really adds anything. mh. 18:26, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
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The result was no consensus, even if the unsigned keep arguments are disregarded. --Coredesat 07:10, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] List of female porn stars

Redundant to Category:Female porn stars and harder to maintain. Thanks to Jacobian for pointing me to this list during Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of male porn stars. Tizio, Caio, Sempronio 16:35, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

  • Keep this is a list that contains useful infomation
  • Keep It has lots of information. Some adult film start cross over into mainstream media. Some people may use this listing for a reference into their film career's past.
  • Delete as listcruft. The category is fine on its own. --Alex (Talk) 16:51, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep. I totally disagree this time. Although the category handles the same topic, porn stars go by lots of different names, and this list is a superior navigational aid compared to a category. Mangojuicetalk 17:09, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep per Mangojuice. DCEdwards1966 20:23, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Remove Many people might object to being listed as a porn star, so it is absolutely essential that any name on the list be backed up by reliable sources. If one of the articles that is Wikilinked to is deleted for any reason, the source references no longer exist, but the name would remain in the list. A category would not have this problem. --Gerry Ashton 21:20, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep. Lists and categories serve entirely different purposes. -- Necrothesp 18:24, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete. Redundant to the cat. Yes, lists serve a different purpose than catagories, largely in that they can be expanded to include additional information about each entry. That hasn't happened here, though, making this information a less-maintainable duplicate of the category. Even if someone were to sit down and write a blurb about each and every entry on the list (of which there are very many, making it an unlikely event), we would be left with something so huge as to be of extremely limited usefulness. As such, I am !voting delete on the grounds that this adds nothing useful to the encyclopedia. Also it is entirely unsourced. ergot 20:04, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
    • Comment. No, their main purpose is that they serve to indicate articles that need to be created, something that categories cannot do. -- Necrothesp 20:20, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
      • Comment. Well, there aren't any redlinks in it, either, so that one is also a moot point. ergot 22:26, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
        • Comment. I take it you're meaning "moot point" in the American sense rather than the entirely different British sense? Not really, since this is Wikipedia and we can add to articles at any time. -- Necrothesp 23:43, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
          • Comment. You are correct; I've been living in the States for a few years now. Hehe. At any rate, I'm not sure that encouraging the creation of redlinks in a list like this would be a desirable, as it would attract articles on even less notable pornstars than we already see every day at AfD. ergot 00:19, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
            • Comment. A redlink is forbidden unless it is accompanied by a reference to a reliable source indicating the person actually is a porn star. --Gerry Ashton 00:22, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep Lists and categories are independent. One advantage to a list is it can also include actor aliases, debut movies, career dates and other info that a category can't. There's no reason both a category and list can't exist simultaneously in this case. Dugwiki 22:42, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Strong Delete. Category:Female porn stars already serves this purpose. Individual articles in this category will contain aliases, movies, dates, and other information. The category is auto-maintaining; the list is not. -Amatulic 22:52, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
    • Comment. As stated numerous times, lists and categories serve different purposes and one does not supersede the other. -- Necrothesp 23:27, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Send it to the category Same thing happened to the anal porn actress. Move it all to the category. Much easier to index. Anomo 01:36, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
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The result was delete. --Coredesat 07:12, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] List of Superman Returns plot elements and trivia

Alright, first off the article has "trivia" in it's name, it's an obvious candidate for violating WP:AVTRIV. The rest of the article focuses on blantant obvious comic allusions and subplots, especially on the Jason character being the son of Superman and a pointless (bordering on trivia) section on what went unresolved in the film. The Filmaker 04:31, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

  • Delete per my own nom. The Filmaker 04:31, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • This AfD nomination was incomplete. It is listed now. DumbBOT 16:44, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete per nom. I don't see the usefulness of a separate article covering such items. PJM 17:16, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete per nom. Deli nk 18:33, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete Indiscriminate info. --Chris Griswold (☎☓) 08:30, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
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The result was delete. - Mailer Diablo 16:40, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Mac J. Donnelly Jr.

I have proposed that this article be deleted because it reads more like a memorial tribute, which is prohibited under the what Wikipedia is not policy. --TommyBoy 02:09, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

  • This AfD nomination was incomplete. It is listed now. DumbBOT 16:44, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete NN Fails WP:BIO Sparsefarce 19:30, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete Sadly, there are many police officers killed in the line of duty -- without some other notability they are not encyclopedic. older ≠ wiser 20:23, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
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The result was Speedied. HappyCamper 01:40, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] On Wheels

Delete on wheels WoW Vandal Ninomy 01:42, 16 October 2006 (UTC)— Ninomy (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

  • This AfD nomination was incomplete. It is listed now. DumbBOT 16:45, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete, salt the earth: per WP:DENY. Alba 17:29, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Makes no sense as a disambig. Nobody looking for the Meals on Wheels article is going to just type in the "On Wheels" part. First choice: Redirect to Wheel. Second choice: Delete. Andrew Lenahan - Starblind 20:06, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete... Pointless dab page.--Isotope23 20:48, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete Little to no use on wikipedia. Hello32020 21:14, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete on wheels! - useless disambiguation page. MER-C 02:00, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment Interesting situation here, we have two SPA accounts at work here. Creator's first edit was to create the page, and the second was to add an obscure template, {{notWoW}}. Nominator's first edit was to add the AfD template, and the second was to list here. --RoninBKTCE# 02:05, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
  • WHY WASN'T THIS SPEEDY DELETED ALREADY? SchmuckyTheCat 07:02, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete Created for its humor, not its usefullness. Deli nk 13:41, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep These things existed before some vandal that no longer has a page on Wikipedia about him. Anomo 01:37, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
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The result was Speedily deleted on creator's request - Yomanganitalk 16:58, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Operation Glado

Please delete this page. I made it by mistake. I misspelled Operation Gladio as Glado. Paul, in Saudi 14:22, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

  • This AfD nomination was incomplete. It is listed now. DumbBOT 16:45, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • I've tagged it for Speedy delete. --Alex (Talk) 16:55, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
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The result was redirect to Radeon R300. --Coredesat 07:19, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Radeon_9500_Pro

Duplicate of material already covered on the Radeon_R300 page. Nothing much I can see worth merging, so its a deletion candidate. User just doesn't seem to understand the categorisation system used in the IT section, where cards are listed according to core type. This is the system used by all other contributors in this area. Timharwoodx 16:49, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

  • This AfD nomination was incomplete. It is listed now. DumbBOT 16:45, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Redirect seems the clear choice here, as the card itself is still real. FrozenPurpleCube 17:59, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Redirect per FrozenPurpleCube.--Isotope23 20:47, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Redirect Just as the creator didn't understand the categorization system, future users who search for the term won't know either. Perfect use for a redirect. --RoninBKTCE# 02:08, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Okay, redirect. All agreed. Timharwoodx 14:38, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
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The result was Speedy redirect to Uğur İbrahimhakkıoğlu (page was blanked) - Yomanganitalk 17:01, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Uğur İbrahimhakkınoğlu

The correct name of the article is Uğur İbrahimhakkıoğlu, which exists now. —Preceding unsigned comment added by CeeGee (talk • contribs) 12:11, 15 October 2006

  • This AfD nomination was incomplete. It is listed now. DumbBOT 16:45, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
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The result was speedy delete. Article creator has admitted this is a hoax. Sjakkalle (Check!) 11:03, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Zone Kids

Fake channel invented by Hmr. I know this is fake because he/she told me, see here User talk:dell9300#Zone Kids Not Exist.

  • Delete per nom DWC LR 19:36, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
  • This AfD nomination was incomplete. It is listed now. DumbBOT 16:45, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete Doesn't exist. Andrew Lenahan - Starblind 17:26, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete per nom. Deli nk 18:32, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Speedy delete as admitted hoax per WP:SNOW. No chance this will ever survive AfD. Zetawoof(ζ) 22:58, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Speedy deleted as WP:CSD#G3. Hoaxes are in general not CSDs because of the chance of a false positve, but the article creator admitted it's a hoax, so there is no point in letting this stay any longer. Sjakkalle (Check!) 11:03, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
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The result was Delete. Betacommand (talk • contribs • Bot) 14:32, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] List of capitals of subnational entities

The list is to vast, useless and joints a lot of very different realities--Gp 1980 16:58, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

This nomination was incomplete. Fixed now. Yomanganitalk 17:04, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Weak keep Seems useful. Name of the article could be changed though, as only major subdivisions and their respective capitals are listed.--Húsönd 17:07, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete overkill and highly unlikely search term, though I have to credit its creators for their hard work. People interested in the capitals of regions within countries will be more likely to search for the country or region itself. Resolute 23:36, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete I've worked on this article, but it's ok to let it go to article heaven. SchmuckyTheCat 07:09, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete It is too much information for one single page. You can find this information else where on the site. Brainboy109 17:55, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Strong Keep I think it is useful to have all this information in one place. --SJK 07:45, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
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  • Strong keep: Can be narrowed down to the highest subnational entities in different countries. Provinces and territories of Canada, states and territories of Australia, states and the D.C. of the United States, for example. Passer-by 17:08, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
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The result was delete. --Coredesat 07:27, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] WWE vs. ECW Head to Head

A one time WWE special. As per other nominations of late, this certainly shouldn't remain. Post it on a wrestling wiki, not here. RobJ1981 16:55, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

  • Delete Based on precedent that WWE Homecoming was recently deleted, and this is far less notable than that. Tony fanta 18:16, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete More WWE overhyped stuff. It's worth a mention in Extreme Championship Wrestling (WWE). --Jtalledo (talk) 18:52, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete one-off professional wresting events are not notable.-- danntm T C 19:36, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment But where would the notable info from this episode go? Any notable info from the RAW specials is obvious, but this one? Maybe into the WWE ECW article? We need to think of that before I can support a deletion. Delete and merge notable info into Extreme Championship Wrestling (WWE). James Duggan 01:27, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete, to match past deletions of WWE TV Specials. ABricker 01:02, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete: per nom. Shot and Botched 03:22, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
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The result was keep. --Coredesat 20:46, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Kuat Drive Yards

I nominate this article to be deleted because it does not pass wikipedia's notability critereon in regards to works of fiction. The article is entirely a plot summary or description of a fictional setting, whereas wikipedia fiction notability guidelines require there to be some sort of encylopedic content connecting the fiction to the real world (for example "kuat drive yards was contraversial amongst the star wars fan fiction community, who thought that the space ships should have been created by the force, this led to a large letter writing protest targetting lucas arts"). As I believe there is not one scentence any person could write in this article that is not a plot summary, biography or description of a fictional place, I nominate it for deletion. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Laimerpramer (talk • contribs)

  • This AfD nomination was incomplete. It is listed now. DumbBOT 14:12, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep. This is a notable part of a very notable fictional universe, and should not be deleted. But I agree that it should be more Out of Universe in it's content. It was a big part of the Bounty Hunter trilogy, and should mention that. -LtNOWIS 23:58, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep per Lt. Nowis; this plays a major role throughout the star wars universe; the article needs more of an out of universe perspective and less plot summary in favor of its actual significance in the universe. — Deckiller 19:29, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
    • Coment - Describing the significance of the fictional location in the star wars universe still counts as purely plot description from my perspective.
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 Please add new discussions below this notice. Thanks, Mangojuicetalk 17:03, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep per above Valoem talk 18:10, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
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The result was delete. - Mailer Diablo 16:40, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Philip Emory Lord

Prodded twice as non-notable Mayorial candidate (2nd time by me, unfortunately), prod removed and still no claims of notability. Fails WP:BIO and WP:V. Delete--Richhoncho 17:12, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

  • Strong Delete possible hoax article Google search of "Philip Emory Lord" (with quotes for exact name) brings 0 non-wikipedia related search results. Valoem talk 17:22, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete appears to be a hoax. Hello32020 21:12, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
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The result was Keep. KrakatoaKatie 02:25, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] O-Pearl

Verifiability and notability issues. This porn star's page was kept in an afd Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/O-Pearl over a year ago, on the basis that it could be expanded and sourced. It is still an unsourced micro-stub. Since then, WP:PORNBIO has been developed, and I don't think she meets it, at least, not without some new information coming to light. I tried to find sources, but many of the hits were not about this person, though she does have her own website (Alexa rank 2 million plus). Mangojuicetalk 17:21, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

  • Strong Keep meets WP:PORNBIO, Performer has been notable or prolific within a specific genre niche.. Especially since her genre is so unique. Just added citations. Valoem talk 17:30, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment - does that source really back up the claim that she's notable within a genre? That appears to be someone's personal web site, and it doesn't talk about her pushing the genre, just that she has large, heavy piercings. Mangojuicetalk 17:58, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
Comment Certain sources are self explanatory. I believe her videos itself are notable enough because of the oddness of her genre. There are very few performer of this fetish, also people out of her field would most certainly be interested in her because of its strangeness. Keeping this article is more beneficial than harmful to Wikipedia. Just the visual appearance is enough for notability. Every genre of pornography is different, a regular performer of a common genre requires more prominent sources than a perform of such an strange genre. Valoem talk 18:03, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
Okay, well, let's see what the community thinks. Mangojuicetalk 18:40, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep. Per the article, the discussions here and the previous nomination. She clearly owns a fetish niche. Now, if only I can find the videos on people who get off on having a car run into them. :-) And yes, this is a fetish so probably 1 film would be notable. Vegaswikian 21:13, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete - strange but not notable and fails wp:pornbio. There are no credible independent sources that she leads in her field or pushes the envelope. BlueValour 00:34, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Strong Keep Actually this passes WP:PORNBIO. Creditable indepedent sources are not a requirement in WP:PORNBIO because producing a film in itself is creditable. There is a different criteria for WP:PORNBIO which is listed on the page: An erotic actor or actress may be demonstrated as notable by meeting any one of the following criteria: 6. Performer has been notable or prolific within a specific genre niche. She meets that requirement. Simpleerob 05:28, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
Well, WP:PORNBIO is only a proposed guideline, whereas WP:V is wikipedia policy. So I think even though pornbio doesn't talk about sources, we still need to have them. Mangojuicetalk 12:32, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment I believe the reasons why WP:PORNBIO does not mention WP:V in the same manner is because the method of proving WP:V with pornographic actresses can be confirmed simply through videos and films. One can confirm that she uses the practice of extreme fetishes with piercings and weights by watching her videos. I have not found other actresses which share a similar practice. WP:PORNBIO is good for this reason. In the event of rare fetishes esp in case of a European performer it can be difficult to find other sources which mention this performer. However, she is very popular on forums and underground articles such as the ones cited. I think we should be hopeful that this article will be a vital part of Wikipedia and wait to see whether or not WP:PORNBIO passes or not because according to the proposed guidelines she is a definite keep. Also people should check other languages to see if she is mentioned. Valoem talk 13:34, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
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The result was Speedy delete a7, no assertion of notability. NawlinWiki 18:01, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The Arnion

Not a well recognised band, not signed, probably vanity The Crying Orc 17:49, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

  • Delete. Based on what I see, they do not satisfy WP:NMG. PJM 17:58, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
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The result was speedy delete g4. (I don't quite see what the point of a redirect to Internet would be, but feel free to create one if I'm just being dense.) —Cryptic 22:06, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Serious Business Records

Per G11. Previous debate was for delete. (Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Serious Business Records) Very few Google hits other than company page and band pages. Did not find anything at AMG. —Malber (talk • contribs) 17:55, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

  • Speedy Redirect to Internet. The last AFD deleted it and this is a recreation of a previously deleted article. Previously deleted articles = speedy delete by WP:SNOW. Anomo 20:54, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
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The result was Speedy delete a7, gaming clan, no assertion of notability. NawlinWiki 18:38, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Bridgemonkeys

nn-gaming clan, why is this here at all?--64.12.116.196 17:57, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

  • My deletion of the template was inadvertant - I was trying to get beyond all the vandalism on the page; My apologies. --Mhking 18:10, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Nope, it is a gaming clan. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.108.52.245 (talk • contribs) 2006-10-16 18:22:05
  • The article describes a computer gaming clan that was purportedly set up by three pseudonymous people. I can find no independently sourced non-trivial published works on this organization whatsoever. Moreover, the article content isn't even verifiable from the gaming clan's own web site. This is original research, an original account of the history and rules of this organization that isn't even published on the organization's own web pages. According to this thread, it is primary source material, written from firsthand experience and no sources. Delete. Uncle G 18:24, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Speedy delete No assertion of notability. Deli nk 18:30, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
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The result of the debate was to Keep the article. --Konst.ableTalk 12:07, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Altar Boys

Bandcruft. No assertion of notability. This seems like a vanity page about an insignificant band. No reliable sources. Not verifiable. Delete The Crying Orc 17:58, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

  • Comment: Possible bad-faith nomination. See here. Limetom 02:43, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Neutral I am not well-versed in Christian music. The article really doesn't make much of a claim for notability, but they do have several albums listed - anybody know if they are major label releases? GassyGuy 07:41, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Opinion I am fairly knowledgeable about Christian rock, having heard a lot of it growing up. These were only major label releases as far as the Christian market was concerned - these guys spent a number of years on Word Records, which is the biggest fish in that pond (example - Word Records also has Amy Grant, Michael W. Smith, Phil Keaggy, Randy Stonehill, all artists who saw some fame or recogition in the secular arena). This band is still around; I saw them perform in 1987 and 2000, and actually thought their 2000 performance was better. I understand there is a movement underway to document the history of the rock and punk subgenres of Christian music and their influence, I hope for posterity's sake this entry won't be deleted. Insignificant? They were an influence on everyone from MXPX to other new bands I'm sure haven't been heard of yet.... Rick 05:23, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep if their significant influence on Christian rock is indeed true. Even without that confirmation, they appear to have released at least two albums on a record label... —EdGl 20:54, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep Have released albums on notable indie labels. And in response to the nomination, "The Altar Boys helped pioneer Christian rock music." is an assertation of notability. --Marriedtofilm 22:16, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
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The result was delete. - Mailer Diablo 16:38, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] 4-4-1

Bandcruft. No assertion of notability. This seems like a vanity page about an insignificant band. No reliable sources. Not verifiable. Delete The Crying Orc 17:58, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

  • Comment: Possible bad-faith nomination. See here. Limetom 02:45, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
  • delete band has a weak allmusic.com entry. However, I did a search and found onlythis link from a recent Chritian music festival clearly shows that the information in the article is outright false. Some examples: Article claims band is over 20 years old, this site claims band is 3 years old. Article claims band is from California, this site claims band is from Cleveland. Also, as written up at Faithfest, 4-4-1 is known for playing coffee houses around the Cleveland area. There MAY be 2 different bands with that name, but I couldn't find ANY information on a California-based 1980's CCM band with the name 4-4-1, and only found information on the one I site above. Sorry, even if AfD was in bad faith (not to say that it was) the subject is still not notable. --Jayron32 05:14, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Weak Delete. Whether the nominator holds a grudge or not, whether nominating in bad faith or not, this particular nomination is nevertheless valid. The external link in the article, however, is consistent with the article; I suspect Jayron32 is referring to a different band called 4-4-1. Nevertheless, there is no reason to have Wikipedia serve as a surrogate web site for a band of questionable notability when its own web site will do just fine. -Amatulic 23:02, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
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The result was delete. - Mailer Diablo 16:39, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The Silence (Band)

Non-notable, unsigned band. Lots of bands with this name listed in AMG, but none of them seem to be this one. —Chowbok 17:59, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

  • Speedy delete per nom. -Amatulic 22:53, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete as insufficiently notable per WP:BAND, and no credible, third-party sources as required by WP:V. -- Satori Son 05:14, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
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The result was delete. - Mailer Diablo 16:39, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Barricades

Bandcruft. No assertion of notability. The article reads as if the author knows the people personally, which does make one wonder... Fails WP:NMG The Crying Orc 18:03, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

  • Delete. Article has been around since 2005 and still reads like a vanity page. -Amatulic 23:05, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Obvious delete. Gamaliel 23:05, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete non-notable band.--Tbeatty 06:35, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
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The result was delete. - Mailer Diablo 16:39, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Uoxc:l

Non-notable branch to UOX born yesterday (september), already dead today (according to UOX history by author) Jestix 07:08, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

  • Delete - no evidence of notability. MER-C 07:40, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
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 Please add new discussions below this notice. Thanks, Whispering 18:10, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete for sure. The introduction doesn't even give me a clue what the article is supposed to be about! Useless article for just about anyone but the author. Massive cleanup or deletion required. -Amatulic 23:07, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
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The result was keep. Can't sleep, clown will eat me 22:09, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Mathcore

Bandcruft. Very little noteability in fact could be a made up gnre no citations given The Crying Orc 18:16, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

  • Delete I see no evidence that this is anything but a little used, tongue-in-cheek mini-slice of a musical genre. Deli nk 18:26, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep. Google searching confirms the existence of this genre although people seem tight-lipped about what it is. It shows up in some books including this one. Put some cleanup tags on it and refer it to interested editors. Gazpacho 00:55, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep. As above. Also, it cannot be "bandcruft", it would be "genrecruft" it if were such. Limetom 02:09, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete please. SchmuckyTheCat 07:10, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
    • Why? Gazpacho 08:55, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep. it is an actual genre. Bloodredchaos 15:48, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Speedy keep, bad faith nom. User has done the same thing with Christian music articles and I'm sure will continue until blocked. Recury 23:20, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep Actual genre. Needs work and sourcing, not deletion. Vic sinclair 00:18, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep — Search engines show existentance of this (niche) genre. Agree with Vic that they page would greatly benefit from some sourcing. -- moe.RON talk | done | doing 23:27, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep I came from outside Wikipedia to find out more about this genre - I was looking for interesting Bass Guitar music on http://www.bassmasta.net/site-map_styles.php and noticed it (as Math Metal). (me: http://www.bean.geek.nz)
  • Keep Math good. Deletionists bad. 152.163.100.7 22:21, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep. The genre exists & is not negligible. I don't even see why this was listed on AfD. --ND 21:44, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
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The result was no consensus for deletion. --Sam Blanning(talk) 17:38, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Stannington First School

Non-notable primary school (to "year 4"), fails test in Wikipedia:Schools. └ OzLawyer / talk ┐ 18:19, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

  • Delete per nom. TJ Spyke 21:40, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete does not meet WP:SCHOOL. Catchpole 06:45, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
    • WP:SCHOOLS is not a deletion criteria. If you read the page you'll see it recommends merging the information into an article about the parent community. — RJH (talk) 21:36, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
      • Well you try merging it into Stannington, Morpeth then. We don't have an article on the parent community. Catchpole 07:24, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Merge into local community or school district page per WP:SCHOOLS. — RJH (talk) 21:36, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Merge  ALKIVAR™ ☢ 22:30, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Merge per the above. --Myles Long 22:47, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Merge to local community or school district article per RJHall. Yamaguchi先生 02:38, 22 October 2006
  • Comment Again where exactly do you propose merging this article to? Catchpole 10:55, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment Technically, it could be merged to Morpeth, Northumberland, which is the "real" parent community, Stannington being an unincorporated area, I believe. But this idea of merging unimportant information bothers me. Does information on a single primary school really belong in an article on the town it's part of? I certainly don't see how it could advance the article in any way, and don't see why someone who cares about that article won't immediately remove it as inappropriate. └ OzLawyer / talk ┐ 14:14, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete Is a not notable primary school with no assertion of notability that doesn't even meet the proposed WP:SCHOOL which was highly generous to school inclusion. JoshuaZ 17:07, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
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The result was delete. - Mailer Diablo 19:11, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Tech Center TV Show

Lacking verifiable content fintler 14:38, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

  • Delete. Public access television. Vectro 04:23, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
 AFD relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so that consensus may be reached.
 Please add new discussions below this notice. Thanks, Whispering 18:20, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete Even the link to the show's webpage is a broken link to a personal web page. I'd give it the benefit of the doubt and say without prejudice against recreation, if sources can be found in the future. --RoninBKTCE# 02:36, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
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The result was Keep. KrakatoaKatie 05:16, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Soul Embraced

Bandcruft. Non-notable band; fails WP:NMG. No sources, assertion of why they should be here, etc. The Crying Orc 18:25, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

  • Comment: possible bad-faith nomination. User is nominating as many Christian Metal-related articles as possible, including Christian Metal itself. Check here. wikipediatrix 21:24, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep Mega notable. [a google search] turns up that their CDs are availible on MANY retail websites; unlike other non-notable subjects, there are several first-page google pages that point to the band's notability. this one and this one and this one. Also, the connections to the very notable band Evanescence also improbve this subject's notability. --Jayron32 05:23, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep like Jayron32. Gazpacho 23:55, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. Can't sleep, clown will eat me 00:27, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Global city

Non-notable concept, although the individual cites are notable. No real reason to believe all the references (which suggest notability) are referring to the same definition, categorization, or list. Possible copyright infringement. (The list and criteria are copyrighted unless that copyright is explitly waived.) Possible alternative actions would be a merge to Loughborough University or a move to Globalization and World Cities Study Group and Network, somehow destroying (at least) this redirect, if not all the redirects pointing into it. — Arthur Rubin | (talk) 18:27, 16 October 2006 (UTC) See below — Arthur Rubin | (talk)

  • Conditional Keep This article comes across as an advertising platform for the benefit of a specific university group and an associated conference. Much or even most of the content should be removed as insufficiently notable for the weight given to it. Barely any mention is given to the "seminal work" which coined the term compared with the Loughborough content, and there is a lack of broader discourse references. Having said that, I think the term does have currency in geography, and I would support a keep based on a rewrite addressing the issues. If there is serious copyright infringement too, than the rewrite needs to be even more comprehensive. If it doesn't occur, than I vote weak delete Bwithh 21:54, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Conditional Keep I'd like too see a rewrite of the article since the subject is very intresting. --Krm500 22:10, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • I'd go along with the above: either rewrite substantially, to get rid of the "world cities research begins and ends in Loughborough" "undue weight" (if not rampant self-promotion) issues, or else rescope and rename it as a GaWC article, and start world city and/or global city from a clean slate. Alai 22:14, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep The concept is notable, and the term 'global city' is thrown around a lot in economics, political science, geography and international studies. However, I agree with Bwithh and Krm that there needs to be some changes; I'm not convinced that Loughborough University has a monopoly on the concept so I believe the article should be a bit more comprehensive, offering different ways of conceptualizing what precisely constitutes a global city by looking to other sources outside GaWC. --The Way 22:17, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Strongly Keep. per the way. But. No need to invet an Original Research there. GaWC is ver very accurate for now. If some new rating will appear from another famous research company it should be added. Not replaced. As of now - leave it as it is. Elk Salmon 00:39, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
    • Change description of !vote to Keep if cleaned up. I didn't say WP:OR, as GaWC is notable enough. However, I cannot do the cleanup. "Leave it as it is" is not an option. — Arthur Rubin | (talk) 00:50, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
    • (ec)I don't believe anyone's arguing for original research, just toning down the rewriting of the history of the concept to make it entirely about GaWC. The current version just about implies they invented the terminology. Different "ratings" are another matter entirely, and not at all the point. Alai 00:55, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
      • there is no any other reliable source that could provide own point of view. therefore no need for changes until new sources will appear. as of name article - it is settled term. there is no necessary to drop it. Elk Salmon 01:38, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
        • Um, I'm pretty sure that GaWC doesn't have an intellectual monopoly on this term. It may not even be a major player in the discourse. Bwithh 01:40, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Strong keep: We chose to use the global city concept at Version 0.5 to guide us in what cities to select for our CD release (we wanted 100-200 of the most important cities). We are working through our list at Wikipedia:Version 0.5/Global cities, and in reviewing them (I've read ~100) I'd guess I've seen reference to this page (more usually as a "world city") on about half of them. I can accept that the article should reflect the consensus view of this concept. Is the Loughborough definition considered the most authoritative (I have no clue)? If so, there's no harm in emphasizing that, but other significant viewpoints should definitely be represented. Walkerma 05:02, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
    • Note that that's an argument from respectively no evidence at all, and purely internal evidence. Nor does it address the current contents, which while not strictly a matter for AfD, seems to be the predominant concern. Alai 20:50, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Conditional keep - this article has a place but the GaWC data should be chopped considerably, especially as it don't even purport to list Global cities generally, only by financial criteria. The concept is a subjective and woolly one and attempts to quantify it are therefore inherently POV, even if they are referenced to the hilt. SteveRwanda 15:07, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep and cleanup. This is a notable concept which has much currency in contexts unrelated to Loughborough University. Merchbow 15:47, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep - AfD should not be used as an alternative to a clean-up tag. - jc37 21:09, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep - Just because something is a theory or not commonly accepted as the standard shouldn't be the reason for the subject to be disregarded, but should just be noted as such. Other issues such as POV is not the issue to be discussed here. --Wirbelwind 02:32, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep, after cleanup per above. -- ExpImptalkcon 11:48, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Strong keep I liked the subject.Rectify any errors but do keep the article.Mahawiki 14:22, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
    • "I liked the subject" is not a valid reason to keep. — Arthur Rubin | (talk) 14:47, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment. I don't think the article is salvagable, but I wouldn't mind being proved wrong. I also hope the closing admin notes that almost all the votes so far are "Keep, but cleanup", and wouldn't block another AfD if cleanup doesn't happen within a few months. — Arthur Rubin | (talk) 14:47, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
I disagree that there is something that needs to be removed (cleaned up) from the article. There are some old data, but it's noted that it is old. Table with cities of most is not an OR. GaWC data of course should not be deleted. It has fully verified source. Elk Salmon 07:02, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep (unqualified) - Cleanup needs are a separate issue and apply to a large portion of Wikipedia articles. The concept and subject is valid. A cleanup requirement is not sufficient basis for removal. --Serge 21:50, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
I fully agree, the fact that this concept is relevant in a number of fields of study is sufficient to keep this article from being deleted, period. The fact that it may be in need of changes, even substantial ones, has no bearing whatsoever on whether or not it should be deleted. Someone could make the case to add a POV tag or a cleanup tag, but these are not problems to be addressed here; these separate tags exist for those problems which alone implies that such articles are not ones that warrant deletion. --The Way 04:22, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Strong Keep The subject itself is important and has been the subject of many academic texts. The current over reliance on a single source means the article should be expanded not deleted. --Polaron | Talk 01:43, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep --Fsiler 04:27, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Conclusion. I suspect the case could be considered as closed now. Absolute consensus against of deleting the article. Elk Salmon 07:08, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
    • Actually, I disagree, although I'm sure it could be closed under WP:SNOW. There are too many "Conditional Keep" votes to say that the consensus is "keep". As I said above in one of the comments, I don't think an acceptable article could be written, and there is consensus that this article is not acceptable under this name. The concept and GaWC's interpretation of it must be separated.
      • look at votes. there is total consensus that article should not change its name or be removed. Elk Salmon 21:13, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

No need to continue. 14 to keep, 1 to delete. Absolute consensus.
8 - to keep without changes (with notofications that cleanup leads to POV).
6 - to keep and cleanup (not all said what exactly).
1 - to delete
AfD tag removed.Elk Salmon 21:20, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

Improper removal of the AfD tag reverted. Further comments, though the article starts with: <!-- PLEASE READ BEFORE EDITING: * Consult http://www.lboro.ac.uk/gawc/rb/rb5.html and http://www.lboro.ac.uk/gawc/rb/rb146.html for the point ranking. * Do NOT arbitrarily add cities or move them around.[[Image:Example.jpg]][[Image:Example.jpg]] * The images on this pages are sorted by 1. Number of points 2. Alphabetically for equal Number of points -->

Unless that is removed, the article must be moved. The name is wrong. — Arthur Rubin | (talk) 00:33, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

Arthur Rubin. The result is a consensus against the deletion of the article - 14 vs 1. Case is closed. Article should not be moved as well. The article is based on backed up and verified sources. Your personal opinion is OR. Sources are not. Elk Salmon 01:23, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
Afd does not close until an administrator closes it. The AfD template should not be altered by anyone until the AfD discussion has been properly closed by an admin using the closure format. AfDs cannot be closed by non-admins, and should not be closed on the basis of a 14-1 advantage or even 15-1 including my vote). DJR (T) 10:48, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
It's ok if there is a real case. But look - there are 0 votes for deletion. It's rater - there is no case. But ok, i'll wait for admin. Elk Salmon 12:03, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Weak keep - The problem with this article is that the term "global city" is a very important one in terms of usage in human geography, (development) economics and wider social sciences. To this degree, it is important that Wikipedia has an article about the terminology. However, it is an incredibly POV term and its usage naturally sees individuals wanting to "big up" their city - a look at the page's history illustrates countless edits to this degree. GaWC are the only electronic source that attempt to actually define the term, and thus can provide a definitive list of "global cities". It would be nice if there were other sources so that this article could take a more generalised approach, but they do not seem to be readily available, and hence why the article has taken its present form of regurgitated information from the source. Changes could be made, but it is essential that the article remains neutral, and this cannot be done unless based on external sources. DJR (T) 10:48, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Withdraw nomination. Replace my recommendation to move and/or cleanup. I'll submit a move request when this AfD is closed. (I don't think it's fair for me to close the AfD myself. Also, I'm not sure "conditional keep" counts as a "keep" for the purpose of a speedy close.) — Arthur Rubin | (talk) 00:02, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
    • Read all comments. Majority are against of deletion or moving. Also i'll say - it's not a prerogative of a poll. The article content is based on fully backed up and verified sources. Only i can think now that you have something personal against it. Just drop it. Backed up articles cannot be moved just because of personal feeling. It's OR. Elk Salmon 06:42, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
      • You wrote most of the comments. The majority seem to be requesting a major rewrite (eliminating the lists) or a move. If the editors had noticed the comment in the header, it might have been a larger majority. — Arthur Rubin | (talk) 09:55, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
        • No need for sarcasm. There are at least 18 votes now. Most means most of their comment. Also. I'll repeat, what DJR has said already. I can rephrase. If you want to expand an article you are welcome to do it without any polls. But you should write new sections only basing on verified sources. In other way it will be original research. Also - you cannot delete some sections, even via poll, just because you have some personal dislike to them. They are based on verified sources thus have all rights to be represented in this article. Elk Salmon 13:05, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Weak keep - As per DJR above. --Kralizec! (talk) 06:30, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Strong keepThe difference between "global" city and "world" city is pure semantics. I don't have a preference, but when I type "world cities" in the search box I get nothing. "World city" redirects to tthis page.
  • keep and clean (I support the deletion of categories such as "Beta world cities") this article is affecting the quality of wikipedia, some city articles are using this a a reference to justify some things. The article is POV, but should not be deleted. If some other study from other university confirs this then it would be a proper reference. Add another studies to the article.--Pedro 21:46, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. Can't sleep, clown will eat me 07:15, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Niger uranium documents

Note per NPOV concerns I have renamed the article to Niger uranium documents. Let's focus on the topic, not the name which is trivially fixed. Derex 03:52, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

Unsalvagably POV article. The term "yellowcake forgery" gets only 265 Ghits [32], practically all of which are from Wikipedia itself, Wikipedia mirrors or left-wing blogs. The title itself is an NPOV violation, as are the opening paragraphs, both of which treat the "forgery" as settled fact, even though the UK still insists to this day the documents were accurate. In any case, the article is largely a laundry list of data points that don't provide any direct evidence to back up its accusations, and are in some cases self-contradictory. I believe Wikipedia should have an article about the yellowcake incident, but this article is so hopelessly one-sided that I think it's best that it get an official delete consensus so that a new one can be built from scratch; any attempt at major editing to this one will just lead to POV-based rv wars. Aaron 18:30, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

  • Further Comment: And yes, I'll put myself on the spot here; if this gets deleted, I will personally write the replacement article - a real one, not just some two-line stub - within seven days of deletion. If I don't, I'll go to WP:DRV myself and request the restoration of this article as-is. --Aaron 18:49, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
    • Comment Why not just go ahead, be bold, move and rewrite it yourself? --RoninBKTCE# 02:39, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
      • Comment: Because, as I said in my nom, I think that will do nothing but start an edit war. A successful AfD will at least allow me to rewrite it with some consensus behind me. --Aaron 20:34, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
        • Comment: This is absurd. This is not what AFD is for. First, try editing the article in the normal process. You say you'll get hopeless POV battles, but you haven't tried. Are you saying here that others are POV, or yourself? If other's that's pretty much the ultimate violation of WP:AGF considering you haven't discussed it at all over there. If it is a POV-battle, then you take it to RFC or to mediation. This is simply not a valid delete reason, and the nomination is an end-run around standard Wikipedia procedure. You have not placed a POV tag on the article. You have not made a single edit on the talk page. You have not specified a single POV complaint other than the title, which is now changed (it was verfiably a forgery anyway, so that wasn't even a good reason). Also, if we're AFD'ing things for NPOV, how long do you expect your own personal re-write to last before it gets AFD'd? What exactly are your credentials that you think AFD should "endorse" you personally for a re-write, as seems to be your rationale? Derex 04:02, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment Actually, I don't think the UK stands behind these documents. The UK says that Iraq was trying to acquire Uranium from an African nation (not Niger but probably Congo or South Africa). These articles (Yellowcake forgery, sixteen words, Plame affair, aluminum tubes etc, etc) are used by some to confuse the facts. It's a shame because there are encyclopedic value to some of these but it is lost in an attempt to smear UK and and US politicians and governments. --Tbeatty 18:39, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment: Before posting this, I attempted to find an actual statement from the Blair government saying anything along the lines of "Nope, we were had," but I couldn't find one. If anyone can find such a statement (and I mean a real statement from the current UK government, not an allegation from some mid-level hack), I'll be happy to scratch that line from my nom. The article's still hopelessly POV regardless, sadly. I spent a half hour trying to figure out a way to fix it, and couldn't come up with one that I didn't think wouldn't end in a nasty edit war. --Aaron 18:47, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
    • Comment: did you bother to try to find a single article or statement from the Blair govt (or any other credible source) suggesting these documents were not cheap forgeries? Where do you substantiate the claim that the UK still thinks these docs are real? This is the most bizarre AfD I've ever seen.--csloat 08:14, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment:If you simply looked at the Butler Review (i.e., an inquiry committee within the British government), which is linked in the article, you would have seen multiple statements acknowledging the forgery, including this one: "The forged documents were not available to the British Government at the time its assessment was made, and so the fact of the forgery does not undermine it."[33] Emphasis mine. Since I'm not the first person to bring this up here, I'm wondering why you have yet to strike that line from your nomination. *Sparkhead 02:57, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete I think the article may be salvagable, but the title is unsalvagably POV. — Arthur Rubin | (talk) 18:43, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
    • Changed to Neutral after the move, but would prefer the redirect to be Deleted. — Arthur Rubin | (talk) 21:17, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep Maybe move to a new name and rewrite a bit. I think it's definatly a topic wikipedia should cover though.--Peephole 19:12, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete and salt the page title. I wouldn't mind seeing a Yellowcake Incident, or some similarly named article, providing it was NPOV, and well sourced. But this article is certainly POV, and the title prevents it from being anything other than that. - Crockspot 20:27, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
Comment All that salt can raise the blood pressure. So many articles needing salting!Edison 05:17, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Rename Then edit so as it to make it more encyclopedic and NPOV. It certainly is important enough for an article and several citations are included to mainstream newspapers of the US and other countries as well as US government investigations, so the material is there for a good article. It would be better to edit this into a better article than to delete it and create a new article from scratch. I can't see why a new article on the same subject, even with a new title and a new creator, would be immune to the edit wars predicted for this one. "Yellowcake incident" is probably a better title than "Alleged attempts by Iraq to buy uranium from Niger" which pretty much represents how it was described in the press.Edison 00:00, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment: I'm having trouble understanding why the phrase "Yellowcake Forgery" is controversial when no one in the US government denies that the documents were forgeries.
Speech: The White House
Transcript of Ari Fleischer’s Press Conference
Recorded Monday 07 July 2003 and Transcribed By Joshua Micah Marshall
FLEISCHER: Yes, I see nothing that goes broader that would indicate that there was no basis to the President's broader statement. But specifically on the yellow cake, the yellow cake for Niger, we've acknowledged that that information did turn out to be a forgery.
bragova 21:42, 16 October 2006
Oops. I guess it is not controversial so far as Bush and most opponents of his policies are concerned. Who does that leave still denying it is a forgery? Any evidence the British still claim the documents are genuine, despite the reported anachronisms? The Butler Review by the British on prewar intelligence says "the forged documents were not available to the British Government at the time its assessment was made.” So it seems hard to find any government still claiming the documents were authentic. Edison 04:56, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
Comment One point is that forgery is a crime, and without either a conviction or a confession from the individual alleged to have committed the forgery it's best just in the legal sense to avoid the word "forgery". Some American government droid saying the paper is a forgery is not proof that it is. A sworn confession from the specific individual who put pen to paper (or fingers to keyboard) might be. --Charlene.fic 12:39, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
Comment This document has been described as a forgery by the White House Press Secretary as well as the British commission cited above. "Forgery" is more than a legal term requiring an indictment before it can be used. It remains an appropriate term here.Edison 14:44, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
Comment I agree that "forgery" is fine in the title, as refering to the documents. It's the "yellowcake" that bothers me. I'd prefer a more encyclopedic name. — Arthur Rubin | (talk) 20:20, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep (but clean-up, or even rewrite as per Aaron). As the article says, certain documents "proving" that Saddam Hussein's regime tried to purchase yellowcake from Niger turned out to be forged. Hence the current name is appropriate.
    OTOH, the article should make it clearer that there is other evidence for that attempted purchase which has not been discredited. (For one presentation of some of that evidence, see here and here. See also Joseph C. Wilson's report to the CIA.) Hence the current content needs lots of work from some brave editors. Cheers from a not-that-brave CWC(talk) 08:06, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment I'm not too sure what to do, but I think if this is closed as keep, it should also definitely get the {{cleanup-afd}} template placed at the top by the AFD closer. I'm torn between opining delete and cleanup-afd. The article looks like a WP:NOR violation as a synthesis to make a point, rather than being the balanced, encyclopedic portrayal of the subject that it should be, which makes me almost ready to opine that deletion is the right answer. GRBerry 20:56, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete. Hopelessly POV and violative of Wikipedia policy prohibiting Synthesis of published material serving to advance a position, and uncorrectible because of POV-advocacy by a dedicated bunch of Axe-Grinding. Morton devonshire 22:23, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete Having read through the article and talk page more thoroughly, it is quite clear that this is a WP:NOR violation as a "synthesis to make a point". Given the talk page history, I'm don't believe that Wikipedia editors are currently capable of maintaining an article that adheres to our policies on WP:NPOV and WP:NOR on this subject. Normally NPOV violations aren't reasons for deleting, but they are if the violation can't be repaired. GRBerry 16:59, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
    • Would you mind listing a specific NPOV violation on the talk page over there. It's one thing to assert that they can't be neutral. But you haven't even taken the effort to point one out. These supposed hopeless POV problems don't leap off the page at me, so specifiying a few for discussion before condemning the article is not too much to ask I think. As to OR, I see many citations to mainstream news sources, so identifying a few parts which are OR would also be helpful. Derex 05:05, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep: I hate deleting an article for NPOV violations. The better course is nearly always to edit it into shape. Although GRBerry sounds convincing. I'm willing to help in recrafting it. There are some complications here:
  1. The Yellowcake forgery was a forgery, and that's not POV, that's just fact.
  2. Some statements were made by the Bush administration saying that Bush's comments on yellowcake from Africa shouldn't have been put in the State of the Union speech (those White House statements need to be exactly sourced, I don't think they are in the article, but I do think they came from the White House spokesman). Despite the fact that the Bush administration said it made a mistake, there's plenty of evidence on the record indicating no such mistake was made and Bush's comment in the State of the Union message was accurate. This is a confusing situation and the article, because of constant POV pushing within it, just makes it more confusing.
  3. The Butler report does reject the idea that the yellowcake forgery was what British intelligence relied on. That needs to be high up in the story, now it's near the bottom.
  4. The article has a statement casting doubt on the Butler report. No original research, please. Just cite someone else casting doubt -- and then be ready for cited statements in support of the integrity of the Butler commission.
  5. The larger point about Saddam's regime and yellowcake is whether or not he was trying to get it. There needs to be a statement up high saying that there are assertions that he was trying to get it and those assertions are independent of the forgery. Perhaps this whole article should be merged into a larger article about that. In the long run, the yellowcake forgery may not be notable enough for an article of its own, although I think it is at this point (and probably for as long as we're in Iraq).Noroton 04:52, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete per the NPOV issue. I would like to say keep but I would be kidding myself to believe after surviving an AfD that the editors holding the article in its current form will simply allow it to be rewritten in a less POV manner, then it wouldnt serve its purpose would it? I think this should be added possibly to other articles however covering reasons given by the administration for gonig to war, or broken up and inserted into the appropriate larger articles, but its current state is misleading and I have seen too many articles on AfD with promises to fix NPOV violations just to have those same authors not change the article because "it passed AfD, so its fine" --NuclearZer0 12:20, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment I'm not sure what to do here. The article should definitely be moved and at least partially rewritten but I'm not convinced that deleting and recreating is the best approach. Perhaps a straw poll on renaming on the articles talk page would have been the better approach? GabrielF 15:26, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep and edit. Gamaliel 21:29, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep, edit, and rename. Deletion of the article and salting the name will not prevent any future edit war, it'll just move the potential conflict to an article with a different name. Nothing is stopping Aaron from writing a replacement article in his user space and the proposing it as a replacement. This is a content dispute. Take it through the dispute resolution process. --Bobblehead 01:53, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Strong keep I renamed it for npov; trivial to fix so certainly not an AFD issue. But, the topic is absolutely without question notable. This nomination borders on the absurd. Extremely well-cited. Could use some polishing, which would be a much more constructive use of time than debating an AFD on a clearly notable topic. Nominator even concedes notability, with "promise" to re-write his own version. Umm, that's a new use for AFD. States it is hopeleslly POV, but has not even placed a POV tag on the page, and has not even made a single edit to the talk page. An absolutely preposterous abuse of Wikipedia procedure. Derex 03:50, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Strong Keep as per Noroton and POV should be one of the last reason an article should be deleted, when it is based on factual events. Maybe time could be better spent re-writing it, instead of stalking these articles to death. Khukri (talk . contribs) 07:32, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Strong Keep: as per Noroton. Clean up the POV, and lets put a stop to what appears to be a concerted effort to purge Wiki of articles that are embarassing to Bush and the conservatives. NBGPWS 07:41, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete"Well-cited" sources dispute this article's content as dubious.--Scribner 07:46, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
    • Question I don't really understand your comment. Are you saying that an important (well-cited) source has commented on this article? If so, who? Fishboy 09:08, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Strongest Keep: Important historical issue, still in the news, extensively documented; named for AfD for purely POV reasons. If you have POV issues, discuss them on the article talk page; AfD is not for this purpose. Fully agree with Derex above - "An absolutely preposterous abuse of Wikipedia procedure." Could not have said it better myself. Scribner's claim above - "well-cited sources dispute content as dubious" - great reason to keep the article and cite the sources (though I find the claim dubious to be honest).--csloat 08:09, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep. Another instance of trying to use AfD to sledge-hammer a neutrality dispute. JamesMLane t c 09:32, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep and edit - AFD is neither Requests for comment nor Third opinion sought. Smack Aaron with a yellowtail for well-intentioned abuse of process, and get back to editing, please. :) -- nae'blis 16:16, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep Name change is deifinitely a step in the right direction, and from here it's just a matter of bringing the article up to snuff.--Rosicrucian 18:19, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep now that the name has been changed.--Strothra 22:29, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep Name change good move, just needs some cleanup. Trying to state that calling the documents a "forgery" is in any way POV is ridiculous, all reliable sources, including the US government, acknowledge the forgery. Another apparent abuse of the AfD process. *Sparkhead 22:22, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep Sparkhead is spot on... everyone admits this was a forgery. Cleanup dont delete.  ALKIVAR™ ☢ 22:29, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep per Nae'blis, less the fish slapping part. Yamaguchi先生 01:31, 22 October 2006
  • Keep "Yellowcake is in common use in magazines and blogs about this topic. This term has historical signifigance. Don't delete soley because of NPOV -- improve the article instead. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 67.189.111.74 (talk • contribs) 04:47, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep - interesting to read the debate; i certainly side with the view that this should not have been brought to AfD to begin with Mujinga 23:32, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment expanding on my "vote" above.
We will not be able to write an article about the "Niger Uranium Documents" for decades, until those documents are declassified. We can and should have an article about some of those documents, because there is plenty of information on the public record. The documents in question (1) came from Italian intelligence, (2) stated that Saddam's regime had tried to buy yellowcake from Niger and (3) were later exposed as forgeries. Hence "Yellowcake forgeries" is an accurate title. That some people attempt to tar all the intelligence regarding Saddam's attempts to acquire Nukes with the forgery brush is not an argument for deleting this article.
OTOH, this article is currently in a bad state, and needs lots of POV and OR removed. See the insightful comment by Noroton above. Cheers, CWC(talk) 04:47, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
No need to wait decades; the forged documents were made publicly available in 2003. I agree though that "yellowcake forgeries" is a perfectly acceptable and accurate title.--csloat 05:00, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment Yes, the documents were forged, as acknowledged by the Bush administration and the British government, and yes, the forged documents were about yellowcake from Africa. So what is the problem with the original title? There is no implication that Bush or Blair forged them.Edison 05:15, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
Thanks for that link, csloat. Can we put that in the article?
I see my preceding comment wasn't clear enough. Western intelligence agencies have lots of "Niger Uranium Documents", only a few of which have become public. It is impossible to write a good article about those that are still secret, but we can write one about the ones which are now public — which were forgeries about yellowcake. (BTW, I've seen speculation that the forgeries were a simple but lucrative confidence trick, inspired perhaps by nearby confidence tricksters.) Cheers, CWC(talk) 05:58, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
Agreed, this stuff should be in the article. I'm not sure what other "Niger uranium documents" you're referring to; unless we want an article about the history of uranium transactions from Niger but that really isn't what this article was ever about. It's about documents that show that Iraq tried to purchase uranium from Niger in the leadup to the Iraq war, that were cited as evidence that Saddam sought such uranium. Since Saddam didn't seek such uranium, no such documents exist, and the ones that do exist are obvious forgeries. There are no other classified documents that I am aware of on this matter. (It is true Saddam sought such purchases in 1981, and there are probably documents about that, but that was never what this article was about). There is a little side show about the Butler Report that some conservatives apparently still harp on about, but the consensus of opinion among experts looking seriously at this issue appears to be that it is a bunch of hooey. Certainly I haven't heard of anyone suggesting that there are other Niger uranium documents lurking somewhere that show that Saddam was actually seeking uranium from Niger all along.--csloat 06:58, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
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The result was Keep. KrakatoaKatie 05:20, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Sindizzy

Bandcruft. No assertion of notability. Fails WP:NMG. Lack of sources, etc. Only one album. The Crying Orc 18:34, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

  • Comment: possible bad-faith nomination. User is nominating as many Christian Metal-related articles as possible, including Christian Metal itself. Check here. wikipediatrix 21:23, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • keep a google search turns up CDs in wide release, reviews in the press, etc. etc. Definately notable. Also, connection to the highly notable band Stryper easily also establishes notability. That's 1-for-4 for this nominator. Hmm... --Jayron32 05:33, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep per above. —EdGl 00:10, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
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The result was Keep. KrakatoaKatie 05:22, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Sinai Beach

Bandcruft. No assertion of notability. Fails WP:NMG. Lack of sources, etc. The Crying Orc 18:35, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

  • Comment: possible bad-faith nomination. User is nominating as many Christian Metal-related articles as possible, including Christian Metal itself. Check here. wikipediatrix 21:22, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep The band does meet WP:NMG guidelines, as they have toured in both the US and the UK. While not relevant to the article as a whole, it also has sources cited. Also, see Wikipediatrix's above comment. Limetom 02:15, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep article is stubby and in need of expansion, but a google search turns up dozens of reviews by numerous sources, widely availible CDs, tour dates, etc. etc. The subject passes WP:MUSIC notability guidelines with flying colors. Nominator is 1-for-5 in his nominations of christian bands for deletion. Still trying to assume good faith here, but finding it harder. --Jayron32 05:38, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep per all above. —EdGl 00:07, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
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The result was No consensus. Betacommand (talk • contribs • Bot) 14:34, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] List of Salvation Army corps in the United Kingdom in 1900

A list of places where the Salvation Army was operating in 1900. Unencylopedic, largely useless, and wildly overspecific. Delete. Dylan 18:38, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

  • I can't believe we have reached Salvationcruft, but I gotta call it as I see it. A current list of Salvation Army corps might be encyclopedic (though difficult to maintain). A list of 1900 corps is totally worthless to anyone not researching a history text on the Salvation Army. Delete. Alba 19:05, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete per above. RedRollerskate 19:05, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • retain - this list is encyclopedic. The intention is to have another list showing the situation at 2000 which would show how dramatically this once large organisation has shrunk in this country. A current list would be difficult to maintain, but a list based on fixed historical points in time would not be so. It is an important article on the basis of social history Rhyddfrydol 01:30, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
    • Comment If the point is to demonstrate how greatly the organization has grown, then why isn't a sentence that says "In 2000, the Salvation Army had 400 chapters, whereas in 1900 they had only 50" sufficient? Dylan 01:41, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
  • I vote to keep this article - I found it very interesting, though incomplete. Very worthy of inclusion in Wikipedia. I'm sure people in some of the communities where there was a Salvation Army meeting place in 1900 would be interested to know this. Petepetepete 12:00, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
    • Comment Being "interesting" to you or anyone else is not a criterion for inclusion on Wikipedia. Could you please address the concerns that this violates Wikipedia:What Wikipedia is not that "Wikipedia is not a directory of everything that exists or has existed" and "Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of items of information" ? Dylan 14:52, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
      • is Dylan going to make an adverse comment on everyone with a different view to his? Rhyddfrydol 22:15, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
        • Comment My comments are not "adverse" or antagonistic; this being a discussion/debate, I'm trying to demonstrate that this article does not meet the criteria for inclusion, partially by pointing out that the objections you and Petepetepete have raised are not valid reasons for inclusion. Discussion is the point of AfD. If you think that the article does meet the criteria, then it shouldn't be a problem for you to argue as such. Dylan 02:09, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
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The result was delete. --Coredesat 07:30, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] List of film actors who have been shown wearing the Salvation Army uniform

Unencylopedic and pretty useless. Delete. Dylan 18:44, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

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The result was keep. Can't sleep, clown will eat me 00:31, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Winter Solstice (band)

Bandcruft. Non-notable band; fails WP:NMG. No sources, assertion of why they should be here, etc. The Crying Orc 18:41, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

  • I removed the speedy because they have two releases on a notable independent record label. In addition they are listed on All Music Guide, so weak keep from me. Punkmorten 18:52, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Weak keep per Punkmorten. --Slgr@ndson (page - messages - contribs) 19:11, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep, they satisfy WP:NMG with 2 albums on a notable indy. PJM 21:04, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep as per above, easily passes muster. Possible bad-faith nomination: user is nominating as many Christian Metal-related articles as possible, including Christian Metal itself. Check here. wikipediatrix 21:26, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep as per wikipediatrix. Limetom 05:05, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep This time a google search is harder to weed through, since it still brings up quite a few unrelated sites (mostly to the actual Winter Solstice, i.e. Dec 20). However, once again independant reviews, and CDs in wide release are fairly easy to find. I am leaning more and more to speedy-keeping this entire batch of AfD nominations. Except for one (4-4-1) they ALL seem verifiable and notable, easily passing WP:MUSIC baseline notability guidelines. --Jayron32 05:48, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
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The result was delete. Flowerparty☀ 21:34, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Amy Cohen Banker

Is she notable enough? She gets about 2,500 Google hits[34], but the article has no 3rd party sources. RedRollerskate 18:42, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

  • Counting Google hits is not research. Actually reading the pages that Google turns up is research. You did a search. Look at what came up and see whether any independent non-trivial sources exist. Uncle G 18:53, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
    • The thing is, I'm not familiar with the art world, so it's hard for me to say which of these sites counts as non-trivial. There's been some discussion of this on the article's talk page, and no one there is certain the subject is notable enough either. I'm not saying the article should definitely be deleted, just that no one who's edited the article (other than the subject herself) is sure that this belongs here and we'd like to get a few more perspectives. RedRollerskate 19:11, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
      • I couldn't find any hits in the Factiva news database. An artist called "Amy Banker" is quoted in a local Portland, Oregon newspaper article about choosing interesting Christmas presents was the most substantive I could find. She may be of some note in the artworld circles though. I'll try to see if any of the book references in the article are online. In any case, the article needs a lot of cutting down and editing if kept - currently it is a badly formatted resume. Bwithh 19:07, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
      • A non-trivial source is something that provides in-depth information on the subject, and is more than a simple directory listing. A detailed biography of this person would be non-trivial, for example. Uncle G 19:36, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
        • OK, I've read first hundred or so results on Google, and most of them appear to be directory listings, message boards, and her user profiles on sites like Blogger or Amazon. RedRollerskate 19:04, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete I'm getting zero hits on Google Scholar, Google Books, and Amazon (A9.com). I checked out the two books with ISBN numbers given in the article. The first turns out to be a book printed by a self-publisher, iUniverse)[35] making it a highly unreliable reference. The second book has been indexed by Amazon's "Search Inside" function, but unfortunately the word "Banker" does not appear in the book at all[36]. Also "Amy" and "Cohen" don't appear. Based on these verification failures, I'm voting delete unless much better evidence comes up Bwithh 19:20, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete per above evidence. --Slgr@ndson (page - messages - contribs) 19:12, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete per Bwithh's evidence. --Aaron 19:41, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete Bwithh did the homework. Appears NN. --Jayron32 05:51, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
    • change earlier vote to No Opinion I have come across a website through an extended discussion with someone close to the topic. I am temporarily recusing myself from a vote to see what the consensus is on this source: Link that references the artist in question --Jayron32 04:14, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
      • Good to see that further investigation going on. However, that page (I think you mean this one) is part of the "yourgallery" website which allows any artist to upload images with descriptions plus their bio and photo. (see also this). There are either 700+ish or 10,000+ish self-uploaded artists in the yourgallery database depending on whether you trust the ourmedia posting or the Guardian interview with Charles Saatchi more [37]. As it is intended to act partly as an art dealer's database, there does seem to be submission standards in place (though apparently its okay to show a non-art photo of your pet cat too as well as promotional posters for your own work). However, essentially it is a website where artists upload their own work and descriptions in an attempt to attract dealers/buyers. The Guardian newspaper ran a reader-based contest for the top 30 of the 10,000+ (or whatever) artists, but Banker did not make the list[38] Bwithh 04:53, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete as argued above. -- Hoary 07:39, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete per nom; doubtless a fine and accomplished person (per Talk), but... Robertissimo 09:57, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
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The result was delete. Flowerparty☀ 21:29, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Jennifer Is Dead

non-notable film; prod removed without discussion; Google search doesn't seem to reveal anything actually notable about the film - CobaltBlueTony 18:48, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

  • Weak delete Apparently a short film. Has an IMDB entry, but no mention of any awards, mainstream reviews, etc. Andrew Lenahan - Starblind 20:24, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete, per rationale above. PJM 21:01, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

This film is now available for viewing on Fangoriatv.com.

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The result was delete. --Coredesat 07:36, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] David Ruhl

Non-notable Canadian residence president YUL89YYZ 18:59, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

  • Delete - probably could have used {{db-bio}}, but certainly has no claim to notability. Unencyclopedic. -- Chabuk 19:10, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Looks like a Speedy candidate to me. Andrew Lenahan - Starblind 20:19, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete. CJCurrie 21:40, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Speedy Delete. NN biography. Agent 86 22:45, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Speedy Delete. My own Gater loyalities are strong, but Ruhl is not deserving of an encyclopedia article. - SimonP 20:32, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete it. Residence presidents do not merit articles; we don't even do articles for student union presidents, and they're far closer to notability than RAs are. Bearcat 18:17, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
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The result was keep. Can't sleep, clown will eat me 22:19, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] sissy

A dicdef, and nothing more. Voortle 19:13, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

  • Keep This is quite notable. It's not a good article, but it doesn't deserve to be deleted. Sparsefarce 19:34, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Weak Keep The article is pretty anemic, but it has potential, I think. Serpent-A 20:00, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep It's already more than a dicdef, and according to the Sissyphobia article, there's a whole book about it. Andrew Lenahan - Starblind 20:26, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep Notes on various usages and societal contexts take it beyond a dictdef. OhNoitsJamie Talk 20:39, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Speedy keep, now that I've merged the sissyphobia article into this article, making the sissy article sound more encyclopedic. Voortle 21:10, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Weak Delete - my concern is consistency in application of rules. WP:WINAD indicates that articles should not be usage guides, which this article basically is. In such cases, if an article is to be kept, I think that the burden of proof rests on proving worthiness, if not exceptional status. This article is completely unsourced, and would need to be very clearly not OR in order to meet a burden of proof to be kept. I say Weak Delete because I see a value in such articles, however the article's topic is not an exceptional case, so either the guidelines must be changed or this article must be deleted. Please note that I previously commented on the article's Talk page. NOTE: Voortle was making changes simultaneous to my slow thinking and typing. I think that the action of merging Sissyphobia was not ideal. "Sissyphopia" as a topic avoids usage issues that impinge on "sissy". I had previously reverted the redirect before seeing Voortle's comment here. I'm going to just save my comment now and wait for things to settle. ENeville 21:45, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep valid stub. SchmuckyTheCat 07:10, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep stub not a dicdef.--Nilfanion (talk) 21:10, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
  • "keep" the term, all kind of expressions should be consider in a really inclusive dictionary —Preceding unsigned comment added by 148.241.82.33 (talk • contribs)
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The result was delete per WP:BIO, WP:V/WP:RS, and WP:SPAM (the version that was nominated). The one reference in the stubified version is not about the subject of the article, which does not help its case. Article is being protected from re-creation until it can be shown that a neutral, non-self-promotional article can be written on this figure. --Coredesat 07:42, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Mimi Rothschild

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Spam Dcobranchi 19:29, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

  • Speedy Delete and marked as such. Wildthing61476 19:37, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Dcobranchi and/or others using that name have a several year history of spamming Ms. Rothschild (the subject of this article). She has been the recipient of repeated unwelcome contacts from individual(s) using "dcobranchi" and similar variations of this 'name'.—Preceding unsigned comment added by Hmandel (talk • contribs) — Hmandel (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
  • Somebody at an IP address registered to Learning By Grace, a company owned by Mimi Rothchild, originated the original wiki entry that was deleted as advertising. This one was edited to reflect Mimi's well documented history with charter schools in Pennsylvania. Mimi is not worthy of a Wikipedia entry and hopefully she has learned from this that Wikipedia is not a venue for self promotion. I support the nomination for deletion.--IAATM 20:36, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • At least one article on Ms. Rothchild has already been deleted. Both that one and this new one were originally written in the style of an advertisement, and thus were inappropriate. This one has been edited by several people to both tone down the advertising and to include reference to Ms. Rothschild's involvement with the controversial Einstein charter school, an important part of Ms. Rothschild's history in the cyber-education field. The information about Einstein was verifible and cited credible references. If there is to be an article on Ms. Rothchild (and I can see the argument either way), it must be written in a neutral point of view, the information must be verifiable, and it must not be a veiled advertisement for Ms. Rothchild's current projects. People who wish to make changes to this article are encouraged to use the talk page for the article to work out their differences. Stargirl7 21:02, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Mr. Mandel's (Ms. Rothschild's husband) claims above are fabrications, and even were they true, are irrelevant to the current discussion.
  • Sorry that was me. I forgot to sign in. --Dcobranchi 22:32, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete as non notable. But I have reason to believe this is some kind of nonsensical game by the nominator and the above commentors. All of the above who have red links on them have at some time contributed to this article [39]. Why did they not delete it at that time instead they reverted vandalism and expanded it as well. Also the above red link users have around 50-100% of their contribs to this particular article or related stuff. Check out all of their individual contribs.

Dcobranchi[40] Stargirl7[41] IAATM[42] --Ageo020 (Talk • Contribs) 00:00, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

    • Unfortunately, if you remove all of the advertising from the current version, there's not much left:

"Mimi Rothschild is a child’s rights advocate" - not verified or supported.

"has authored a total of seven books on children’s education including Cyberspace for Kids" - I'll accept this.

"is the founder of several, distinguished online homeschooling academies" - distingushed is clearly advertising, the rest is OK.

"all created to assist homeschooling families with their every educational need" - advertising.

"Mimi Rothschild has helped change the face of education" - unsupported opinion. "using her own homeschooling experiences with her eight children; both Mimi Rothschild and her husband have reshaped the homeschooling experience for families all over the world" - again, advertising and unsupported.

"The Jubilee Academy, The Grace Academy, and The MorningStar Academy are all online homeschooling academies" - this is fine.

"that offer homeschooling parents innovative tools to educate their children in the home environment." - as do any other online schools; this description of an online school is better put on a page about online schools.

"The homeschooling academies that are overseen by Rothschild offer courses that are rooted in the Christian faith and the teachings of Christ." - advertising, though it could be modified to work.

"With a firm focus on the child’s individual development, courses are structured to address the unique needs of every child. Each course provides the child with the opportunity to improve their socialization skills, better their ethics, and to openly learn about the world in a real world setting." - advertising, plus veering away from being about Ms Rothschild herself.

"The MorningStar Academy offers 140 courses and courses focus on subjects such as English, Mathematics, Science, Art, Music, Technology, Health, History, Global Languages, Bible Studies, and more. Each course is created to meet the needs of the child that has attained a particular grade level of proficiency, and all of the homeschooling courses offered at The MorningStar Academy are structured to meet the needs of homeschoolers at particular grade levels, from elementary to high school levels." - again, this is more about the school itself rather than Ms. Rothchild, and generally is typical of all such schools.

"Included with the course enrollment, homeschooling families are offered an array of educational services including a 180-week lesson plan, educational transcripts, regular progress reports, access to a video library, and academic counselors are readily available to assist homeschooling parents with questions and concerns. The Grace Academy follows suit and offers courses for children that are kindergarten level to high school level. Meanwhile, the Jubilee Academy online differs from the Morningstar Academy only in the fact that it offers homeschooling parents the opportunity to start their homeschoolers early with a pre-school program. Further, each of the academies offers CD Rom based lessons for homeschoolers, a course catalog for children of every age, interactive Internet activities, and avenues of digital and paperless learning." - this is pure advertising, and again is about the schools rather than Ms. Rothschild.

Taking out the advertising, you are left with: "Mimi Rothschild has authored a total of seven books on children’s education including Cyberspace for Kids and is the founder of several online homeschooling academies. The Jubilee Academy, The Grace Academy, and The MorningStar Academy are all online homeschooling academies." (This is of course leaving aside the question of whether Ms. Rothschild's involvement with Einstein should be included.) I believe this article should be either deleted as advertising, or modified to include only verifiable information about Ms. Rothschild. (Note that this article was "speedy-deleted" once as advertising, but was re-posted.)

  • Yes, it was speedy deleted the first time, and then Mimi (or her representative) decided to repost the advertisement. Since it was apparent at that point that we were playing whack-a-mole, several people decided to edit the article instead so that it was an accurate representation on Mimi Rothschild's contribution to cyber-schooling. You'll note that the article Mimi (or her representatives) object to is written in a neutral POV, and includes citations to other reputable sources for all included issues. The only version that has any business being on the wiki is the latest stargirl7 version. I and others are willing to agree to a delete just to make Mimi go away. However, what we won't stand for is her willful misrepresentation of her own history, thereby potentially misleading unknowing people that are researching her current cyber school operations. Anybody thinking about spending $2000 a year with her business has a right to know all the facts, not just the facts Mimi wants to advance.--71.161.45.242 00:49, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
  • That is me above - thought I was signed in. --IAATM 00:51, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
  • At a minimum Ms. Rothschild satisfies the "Google Test" - 79,000 results, first 10 results are all for the person in question, and, excluding the Answers.Com mirror of Wikipedia, all are different domains and different content. On the other hand, all that the most recent stargirl17 edit really tells you is what Rothschild's most basic and verifiable claims are, plus stuff about the Einstein controversy -- all of which can also be learned from scanning the first 10 entries on Google; the top result is anti-Rothschild, and the next down (after Wikipedia) is Rothschild's own site. I'm very slightly in favor of keeping the article, but given the amount of reverting going on, I'm not sure whether any kind of a stable page can be achieved -- and while she might be important enough for a short article, she's not important enough for everyone to keep worrying about it. Lloannna 03:51, 17 October 2006 (UTC)— Possible single purpose account: Lloannna (talk • contribs) has made few or no other contributions outside this topic.


  • If you put the name in quotes it is only 866 Google refs. More than a few of those hits are press releases for her academies.--Dcobranchi 14:42, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
  • So, to sum up the comments so far, I don't see anyone arguing that the article should definately be kept. It's pretty much all "delete"s or weak "keep"s, so current consensus seems to be "delete". Anyone want to chime in and make a stronger case for keeping this one? Stargirl7 19:25, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete After reading the various versions, it doesn't appear that there IS any way to make a strong argument for keeping this. Given the history of prior deletion, I don't see how this isn't just another attempt at self-promotion, albeit worded slightly differently. OddAud 20:31, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
  • This appears to be advertising. I would like to see it deleted but if it is kept, then I think all of the facts should be allowed to be included even if it is negative information. Jumpinginpuddles 15:48, 18 October 2006 (UTC)— Possible single purpose account: Jumpinginpuddles (talk • contribs) has made few or no other contributions outside this topic.
  • Delete and protect. Self promotion spamming, likely to be repeated if deleted without salting. -Amatulic 23:16, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
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The result was delete. --Coredesat 07:45, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Steven McKeown

Delete Non-notable semi-professional footballer playing for semi-professional club. Fails WP:BIO Forbsey 19:30, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

  • Delete Has never played professional first team football. Oldelpaso 20:33, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • This discussion has been included in WikiProject Football's list of football (soccer) related deletions. Oldelpaso 20:33, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete Non-notable football player, doesn't meet WP:BIO. Hello32020 21:10, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete per above. Punkmorten 06:29, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete per WP:BIO. This could have probably been prodded to be honest. Qwghlm 14:01, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete per nom. HornetMike 22:12, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete per nom. RFerreira 01:17, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep - Don't see the problem here player is a currently playing professional football at Scottish 2nd Division (third tier) Alloa Athletic - am I wrong? Granted article needs work. -- MLD · T · C · @:  11:07, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete - The Scottish Div 2 is not fully professional only their Premiership and Div 1 are. In England it is Premiership, Championship and Leagues 1 and 2 only. BlueValour 02:02, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
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The result was delete. —Cryptic 11:32, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] StarKingdoms

Does not meet WP:WEB. There are no sources listed and based on a google search, there aren't any to be found. Note:This is a re-nomination of this page. The original nomination resulted in a Keep. Original debate can be found here --Maelnuneb (Talk) 19:58, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

  • Keep I may never have heard of it, but it still gets under 50K on an Alexa traffic search, and I don't see any real reason to change the decision made earlier. FrozenPurpleCube 20:27, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
    • Comment: Alexa rankings are a decent indicator, but are not the only issue in deciding notability. --Maelnuneb (Talk) 20:38, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
      • Response OTOH, they are enough for me to decide to go with a prior decision on an article, when no new argument has been made. FrozenPurpleCube 21:15, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
        • Response During the decision making process for the previous nomination notability was barely discussed, even though it was part of the reason for nomination. My nomination is for notability alone. --Maelnuneb (Talk) 21:27, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment: also WP:NOT "Internet guides. Wikipedia articles should not exist only to describe the nature, appearance or services a website offers, but should describe the site in an encyclopedic manner, offering detail on a website's achievements, impact or historical significance..." --Maelnuneb (Talk) 20:39, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete per either WP:WEB or WP:SOFT, take your pick. No media mentions, references, or reliable sources that I can see, and a 50K Alexa rank isn't nearly high enough to keep it on that basis alone. Andrew Lenahan - Starblind 21:01, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Strong Keep ThunderGold 18:59, 24 October 2006 (UTC) Its a great game and I and many others have put in a lot of effort it is suitable for wikipedia if you remove this I expect every other online game to be removed as well
  • Delete per nom. Anomo 01:47, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete for failing WP:WEB by having no claim to notability, let alone sources for it. Sandstein 20:24, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Strong Keep dank - This page deserves a spot just as Burger King or Taco Bell. It is a popular game with a cult like following.
    • Comment: Yes, this game does have a cult-like following, but that doesn't make it notable. I personally have played this game on and off for almost 3 years, so I have a very intimate knowledge of this game, and I can't come up with a reason for notability, which is why we are here. --Maelnuneb (Talk) 19:38, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Strong Keep This is Ridiclouis. Its more of a perosnal level Maelnuneb that you have showin then a level of why it shouldnt be here due to reason of notability. If it was for notability then it should be on the terms of the website not on here of values you pretain of what is 'notability' in your personal prefrence. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 76.171.113.233 (talk • contribs) 19:05, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
    • Comment:My position is based on WP:WEB, not on personal opinion of the game. Just an fyi: this afd has been linked on the SK forums --Maelnuneb (Talk) 02:18, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Weak keep, this is a very long-standing and popular game, although the article desperately needs to be sourced. Daveydweeb (chat/patch) 01:44, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Note: This debate has been added to the list of CVG deletions. Daveydweeb (chat/patch) 01:44, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete - No reliable third party sources, original research, and it has no actual assertions of notability. 'theoretically capable of hosting an unlimited number of users simultaneously' Evidence please. The Kinslayer 12:37, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
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The result was delete. --Coredesat 07:48, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Erdosville

This place does not exist at all. It was created as part of an experiment in the ability of Wikipedia to "self-heal". The experiment is now concluded as in over a year Wikipedia was unable to detect and remove the existance of a notable but non-existant place. ErdosvillePhil 20:02, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

  • Speedy delete And in the future, there are far better ways than AFD to delete these sorts of experiments. ~ ONUnicorn (Talk / Contribs) 20:07, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Speedy delete. Fails Google search. - CobaltBlueTony 20:09, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete and suggest creator/nominator read Borges Tlön, Uqbar, Orbis Tertius... if they've not already done so. On a side note, this really hits home why unreferenced articles should be agressively tagged for sourcing and deleted if sourcing isn't provided in short order.--Isotope23 20:36, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Speedy Delete Yay! You get a gold star on your forehead! There's the door. Buh bye now! - Richfife 22:22, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete, whether Phil is telling the truth or not, it's unsourced. Gazpacho 01:02, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete, plus comment to the nominator: Wikimedia software tracks the hits to an article (I know, because I administrate a Wikimedia wiki of my own). An interesting experiment would be to look and see if anyone ever actually went and looked at this article, especially as there are no mainspace pages that link to it. I suspect that all this "experiment" proves is that people who make bad faith edits are a colossal waste of everyone's time.—Preceding unsigned comment added by CheNuevara (talk • contribs)
Comment Between the time it was created and the time it was nominated for deletion, no fewer than 8 people edited it, so at least 8 people went and looked at it. Incidentally, a google search turned up a lot of Wikipedia mirrors which have copied the content. ~ ONUnicorn (Talk / Contribs) 19:07, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
Comment We have actually found several real estate agencies in that area who said they could sell us a house in the town, having gleaned information from Wikipedia on it. ErdosvillePhil 20:14, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
Comment You've got to be kidding about the real estate agents. They tell people they can sell them houses when they don't actually have listings? ~ ONUnicorn (Talk / Contribs) 20:39, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
Our understanding is that the location was added as an area with listings available. ErdosvillePhil 22:06, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
Eight people in one year? That's less than a pittance. Besides, ignoring the original creator and the AfD, there's an anonymous IP (who probably is or knows the OP, in all likelihood), plus a bot, a spelling fix, AWB, and one person who made an actual contribution to the article (who has roughly 35 mainspace edits). Eight editors in one year? Twently edits in a year? This article didn't go unfixed, it went unnoticed. - Che Nuevara 06:42, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment: Maybe people shouldn't slam this guy before he publishes his results. If Wikipedia has problems that editors aren't already aware of, it doesn't help to shoot the messenger. However, it would have been nice if he had told Jimbo what he was doing. Gazpacho 01:17, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
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The result was delete. --Coredesat 07:50, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Yu-Gi-Oh!: The Abridged Series

Contested prod. Original prod said "Youtube user made video files appear the epitome of not-notable subjects--Fuhghettaboutit 09:00, 14 October 2006 (UTC)" Khatru2 20:05, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

Also see Yu-Gi-Oh! The Abridged Series and Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Yu-Gi-Oh! The Abridged Series. Khatru2 01:45, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

  • Delete per WP:WEB. I can't find any reliable sources covering this; just forum posts and blogs.--Isotope23 20:31, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete per WP:WEB, no assertion of notability, possibly nonnotable fancruft. Hello32020 21:08, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
Articles that are recreated after proposed deletion are not eligible for speedy deletion, so I have nominated that article separately. Khatru2 01:45, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
But this article is still a speedy candidate for being a duplicate (if it weren't for the AfD in progress I would have redirected) Shiroi Hane 02:05, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete this is terrible. SchmuckyTheCat 07:12, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Note: This debate has been included in the list of Japan-related deletions. -- Dskj 09:44, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete per the other AfD. Guy 14:05, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete per my rationale on the other AfD. Sorry, kids, but just because it's an Internet encyclopedia doesn't mean you can put anything you find amusing on it... in America! Danny Lilithborne 16:26, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete as mentioned before it doesn't pass WP:WEB. The target is a copyvio too. I think we have a policy against generally not linking to those in WP:EL. --Kunzite 01:12, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
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The result was delete. Flowerparty☀ 21:27, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] List of IPW:UK Tag Team Championship defenses

Similar articles that were just lists of title defenses were deleted due to the fact, it's purely fancruft and not needed here. The same reasoning applies to this. RobJ1981 20:08, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

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The result was delete. Can't sleep, clown will eat me 22:18, 21 October 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Linda Christas International School

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Attempt to get around Linda Christas. Serial spammer--Francisx 19:11, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

  • if this is re-creation of previously deleted material then it should be speedied. Pete.Hurd 22:28, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
Google "Linda Christas International School." This isn't a real school. There are no references outside of Wiki-Spam. These people have been spamming dozens of Wiki-articles marketing their company.--Francisx 02:10, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
Yeah, I know. I thought the material had been recreated in this article form the deleted and protected article Linda Christas, if that was the case (I don't know what the contents of that article were) then this AfD is unnecessary and the article should be deleted on sight. Pete.Hurd 03:03, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
note to closing 'crat please verify that this is not merely a recreation of the Linda Christas should a "keep" consensus emerge. Pete.Hurd 03:06, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
This was the version deleted at the old afd; they're different enough that I wasn't comfortable speedying it while I was cleaning up its satellite articles. The old afd was closed early as a speedy, anyway, so it's not g4able. —Cryptic 04:09, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep. This appears to be a good-faith article about a school. High schools are generally notable. --TruthbringerToronto (Talk | contribs) 23:24, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
Please provide some evidence of the good faith you see, as I see nothing but spam. User:Zoe|(talk) 03:00, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
I see no evidence that Truthbringer has actually read the article in question, it's certainly not a highschool. But he has perused the article history to extend invitations to the sockpupets^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H authors of the article to come here and vote [43] [44]... Pete.Hurd 03:12, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
A pre-university school is most commonly known as a high school, although there are exceptions, such as a CEGEP. If the school is actually a tertiary or post-secondary institution, then we should remember that most such institutions are notable. I left the {{subst:adw|NAME OF ARTICLE}} messages on the talk pages because the nominator had chosen not to. Remember that WP:AFD states: "It is generally considered civil to notify the good-faith creator and any main contributors of the article that you are nominating the article." Some comments refer to this school as a business. The context suggests that it is a not-for-profit charitable organization, but I have been unable to confirm this. That having been said, I feel that the term "crazy" is offensive and inappropriate, and I would ask the person who used that term to withdraw it. I think that the material that Richfife found ought to be mentioned in the article. --TruthbringerToronto (Talk | contribs) 04:37, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
I added a Chilling Effects link to the article. Here's a link to the blog in question: [45]. I can't decide whether it belongs in the article proper or not. - Richfife 05:17, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
FYI: None of the full time staff appear to have any sort of advanced degree and only one has an official teaching credential: [46]. The "Linda Christas College Fund" makes no mention of actually ever having funded anything: [47]. They do list their goals, though. - Richfife 05:34, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
Linda Christas College Fund is a 501c4 student advocacy group[citation needed]. That is NOT what is being shown on Wikipedia. What is being shown on Wikipedia is the School. If we are going to be critical, let's at least get our facts in order.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Oppieangel2000 (talk • contribs) 14:35, 18 October 2006.
Having done some original research (I know we're not supposed to do that) and called around, I've found no evidence that LC International School has been accredited. Unaccredited schools are not normally notable. This appears to be a for-profit business of dubious notability. Long history of spamming Wikipedia should certainly raise eyebrows.--Francisx 14:40, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
Original Research is a good way to help you find secondary research, which can then be included. Good work! - Richfife 15:02, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
Original Research doesn't belong in articles. The use of OR in AfD debates is not only legitimate, it is arguably necessary to evaluate claims made. Pete.Hurd 16:52, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep We have my brother's high school on Wikipedia. What's the diff. Actually, someone should have left the original Linda Christas alone as well. Too many editors who have emotional problems at Wikipedia. Another example, someone is going out of their way to put the word FUCK on Pat Boone's site, and reference to Amway. But the same person deletes that Pat Boone is President of the University Board at Pepperdine, and holds a chair at Linda Christas in honor of the black and blind concert Pianist John William Boone. I mean, the editor likes Fuck and Amway, but not Pepperdine University and Linda Christas. He's done it about ten times. Doesn't say much for the judgement of the editors. I'm going to put it in again. See if you see it when you check. I assume that the REAL editors of Wikipedia might agree that Pepperdine is a bit more notable that Fuck. Well, maybe not.Oppieangel2000
— Oppieangel2000 (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. User:Zoe|(talk) 01:46, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep It With schools in Poland, China and the United States, I think this school is more than notable.Butchalliran
— Butchalliran (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. User:Zoe|(talk) 01:46, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
  • KP It One small reference on Wikipedia to LC helped me find this great school. They literally saved my son's life. Keep It Keep It Thelystrom
— Thelystrom (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. User:Zoe|(talk) 01:46, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Extreme delete. NO references, zero Google hits for "Linda Christas International School" outside of Wikipedia spamming. This is worth reading. User:Zoe|(talk) 01:50, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep It From my research, LC is a reputable school. The link Zoe sited is obviously written by a nut. If we delete this one, lots of good schools would need to be deleted also. imho! Tech27
— Tech27 (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. User:Zoe|(talk) 02:14, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
  • EXTREME KEEP IT I counted 42 hits when doing a Linda Christas Search on Google. One of the reasons we have such a poor public school system is that every time a significantly good alternative comes along, a zillion people who are employed by the public schools pan it. This is unfortunatete. In addition, check out these same people who want to delete things on Wikipedia, they put such negative garbage in their own stuff. My goodness. If Wikipedia descends to their level, it will be worthless.GeorgeStanton
Surprise, surprise. — GeorgeStanton (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. . User:Zoe|(talk) 02:58, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
Funny, I get ZERO Google hits when I look for "Linda Christas School". But so what? The article is titled "Linda Christas International School". If there is no such thing, then there should be no such article. If you think this school is so wonderful, then it should be really, really easy to provide reliable sources. User:Zoe|(talk) 03:00, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
  • delete as per nom. Pete.Hurd 03:04, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete. No reliable sources, no verification or even substantial verifiability, not written according to a neutral point of view, not enough press coverage or publicly available resources to even allow us to write about it with a neutral point of view. Furthermore, it appears to be connected to a campaign to spam Wikipedia. Delete it and protect against recreation - this is the most perfect deletion candidate I have seen in a long time. Captainktainer * Talk 03:06, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep It I think people are missing the point here. Linda Christas is a three country school. Wikipedia has one horse town schools in the Encyclopedia, so what is the problem with Linda Christas other than it's a good place for kids. Also, people need to understand that the web site for all three Linda Christas schools is listed under just Linda Christas, not Linda Christas International. The International designation is relatively recent because of their success in China. So ANY hit you get with a Linda Christas search and there are lots of them is good for Linda Christas International. Also, I agree with one of the comments above. The people like The Taoist, and the Miles Williams of the world are really crazy. If those kinds of people win something like this, we are lost.— 71.142.236.117 (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
What are the addresses and phone #'s of the Linda Christa schools in Poland and China? All I see on the site are some faded photos that look like they were scanned from old postcards. - Richfife 07:13, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Yes, Keep It I think that a lot of the trouble here is that one has to look at who and what Linda Christas has accomplished. I mean Sue Grafton, Pat Boone, Efrem Zimbalist Jr. and Alison Jiear don't lend their names to just any project. In the case of Mr. Boone, the only other school he is affiliated with is Pepperdine University. Are we going to say that Linda Christas is not notable. Efrem Zimbalist is a Pulitzer winner for cripes sake. Do you think that he would willy nilly allow his name to be used by scammers and spammers. Let's get real WikiRolandPatina— RolandPatina (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
Sue Grafton, Pat Boone, Efrem Zimbalist Jr. and Alison Jiear don't lend their names to just any project. Really? doesn't the evidence presented here suggest just the opposite?—Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.148.40.121 (talk • contribs)
  • delete, nn pyramid scam. —Cryptic 03:31, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete per all above. Coordinated attempt at spam. Resolute 03:50, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete Google search turns up 1) High pressure marketing 2) Complaints about scammish nature of the business 3) Legal attempts (copyright nastygrams, etc.) to shut up #2. No press coverage that isn't blatantly PR from the organization itself that I can find. This is not the first attempt to recreate under a different name. - Richfife 04:14, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep The negative material I see on Google regarding Linda Christas has nothing to do with anyone or anybody who knows anything about Linda Christas. That's what's happening here. The negative posts are from people who a reasonable person would listen to and then do the exact opposite thing. A Taoist and a Racist. I mean, Linda Christas was accused of racism. Take a look at the faces on their Board. If one can call this school racist, then the KKK is not.
Anyway, this school is worthy of being on Wikipedia. If one is counting socks, maybe not. But if one is really wanting to have something worthwhile on the data base then, for heavens sake, girls, back off. Linda Christas has been supported on D.C. Radio. New York City Radio (Public service radio - not high pressure sales radio). It has a record of ZERO BBB complaints unsatisfied. I mean this school is attacked everywhere it tries to help kids, and help kids they do (without one penny of our tax money). One lady wrote a letter complaining that she didn't like the name of the School and if they didn't change it, she was going to file with the BBB. I mean really!!!!
So I ask you, why would you delete this school when if you just read the stuff that is said that is negative about Linda Christas you will see that none of the people complaining have a single child in the school. They just like to complain, as so many Americans do.
Linda Christas is an elite school with some of the best minds and personalities in the world supporting it. Captain Jim Lovell (Apollo 13) is considering accepting a seat on the Linda Christas Advisory Committee, and NONE of the celebrities or scientists or authors that currently are on the Committee are paid a dime to contribute their leadership to the school. Again, if you girls are salvageable, there is no doubt about the merits of Linda Christas. This article needs to stay. ShirleyDobbins
— Possible single purpose account: ShirleyDobbins (talk • contribs) has made few or no other contributions outside this topic.
  • Keep If any of the components of the Linda Christas site are worthy of a listing on Wikipedia, I would think logically that the full site would also be worthy. People like Pat Boone, Efrem Zimbalist Jr, Sue Grafton, and Alison Jiear felt comfortable having their rather awesome names used in connection with this school. They all have Wikipedia listings. Wouldn't we say by extension then that Linda Christs is deserving of at least a small space. For example, the Pat Boone listing is several times the length of the proposed Linda Christas site. I say keep the site, and if necessary have some portions re-written although it seems pretty objective to me as it is.
Keepyoursocksdry— Possible single purpose account:Keepyoursocksdry (talk • contribs) has made few or no other contributions outside this topic.
  • Keep Are you guys serious that you want to get all the trash from trashy people and put that in Linda Christas' write-up. Why??? The people who have written on the net anything negative about Linda Christas know nothing about the school. Just read the comments. It would be like including the 3000 unanswered BBB complaints that IBM currently has on file. Why not put that in the IBM article???? Because the complaints against IBM are generally made because there was a loose wire somewhere, and not necessarily in the equipment. If you go to legitimate sources for complaints like the BBB....maybe. But IBM's 3000 unanswered complaints ARE with the BBB. So now with Linda Christas that has had ONE BBB complaint in nine years, and that one not even from a family who had a student in the school, that's what you are going to use to characterize this school??? Is anyone seriously thinking that's an objective listing of relevant material or relevant to deciding whether this school is notable?— Bestofseven (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
  • Delete or speedy as spam. With all the massive astroturfing and sockpuppeting going on, it's impossible to consider this a good-faith attempt at an encyclopedia article. If the school exists and is notable, it can have an article at a later date, written by an impartial and uninvolved third party. For now, we have no reason to perpetuate anyone's wikispam campaign. Andrew Lenahan - Starblind 12:01, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete - I fear not the awesome name of Efrem Zimbalist, Jr., especially when it comes to a high-pressure sales/marketing program like this. Robertissimo 12:06, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete - non-notable advertising for a pyramid scheme that is trying to use Wikipedia to make a scam look legitimate. Protect to prevent recreation. --Charlene.fic 12:48, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
No, it isn't. I spent a good ten minutes calling around. No evidence that it's been accredited.Francisx 14:43, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
I notice that the "school's" e-mail address appearing here is "@lindas.com", odd that this "school" isn't in an ".edu" domain of some sort. Pete.Hurd 16:59, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete per nom and in a minor way per Andrew Lenahan. --NuclearZer0 13:42, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete per nom. *drew 14:39, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
Comment In addition to Richfife's helpful links above, this [48] from a dissatisfied customer is interesting and possibly enlightening. Robertissimo 16:15, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete, spam - doesn't seem to be anything verified either.--Nilfanion (talk) 21:08, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

TO ALL OF THE NEW USERS WHO HAVE COME HERE TO VOTE "KEEP":

Please realize that, in order for an article to be on Wikipedia, it has to verifiable, with reliable sources. the school's publicity and its website are not reliable sources, neither are testimonials from supposed well-satisified students and their parents. We need news articles from reputable newspapers which discuss this school. We need cites from books and magazines which talk about it. Until and unless those sources are provided, there is no chance that this article can be kept, under our policies and guidelines. User:Zoe|(talk) 23:50, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
The new users who have come here to vote keep have, coincidentally, been confirmed to be from the same IP. [49] —Cryptic 22:34, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete. Not because of the lame sockpuppets, which do very little to sway me in either direction, but due to the lack of verifiable sources. Find some and maybe I'll change my mind. RFerreira 01:02, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete. No sources Googled it and Wikipedia was the only source I could find. Advertising spam.--Lord of Illusions 06:13, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment I see that all attempts to correct the unfounded assumptions being made by the reviewers here are being deleted. For example, the gossip with no substantiation or checking with Linda Christas is being allowed. But, anyone offering substantitive actual experience with the school is evidently not worthy of consideration.
I am also a student at Linda Christas, and the student body is becoming amazed at the low level of research that passes for objectivity here. At least Opal was willing to give you guys a chance to correct these mistakes that you have been making. But, evidently Wikipedia is not interested in facts, just gossip. So be it. I sure am not going to recommend that anybody look to you guys for reliable information if a school like mine can be banned from being listed. I'm suprised you have Harvard listed. But you do. Also, Altamont Kindergarten. Now there's a notable school for you. I'll drop by to see if they even know you've got them. CYRIL LEE
Caps removed by Naconkantari
  • Keep it: Substantiation: 40 hits google 31 hits Yahoo 37 hits metacrawler. None of these hits except the three from people who weren't accepted by Linda Christas or certainly haven't had experience with the school are to be seen on this page.

Even the factual material on the site including trade references, government references, media references, and Advisory Committee references, all these were deleted yesterday.

I'd post them again, but what's the use. You guys don't want to hear anything but your own voices. I have asked the Linda Christas Help Desk if ANYONE has contacted the school from Wikipedia. The answer is a resounding NO. This is the same level of "research" that is typical of persons who love hiding under rocks. And, you call yourselves objective? Dr. Ethel Strom. Parent whose children attend Linda Christas and proudly so.Thelystrom

— Possible single purpose account: Thelystrom (talk • contribs) has made few or no other contributions outside this topic. User:Zoe|(talk) 22:59, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
Please post the Google hits for "Linda Christas International School ", since I found none. Perhaps your search comes up with different results from mine. But once again, as I said above, please read WP:RS. First person accounts are not reliable sources. We need neutral, third-party sources. User:Zoe|(talk) 22:58, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
Dear Zoe: Perhaps we need you to contact the Linda Christas Dean for input. But, that's probably not acceptable. Trade references are third parties and they were posted yesterday and were promptly deleted. I first discovered Linda Christas in Curious Parent Magazine, and then again in a submission to the English teachers forum at the State Department.
If all of this fuss is about whether this is a credible school, I would hope that Wikipedia has expended this much energy on all schools. I'm fairly confident that that is not the case.
I have just Googled for Linda Christas again, and you are correct, most of the hits are from parents and students of Linda Christas. The only comments that are from third parties are those with zero experience with the school. And, of course, those are quoted above. They are indeed third parties, one from a blogger (no knowledge of Linda Christas, but plenty of opinion) and Miles Williams (a person so far to the left that no minority person would ever have to do anything to live in mansions. Good luck to Wikipedia if this is the standard. Dr. Mason RidgeDrraymondridge 23:09, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
— Possible single purpose account: Drraymondridge (talk • contribs) has made few or no other contributions outside this topic. User:Zoe|(talk) 02:06, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
Read this: WP:RS. When you've read it, come back and say so here: Wikipedia_talk:Articles_for_deletion/Linda_Christas_International_School. Then we can discuss it. Thanks! - Richfife 23:17, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

Comment Yes, I understand. However, this policy is like saying that if I call you a crook, then you must find a party who doesn't know you to deny the charge. I don't see how a rule of this kind can possibly end up with other than the grimmest innacuracies. You can see this kind of thing in action on this talk page. Only persons who don't seem to have the slightest idea about Linda Christas can be quoted, and all of them are certainly light years away from center. Dr. Mason Ridge Drraymondridge

OK, I can see why you might feel that way. Yes, some people on this page feel that Linda Christas is not legitimate. I'm one of them. I could be wrong, so could everyone else. I think there are two issues in play here, each of them with different places they should be played out. If you don't like the policy of reliable sources, then you need to go here: Wikipedia_talk:Reliable_sources. We'll call that page #1. If you feel the policy is not being used correctly on this page, then this is the page to discuss it. We'll call this page #2. If you have complaints about the policy not being used correctly and complain about them at page #1, then no one will pay attention (wrong place). If you have complaints about the policy itself, and post about it in page #2, you will look like someone that only cares about this one article and no others. Wikipedians really hate that. We're here to make this a better resource across the board. - Richfife 00:01, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
Yes, I see your point here. But, I have no desire to begin a parliamentarian discussion of Roberts Rules. I just think that if the policies lead you to exclude a person or entity I know to be at the forefront of educational practice, if not theory, that is a disservice to anyone who might appreciate a look at the present with a bias (in a positive sense) toward the future. In that situation, only traditional organizations and theories will have an opportunity to meet with favor here, and in this age of speed and dynamic change, Wikipedia will become less desirable as a source than many of the established encyclopedias. (The yearly Americana is normally obsolete upon publication. That's one reason that Google and Metacrawler are consulted BEFORE Wikipedia. They understand the need for virtual change. Unless Wikipedia can overcome its own inertia, I'm afraid it will rapidly become massively redundant.)
Said differently, accuracy is one thing;being the best is another. I had hoped (and still hope) that Wikipedia can maneuver out from under the weight of encyclopedic "tradition" and truly become the dynamic venture that was its original vision. To that end I am certainly willing to contribute to Wikipedia. I am, however, going to allow this issue with Linda Christas to be a litmus test for me. If with all the input now posted on the net, and with the trade references and reputations of the persons supporting Linda Christas, the rules of inclusion/exclusion have already grown so cumbersome (not to say Jurassic) at Wikipedia so as to exclude Linda Christas, Wikipedia has moved beyond my personal exclusion "Event Horizon." On the other hand, if obstacles to the publication of the newest and most eagerly awaited societal changes can be reflected in something approaching real time by Wikipedia, without a planetary eruption when "traditional" long term sources are not available, Wikipedia will indeed be the FIRST knowledge source ever to surpass the glories of a search engine by virtue of its scholarship. If you wish, I am willing to interview the principals at this school, and re-create something for you to look at. But, from my perspective what they have already provided to the Wikipedia authorities, seems sufficient to maintain their listing. I can certainly corroborate some of it myself. (For example, I have met and entertained Efrem Zimbalist Jr. on several occasions. He is a very family oriented individual who loved and respected his father and mother very much. With his work at the Curtis Institute (which I do not see mentioned on his listing with Wikipedia, and his acceptance of a chair with Linda Christas, I frankly don't understand how Wikipedia can exclude these facts. Let me know if I can help. Dr. Mason Ridge 71.143.28.120


If this institution is indeed noteable for "[being] at the forefront of educational practice, if not theory" then surely you can cite some reliable, verifiable sources to substantiate that claim. --ElKevbo 05:33, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
Again, you've provided absolutely no way for anyone to verify your claim. You say Christas was in "Curious Parent" magazine. Is this it: [50] ? If so, it's very small. Which issue has an article about Christas in it? If Efrem Zimbalist is involved, why is his picture on the website a 50 year old headshot (He's 88 years old now)? Why not a picture of him with a staff member or student? Over and over again, all we get are testimonials ("Linda Christas saved my life!") and unsupported assertions ("Linda Christas is on the cutting edge of educational edge cutting!") You act offended that we aren't taking your word for it. Well, we're not supposed to. Wikipedia articles are considered guilty until proven innocent, and no evidence that has not provably come from outside of the Linda Christas organization has appeared. If you could get one of the celebrities listed as an endorser to come forward without any Christas employee acting as a go between and discuss their support of the organization, it would help, but it would probably not get the article all the way. Celebrity endorsements are not enough by themselves. Oh, and by the way, I often lose track of things here and there, but I never ever forget my own first name. You've been going back and forth between Raymond and Mason. - Richfife 07:00, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete due to lack of verifiability. Cynical 11:43, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep: The problem with the reasoning above is that we are expecting an institution that is fighting hudreds of billions of dollars a year in tax money to do more than point to its theory sources. You are not going to find lots of people in the community saying "gee whiz" what a wonderful way to change the system. Both the Waldorf schools and the Linda Christas schools have been under attack for three or four years for their policies regarding introducing material to children when the children are ready for it rather than treating them like cookies.
In my substantial travels, I have seen Linda Christas mentioned in several newspapers, albeit not the New York Times. One newspaper was in the Los Angeles area (Los Cerritos Community News), and the other when I was traveling in Oregon (Argus Newspapers) I have also heard Linda Christas mentioned on public radio at least in Watertown, New York (Their fund raising auction in 2005. Linda Christas had donated a scholarship to them to auction off.) And, as mentioned, you can find articles about the school in Curious Parent Magazine. Further, some public high school districts have recently been picking up the Linda Christas rules for selecting extracurricular eactivities, Dedham High School District, for example.
(Start interjection)
The "Hillboro Argus" or the "Argus Observer"? Which issue? Which issues of the "Los Cerritos Community News"? Which public radio station? What was the time and date? Which issue of "Curious Parent" magazine? There is no "Dedham High School District", but there is a "Dedham High School" here: [51]. Is this the correct school? Which department are you referring to? Who should I contact? - Richfife 15:47, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
(Stop interjection)
There is also a blogging series that people can contribute to on the net. You can see that at www.lindachristas.net I believe.
(Start interjection)
This would provide extra detail to the article, but until there are verifiable sources for notability, there's no article. - Richfife 15:47, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
(Stop interjection)
Keep in mind that Linda Christas is not a traditional school with a traditional campus, There are no buildings for the tax payers to support with the name Linda Christas over the doors. And, no reporters COVERING Linda Christas FOOTBALL. Linda Christas receives no tax money, nor tax favored money. They have approximately 4000 students internationally. I personally know two of the students currently studying to attend U.S. Universities next year who live in south east China (If it would help, I can ask their permission for you to contact them for verification.) You can contact any of the people on the Advisory Committee to ascertain the existence of the school if you wish. Surely, we are not going to be so petty as to deny that the MOST convincing and important material about Linda Christas, they have already published for the world to see.) Certainly that must count for something. If I asked the writer above to substantiate his or her existence, surely if Dr. Gregory Huckabee, former high ranking officer in the Adjutant Corps were willing to verify the fine work he/she (the writer above) were doing, wouldn't that be superior to his/her name being registered in a box score in the Baltimore Sun? Or are we so convinced that the traditional means of doing everything is what we want for Wikipedia. Dr. Shroeder P.S. I know Dr. Mason R. Ridge by reputation only. Is someone attempting to attack that good man? That would be sad indeed—Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.142.241.76 (talk • contribs)
  • Note thusfar the following sockpuppets of Oppieangel2000 have been confirmed and blocked: Butchalliran, Thelystrom, Tech27, GeorgeStanton, RolandPatina, ShirleyDobbins, Keepyoursocksdry, Bestofseven, Synqopation, Referee36, Julieismywife, Buddydebrill, Manysummers. Also blocked as sock: Drraymondridge. Pete.Hurd 15:42, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
For a military article, Dr. Huckabee might count. For this one, not so much. I was replying to a post signed by "Dr. Mason Ridge", pointing out the inconsistency. You suddenly stepped in. - Richfife 15:47, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
I can not find any listing for a "Dr. Raymond M. Ridge" or a "Dr. Raymond Mason Ridge" in any professional directories. What is his specialty? Thanks! - Richfife 15:54, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
Sorry, I meant to say "Dr. Mason R. Ridge". Still no matches. Also and again, solicited testimonials from non-notable people don't count. We need notable people with relevant experience in the field speaking out entirely for themselves on their own dime, or it's a no go. - Richfife 17:06, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment Not one of the Linda Christas Advisory Committee receives a penny for lending their names to LC for verification purposes. It is simply a pro bono arrangement all around. The only thing that the members of the Advisory Committee are guilty of is being impressed enough with LC to be willing to link their names and reputations with Linda Christas.
Let me ask a question here: Let's take for our example the pioneering surgeon, Dr. Ronald Allison (put his name into the Google search engine) who sits on the Linda Christas Advisory Committee without pay. Is Wikipedia saying that BEFORE Dr. Allison knew enough about Linda Christas to agree to serve on the Advisory Committee without pay, he would have been a personage Wikipedia would have accepted for verification of its (LC's) existence. However, since Dr. Allison was evidently impressed enough to have his name linked with Linda Christas he is now disqualified? Does that go for the rest of the people who purposely allowed their names to be used for verification as well?.... though again NONE of the members of the Advisory Committee are paid a nickel for their efforts on behalf of the School. Is Wikipedia taking the position that if a celebrity or noted personality goes out of their way for FREE to help an organization, Wikipedia disqualifies that person or persons.
Said differently, I am getting the impression that, since Linda Christas' intent was to recruit noted, responsible people to be on their Advisory Committee, so that parents could verify the quality of the Linda Christas offerings, this very act of getting the person on the Committee disqualifies that person from verifying that the School exists. So, let's say Captain Jim Lovell joins the Committee as he might, he's considering it, but like the others, wanted, of course, to investigate before committing. Now, BEFORE Captain Lovell completes his study of the School to decide if he can support its programs, before he has done that, Wikipedia will accept Captain Lovell's judgment in terms of verifying Linda Christas' existence. But, if he actually becomes enthused about LC and accepts a seat on the Committee, then he is disqualified according to the Wikipedia rules?
It's really difficult for me to see the logic in that case. It would be like verifying that George Bush is still physically functional by disqualifying his Cabinet, and then asking the guard in the White House lobby for verification. Can this be? Can Wikipedia really have such a policy, and remain respected???
I am just wanting to understand who in the world an organization might call upon to know enough about it to be favorably impressed, BUT NOT TOO FAVORABLY impressed, i.e. a level of impression that is sufficient for them NOT to want to help that organization, and yet having enough information to satisfy Wikipedia rules.
I submit the names of the Linda Christas Advisory Committee for verification of LC's standing. There isn't a high school in the Nation with a more impressive board. Look at the boards of ANY of the high schools in your area or that have been previously listed on Wikipedia without fanfare. Other boards don't even come close, and yet, Wikipedia seems ready to reject what in effect is one of the finest assemblies of celebrity and doctoral talent for any high school in America. I hope I am somehow wrong here. I challenge anyone to try to find a better Advisory Group for a high school!! If LC is not listed by Wikipedia at the end of this discussion, I would say that the illogic of that decision would disqualify Wikipedia, at least in my mind, from ever being taken seriously. In that case, I would actually advise LC to stay away from Wikipedia. It would be a disgrace to BE listed if the logic I am hearing is accurate.I JUST DON'T BELIEVE WIKIPEDIA EDITORS ARE CARELESS OR ARBITRARY ENOUGH TO MAKE A DECISION OF THAT KIND. Please prove me right!BettyCharette
(Can we get a sock check on BettyCharette?) You're referring to a list that appears only on the website. There is no public reciprocal acknowledgement from any of the big names on it. I've only been able to establish contact with one member of the list so far, but they have neither confirmed nor denied anything yet. What the high schools in a particular area do is not in doubt. What Linda Christas does is in doubt. All information about its doings has come through the organization itself. I can make grandiose claims too. - Richfife 20:18, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep It: You guys are not even attempting to think this through. To have those people pictured on the Internet WITHOUT THEIR PERMISSION would cost Linda Christas millions in law suits, and it would be all over the newspaper. Where is the logic here. (Remember Barbara Streisand sued an environmnetalist for 16 million for just taking a photo of her house and putting it on the net.) This seems to be a bit like the inquisition. I mean any thoughtful person it seems to me would understand the reality of public images, and how much money some of these people command just for an appearance. For images to be placed without permission would be financial suicide, not to mention the national press panning Linda Christas forever. I give up people. At this time, I really don't believe anything any commentator would say would persuade you of the illogic of what you are saying here. This is not a good reflection of the kinds of individuals defending Wikipedia's position. —Preceding unsigned comment added by BettyCharette (talk • contribs)
"We must have the rights to do this because if we didn't we'd get sued" isn't an argument. We're trying to get at truth, but we're not getting past truthiness. - Richfife 20:34, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

KEEP IT: I agree, it's NOT an argument, It's the ONLY argument that means anything. That you don't accept it is marvelously illogical from my perspective. Why would a separate list anywhere mean anything?(I can put one on the net if you would like. I'll just write a blog, eh. Would you accept that? Of course not. Who do you think is going to be wanting to compile the Advisory Committee list of a private school? As an experiment, why don't you choose any celebrity. Then, go ahead and copy a photo and put your name next to it saying that the celebrity endorses you. I'm certain you wouldn't do that. WHY. You know why.BettyCharette

Already commented above. Naconkantari 21:12, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
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The result was Withdrawn, no delete opinions - CrazyRussian talk/email 20:59, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Russa Nodrey

NN Fictional Squirrel. Mysteriously deprodded. - CrazyRussian talk/email 20:22, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

Withdraw, will be merged under WikiProject - CrazyRussian talk/email 20:59, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
Comment You might want to take a look at some of the other articles in Category:Redwall characters. She's actually a fairly important character in the book she appears in. Frankly, I'd rather see most of these merged into a List of Redwall Characters. I don't think they each need their own article. However, at the moment they all seem to have their own stub articles. If she's deleted, then most of the rest should be. ~ ONUnicorn (Talk / Contribs) 20:37, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
Oh...My...Gawd... - CrazyRussian talk/email 21:21, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Merge/redirect to The Long Patrol. Criterion: Does the character matter outside the book in which she appears? In this case, no. Same probably goes for a lot of the characters in that category. Zetawoof(ζ) 23:01, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
    • Slightly irrelevant comment She does matter in subsequent books; she dies in the Long Patrol and a baby is named after her. This baby (grown up) is the hero of the next book.
  • This looks suspiciously like a walled garden to me. I suspect a large amount of merging should take place; I'm sure it's a great series but does it really deserve over a hundred Wikipedia articles? I'm not sure Star Wars has that many these days... Alba 04:23, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
    • Or transwiki'ing to the ridiculously developed Redwall Wiki. But wait - anything here is certainly already there - so should we just delete it all? - CrazyRussian talk/email 04:29, 17 October 2006 (UTC)


Idea I've been thinking about the Redwall articles for a while. The Redwall series is a massive series of books written by one Brian Jacques. There are nearly 30 books in or related to the series (this includes a cookbook, and several illustrated picture-books). It is a hugely popular series among people my age (I was 6 when the first book came out in 1986) and younger. There are movie and tv-series spin-offs from this. They are aimed at older children.

Right now the treatment of Redwall on Wikipedia is a little disorganized and haphazard. There is a article on the series as a whole; articles on each and every book in the series and on most of the companion books; articles on each of the important characters from the books; and articles on each major location in the fictional universe. I don't believe there is a wikiproject to coordinate the treatment of these articles.

Frankly, I don't think that having isolated articles on each character is a good way to go about doing this. Like I said earlier, I think a good idea would be to merge these articles and consolidate them in list form. Currently my thinking is a main List of Redwall Characters with sections for each book. As the information is moved from the characters individual article to the appropriate section of the list the character article should be turned into a re-direct. I was thinking cut-and-paste moves for the information as the history of who wrote the stuff would remain at the re-direct page and history merging sounds like something only an administrator can do and it seems like it would be a pain in the butt for the administrator stuck doing it. Characters would be listed in the book in which they first appeared, with notes refering the reader to the proper section for subsequent books. Books would be listed in order of their writing, as they don't necessarily follow chronological order.

This would leave a lot of re-directs, but the information would be consolidated in one place and would be easier for readers to find and comprehend and easier for editors to maintain.

I can get started on this later tonight, but if I'm going to do this it would be counter-productive to delete this or any of the character articles at this time. Moreover, I can't do it all by myself as I haven't read the books that come after Triss.

I'll propose a wikiproject to clean these up at the main series article and see if I can get some help from other interested parties. Anyway, those are my thoughts at the moment. ~ ONUnicorn (Talk / Contribs) 14:35, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

I was 5 in 1986 and have positively never heard of this series. (I was in the Soviet Union at the time, which may explain it...) Nevertheless, being that it is my heartfelt desire to rid WP of all crufty-cruft, I would be pleased to join this endeavor. - CrazyRussian talk/email 14:42, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
No Redwall WikiProject? Perish the thought! Make one. Seriously. Zetawoof(ζ) 19:09, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
Wikipedia:WikiProject Redwall Started today. ~ ONUnicorn (Talk / Contribs) 19:51, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
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The result was delete. --Coredesat 07:52, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Husqvar Belle

Apparent hoax. Very unlikely that a Russian train from 1922 (or is it 1899?) should have such a Swedish-sounding name. No google hits for anything relating to trains or railroads apart from Wikipedia clones; but the first google entry for "Husqvar Belle" is "Husqvar Belle -- The Band", which may be a possible source of inspiration for the creator. (Note that edits to this page are the only contributions of the original creator.) Also, the Sinsheim Auto & Technik Museum does not seem to know anything about it. In short, if you manage to convince me that this is real, I will gladly change my vote. For now, delete. Ekjon Lok 20:25, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

  • Further note. Original version of the article contained even more outrageous claims, such that the train "was used to transport Stalin's body in 1961". This was questioned by some editor and removed, but the rest of the article allowed to stand. Ekjon Lok 20:33, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete as hoax failing WP:V. Among other things, Russian has no "q", and the unusual name is identical to "Sheffield's hottest rock band". Hmmmm. --Dhartung | Talk 05:57, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete as hoax. Michael K. Edwards 09:49, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete — Zero unique google.com hits shows me that if it were real, it is not very notable. Unless there are ANY sources, I have vote delete. -- moe.RON talk | done | doing 23:24, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
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The result was Keep (nomination withdrawn)

[edit] Gyrotonic

Has been tagged {{advert}}, {{tone}}, {{unencyclopedic}}, {{uncat}}, {{cleanup}} and {{linkless}} and has twice (!) been {{prod}}'d, none of these by me. Perhaps it should be put out of its misery ? I think so. Angus McLellan (Talk) 20:54, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

  • {{Delete}} per nom.  :) Deli nk 21:14, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Speedy Delete under G11. I don't have the heart to put another box on that page however. hateless 21:36, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
    • withdraw above per Angus' edits. hateless 22:54, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment: I must confess that I added all of those cleanup templates, because I was irritated at having my prod summarily removed. It's fairly deserving of most of them, but it does seem somewhat notable, with google returning 184,000 results. Perhaps it could be merged into some other kind of excercise page? Or severely copyedited to reduce it to a less horrid article? Salad Days 21:37, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
    • Well, I deadvertised it somewhat, added a reference, and remove the nonessential weblinks. I have no idea if a merge with pilates would be justified, but some material seems to treat Gyrotonic as a variant of that. Angus McLellan (Talk) 22:47, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
Well done! Salad Days 02:12, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Nomination withdrawn after cleanup: poor research by the nominator. Angus McLellan (Talk) 18:30, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
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The result was delete. - Bobet 10:29, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Tony Garcia (Radio Host)

Host of local radio show Race to the Right (also on AfD). Article was tagged for speedy deletion a few days ago, but the creator tagged it "hangon" and added a new intro that he felt addressed notability. It is a rather long article and partially sourced, but much of the article is unsourced and fails verifiability. Furthermore, I don't see anything in the article that meets WP:BIO inclusion criteria, so my opinion is Delete.--Isotope23 20:56, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

  • Keep I have been using Wikipedia for many many things for several years. When I have a question about ANYTHING I check Wikipedia first. While the policy of "notability" and "verifiable" are very good standards there seems to me a conflict with that in some of the projects I have seen on Wikipedia (e.g. requesting pages for all state legislators, articles completing timelines). These projects imply a desire of comprehensiveness to some degree. Those things said, these articles seem to fall into line with the comprehensive drive of other projects. Verifiability? Yes, difficult. So, to me, it seems the question here calls for a balance between Verfiability and/or Notability vs Comprehensive and leading resource. And one more point to the idea of Comprehensive Resource: many other Wikias also imply a similar drive...things like Lyrics library, etc.tony garcia 00:58, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment this reasoning is a cut and paste from your comments at the Race to the Right AfD. verifiability is an official policy here and is non-negotiable. There is no balancing Verfiability/Notability/Comprehensive... if something is not verifiable or sourced it does not belong on Wikipedia, particularly in the case of biographic articles (you can read WP:LIVING for the policy on this). On another note, please read the guideline criteria for inclusion of a biographical article (which can be viewed at WP:BIO). The problem I see here is that the subject of this article doesn't meet any of the criteria at said guideline.--Isotope23 13:12, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment "non-negotialbe"? I will have to go through the pages such as the "United States network television schedule" and change my votes to delete...and perhaps submit those not already submitted. Since verifiability is non-negotiable and thus not balanced with comprehensiveness.tony garcia 20:14, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment I have read the WP:BIO often. And please consider the following quotes from that page.

    This guideline is not Wikipedia policy (and indeed the whole concept of notability is contentious). However, it is the opinion of many, but not all, Wikipedians that these criteria are a fair test of whether a person has sufficient external notice to ensure that they can be covered from a neutral point of view based on verifiable information from reliable sources, without straying into original research (all of which are formal policies)...This is not intended to be an exclusionary list; just because someone doesn't fall into one of these categories doesn't mean an article on the person should automatically be deleted.(empahsis in original)

    Quite honestly from my hours and hours of reading all of the policies and guidelines and discussions on other articles I have realized that the areas being argued for deletion are grey areas. Misinterpretations of intentions (like with Charlene below) and reading 'guidelines' as concrete policies seem to drive most of the discussions throughout. This whole process has been very enlightening (both positively and negatively). In the end I beleive the only real question is about Verifiability. The other justifications for deletion seem to be poorly relying upon selective interpretation. On a different note...I want to thank Isotope and XP for being less hostile and more helpful than most every other discussion I have read or participated in.--tony garcia 20:14, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment, thanks and please know that it is nothing personal against you, your show, or Pete. The whole point of this process is to discuss the merits of an article and different people are going to have different viewpoints. I personally apply the WP:BIO guidelines pretty strictly (unless I see a compelling reason to ignore them), but not everyone necessarily does so. I hope regardless of what happens with these articles it doesn't sour you on involvement or use of the project.--Isotope23 20:29, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete per WP:VAIN and WP:V. Wikipedia is not an advertising service.--Charlene.fic 12:50, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment I take offense to the insinuation that I am advertising anything. 1) I gain nothing by trying to add all of the live talent from the station into Wikipedia. 2) I believe I have upfront about my relation to the page and my reasonings have nothing to do with self-promotion. My intentions were simple (and have been discussed at various other discussions). I found a philosophy of comprehensiveness within Wikipedia (which is the reason I use Wikipedia) and began adding the stations of Leighton Broadcasting and its local talent into Wikipedia. That is it. Not for advertising, not for anything else. When I use Wikipedia to find things as menial as television schedules from the 80's (which helped me in an interview, btw, a few months ago) I thought I would contribute by completing what I know about St Cloud's radio scene. I would suggest you go and read more of the Wikipedia guidelines and policies about making the charge of "vanity"...as it absolutely does not describe my purposes.tony garcia 20:14, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment Vegas...I am wondering where the assertion that the article about a PLACE of interest is.
  • Delete per nom, yet another vanity page that almost meets {{db-spam}}. Sandstein 20:45, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
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The result was Delete. The creator has "withdrawn" the article. utcursch | talk 08:47, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Ivy Goh Nair

Procedural nomination. Speedy A7 was applied, but was contested and this warrants a further look. User:Chandrannair and User:Ivygohnair have been editing each other's articles so this constitutes vanity regardless (getting someone close to you to edit your article is as much vanity as doing it yourself), but I'm neutral for now (even though this article doesn't seem to be). ColourBurst 21:09, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

delete - The original editor was User:Ivygohnair so it was marked as a vanity article for violating WP:AUTO. There was even a box on the talk page that the subject of the article edited wikipedia. It was also in category:notable wikipedians. I don't know what happened to those edits, but here comes User:Chandrannair claiming that it is not a vanity article because he/she uploaded it. Mapetite526 21:12, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

Comment/Question:CSD A7 is "Unremarkable people, groups, companies and websites.". Is that the reason for the AfD too? According to Wikipedia:Vanity_guidelines "As explained below, an author's conflict of interest by itself is not a basis for deletion, but lack of assertion of notability is." Edward Wakelin 21:48, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

"Thank you. I am about to cite two reviews of her book. Just uploaded the one by ST from the Singapore New Nation and will shortly do one by Ian Gill which appeared in the Asian Wall Street Journal, 29 aug 1981. This can surely be checked in the archives as the Asian Wall Street Journal is not an insignificant journal. Please give me a few minutes to upload this."

This is from the author of the article. ColourBurst 21:54, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
The author is the subject's husband, by the way. Not sure if anybody noticed that. Mapetite526 18:12, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
We have never tried to hide this.Ivygohnair 09:10, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

Hello, it's user:chandrannair again. It is true that I have come into the fray to defend Ivy Goh Nair from speedy deletion and that her last page was actually uploaded by me. I think if you want to apply the "vanity" label because one person edits the other and vice versa, it would only be fair to examine each case on its own merit. Both user:ivygohnair and user:chandrannair are established figures in the field that is being discussed: ie Singapore literature and writing; secondly, it should be considered in their favour that they have used their own names and not fictitious names as user names; If this had been the case, the problem wouldn't have arisen. Therefore I think there is much merit in User: Edward Wakelin remarks above and that an author's conflict of interest is by itself not a basis for deletion. In our case, "conflict of interest" is hardly applicable as we are both extremely qualified to comment on each other's professional skills as well as the professional skills of any other Singaporean writer or poet. I think the main criterion that should be applied is whether Ivy Goh Nair is notable in Wikipedia standards, whether the material is original (which it shouldn't be) and whether there are reliable and verifiable sources. I have cited various sources which are both reliable and verifiable (the two reviews in a Singaporean and an international newspaper) which clearly states that Ivy Goh Nair had significantly contributed to the history of Singapore, by her book "Singapore Accent". The article does not contain any "original" matter as such.

I sincerely hope that in the end, justice will prevail and "ivy goh nair" will not be deleted. If it is, it would be only fair that the reasons for such a deletion should be clearly spelled out by Wikipedia.

—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Chandrannair (talk • contribs) 01:59, 17 October 2006 (UTC).

Hello, this is user:ivygohnair. I agree with everything user:chandrannair has said above. I would just like to add (in order to dispell the notion that all I do is to edit chandrannair and vice versa) that the editing that I have done (in a fairly short period) has been quite considerable for a sixty year old like me who is not as agile as younger folks on the internet. I have added substantially to the Introduction to Singapore literature and have edited some other writer's pages. I have the intention of editing pages for other older notables in the field, like Goh Poh Seng, Robert Yeo, Lee Tzu Pheng,and Kirpal Singh (which do not exist yet in Wikipedia) and I have already written to some of them (yes they are all my friends, ("conflict of interest"?) to send me their bios) I also intend to add to Arthur Yap's and Edwin Thumboo's exisitng pages. Yes, I know (knew) them too, and each one of these notables would probably edit for user:chandrannair and user:ivygohnair, if only they were internet savy :-)

Hey, it's me again: user: ivygohnair: Before I hit the sack, a thought just occured to me which I must absolutely share with you. If we follow some of the arguments of certain wikipedia editors above, Sylvia Plath would have been accused of "conflict of interest" if she had written about her husband, Ted Hughes and vice versa. Good Nite.

—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Ivygohnair (talk • contribs) 02:48, 17 October 2006 (UTC).

Comment: Let's be nice to newcomers, as per Wikipedia:Please do not bite the newcomers. This seems like a case where newcomers not knowing the "rules" here. An author of 1 bestseller may be notable enough to get an article in an encyclopedia. Perhaps this biography needs some fixing, as per Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons. Deleting is probably unnecessary. --PFHLai 11:40, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

Help! how do you "sign" in when you make comments on this page? (Newcomer:User:ivygohnair)Ivygohnair 12:16, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

Hey, I found out how! thanks User:PFHLai! Ivygohnair 12:17, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

Hey, It's me again, sorry! Us seniors have too much time on our hands and won't sit on them. BTW I have been spending time reading up on some of the rules of Wikepedia. My impression is that most of them are guidelines and there should be some flexibility in their application. This is surely in the spirit of freedom of Wikipedia (which btw I think is a GREAT idea). There are clear-cut vanity cases, I am sure, where friends put friends up who are not notable. And the rule about not "knowing" the person you are editing should be a general guideline to prevent these cases. Now having said that, how on earth would you avoid the fact that a writer from Singapore (which is such a small country) would probably know another Singaporean writer he is editing? I just finished editing a page on Goh Poh Seng. I know Poh Seng personally from way back, so can you apply the "knowlege" guideline on me? Similiarly, when I first stumbled on Wikipedia, I was immediately struck by the gap that exists regarding older writers who do not seem to be well represented. My mission was to try and redress this and User: Chandrannair was just one of the notables I was going to edit. Should I be prevented from editing him, just because I know him intimately? Where is there a conflict of interest if the material uploaded fulfilled Wikipedia standards? Similiarly, when my page was threatened with immediate removal, should not User: Chandrannair who was also an expert in the matter intervene to try and save the page, just because he knows me ? Aren't there many cases in history when sons and daughters write biographies of the parents; and wives and husbands of their spouses? Thanks for listening to me. I guess I better sign off properly now.Ivygohnair 16:03, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

Hello, it's me again. I have just completed a page on Lee Tzu Pheng who is undoubtedly one of the best known poets in Singapore's history. Her best known poem "My Country and My People" has inspired many of us Singaporeans, old and young!Ivygohnair 19:16, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

I have read her book, though I'm not from Singapore and it's better than a lot of the stuff that makes it to the NY Times best seller list. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.91.147.159 (talk • contribs)

–New to all this in wikipedia... I think the mood to delete is harsh. This is a user who seems to have made a definite impact in a small place, and is trying to popularise the creative energies of Singapore. Let us be more forgiving! Besides it looks there is actual published reviews as testament to the work. Mcporpington 21:49, 18 October 2006 (UTC)mcporpington Sorry I meant to add to my comment above that the article should NOT be deleted! Mcporpington 21:56, 18 October 2006 (UTC)mcporpington

Hi - I am saddened to read such biting, petty comments and suggestions about deleting this article. This person has clearly contributed to Singapore literature and has also been cited by others. signed - Phillygal27

I did my military service in Singapore and I love the country. I vote to KEEP. I do not see any conflict of interest hereJean-Louis77 10:39, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

Hello, it's me again: Below is the full review of my book from the Asian Wall Street Journal.

AWSJ Review

Other Reviews: Other Reviews

According to Wikipedia's notability rules,if a book is not easily available,it would help if there are reliable reviews on the internet.


As I understand it, this is now a AfD (articles for deletion) debate so the main criterion for deletion should be "notability" according to wikipedia's rules.

BTW the Wikipedia guidelines also advises editors not to use words like "vanity" as this is unneccesarily harsh and unfair to "newbies" like me who may not know all the ropes. Thanks for listening.Ivygohnair 14:34, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

  • Strong Delete - Ignorance of the rules is not a valid argument for keeping an article. Vyse 16:30, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete. Not notable enough. utcursch | talk 06:59, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

The following is a comment I made on User: Utcursch discussion page. Which he had replied to (see below): "Hey I just discovered that you hate the caste system and want to delete the "List of Famous Nairs" very badly. It leads me to wonder whether your "delete" vote on my page was not a conflict of interest since my name is nair. Believe me neither my hubby nor I are believers in the caste system, otherwise he would not have married me! But having said that I was puzzled that a "friendly" (as you describe yourself) admin would vote "not notable enough" (without giving any explanation whatsoever) for a book which was favourably reviewed by both the local and international press and caused quite a stir when it was first published because it was one of the first books considered "critical" of Singapore.Ivygohnair 17:34, 20 October 2006 (UTC)"Ivygohnair 07:27, 24 October 2006 (UTC)


Hello, someone has deleted a favourable vote here. Admin please investigate!Ivygohnair 09:05, 20 October 2006 (UTC) _______________________________________________________________________________________________

Withdrawal of Article Ivy Goh Nair

As the current page of Ivy Goh Nair was uploaded by me, I wish to withdraw the article. This debate has degenerated to such a level that users are resorting to deleting positive comments and votes. Admin please can you do the neccesary follow-up?Chandrannair 14:28, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

I agree with User:Chandrannair's decision and under the circumstances I wish that my article be withdrawn. I wish to apologise to all the users who have written favourable comments and to thank them for their support. They can find me any time through google and the other search engines.Ivygohnair 14:37, 20 October 2006 (UTC)_ ______________________________________________________________________________________________


It seems that some users think that this debate should go on even after the above withdrawal request. User Utcursch (please see the discussion/talk page of his user page) is one of them and not only that, he tries to rally admins and other users to his cause by extending the debate to the Wikipedia talki: SGpedians forum which is peopled mostly by younger Singaporeans who may not have been born when my book was written. I therefore reproduce below his post on my user talk page and my reply:

"Dear Ms. Ivy Goh Nair, I indeed hate the caste system very much (I'm neither Dalit nor Brahmin -- I am anti-caste person). But that was not the reason I voted "Delete" at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Ivy Goh Nair. Had that been the reason, I would have probably moved many other articles to deletion: C. Sankaran Nair, Chandran Nair, Kavalappara Narayanan Nair etc.(have you never heard of the phrase "going for the soft belly?":-)81.249.80.83 08:41, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

Writing a book doesn't make a personal notable enough for Wikipedia. The fact that Ivy Goh Nair was written by your husband makes it less verifiable (please see Wikipedia:Autobiography). The only criteria for voting delete was non-notability -- please have a look at Wikipedia:Notability (people). I don't claim that I have excellent knowledge about journalism and literature in Singapore, but Wikipedia:Search engine test indicates that you're not notable enough to have an article on Wikipedia: [1][2]. Most of the few search results that I got are from personal sites such as eurekster.com, ivygohnair.tk, brinkster.com etc.

I have dropped a note at Wikipedia talk:SGpedians' notice board -- the discussion page for Wikipedians from Singapore and Wikipedians who are writing about Singapore-related topics. I have invited them to to have a look at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Ivy Goh Nair. Just in case the article gets deleted, I will suggest that the content of the article be merged to User:Ivygohnair (see Wikipedia:Userfication).

I hope that this issue doesn't discourage you from contributing to Wikipedia. Please don't take this as an insult. Everyday, Wikipedia gets lots of articles about various people, all of whom may not be notable enough (emphasis on "enough"). Thanks. utcursch | talk 08:26, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

Hey

I don't know why this debate is persisting as the request has been made to redraw the article by the editors themselves. By the way, Chandran Nair did not write the book. The book was a collection of columns, I wrote for the business times under the pseudonym of B J WU. All this is verifiable! It shows how prejudiced, false and ingnorant your assumptions are. As an admin, I am asking you to restore the favourable comment that was deleted by someone just before we made the decision to withdraw the article. Let's see whether you will do that instead of searching for needles in a haystack to use against people you seem to have a grudge against. I read up Wikipedia rules and while admins are greatly appreciated for the work they do for the site (I am sure you yourself have done a lot) they have an even greater reponsiblity to be fair and even handed . . . . ."Ivygohnair 06:45, 24 October 2006 (UTC)Ivygohnair 07:08, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

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The result was (not-so) speedy keep due to withdrawn nomination, with no arguments for deletion. --Coredesat 07:54, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] List of search engines

This article can never be more than a directory, Wikipedia is not a collection of directories. I retract my support for this deletion per WP:SNOW. HighInBC 21:20, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

  • Keep as each entry on this page has a wikipedia article, in fact, that's a requirement to the list. It's also formatted by type, so it's not redundant to the Search Engines Category. FrozenPurpleCube 21:33, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
From WP:NOT:
Directories, directory entries, TV/Radio Guides, or a resource for conducting business. For example, an article on a radio station generally should not list upcoming events, current promotions, phone numbers, schedules etc., although mention of major events or promotions may be acceptable. Furthermore, the Talk pages associated with an article are for talking about the article, not for conducting the business of the topic of the article. Wikipedia is not the yellow pages.
This just does not seem encyclopedic to me. HighInBC 21:36, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
Could you make your argument without quoting from policy pages? Really, most of what you said, I don't even see the relationship to this list anyway. You might as well be arguing we shouldn't have list of cars or list of dog breeds. This is an organized list of material that's already in Wikipedia, and I don't see how it's any different from any other list. FrozenPurpleCube 22:14, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
I have made all the point I want to, I don't think lists are encyclopedic. I was under the impression that this was commonly accepted. However if this is not consensus I will not fight it. HighInBC 01:11, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
Nope, lists are very much an important part of any encyclopedia, be it US presidents, English Monarchs or Battles in WW2, as they are helpful ways to organize valuable information. Yes, it is certainly possible to come up with worthless lists like List of red-headed stepchildren or list of people who have slept in the Lincoln Bedroom, but this is not clearly one of them. The search engine article is useful, there's no arguing with that. Having information on notable search engines is also useful. Therefore, a list of those search engine is hardly not encyclopedic on its face. In fact, I think it's something that is useful to Wikipedia, as merely having information without the organization to access it effectively is hardly desirable. That is perhaps the most persuasive argument in keeping lists, at least to me. Obviously, YMMV, but I do think you chose poorly in nominating this article. FrozenPurpleCube 01:31, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep - I've helped patrol this page, and while it is somewhat redundant with the related Category, I think its organization is useful. There also is some precedent for having structured lists similar to their categories: List of operating systems, List of automobile manufacturers, or List of comic books, just to name a few. --ZimZalaBim (talk) 22:08, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep I think it adds to Wikipedia as an encyclopedia. Benn Newman 22:18, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep per above. Policy above of not creating a list is meant to avoid excessive listings, stupid ones (e.g., "people who carry swords, I saw once"), or fancruft. But this is legit. -Patstuart(talk)(contribs) 22:18, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep well maintained and categorized list. per everyone above --Ageo020 (Talk • Contribs) 22:30, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Query What can this page do that sub-categories cannot? Benn Newman 22:42, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
Put everything on one page, for example, or add annotations/footnotes if it were desired. For example, the list could add date of founding. FrozenPurpleCube 22:46, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep WP is not a list, means WP is not merely a list.

There are many hundred lists in WP, some with annotation, it can serve as a very useful index to the material. People use lists as finding aids: "I'm not sure what its called exactly, but if I can look at a list I'll pick it out"

A list is effective because it focuses subjects. This can be done in a more complicated way with categories, but this may be overkill for this subject.

There is a more important problem, which is why I stopped-- I do not think it is clear what a search engine is.
For additional comments on this point, see the talk page for the article. DGG 03:38, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
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The result was delete. --07:56, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Tupac impersonator

There is no indication that this is a widespread or notable phenomenon. A Google search shows fewer than 200 hits on the term. [53]. Previous attempts at a Prod were unsuccessful[54], so moving to AfD. --NovaSTL 21:33, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

  • Delete. The subject only has 34 unique Google hits [55]. Gdo01 21:59, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
Delete Phrase is not more than the some of its parts. - Richfife 22:18, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete per nom as prodder. MER-C 01:49, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete per nom. --Richard 05:22, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
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The result was Merge into Chai Ling. KrakatoaKatie 05:33, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Jenzabar

Notability questioned by User:Augusoft. —Quarl (talk) 2006-10-16 21:42Z

  • Keep, or merge to Chai Ling. It's pretty clear the company meets WP:CORP through the media coverage of its founder. --Mereda 07:12, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete, or merge to Chai Ling. Company nn, spam. Company does not conform to WP:CORP at all see section for "Criteria for companies and corporations" in WP:CORP. Founder's notability does not automatically make the company notable 217.69.18.226 16:26, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
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The result was no consensus. Please defer merge related discussion to article talk. Can't sleep, clown will eat me 22:21, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Eltham East Primary School

Primary schools are generally not notable, generally it is only high schools that are listed. I find no reason why this school has any reason to be listed based on its notability. TheRanger 21:49, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

  • Delete per nom. Notability is not asserted nor can it be. Looking in Lexis-Nexis, I see that there are sources about a choir associated with the school, which justify an article about the choir perhaps but certainly not the school. I can find no non-trivial, non-local sources whose primary subject is the school itself. It even fails the excessively permissive WP:SCHOOL. Pan Dan 22:52, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete No assertion of notability.--Húsönd 23:00, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Note: This debate has been included in the list of Australia-related deletions. -- Longhair\talk 03:12, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep Verifiable and notable. Merchbow 15:49, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Please explain how its notable you have left same reply on several AfD's without details.TheRanger 19:47, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Merge with the town page per WP:SCHOOLS. — RJH (talk) 20:46, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Merge with the town page or respective school district as WP:SCHOOLS logically suggests. RFerreira 01:03, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Merge per lack of content. Cynical 11:42, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep all enduring public institutions. Lack of content is not a valid deletion criteria. --Centauri 14:33, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
    • (1) "Lack of content" is a valid merge criterion. (2) "No demonstration of notability" is a valid deletion criterion. (3) "Enduring public institution" is not a valid keep criterion. (I suppose you would favor having an article on every DMV office?) Pan Dan 16:49, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
      • "Notability" is not even properly defined - let alone being a valid deletion criterion. Verifiability is a valid retention criterion. --Centauri 01:52, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
        • Notability in general has not been defined in any official Wikipedia policy. However, by analogy with existing policies (e.g. WP:CORP), which require multiple, non-trivial, featured coverage, I have made an argument above (and I think it's a good one) as to why this school is not notable. Your argument as to why it's notable is based on a sweeping (and I think unjustified) generalization. Pan Dan 22:45, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep. Rebecca 02:42, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment Keep why? Just saying keep is not adding to this AfD, as this is not a vote. What is needed is reasons based on wokipedia policy as to why it should be keep or deleted.TheRanger 14:53, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
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The result was delete. —Cryptic 11:27, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Adam Hinawi

Possible hoax or at least unverifiable. Google searches for "Adam Hinawi" Sudan and "Adam Hinawi" art turn up nothing unrelated to Wikipedia. [56][57] - Bootstoots 22:03, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

  • Delete unless reliable sources are added verifying claims. Those are of course non-negotiable, but it would not surprise me if a very notable Sudanese artist had no online mention.--Fuhghettaboutit22:40, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete. Article provides no sources whatsoever, much less reliable ones, and none have been yet found despite due diligence of nom. -- Satori Son 05:06, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete as hoax or vanity. KrakatoaKatie 05:41, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
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The result was CSD G11 - CrazyRussian talk/email 01:02, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Vaps

Advertising. This was prodded and described "Crypto-spam. This is advertising." The prod tag was then removed anonymously. The history is telling - ENeville 22:07, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

  • Delete as advert and as blatant copyright violation from [58].--Fuhghettaboutit 22:34, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
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The result was delete. --Mr. Lefty (talk) 23:04, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] ANTHOLOGY OF MOROCCAN SHORT STORY

  • Delete. Wikipedia is for encyclopedia articles only, not free word processing. Georgia guy 22:08, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete - this isn't an encyclopedic article and can't help but being original research. —Keakealani 22:09, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete - as per above --ArmadilloFromHell 22:18, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Speedy. JFW | T@lk 22:32, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Speedy since I'm guessing the author(s) probably didn't really intend to release this under the GFDL. Even if they did, this isn't an encyclopedia article. Andrew Lenahan - Starblind 22:53, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete per above. Please.--Húsönd 22:59, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete, WP:NOT a CV writer.--Nilfanion (talk) 21:01, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
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The result was keep. Daniel.Bryant 10:24, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] 1717 East Ninth Building

This is yet another skyscraper up for deletion in Cleveland, but unlike 55 Public Square, which passed, this one is clearly un-notable. BarryBonds100 22:24, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

  • Weak Keep Apperently it was one of the first high-rises in Cleveland. I'm not completely sure if that makes it notable, but for now my stance is a weak keep. Lorty 23:08, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Weak Keep Borderline of notability. I'm also against transforming a blue link into a red link on List of tallest buildings in Cleveland.--Húsönd 04:10, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep Since Cleveland is a big city, its buildings should have an artical, or at least put in Cleveland's artical. Rhino131 6:18, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete as unsourced; the reference claimed in the article is more like spam than a reference, especially because the partial public data on the building are about four clicks away from the link provided. GRBerry 21:02, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
    • I fixed the reference to meet the actual article, so keep. Lorty 21:38, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep all large buildings and structures in major urban centres. --Centauri 14:34, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Weak Keep only due to the fact that it was one of the first high risers in Clevland. Pic would be nice however.--†ĥε þяíћɔЄ öf ɒĥɑямäTalk to Me 22:50, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
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The result was downward delete. Can't sleep, clown will eat me 22:25, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Yoga for Thyroid Disease

POV fork extolling the benefits of yoga for various thyroid disorders, completely disregarding the normal pathophysiological mechanisms that underly thyroid disease, poorly sourced, and lectures the reader on blood pressure. Not encyclopedic. Should be deleted, or maximally merged with the relevant thyroid disease articles. JFW | T@lk 22:27, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

Delete. POV. Unencyclopaedic. Gnusmas 22:43, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

  • Strongest possible delete Wikipedia cannot, should not, and must not give medical advice of any kind, especially advice referring to "a blockage of life force" and other pseudoscience mumbo-jumbo. Andrew Lenahan - Starblind 22:58, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Weak delete - I had a go at the article; trying to imposing some structure, wikify and qualifying some of the claims originally stated as facts. Two issues here as far as citing goes - firstly is it so used by a significant number of people worldwide (whether or not it works), I agree a single self-interested source is poor choice to verify and fails to meet WP:Reliable sources criteria (unlike a national newspaper citing numbers for example). Secondly is the issue whether its claims can be verified (again by reliable sources). We have Bloodletting as a historical article on the development of modern medicine, yet it provides no citations to confirm it was of any benefit. So I tend to feel alternative medicine topics are acceptable if notable by usage (rather than speculative wishful thinking claims of a clinic or practitioner), and claims of action need be carefully edited to NPOV unless convincing evidence. This article for now fails to verify that yoga practioners do really try to manage overt thyroid disease, and on this basis I currently vote for delete (unless CAM practioners can rapidly improve on the article). David Ruben Talk 22:59, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • It may indeed be used, and if so it is worth a mention - but the main point is not whether it works, or whether it is quackery or good medicine, but whether it merits an article in its own right. As a sentence in Medical uses of yoga (or just in Yoga, and as another in the section on diseases under Thyroid, maybe, but not on its own. We don't have an article on ACE inhibitors for reducing hypertension (or at least I hope we don't!). We have one on ACE inhibitors which refers among other things to their role in BP control; we have one on hypertension which mentions ACE inhibitors as one possible control measure. Get rid of it! Gnusmas 06:44, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
  • I've removed the "advice" since it conflicts with the policy on disclaimers. All unsourced (!reputable secondary sources???) and POV claims should be removed, and it should be clearly stated that there is no medical evidence. But other than that, it should be kept.--Steven Fruitsmaak (Reply) 11:45, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete, even with cleanup to remove the POV there is no encyclopedic content here.--Nilfanion (talk) 20:59, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete without prejudice to re-creation. There is not a shred of credible evidence to suggest it works... unless we're in a physiological la la land. Yoga can reduce anxiety... but that's where I say it ends.[59] As for David Ruben's points-- (1) bloodletting, it does actually have a place in modern medicine, (2) there is an article called "Yoga and Thyroid Disease" out there. A search for "Yoga for thyroid disease" on Google yields 402 hits... "Yoga and thyroid disease" yields 1,690 hits-- that isn't much. At this time, I think mention in thyroid disease, if at all, would be more appropriate. Nephron  T|C 02:24, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
Whether bloodletting has a place in modern medicine is beside the point. It was historically an important technique and it is worthy of an encyclopaedia article regardless of whether or not it is still used and regardless of whether or not it works. Yoga for Thyroid Disease should indeed be deleted - but because it's insignificant, not because it is rubbish. Gnusmas 12:47, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
Precisely my point (although perhaps not as clear as I had intended) - issue is not if works or not (any such claims need be cited and in NPOV terms), but whether article should be deleted comes down to whether it is in significant use or not - here in UK, I agree insignificant. David Ruben Talk 01:32, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
I think "obscure but correct" versus "obscure and rubbish" makes a difference. As an example, Fecal bacteriotherapy is obscure. Google gives one 1,120 hits for "Fecal bacteriotherapy". Nevertheless, I think the article has its place. It is accepted as an alternative treatment and has been studied with some rigour. Nephron  T|C 05:20, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete --WS 11:20, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete per Nephron -- Samir धर्म 04:33, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
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The result was delete. --Mr. Lefty (talk) 23:00, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Frankie Dunlop

Was originally put up for speedy-deletion, but there are Google results. P.B. Pilhet / Talk 22:27, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

  • Delete for no content. JHMM13 (T | C) 23:00, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete & Redirect - CrazyRussian talk/email 23:02, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Speedy A7, no assertion of notability (and redir where?)--Nilfanion (talk) 20:56, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Speedy delete, under CSD A1, and CSD A7. I'd delete it myself, but since its here already... Titoxd(?!?) 20:59, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
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The result was Keep. KrakatoaKatie 05:43, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] UC3 and Tracy Williams

Encyclopedically non-notable and defunct all-girl music group which was apparently dependent on Hooters sponsorship and USO tours. May have been a minor act at NFL games. Fails WP:MUSIC. Money quote from article:"The group is apparently on hiatus (possibly permanently), and has not performed or recorded together since early 2005. In addition, their official website, www.uc3online.com, no longer works."

I am also nominating Tracy Williams, a UC3 member with her own article as failing WP:MUSIC. Bwithh 22:45, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

  • Keep. Once encyclopedic, always encyclopedic. A band that breaks up does not thereby cease to be notable. And they pass WP:MUSIC by their touring: "They have performed throughout the U.S. and overseas in several countries." --TruthbringerToronto (Talk | contribs) 23:28, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
    • 1) Being a part of a Hooters/USO tour of some US military bases is hardly the equivalent of having their own international concert tour in terms of profile and an indication of success 2) I don't think they were encyclopedically notable even before they became defunct Bwithh 23:54, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep Ugh. They shouldn't be notable, but they are. WP:MUSIC doesn't distinguish between package tours and tours organized around the group. - Richfife 00:35, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
Let me emphasize at this point that WP:MUSIC is a rough guideline subject to reasonable interpretation in the cause of upholding Wikipedia's standards as an authoritative, respected encyclopedia, rather than rule to be followed to the letter. Quote: "Please note that the failure to meet any of these criteria does not mean an article must be deleted; likewise, the meeting of any of these criteria does not mean that an article must be kept." Bwithh 01:28, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
Yes, the guidelines do say that, but I'm actually really allergic to gray area judgment calls like we're getting into here. If the article can be justifid under WP:MUSIC, then it really ought to stay. One man's common sense is another man's foolishness and making calls like this inevitably leads to edit wars, deletion reviews and all sorts of ugliness. - Richfife 03:37, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
Isn't that the neverending struggle for the soul of wikipedia? or more optimistically, the struggle for wikipedia's evolution? Bwithh 04:08, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
Sorta, kinda. But I think trying to find objective, reproducible standards can help get around that, and WP:MUSIC is one of them. We shouldn't deviate from it lightly. - Richfife 05:22, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep This satisfies both the letter and spirit of WP:MUSIC. The group received non-trivial coverage from multiple independent sources (though, this could be better illustrated in the article, than it is). An international tour clearly qualifies them. The nom seems to have a problem with the fact that its Hooters that sponsored it. Who cares who the sponsor is? Also, I echo the point, that notability is by nature *not* transitory. Once somebody acheives it, it can not fade. Also, lets keep in mind Tracy Williams was the most prominent member of this group, and she is easily notable, for her prior involvement in P.Y.T. (band), which predates UC3. They key item here, is that nobody is using Wikipedia to gain national or international exposure. Wiliams and UC3 had that, before the articles on them were made. --Rob 00:51, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
As I've already said, the "international Hooters/USO tour" doesn't indicate encyclopedic notability whether or not the group is still operative. I look forward to reading the non-trivial coverage you have indicated exists. There are none to be seen in the article at the moment. The newspaper article linked is transparently a bit of promo fluff. Bwithh 01:28, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment: The nominator's only reasoning for nominating Williams was her being a member of UC3. I request you specifically address her involvement in PYT, and her resultant notability that *predates* UC3. This wasn't addressed, and its not clear to me, if the nominator was aware of this at the time of nomination. I think this was a very bad use of combined nominations, as these two articles are quite unique (though, I of course, support keeping both). --Rob 01:05, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
Thanks for drawing my attention to PYT. In my initial opinion, this group should also be considered a good candidate for deletion discussion as a non-encyclopedically notable music group. I'll look further into this. Bwithh 01:28, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
Based on your comments above, it seems you never heard of PYT, until I told you about them (e.g you "thanked" me for bring them to your attention). This is only possible, if you didn't read the Tracy Williams article before nominating it (since PYT is half the content of the very small article). Can you please clarify if you actually read Tracy Williams before you nominated, or not? Anyway, if you wish to nominate PYT as well (as you threatened), I strongly urge you to fully read the entire article in advance. --Rob 03:20, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
Yes, I read the Tracey Williams article but I didn't bother to click on the PYT link before, and the article in general didn't register much on my brain. I look forward to reading the PYT in intricate detail Bwithh 04:08, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete UC3, no Allmusic entry, all the "bios" I can find are copied-and-pasted press releases, even fails the Youtube test. Next thing we get is profiles of Hooters waitresses. Keep Tracy Williams and mention UC3 in her bio. ~ trialsanderrors 00:09, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep Tracy Williams certainly; if she's toured with acts like Destiny's Child, she's notable. And I think we should Keep UC3 as well, though I wouldn't mind seeing the article rewritten and shortened. It seems like they've toured fairly extensively and gotten a certain amount of press. Even if it's on USO tours, that still means a lot of people have seen them.

Argh; last comment is by me; forgot to sign it. NoahB 03:29, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

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The result was delete. --Coredesat 07:57, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Ehsan Aleaziz

Deprodded. Suspicion of a hoax. - CrazyRussian talk/email 22:59, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

  • Delete. As the original prod-der, I re-state my reasoning: "Sources give the CFO as Warren C. Jenson." ... discospinster talk 23:18, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Speedy delete apparent hoax attempt. The "EA" in EA Games stands for Electronic Arts, not Ehsan Aleaziz. Andrew Lenahan - Starblind 00:10, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Speedy delete as above (and is there no way to ban the user for creating hoaxes?) --ArmadilloFromHell 02:59, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
    • The above shows the highest concentration of super- to ultra-high color co-efficient signatures in any known location on the Wikipedia. 68.39.174.238 11:35, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
While the signatures themselves display obvious and wanton and egregious creativity, the above organization is based solely on automatic or nearly automatic neurophysical repetition and pattern used since time immemorial and is possibly very likely lacking in the requisite originality to possess a copyright, per the Soverign Coort. Hence they are also, per the same Coort, offically likely very possibly art. 68.39.174.238 10:02, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
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The result was "speedy" delete. --Coredesat 07:59, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Mu Beta Zeta

vanity page for NN-organization at some North Carolina summer camp DesertSky85451 23:28, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

  • Speedy. Clearly nn. JHMM13 (T | C) 23:42, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Speedy Delete A7. No notability at all, likely vanity. Google renders 9 results, Yahoo 6 (all unrelated).--Húsönd 03:58, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
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The result was Delete - No evidence provided for the existence of the concept other than the creator's original research. Yomanganitalk 17:05, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Random Shutdown Syndrome

Neo/protologism, apparently: became popular in 2k6 to quote the article. However, some ghits make me reluctant to outright prod: [Check Google hits]. Still, I wouldn't consider this one WP:V. (|-- UlTiMuS 23:40, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

  • There's no other article which deals with a subject even close to this one, and 13,500 google hits is not to be sneezed at. Every example noted has a link in the references section. Cancerward 23:56, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
    • There is no references section in the article. There's an external links section. External links are not references. Two of the linked-to articles, on Toshiba and Compaq notebooks, talk about various specific models of notebook PCs overheating and possibly shutting down. The causes of overheating aren't even the same across both, and none of them describe a syndrome, let alone call it "random shutdown syndrome". In fact, that phrase occurs nowehere on either of the articles. A third article, on Dell notebooks, similarly mentions no syndrome, and is a collection of pseudonymous comments, added to a product review, about what will cause that particular model of notebook to overheat — again with different causes to the other two brands.

      The first external link listed, discussed by the fifth page linked to, appears to be the single-idea web site whose single idea this article is propounding, to which the other links are being added in what we might call "Random External Link Syndrome". It is a collection of pseudonymous web loggers posting "my MacBook shut down!" comments, with no indication that there's any fact checking or peer review going on, no indication of that a consistent syndrome has even been identified, and lots of comments on the level of "Any ideas as to the problem? It seems as if my RAM is affected or something.", which hardly makes this an adequate source for an encyclopaedia article. Uncle G 01:01, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

      • Actually, the Toshiba, Compaq, Apple, and Dell problems referred to in the external links are occurring for the same reasons -- poor design causing overheating followed by shutdown. The article title may be a "neologism" but perhaps there was no phrase to describe it until recently. As for the Dell article, it's difficult to find an "official looking" article about the problem if Dell won't admit to it. Perhaps [60]provides some better link ideas. Cancerward 01:20, 17 October 2006 (UTC) At Apple link Apple admits to the problem. "Tech & U" and "PC Magazine" is about as official as it gets at this point.Cancerward 05:53, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
        • Glibly describing the causes as "poor design" is the only way in which the reasons can be said to be the same. In truth, they are quite different, and entirely disconnected. And the Apple web site makes no mention of a syndrome. What we have here is not a documented syndrome, but a pile of external links to an arbitrary list of articles about notebook PCs failing, most of which are anecdotal at best, in support of a novel synthesis of these data and a conclusion that is being drawn for the first time here in Wikipedia, in contravention of our Wikipedia:No original research policy. A documented syndrome would have someone, outside of Wikipedia, already documenting it. Uncle G 11:21, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
  • The topic may be real -- you've certainly documented a rash of disconnected laptop shutdowns -- but a neologism is still a neologism. Until a third party uses this term I have no evidence of notability and verifiability, so I have to move to merge to laptop and delete. Alba 04:18, 17 October 2006 (UTC) Vote changed due to evidence: see below. Alba 15:24, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
    • There is a third-party reference to this phrase in print, in the computer journal "Tech & U" on 10 August 2006, page 14 (courtesy Factiva). Plus the PC Magazine/eWeek/extremetech.com references (basically the same article by Scott Ferguson linked to) -- don't know if these have appeared in print though. Cancerward 05:28, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
      • The PC Magazine article supports MacBook#Problems, since it discusses just one specific make of personal computer. It doesn't support creating a whole article about a supposed, and completely undocumented, syndrome. Uncle G 11:21, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
      • In that case, you have a documented case for merging to MacBook and redirecting. Until you have references describing it for all laptops it's not a separate term. Alba 15:24, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete per Uncle G's rationale and the fact that it's a neologism. BigHaz - Schreit mich an 06:09, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
  • weak merge While the nature of problems with Laptop computers is certainly notable and verifiable, I'm not sure this specific article is the proper place to offer information on it. I recommend putting whatever information is worth saving in the laptop article which is curiously silent on things like this, and encouraging the contributors to this article to work on it instead. I'm only saying merge because it might save some time. FrozenPurpleCube 16:55, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
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The result was no consensus. Please defer merge discussion to article talk. Can't sleep, clown will eat me 22:06, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Madison Country Day School

Primary schools are generally not notable, generally it is only high schools that are listed. I find no reason why this school has any reason to be listed based on its notability. It also fails the proposed guideline WP:SCHOOL. TheRanger 23:59, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

  • Delete Fails to assert notability.--Húsönd 03:55, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete Does not meet WP:SCHOOL. Catchpole 06:40, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep Verifiable and notable. Merchbow 15:50, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Please explain how its notable you have left same reply on several AfD's without details.TheRanger 19:44, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Merge with the school district page per WP:SCHOOLS. — RJH (talk) 20:42, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Merge due to lack of content. Cynical 11:44, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep all enduring public institutions. --Centauri 14:35, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
    • Comment. This is an unreasonable position, as it implies having a Wikipedia article for every DMV office. Here, this user incredibly claimed to favor that. Pan Dan 22:08, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete or Merge. Do not keep. Vegaswikian 21:20, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep, not super notable but the school exists and is verifiable. All schools have some encyclopedic value. bbx 15:28, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment Which standard shows that this school has encyclopedic value? I have been unable to find anything in news sorces to cite on this school at all. —Preceding unsigned comment added by TheRanger (talk • contribs)
  • Keep per Centauri and bbx. --Myles Long 17:01, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep all schools are notable to their community, notability is a relative term and not a valid deletion criteria, verifiability is (and its also not something thats relative... it either is or it isnt).  ALKIVAR™ 17:03, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
    • (1) "Notable to their community" has nothing to do with encyclopdic notability. (2) Non-notability is a valid deletion criterion, otherwise we wouldn't have guidelines like WP:CORP or WP:BIO. Pan Dan 22:04, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
  • By analogy with aforementioned guidelines WP:CORP and WP:BIO, which require multiple non-trivial sources featuring the subject, and having actually looked for sources myself and coming up empty, I say delete. (This school even fails the excessively permissive proposed guideline WP:SCHOOL.) Pan Dan 17:38, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep for reasons which are explained at User:Silensor/Schools (see also User:JoshuaZ/Schools if interested). Nominator appears to be repeatedly and conveniently ignoring the fact that WP:SCHOOLS suggests merging, not deletion, in borderline cases. Silensor 19:34, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
    • You misunderstand the nominator's rationale for deletion. It's based on non-notability, not on WP:SCHOOLS. He mentions that the school fails the criteria of WP:SCHOOLS only to bolster the argument for deletion, as those criteria are perceived as being overly inclusive. Pan Dan 21:52, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
  • keep please per silensor it is notable and verifiable too Yuckfoo 21:25, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
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The result was no consensus. Please defer merge related discussion to article talk. Can't sleep, clown will eat me 22:16, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Maple Dale Middle School

Primary schools / Middle Schools which theis is are generally not notable, generally it is only high schools that are listed. I find no reason why this school has any reason to be listed based on its notability. It also fails the proposed guideline WP:SCHOOL. TheRanger 00:08, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

  • Delete Fails to assert notability.--Húsönd 03:55, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete Does not meet WP:SCHOOL. Catchpole 06:40, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep Verifiable and notable. Merchbow 15:50, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Please explain how its notable you have left same reply on several AfD's without details. TheRanger 19:39, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Merge with the school district page. It does not meet the WP:SCHOOLS guidelines foa stand-alone page, so the recommended action is the merge for a valid school. — RJH (talk) 20:41, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep competes in national extra-curricular activity competitions, therefore meets WP:SCHOOLS . Cynical 11:44, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep all enduring public institutions. --Centauri 14:35, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete or Merge. Do not keep. I don't see yellow pages information or the section on food servce as being encylopdeic. Vegaswikian 21:22, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
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