Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Little Ivies

This page is an archive of the proposed deletion of the article below. Further comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or on a Votes for Undeletion nomination). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result of the debate was No Consensus. Redwolf24 (talk) 01:26, 30 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Little Ivies

Personal essay. Original research. Non-neutral point of view. Article itself notes that there "is no authoritative list." So, where did the list come from? The personal authority of contributors, I suppose. It also notes that the term is "misleading." If good evidence is presented that this is a frequently used term that refers to a list of schools that is as well-defined as Public Ivies then I'd accept the topic as encyclopedic. Nominator votes "delete." Dpbsmith (talk) 13:15, 23 August 2005 (UTC)

• Delete per nominator. (We just did the Midwestern Ivy League too.) JDoorjam 13:22, 23 August 2005 (UTC)
• Delete. I have never heard of such a thing. Jawed 15:09, 23 August 2005 (UTC)
• Delete. Google seems to show that the term is non-notable. If the author can provide authoratitive sources for the list from (e.g.) a newspaper, that's a different matter. Sdedeo 15:26, 23 August 2005 (UTC)
  • Keep. Excellent research from other VfD votes convinces me otherwise. These sources should be included in the main article which will surely prevent it from future VfDs. Sdedeo 17:06, 23 August 2005 (UTC)
• Keep, clean up, expand. It's been a long time since I was up on current college-application slang, but it appears to be a widely used term (I certainly knew what it meant before I saw the article). Google for "Little Ivies" and "US News" finds a few dozen hits where the term is used on academic sites: e.g., this Harvard mag article assumes you know what it means. There doesn't need to be any sort of "official" list for it to be a generally-understood term. Bikeable 15:35, 23 August 2005 (UTC)
• Delete and or merge with Public Ivies if there's any information that Public Ivies doesn't have. Lullabye Muse 15:38, 23 August 2005 (UTC)
• Keep; unlike Midwestern Ivy League this term is in fact has historical and specific use in reference to the listed institutions listed, akin to Seven Sisters or the Five Colleges. See for instance such users as Associate Justice Kennedy, Episcopal High School of Houston, Midwest Elite Hockey League, The Williams Club. It is a completely different set of schools from the Public Ivies and they should emphatically not be merged. - choster 17:04, 23 August 2005 (UTC)
  • Hey, wait: Amherst belongs to the Five Colleges. Does it belong to the Little Ivies too? If so, then, what about the Seven Sisters: are they Little Ivies? If not, why not? Most All (I don't want to start any arguments!) of them are academically fine, fairly old, and socially respectable. Dpbsmith (talk) 23:11, 23 August 2005 (UTC)
• Keep, a common term esp. for Amherst and Williams. Christopher Parham (talk) 17:24, 2005 August 23 (UTC)
  • Anyone got any reference that could serve as some kind of external authority for which colleges belong, and what, if anything it means other than "good college?" Most of the references cited so far do seem to "assume you know what it means." Dpbsmith (talk) 23:04, 23 August 2005 (UTC)
    • I don't especially think we need one. It means, effectively, small, old, private liberal arts schools in the Northeast United States. What schools exactly should be included is a matter of content for editors to determine. I'm taking the liberty of removing Davidson, which was added by an anon and for which I can find zero relevant hits on Google, and which is by location alone questionable. Christopher Parham (talk) 00:57, 2005 August 24 (UTC)
      • Well (I know this is OT here but we have a group discussing it here) if the article is kept, as seems likely, I'm thinking it should be revised drastically. Your above definition sounds plausible, anyone got an external source for that definition or anything like it? I'd add "academically distinguished" to the list of adjectives. And apparently only colleges that were historically men's college count are included, right? No Wellesley or Smith, which otherwise would meet your criteria. I'm thinking that the article should say it is a vague, generic term for: small old liberal arts colleges that are academically distinguished, located in the Northeast U.S., and historically were men's colleges, as exemplified by Amherst and Williams. With a note on the Talk page strongly discouraging listmaking, because, unlike the Ivy League or the Five Colleges or the Public Ivies, there is no definitive list or objective criterion for inclusion. Any such list is subject to the same objections as the "list of notable colleges" which was VfDed years ago. Dpbsmith (talk) 12:22, 24 August 2005 (UTC)
• keep Trollderella 21:04, 23 August 2005 (UTC)
• Delete, arbitrary list, barely googles. Radiant_>|< 08:16, August 24, 2005 (UTC)
• Delete. This material warrants one or maybe two sentences in the "Terminology" section of the Ivy League article. Pick the most illuminating quote out of the usage examples and incorporate it there. (Note that the "Associate Justice Kennedy" link doesn't actually include the phrase "little ivies", saying instead "Little Ivy League". It illustrates the general concept, but not the specific term.) I trust everyone remembers the Cynic's Dictionary definition of the Ivy League — eight schools who agree to play each other in football so that one of them will win. Anville 16:18, 24 August 2005 (UTC)
• Delete as per above --Dysepsion 19:25, 24 August 2005 (UTC)
• Keep Unlike Midwestern Ivy League, this is not an invented term and actually has currency. That's reason enough to keep it. Individual contibutors are then free to quibble over what schools to include and support their arguments accordingly. I think incorporating "Little Ivies" into the Ivy League article is a particularly bad idea. That league is defined as only 8 schools, and an elaboration of the "Little Ivies" beyond their present (brief) mention there opens the door for every other other college wanting to be mentioned as some kind of "Ivy." If there are "Rust Belt Ivies," "Pacific Rim Ivies," "Middle Eastern Ivies" etc, let the contributor create a new article where the legitimacy of the term can be discussed and decided on. -18.95.1.22 20:04, 24 August 2005 (UTC)
• Keep. It seems notable (though obviously not a hugely popular term.) Google isn't the end-all be-all of determining notability. Since it was nominated, some good work has been put into this article to provide sources and expand the article. I think this is a good entry that has some potential. ~ Syrae Faileas 20:36, 24 August 2005 (UTC)
• Keep. Some aspects of this article probably require discussion, but there is no question that this term is in common usage. The list is ill-defined by it's nature, but that isn't reason to delete the article. However, pointing out how arbitrary the inclusion of some schools (after Amherst/Williams), is essential to understanding the usage of the term. Also, the 2003 Wall Street Journal ranking of "Feeder schools" used this term in reference to Williams.
• KEEP. Term is common. Neutrality^talk 01:56, August 27, 2005 (UTC)
• KEEP.The "real" Ivy League was similarly an informal grouping of colleges until it was formally organized. However, in that time period "Ivy League" was an accepted and used term. The lackof a formal organization for the "little Ivies" is not grounds to deny the concept its own page. [[Cjs56 03:22, 29 August 2005 (UTC)]]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in an undeletion request). No further edits should be made to this page.