Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Lionel Bryer

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was Keep. ---J.S ^(T/C) 22:34, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Lionel Bryer

• Delete notability not apparent, fails the professor test. Just H 16:01, 25 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Um, how many professors are Rhodes Scholars and Harvard Fellows? His Guardian obit seems to indicate the importance of his musical activities, although his professional career was as a dentist. I would say keep. As founder or co-founder of two youth orchestras and a festival, working with major conductors, and official EU sponsorship, that's something. The ECYO/EUYO seems to have played a strong "arts diplomacy" role at times.[1] --Dhartung | Talk 22:56, 25 December 2006 (UTC)
• Delete per non. Unsourced obit. Edison 23:57, 25 December 2006 (UTC)
• Strong Keep--Please Look at the article. He is not a professor. Keep the professor test (such as it is) for people who are. Not everyone with an advanced degree is a professor. He is notable as a musical impresario: Aberdeen International Youth Festival & European Community Youth Orchestra are major projects. Needs a few sources, but this is eminently verifiable. DGG 06:51, 26 December 2006 (UTC)
• Keep Nomination is weak and the nominator has not done his homework; this man is not a "professor" he was along with his musical endeavors a successful dentist and philanthropist. I've sourced several obituaries to the article and these are just a few among many. There is also extensive online discussion of his notability. This is obviously not a vanity entry and notability is clearly established by the three non-trivial sources now referenced from the article. In addition to the sources, he is the recipient of two major notable awards the Rhodes Scholarship and a Harvard Fellowhip - multiple awards are clear evidence of notability per Wikipedia guidelines. --Kevin Murray 07:25, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

Comment Those wishing to keep the article should add more "independent, reliable and verifiable:" sources than 2 obits and an "appreciation." If he was notable over a long career as an impresario, there should have been articles about him along the way, not just obituaries. Articles about the music festivals which make more than a passing reference to him would help to support his notability. Edison 16:27, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

• This is getting into some real hair-splitting. As volunteer editors we shouldn't be sent out on research missions to fulfill expectations beyond the basic guidelines which call for multiple (two or more) independent and non-trivial sources. The information in the obituaries is compelling enough to demonstrate that there is probably plenty of pre-web printed data on the man - let it go and be productive. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Kevin Murray (talk • contribs) 17:34, 27 December 2006 (UTC).
• That's fascinating, Edison. Would you please cite appropriate policy, as obituaries are not listed as non-eligible per WP:BIO. --Dhartung | Talk 21:42, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

Here's the requested policy citation:

The person has been the primary subject of multiple non-trivial published works whose source is independent of the person. * This criterion includes published works in all forms, such as newspaper articles, magazine articles, books, scholarly papers, and television documentaries2 except for the following: o Media reprints of the person's autobiography or self-promotional works. o Works carrying merely trivial coverage, such as newspaper articles that just mention the person in passing, telephone directory listings, or simple records of births and deaths.

It depends where and what the obituary is. In this case, the obituary in the Times, one of the 2 major UK national newspapers, is 500 words long, with two pictures of LB, one rehearsing the Youth Orchestra, and one more formal portrait. The obituary in the Guardia, ditto in importance, with headline:" Musical idealist whose enthusiasm gave birth to a great European youth orchestra" of 250 words long. These are no mentions in "simple records of birth and death" such a a paid death notice in a local paper. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by DGG (talk • contribs) 19:54, 28 December 2006 (UTC).

Yes, a simple record of death in no way describes what we have here. My vote (per below) remains the same.Shawn in Montreal 22:00, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

• Weak delete, not well sourced. CRGreathouse (t | c) 09:43, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
• Keep You're not going to find a lot of online citations for figures whose work took place prior to the 1980s, I think. He seems notable enough.Shawn in Montreal 18:28, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
• Keep passes WP:BIO, even with the minimal online citations; this sourcing debate comes up every time there is a question of pre -1980's persons, although I have noticed that there are more and more sites that are putting up "archival" materials that are making this less pertinent! SkierRMH 05:36, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
• Keep Extensive obits in both The Times and The Guardian assert his notability. --DeLarge 18:26, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.