Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Liberty Middle School (Virginia)
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- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was KEEP. -Docg 02:09, 18 February 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Liberty Middle School (Virginia)
Multiple AFD More Fairfax County, Virginia middle schools. Notable? I don't think so. Brianyoumans 07:34, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
- Also included: Mark Twain Middle School (Virginia), Carl Sandburg Middle School, Rocky Run Middle School, Longfellow Middle School. Note: the rest of the F. C. middle school articles are in Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Rachel Carson Middle School. Brianyoumans 07:56, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
- Keep. It probably fails WP:NN, but I'm partial to middle school articles as they attract middle school students to participate constructively. --Selket Talk 08:18, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
- And high school articles attract students to participate constructively as well? I thought they were notorious vandalism magnets. A number of these articles have already attracted vandalism. Imagine if every middle school in the world had an article - who would revert all the vandals? Or verify any of the info? --Brianyoumans 08:26, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
- There are about 25000 middle schools in the United States. Giving each one a page would result in 1.5% increase in the total number of Wikipedia articles, so your fears of overwhelming Wikipedia with middle school pages is, I think, a little misplaced. Maybe it would be best to wait until WP:SCHOOLS3 is done before coming to a conclusion. --Selket Talk 08:42, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
- And high school articles attract students to participate constructively as well? I thought they were notorious vandalism magnets. A number of these articles have already attracted vandalism. Imagine if every middle school in the world had an article - who would revert all the vandals? Or verify any of the info? --Brianyoumans 08:26, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
- Keep - I too favor featuring educational institutions. If vandalism becomes an issue, we can lock the page. Meanwhile, I think it is far better to feature a middle school than an endless series of anime characters and Transformers. --Petercorless 21:08, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
- Extremly strong keep User:Brianyoumans, you have listed all the FCPS middle schools and elementary schools for deletion today, all because of non-notability (link to elementary schools listed for AFD). Is there something about the school system that makes them non-notable? I am just curious because I am employed by the same school system. Here is my argument:
- Wikipedia:Notability#Notability_is_not_subjective and (citing guide to deletion here) "the fact that you haven't heard of something, or don't personally consider it worthy, are not criteria for deletion. You must look for, and demonstrate that you couldn't find, any independent sources of sufficient depth" KeepOnTruckin 22:29, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
- Delete See WP:SCHOOLS3.The schools appear to be referenced to their own website and the state education department. What is needed are multiple references that are to reliable and verifiable sources independent of the subject of the article, and which are not trivial or pro forma such as "school starts next week" or "classes cancelled because of snow." The school itself should be a primary subject of the story, in other words not "Teacher at X school dies in car wreck". In my own town, I could find a dozen articles talking about the founding of a school, controversies about the curriculum or the administration, articles about innovations, and articles about expansions to or safety hazards in the building. Based on AFDs, we have been more willing to keep articles on high schools than on elementary or middle school. Per WP:LOCAL is is appropriate to mention them in the article on the town or school system. Inkpaduta 22:45, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
- Keep. To begin with, I want to remind everyone that there is not policy of notability on schools. The requirement of stating some assertion of notability is mainly created on the fact that millions of articles that are commercially based or focused individual self-promotion would be littered all over wikipedia. I believe that if any article that is not advertising in this said manner is viable. In addition, as an additional requirement, I believe that articles should have some substance and according to policy, they should have some referenced material or at least list some legitimate sources. This article appears to have some information, and I am sure that in the future, individuals could work on and improve the article based on these sources. As always, we should not be excluded articles on wikipedia on just notability alone; self-promotion and commercial characteristics of articles with illegitimate sources should be the targets of deletion. This article appears to have some possibility for growth, and I believe that if until some templates for clean up and additional sources are added, and then if no progress is made on the article within a few months, then the article can be properly assessed. Also, lastly, I want to reemphasize the point addressed before, these articles are most likely a very good stepping stone for future contributions from otherwise, unlikely and hesitant contributors. --Thank You. Sukh17 Talk | Contribs 22:59, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
- Keep. as per Selket and KeepOnTruckin. --Vsion 08:18, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
- Delete. No obvious notability. I await a useful fork of Wikipedia ( that is, one without this kind of article ) with interest and expectation. WMMartin 17:53, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
- Oh, I mean delete All, of course. WMMartin 17:54, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
- a "useful fork of wikipedia"? If the articles on schools are not useful to you, fine, then don't read them. Other people (like myself) enjoy reading about schools, and it is much easier to locate information her then googleing for it. Also, the press use WP to find information, and FCPS being quite a notable school district, it recives a lot of press attention (cite washington post article on Clifton ES afd page) and press who come to WP to research=More attention to wikipedia by the world. KeepOnTruckin 18:48, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
- Delete All A big load of non-notable schoolcruft. Soltak | Talk 20:15, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
- delete all' of this particular batch. The information would be better combined, as most of the content consists o the specification of the school zones and the associated high schools. Beyond that, all of those talking about courses offer the usual courses, and all of those talking about the time they ring the bells to mark period changes do it in a customary way, and none of them have anything else to say.
If there should be anything else, it will fit in the merged article until there is time for true WP articles.
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- I have not the least objection to articles about schools at any level, if there is something notable to say in the article. I like local history when it's interesting, and many localities and local institutions could potentially be intersting. But it merely confuses the notability of the truly notable ones to have articles on each and every one. Let the notable ones set a standard, and the other may try to see if they can find something comparable. (None of these are yet at that standard). DGG 21:20, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
- I believe there was a breach of proper protocol in that case. First, you should mark the articles as unsourced. Then allow the authors/editors of the articles, say, a week in order to add citations and references as a proof of notability. ONLY ONCE some time has past in which the notability of the school can be proven or disproven should they be nominated for AfD. I think this entire swath of deletions was premature. It also causes editors to pay attention to defending their work rather than build on it. Stop this AfD movement and let people make better articles. --Petercorless 01:27, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
- Considering that none of these articles made any real claim to notability, I could have just tagged them all for speedy deletion, and depending on what admin looked at them, they might have all disappeared in a hour. Instead, I chose to bring them to an AFD and give everyone a chance to talk things over.--Brianyoumans 07:21, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
- Although most stated notability (an article that does not have a notability assertion is NOT a cuase for deletion), had you tagged them all for speedy deletion, I would have immediatley brought the matter to an admins attention. KeepOnTruckin 02:32, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
- I believe there was a breach of proper protocol in that case. First, you should mark the articles as unsourced. Then allow the authors/editors of the articles, say, a week in order to add citations and references as a proof of notability. ONLY ONCE some time has past in which the notability of the school can be proven or disproven should they be nominated for AfD. I think this entire swath of deletions was premature. It also causes editors to pay attention to defending their work rather than build on it. Stop this AfD movement and let people make better articles. --Petercorless 01:27, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
- I have not the least objection to articles about schools at any level, if there is something notable to say in the article. I like local history when it's interesting, and many localities and local institutions could potentially be intersting. But it merely confuses the notability of the truly notable ones to have articles on each and every one. Let the notable ones set a standard, and the other may try to see if they can find something comparable. (None of these are yet at that standard). DGG 21:20, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
- Delete All None of these seem to meet WP:NOTE or WP:SCHOOLS, per lack of independent reliable sources. Shimeru 17:41, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
- Doing a google search will likely bring up some references. In fact, heres a search already done with refs from only the Washington Post: here KeepOnTruckin 02:32, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
- Again, I think there is a bias on the part of those asking for unilateral deletion of entire school districts. Give the editors a chance to add notability. There are many articles on Wikipedia in far, far worse shape which are not candidates for deletion. These looked well-done to me, but simply lacked citation. --Petercorless 02:39, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
- The question is not whether an article is well-done, or even whether one can find reliable sources for the information. The question is, "Is the subject notable? Is it interesting in some way?" If the answer is, "This is a fine school (or library, or church, or street, or club), but one cannot really say anything about it that would interest someone not from the district", then I believe the answer is that we shouldn't have an article on it. There is nothing wrong with these articles as articles, they are simply about non-notable subjects. --Brianyoumans 03:34, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
- WP:SCHOOLS3 deals with how to determine notability, often via citation from independent media sources apart from the school or school district. Your personal interest in the subject is not germaine. --Petercorless 03:37, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
- It quite obviously is germaine; if I had thought these schools to be notable, we wouldn't be discussing deleting the articles. And more to the point, a number of random editors appear to agree with me. WP:SCHOOLS3 is only a proposal, by the way; it may well go the way of SCHOOLS 1 and 2. --Brianyoumans 03:50, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
- Regardless of the nuber of random editors who agree with you, whether or not an article gets deleted is not determined by the amount of votes. All schools are notable to me, and I am happy to read an article on any school on wikipedia, regardless of district. Brianyoumans, you have consitently stated that the reason you want these articles deleted is because they have no assertion of notability/they arent notable enough to be on wikipedia. Let me say this again, citing the guide to deletion (my apologies if I am making the same argument twice) "the fact that you haven't heard of something, or don't personally consider it worthy, are not criteria for deletion. You must look for, and demonstrate that you couldn't find, any independent sources of sufficient depth." "Lack of "notability" is not a criterion for deletion, because (among other reasons) this isn't specifically stated in the deletion policy; and since Wikipedia is not paper and has no size limits [except those of the server...not important here], there's no reason why Wikipedia shouldn't include "everything" that fits in with the other criteria, such as WP:Verifiability and no original research". If these schools are such a non-notable topic, then people wont search for them. They arent harming Wikipedia, but they are helping anyone who read them. In fact, if "we delete articles solely due to their obscurity, currently obscure, or seemingly obscure, subjects may gain more popular interest at a later date. In such a case, deleted articles will constitute a loss of valuable (and perhaps, in the transitory world of the internet, irreproducible) information." "Non-notable" is a non-NPOV designation, therefore not abiding by policy. The person who authored the article probably believes that the topic is notable enough to be included. "Writing 'Delete, non-notable' is not about whether the articles should be in Wikipedia, but rather that it is a quick phrase that does not tell everyone else why the article is non-notable". Brianyoumans, you need to prove that all these school articles aren't notable. --KeepOnTruckin 04:26, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
- This is becoming a "burden of proof" argument, which may be "unwinnable" if Brianyoumans refuses to accept any sources/citations offered. The articles are fine. Stop grinding axes. --Petercorless 05:46, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
- Project Name: Liberty Middle School - I just did an initial search, and the architecture of the school won it the award of a "Project of Distinction" by CEFPI. Added that to the article. --Petercorless 06:00, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
- If you look more closely at the CEFPI site, the 2005 winners are listed here. Liberty's design was entered into the competition, but didn't win. Brianyoumans 06:21, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
- No, on the page peter brought us, it definatly says "award type". FCPS is closed tomorrow due to snow but I will check into it on Friday. Coincidentally I actually have to go to Liberty MS to adjust some lights there. KeepOnTruckin 06:27, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
- I think I took a close enough look at the CEFPI site to be able to say; there is a page of award winners, and a page of "entrants" - and Liberty is listed under "entrants" and NOT under "winners". The "award type" I think is just the category that it was nominated in. Also, if you go to the Samaha Associates site, their design for Auburn Middle School is mentioned as having won a CEFPI award - and Liberty isn't. (Go to their middle school page, click on the arrows in the picture to advance through the projects.) Rachel Carson Middle School won an award from the Virginia School Board Association, which should be added to its article. Minor, but a point in its favor. --Brianyoumans 06:34, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
- No, on the page peter brought us, it definatly says "award type". FCPS is closed tomorrow due to snow but I will check into it on Friday. Coincidentally I actually have to go to Liberty MS to adjust some lights there. KeepOnTruckin 06:27, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
- If you look more closely at the CEFPI site, the 2005 winners are listed here. Liberty's design was entered into the competition, but didn't win. Brianyoumans 06:21, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
- Project Name: Liberty Middle School - I just did an initial search, and the architecture of the school won it the award of a "Project of Distinction" by CEFPI. Added that to the article. --Petercorless 06:00, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
- This is becoming a "burden of proof" argument, which may be "unwinnable" if Brianyoumans refuses to accept any sources/citations offered. The articles are fine. Stop grinding axes. --Petercorless 05:46, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
- WP:SCHOOLS3 deals with how to determine notability, often via citation from independent media sources apart from the school or school district. Your personal interest in the subject is not germaine. --Petercorless 03:37, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
- The question is not whether an article is well-done, or even whether one can find reliable sources for the information. The question is, "Is the subject notable? Is it interesting in some way?" If the answer is, "This is a fine school (or library, or church, or street, or club), but one cannot really say anything about it that would interest someone not from the district", then I believe the answer is that we shouldn't have an article on it. There is nothing wrong with these articles as articles, they are simply about non-notable subjects. --Brianyoumans 03:34, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
- Again, I think there is a bias on the part of those asking for unilateral deletion of entire school districts. Give the editors a chance to add notability. There are many articles on Wikipedia in far, far worse shape which are not candidates for deletion. These looked well-done to me, but simply lacked citation. --Petercorless 02:39, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
- Keep. First of all, I was slightly offended when - upon googling my school name - I found that there was not a Wikipedia page. I created a page for Rocky Run Middle School using verified information from the school website. Since then, it has been added onto by others, which only proves that the site is useful and used. My younger sister will be attending RRMS next year and she and her friends find the information useful. I believe this article has as good a reason as any to stay. By the way, Rocky Run's Jamie Sawatzky won Virginia History Teahcer of the Year in 2006 and the school has won numerous other awards. It is a great school and this information should be out there for people to see. --Thank You. Elesi Talk | Contribs 22:59, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
- Delete as not notable — MrDolomite • Talk 18:46, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
